Theres something exactly in this spec, ELEY force. Works awesome for me past 200. i've had groups as small as .43 MOA at 200 yards. dunno if you've tried it or not, if not its worth a shot.
- Thread starter stevenc23
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yup, eley force is my go to for matches. also looking to try eley contact which is 42gr as well. just haven't had the time yet.
i'm not crazy familiar with contact but its significantly lower velocity than force isn't it? I got lucky in my set up (ruger precision rimfire, er shaw 20 inch barrel, diamondback tactical) that i don't run out of dope in the scope until a little after 400 yards.
I've also had a lot of cold bore shots drop low. Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I did cringe when I saw you are using the 15rnd mag. I'd repeat the same test for accuracy using a PITA sled. I'll see if I can grab a box of this soon. Thanks for testing!!
mine always has an awful few shots from cold bore also! big time. does the 15 round mag suck for accuracy or something? seems ok for me.
A couple weeks ago I was at the range getting ready for a rimfire event, and did some chrono work on several types of ammo (some match, some not) including SK LR.
Temp: 50F
Wind: 15-20 at 180deg
Elevation: 800
Rifle: CZ455 American (16")
10 shots of each over a Magnetospeed
SK Long Range
1085/1109/1096/7.8 (Min/Max/Avg/SD)
Eley Tenex
1105/1121/1113 /5.7
Eley Force
1190/1238/1221/13.6
Eley Contact
1082/1128/1099/11.6
Eley HVHP
1179/1235/1207/17.1
Aguila Super Extra
1093/1129/1110/10.3
I paid $11/box last year for two bricks of Tenex, and I've been using that for competition. But now I cant find it less than $17/box, and I only have a couple boxes left. I just got two bricks of SK LR from Natchez for about $8.70/box, so I'll be shooting that this year.
I talked to the Lapua rep at the competition last month, and he said that the LR is the best lots of their Match product.
Oh, and the SK Round Nose 40g bullets have a G1 BC of .172
I hope this info is useful.
Temp: 50F
Wind: 15-20 at 180deg
Elevation: 800
Rifle: CZ455 American (16")
10 shots of each over a Magnetospeed
SK Long Range
1085/1109/1096/7.8 (Min/Max/Avg/SD)
Eley Tenex
1105/1121/1113 /5.7
Eley Force
1190/1238/1221/13.6
Eley Contact
1082/1128/1099/11.6
Eley HVHP
1179/1235/1207/17.1
Aguila Super Extra
1093/1129/1110/10.3
I paid $11/box last year for two bricks of Tenex, and I've been using that for competition. But now I cant find it less than $17/box, and I only have a couple boxes left. I just got two bricks of SK LR from Natchez for about $8.70/box, so I'll be shooting that this year.
I talked to the Lapua rep at the competition last month, and he said that the LR is the best lots of their Match product.
Oh, and the SK Round Nose 40g bullets have a G1 BC of .172
I hope this info is useful.
I wouldn't trust that Lapua rep. According to SK specs the Rifle Match has a muzzle velocity of 1073 and Long Range Match has a muzzle velocity of 1106.
I concur with billmeek's numbers for the velocities of these two grades of ammo, based on chronographing both of them out of several rifles, and my avg vels for both are very close to what Lapua & SK show. Also, I just downloaded AB's new G1 BCs for several brands & grades of 22RF ammo, and none of the SK or Lapua had a BC that high.
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Rated MV is based on the factory test barrels.
No guarantee your rifle will produce similar numbers.
Not just because of different barrel, chamber dimensions
but also due to variations in the production of the cartridges.
What comes off the line this hour
won't be the same the next.
It's rimfire.
No guarantee your rifle will produce similar numbers.
Not just because of different barrel, chamber dimensions
but also due to variations in the production of the cartridges.
What comes off the line this hour
won't be the same the next.
It's rimfire.
A fair point. He repeated the statement several times. I was under the impression it was Match, but I see Biathalon is the same speed, so maybe that’s it? Either way...
As to the BC, that’s what SK lists for their round nose bullets. The flat nose BC is .139.
Yea, from all the threads I've read about it they all basically say the same thing. You're one of the first people I've seen to actually test it at "long range." Almost ordered a box to try today but decided to just stick with Eley Force. Thanks for the info.
Did you have more than one lot of the LR Match to shoot? If you read my post #50 in this thread, you'd know that I had 5 lots of this ammo, and that the first four lots were kind of poor when it comes to ES/SD, with poor groups at 100yds. It was only after firing the 5th and final lot that I had that I got decent results, with ES/SD of 12/3 out of a 22" Barlein, and 14/5 out of a 22" Krieger, both bbls on V-22 actions. I didn't shoot a 50rd group at 210yds, but have shot several 10rd strings that produced groups of 2"-2.5" at the same distance. I bought a case of that good lot, but haven't been able to reproduce the excellent results I had with the lot sample. Not to say that it doesn't shoot pretty good, just not as good as it did that first day. Still not sorry that I bought a full case of it - it's measurably better than the best lot of SK Rifle Match I've found, and runs from 'slightly better than' to 'at least as good as' the lot of Lapua Center-X that I bought after testing at the Lapua Test Center this past winter.
