Since it seems slow I'll stir up some conversation: 6XC vs 6.5 Creed

spife7980

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I snagged a rem 700 at a decent price so I've got a new decision to make. I think I'm going to go remage and do it all myself and everyone seems to have a glowing opinion of criterion so I'm limiting myself to options they have. I have just invested in a giraud trimmer so that's another limitation in what she'll holders they provide. I also suspect that the new actions bolt will be for a large rifle primer so that rules out the obvious answer of 6 dasher. And then I want to avoid the x47s because they have a smaller flashhole and I don't care to have to turn down decapping pins even though that's only a minor inconvenience. 260 is a good option but I like the extra headroom that the creed offers in the mag length restrictions and with both being so close that's enough to push me.

Soooo my decision is narrowed down 6xc and 6.5 creed. Both have Norma brass that's of good quality from what I've gathered,and they are large rifle primers as opposed to the creed lapua brass which is small. Both offer good barrel life with cooler slower powders. I'd be going 24" stainless barrel for a full burn but still remaining manuverable with my can.

I know that the 6xc will be faster and flatter and the 6.5cm will buck the wind better and offer more splash and I don't see myself going past 1200 ever. I guess I know the pros and cons of each so I suppose it will come down to what y'all convince me to go with. So let's get some arguments going to break in this old site proper.
 
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Clocked92

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I'm kind of trying to decide between these two as well. A couple things pushing me towards the Creedmoor is Factory ammo availability and the ability to load 140gr bullets in the event I want to take it deer hunting in the future. Yes you can take deer with 6mm bullets, I just feel more comfortable taking a big mule deer with a 140gr bullet than the smaller 6mm's.
 

spife7980

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Neither of those have a serious sway over me. For deer I have my 06 and I'm doing this primarily so I can fiddle around with reloading some more so the factory option isn't appealing (especially not at over a buck a shot). Converting lapua 6br to dasher was looking like a fun project but not if I can't use the ability on a large firing pin. Not to mention the added cost of mandrels and dies and turning necks etc. Fun(!) but more than I really want to invest into a caliber that I might tire of after forming 300 rounds of brass. I'd go 140 for the bc unless I found a deal too good to pass up on 130s, the long 140s are what pushed me away from the 260 and potential mag length issues. With the xc I would be going for 105s
 

morganlamprecht

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do you want slightly less recoil with less splash or slightly more recoil with more splash...neither one is gunna make a big difference in performance
you dont have a large firing pin unless you have an older AI...itll probably still crater from the sloppy remington fit, but most of them do any ways...$90 and a short trip to Gretan will fix it
 
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Dirty D

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I'm kind of trying to decide between these two as well. A couple things pushing me towards the Creedmoor is Factory ammo availability and the ability to load 140gr bullets in the event I want to take it deer hunting in the future. Yes you can take deer with 6mm bullets, I just feel more comfortable taking a big mule deer with a 140gr bullet than the smaller 6mm's.
The XC lags the .243 by not very much in the muzzle velocity dept. and my .243 makes golf ball sized exit holes in white tails, I shoot .243 and 6.5CM and my next barrel will be a Criterion 6XC.
 
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Jimmy31593

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I would consider this a 6 vs 6.5 thread. If you were comparing apples to apples you should be comparing the 6xc and 6 creedmoor.

6...
shorter barrel life
less recoil
better ballistics (drop, wind)

6.5...
longer barrel life
arguably better big game hunting
bigger splash
more recoil
 
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spife7980

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If you were comparing apples to apples you should be comparing the 6xc and 6 creedmoor.
But Im not, its clearly in the title that its a "6xc vs a 6.5 Creed"

Im wanting people to give me reasons to rule out cartridges like I did for all of the others. Maybe the xc doesnt play well in aics mags or maybe the creed doesnt like the redding seating stems. It so close and so much of a toss up between the two that on a given day the conditions could favor one or the other.
Maybe XC brass is super scarce and the online inventories Im seeing arent correct and it would be hard to source.

And 6 creed brass is only hornady (which is crap IMO and we'll leave it at that) and if I were to convert to it I would want to go with the 6 creed lapua but thats small primer so its out.
 

lte82

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    Converting lapua 6br to dasher was looking like a fun project but not if I can't use the ability on a large firing pin. Not to mention the added cost of mandrels and dies and turning necks etc. Fun(!) but more than I really want to invest into a caliber that I might tire of after forming 300 rounds of brass.
    You can now buy dasher brass straight from Norma (bullets.com has them) so you don't have to fire form much less turn necks.