As with any type of rimfire ammo, the quality of the batch
is more important than the brand or label.
I bought two boxes of the SKLR on line, to see what would happen.
No surprise that what I bought for 8 bucks a box
was a midgrade 22lr, not match grade sub 40 fps ES.
Lot testing before purchasing is the only way to tilt the rimfire lottery to your favor.
Even then, there are no guarantees. It's rimfire.
is more important than the brand or label.
I bought two boxes of the SKLR on line, to see what would happen.
No surprise that what I bought for 8 bucks a box
was a midgrade 22lr, not match grade sub 40 fps ES.
Lot testing before purchasing is the only way to tilt the rimfire lottery to your favor.
Even then, there are no guarantees. It's rimfire.
Firing 50 rounds in one group at 200 yds or any distance, would not tell my anything IMO. I would not know how the wind is effecting the groups. The time it takes to fire 50 rounds, the conditions could change 10 times. wind that you can not feel can open a group at 200 yds. in my testing of this ammo, I used 3 guns and 200+ round, at 50yds to 150yds. I shot around 40 5 shot groups. I did not check speed for ES. I tested Vertical, at 150yds I was getting very little vertical. It was windy the day I shot, I was getting some horz. movement due to wind. I have seen reports of lot to lot differences, as is all lots of 22LR ammo. Sounds like you got one of the bad ones. I think I gave this ammo the best run I could have. I just need to find more of this lot.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/sk-long-range-ammo-range-report.6935710/
for the 50yds groups. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/sk-long-range-ammo-range-report.3975852/
Mark
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Mark, tailwind at 4 to 8 mph...turbulence all the way to the target.
Wind flags showed left-right-up-down depending where the vortex was at that moment.
Doesn't matter, with an ES of 80 fps, that isn't even close to useful 22lr for attempting sub 2 moa at 200 yards.
1 fps difference in mv of a subsonic 40 grain 22lr produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread at 200 yards.
80 fps difference means 8 inches of vertical even before wind affects the trajectories.
The box reads Long Range Match, and from my experience, any rimfire product labeled "match" isn't.
Wind flags showed left-right-up-down depending where the vortex was at that moment.
Doesn't matter, with an ES of 80 fps, that isn't even close to useful 22lr for attempting sub 2 moa at 200 yards.
1 fps difference in mv of a subsonic 40 grain 22lr produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread at 200 yards.
80 fps difference means 8 inches of vertical even before wind affects the trajectories.
The box reads Long Range Match, and from my experience, any rimfire product labeled "match" isn't.
50 shots in one group at 200 yards doesn't tell me anything.
Had to think about that one for a while.
Kind of confused me as to why the results aren't informative?
50 cartridges in a box.
Sooner or later I'm going to shoot all of them.
At 200 yards, even 1 or 2 shots at a time,
wind is going to affect results no matter what I do.
No indoor 200 yard ranges that I have access to.
So 50 shots spread over 30 minutes will give me
a very useful example of what to expect from this ammo.
Chronograph records MV's and acts as a check for vertical spread
and ammo quality. 2 boxes, 100 shots is even better.
Right?
I'm not interested in random acts of accuracy,
I want to know, good or bad, what the ammo can do,
outdoors, for all 50 shots, not just 5 or 10.
That's useful information.
Had to think about that one for a while.
Kind of confused me as to why the results aren't informative?
50 cartridges in a box.
Sooner or later I'm going to shoot all of them.
At 200 yards, even 1 or 2 shots at a time,
wind is going to affect results no matter what I do.
No indoor 200 yard ranges that I have access to.
So 50 shots spread over 30 minutes will give me
a very useful example of what to expect from this ammo.
Chronograph records MV's and acts as a check for vertical spread
and ammo quality. 2 boxes, 100 shots is even better.
Right?
I'm not interested in random acts of accuracy,
I want to know, good or bad, what the ammo can do,
outdoors, for all 50 shots, not just 5 or 10.
That's useful information.
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Did you know you can predict results at lesser distances
based on the results produced with rimfire at 200 yards?
I tracked target results at 50, 100 and 200 yards with 17hmr, 22wmr and 22lr.
Interesting correlation shows up. I call it the half-third rule.
Half the distance produces a third of the spread.
Suppose you produce a 9 inch group with CCI Stingers at 200 yards.