    Also look at Alpha Munitions brass for 6.5 creedmoor. Lapua or better quality, but large primer.
     

    Jimmy31593

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    Both will feed fine. No advantages there. Brass availability and factory ammo availability both go to the creedmoor. But it isn't hard to find xc brass. Really your main differences are do you want a 6mm at 3100fps or a 6.5 at 2800fps. The dtac 115 in the xc is a great combo but the availability for dtacs has sucked since the release of the new bullet design.

    Can form 6.5 creedmoor norma brass into 6 creedmoor as well.
     

    spife7980

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    Ive heard bad generalities about the norma dasher brass but the criterion reamer is for lapua which would mean even more work to get the norma to work with less than satisfactory results when compared to just making the lapua 6 br work from my limited understanding. Trust me, Ive tried to reason the dasher as being a good decision but so far everything is stacked against it from what I can tell which regulates me to the xc. Maybe on my next build with a custom action and tight pin hole but for this ptg 400 special I dont think Ill be that lucky. Who knows, maybe it will show up exactly like I wish it would.

    Heres an XC cartridge diagram [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"575","width":"716","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/ZUPgqwA.jpg"}[/IMG2]





    Heres a 6 creed chamber print, I cant find a cartridge diagram anywhere some some interprolation will be necessary to see the actual dimensions of the brass. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"544","width":"816","src":"http:\/\/i755.photobucket.com\/albums\/xx198\/siulc\/Mobile%20Uploads\/image-1.jpg"}[/IMG2]





    Liike like the main difference is the XC has a 30 degree shoulder as well as the 6 creed and the creed has a touch more internal volume.

    What about the 6 creed makes people seem to be pushing for it over the xc?
     
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    BangBangBlatBlat

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    Since you have to ask the question, 6.5 Creedmoor is better for you. It is much more versatile than the 6XC. Since you don't seem to be looking for the last little bit of performance for a match rifle, the 6XC probably is not for you. The 6mm serve a very specific purpose of being as little recoil as possible in a usable long distance caliber. It does not have the factory available options, or nearly the versatility of the 6.5mm calibers.

    Basically, people that want 6mm's already know that they want 6mm's.
     

    Niles Coyote

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    I have two 6xc's, the first is a 21" benchmark barrel and the second is a 25" Criterion Remage. Unfortunately I cant give you any reports on the Criterion as I have not shot it much other than to make sure it was a good barrel when I first bought it. The benchmark was/is a great barrel and still holds my personal best 1000 yard group. I used it for a year shooting local prs style matches and range fun and enjoy that cartridge immensely. It is very easy to throw just about any powder charge under a 95-105 bullet and have it shoot bugholes. I ended up depending on my magnetospeed to choose the load I went with because every thing shot so well. If the cartridge has a down side it would be barrel life. My bench mark barrel has somewhere around 1300 rounds on it (providing the first owner was truthfull with round count) and somewhere around the 1150 mark I lost 100fps after deep cleaning it. It still shoots well but I suspect its time is limited. And I am sure I am to blame because I have never babied it and ran 105 hybrids as fast as it could without obvious pressure signs on the fired cases. I still use the same 150 Norma cases I started with (50 of those getting the most use as the other 100 were used only for couple matches) and the brass has held up well. Single digit SD's are the norm with single digit ES more normal than not while working up loads.

    Then I got side tracked on the 6.5 calibers (260, 47L and Creedmoor) and for the last two years have been doing well with the Creedmoor in both a bolt and auto. While the Creedmoor isnt as easy to load as the XC, it also isn't hard to find a good load and now that Lapua is making brass for it, I dont see myself going anywhere else any time soon. It just works... And like Clocked, I am a duel purpose shooter and while I have taken a mule deer down with the 6xc at 400 yards I'd rather have the extra power the 140 offers in the field, hunting or wacking steel at distance in matches. My bolt rifle creedmoor has very near or just over 1600 rounds on it with no real signs of slowing down yet.


     

    morganlamprecht

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    thats a 284 Win print...

    6/6.5 creed cartridges have a 30 degree shoulder...youre confused about a lot of this...good luck
     

    spife7980

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    thats a 284 Win print...

    6/6.5 creed cartridges have a 30 degree shoulder...youre confused about a lot of this...good luck
    Youre, right. In my google image search trying to source one it popped up and said 6mm creed in the description but In looking at the actual print it did say 284, Ive repaired it. Ive been going back and forth and theres no one spot with all of the info right there easy to compare that I can find.

    If the cartridge has a down side it would be barrel life. My bench mark barrel has somewhere around 1300 rounds on it (providing the first owner was truthfull with round count) and somewhere around the 1150 mark I lost 100fps after deep cleaning it.
    What powders have you used (though the prior owner makes this less than certain)? Part of what swayed me towards the 6XC is reports of H1000 being able to go over 2k rounds before the barrel wears out. Which I suppose could probably be said for the 6creed as well since they are so close...

    The 6.5 Creeds barrel life is really the only reason Im not sold 100% on going with the 6mm stuff. However its a remage so Im not so concerned that I am swearing off the 6 as barrels are a disposable commodity and at 400 bucks a pop and having a new one in the mail a couple days later it isnt so daunting.
     
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    Niles Coyote

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    What powders have you used (though the prior owner makes this less than certain)? Part of what swayed me towards the 6XC is reports of H1000 being able to go over 2k rounds before the barrel wears out. Which I suppose could probably be said for the 6creed as well since they are so close...

    The 6.5 Creeds barrel life is really the only reason Im not sold 100% on going with the 6mm stuff. However its a remage so Im not so concerned that I am swearing off the 6 as barrels are a disposable commodity and at 400 bucks a pop and having a new one in the mail a couple days later it isnt so daunting.
    I used Varget with 95's, but I didnt shoot much more than a 100 or so 95's. With 105's I ran a steady diet of H4350. I doubt you could fit enough H1000 in a case to get anywhere close to the velocity H4350 will run. I did try H4831sc at compressed levels and found it to be slower that H4350 with 105's. RL-16 may be worth a look though... but long term barrel wear has yet to be determined. If you do get interested in a remage 6xc and dont mind a second hand barrel. I might be able to help you out on a barrel and new brass.
     

    AMAC79

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    Those are the two calibers I run on my AT. I have had good luck with both. Just as Niles said, the 6XC shot everything well in load development. I mainly shoot H4350 but I have had good luck with H4831 pushing DTACs around 2990. One thing I really like about the 6.5 Creed is the consistency throughout barrel life. On my old 6.5 barrel I have ~2475 rounds on it and I am still shooting the same load I developed when it was new. It has only lost 40fps and still shoots great, but I know it's time is near. I will say the XC has not been as finicky as some of the other 6mms I have had. I've only got 700 rounds on my XC barrel, but I haven't lost any velocity with my 105 RDF load and I am only seeing minimal throat erosion. Both great choices.
     

    spife7980

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    Thats another thing, I would probably like to stay away from H4350 just due to its scarcity if possible. I wish in the PRB test they would have taken another level of readings at 105 degrees rather than going straight from 65 to 140. Even in Texas I dont think that my ammo would get that hot unless I left it in a closed up car in the sun.

    The H4350 is obviously the winner in broad temp stability but I can go in anywhere and grab a jug of IMR 4166 off the shelf.
    ...........Cold to middle ........Middle to Hot
    H4350....... 18 fps ..................7 fps
    IMR4166 ...21 fps .................31 fps
    Difference ..3 fps ..................24 fps [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/06\/Average-Muzzle-Velocity-H4350-Varget-IMR-4451-IMR-4166.png"}[/IMG2]



    I wonder if at 105 degrees instead of 140 the 4166 would have a smaller more acceptable difference like it does going from 25 to 65.
     

    AMAC79

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    A buddy of mine is running 4166 in his 22" 6XC with great results. He's pushing 105 hybrids right around 3000 (suppressed). I've never heard him mention any issues with temp stability and we shoot a lot of days with 30 degree swings.
     

    pinhead

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    That's a hard choice. I have both the 6.5 Creed and the 6xc barrels in my DTA. They both shoot great and are easy to load for, but I'd give the nod to the xc if I had to choose. You can buy DTAC loaded 6xc ammo from David Tubb if you want, and it runs about $40/20 rds, and you have Prime for the 6.5 at around $26/20 until you have enough brass.
    I haven't had issues finding 6xc brass, and I know in the past when it was scarce people were fire forming 22-250 as a stop gap.
    Also I think Clownbuster is looking at making Lapua 6xc brass.
    I use H4350 in both: 39.5 gr with the DTAC and 42 gr with a 142 SMK. Haven't tried anything else because it works so well and I still have some left. I haven't tried 4166 with the 6xc but did with my 260 with great results.


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    LawnMM

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    Performance in the wind is a wash with the right bullet. Do you want a little better performance or a little better energy on target is the question of the day.
     

    Senderofan

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    Ive heard bad generalities about the norma dasher brass but the criterion reamer is for lapua which would mean even more work to get the norma to work with less than satisfactory results when compared to just making the lapua 6 br work from my limited understanding. Trust me, Ive tried to reason the dasher as being a good decision but so far everything is stacked against it from what I can tell which regulates me to the xc.

    I would also recommend considering the 6 Dasher. Built one a few years back......had a friend that built a 6 XC at the same time. He is now running a 6 Dasher. My pet load is pushing 105 gr. VLD's at just under 3100 fps ( 28 inch barrel ) and there is minimal recoil. I think you'd easily be able to witness your own hits.....be very accurate out to 1K at least.....and burn less powder doing it. I fire form my brass using a false shoulder method .....great article describing the technique... ( http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html ).

    With a middle of the road 6BR load.....it is still extremely accurate. Forming the brass this way isn't hard and I've not yet had any rejects. It's a really amazing little round.
     

    BgBmBoo

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    Having owned a 6.5CM, 6.5x47, and now on my third 6XC...I recommend the XC. As stated above, the XC is VERY easy to load for. I shoot 107 SMK's, just because I have a bunch of them.

    Never had an issue feeding from AICS mags.

    Both have have their pluses and minuses. It is going to come down to what worked for YOU.

    Good luck.
     

    pizfiz

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    I went from 6.5cm to 6xc last fall and have one match under my belt with it. To find a load was simple. To find the brass was simple, to stay on target was simple. Only downfall is identifying hits past 800. Hits on steel and dirt were much easier with the 140's compared to 105's. I also didn't trust the 105's in higher winds when shooting near 1000. Thankfully, most stages are under 800 in the events I've entered, so the XC is perfect.
     

    scudzuki

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    I thought 6 Dasher brass was made from fire forming 6XC brass. If there's large primer 6XC brass available from Norma, couldn't one start with that and fire form it to 6 Dasher with large primer? That would eliminate the need for me to convert my AIAX bolt to small firing pin.
     

    spife7980

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    The existing Norma brass thing does make me consider necking down 6.5 creed to 6 creed though. I just recently went to the prb hoping to see what this years top shooters were favoring and though they didn't have it up yet I looked at last years and didn't remember so many 6 creed users there were. I thought xc had like 15 but there was only 1 and the 6 creed users were the larger group. Necking down 6.5 to 6 creed keeps it large primer just like the xc. With a little extra volume and I suppose an inversely quicker barrel swap.
     

    steve123

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    Firing small rifle primer cases in unbushed bolts results in unsightly looking primers but it's not really a hindrance in performance. I shot 6x47l in a M700 custom for years and on the 3rd barrel got my bolt bushed at Gretan. Yes the primers were normal looking again but that was all.

    YMMV but necking from 6xc to 6dasher would be a royal pain to me and something I wouldn't consider and I like wildcats. Besides it might be that the small rifle primer helps make the 6br case so good and I would think the case not lasting as long.

    It's all exciting when the barrel is new but 6mm's can be annoying. I'm a little miffed right now because my 6 is already slowing down with approx 1000 rounds through it. I don't have another barrel ready at the moment so it's time to start adding powder and make some quick decisions myself. That's one of the things I like about the Dasher - 2000 good rounds is doable.
     
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    spife7980

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    I spoke too soon about the PRB not having this years as it just came out yesterday http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/0...-the-pros-use/
    The creeds are still popular but the XC jumped up big again. I think that might very well seal the decision for me as its popularity didnt fall further like it had for years prior and its a non preprocessing of brass. Call me a sheeple but I figure the people surveyed are those that might have very good reasons for doing so.


    [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/Most-Popular-Long-Range-Rifle-Cartridge.png"}[/IMG2]
     

    awp762

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    It is time to get another barrel spun up for my 6 XC so i debated doing a 6.5CM versus another 6XC. I ended up going with the 6XC again. I can't see where the additional energy on target will help me. I've been running the 6mm XC since November 2010 & didn't see a reason to change.