At 100 yards you'd get a 3 inch group under the same conditions.
At 50 yards expect a 1 inch group and at 25 yards 0.3 inch group.
Shoot a 6 inch group at 200, expect 2 inches at 100, 0.7 inch at 50, 0.2 inch at 25 yards.
With match quality ammo I get 4.5 inch 50 shot groups at 200 yards.
At 100 yards I'd expect 1.5 inches for 50 shots and 0.5 inches at 50 yards.
Guess what? 0.5 inches at 50 yards for 50 shots is just a touch worse
than the best results recorded at the Eley and Lapua Test facilities.
Those results are computer generated 40 shot aggregates.
So shooting large sample groups at 200 yards does have benefits
besides removing the boredom factor from shooting at 50 and 100 yards.
here's 10 at 200 with SKLRM
3.8 inches at 200, 1.3 inches at 100, 0.45 inches at 50 yards for 10 shots.
The other 4 targets reeked.
based on the results produced with rimfire at 200 yards?
I tracked target results at 50, 100 and 200 yards with 17hmr, 22wmr and 22lr.
Interesting correlation shows up. I call it the half-third rule.
Half the distance produces a third of the spread.
Suppose you produce a 9 inch group with CCI Stingers at 200 yards.
At 100 yards you'd get a 3 inch group under the same conditions.
At 50 yards expect a 1 inch group and at 25 yards 0.3 inch group.
Shoot a 6 inch group at 200, expect 2 inches at 100, 0.7 inch at 50, 0.2 inch at 25 yards.
With match quality ammo I get 4.5 inch 50 shot groups at 200 yards.
At 100 yards I'd expect 1.5 inches for 50 shots and 0.5 inches at 50 yards.
Guess what? 0.5 inches at 50 yards for 50 shots is just a touch worse
than the best results recorded at the Eley and Lapua Test facilities.
Those results are computer generated 40 shot aggregates.
So shooting large sample groups at 200 yards does have benefits
besides removing the boredom factor from shooting at 50 and 100 yards.
here's 10 at 200 with SKLRM
3.8 inches at 200, 1.3 inches at 100, 0.45 inches at 50 yards for 10 shots.
The other 4 targets reeked.
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I not saying what you do is not useful, just not for me. I can see this for vertical spread. How can you tell the difference, from wind or just the grouping. Are you holding for the wind change, or are holding the same aim point thru the 50 rounds? If you are changing hold point, you testing how good, YOU are shooting. For me, I like many 5 shot groups and get an AGG. for that ammo. That keeps the good and the bad groups. My background is long range Benchrest 600 yds and 1000yds centerfire. You need to hit the center of the target for scope and shot a group at the same time. I shoot long range rimfire steel, I need to hit that steel, under that condition at that time. in rimfire you will have round that drop out or go high, you test will show how many fallout and go high. I don't need 50 round groups to see that.
Mark
Mark
Mark, the 50 at 200 project is holding a single aimpoint.
All I care about is chrony numbers and ammo quality.
Wind flags are used to try to minimize drift.
The 10-200 targets are shooting for score.
Hold off is necessary if you want anything above a 50.
Ammo quality and wind kick my adze.
All I care about is chrony numbers and ammo quality.
Wind flags are used to try to minimize drift.
The 10-200 targets are shooting for score.
Hold off is necessary if you want anything above a 50.
Ammo quality and wind kick my adze.
Didn't you state in the past that you could match a low shot on paper with a lower velocity and likewise a faster velocity with higher impact at 200Y?
If so that pretty much proves your point that it's the consistency of the ammo vs the wind influencing vertical. If the wind is only a 1-4 MPH difference then the vertical being affected by wind won't be distinguishable.
Like I mentioned in that other thread, this SKLR is just a marketing strategy to sell more ammo to the NRL/PRS crowd, it offers nothing compared to any other 40 grain bullet.
They probably said to themselves, hey we have these odd lot's that are slightly faster than standard SK, we'll make up some new labeling and sell em as SKLR, oh boy!
I've shot quite a bit this spring down an old concrete feedlot alley that's 210yds long. The concrete feedbunks on both sides of the alley reflect the sound back at me to a far greater degree than shooting out in the open would, and I've had no problem correlating the report of each shot with what I see on both the chrono screen & the steel target 210yds away. It's very evident how much vertical dispersion ammo with 50+fps ES will produce on steel at that distance - quite often it's at least 10".
As far as SK LR Match ammo goes, based on how the first four lots of it that I shot performed, I can see why shooters would be skeptical. But, I've shot a lot of various grades of SK over the chronograph in the past, and had never seen anything as fast as the LR Match is on average, nor had I seen anything with ES & SD numbers as good as the fifth lot of it had. Whatever - I'll take $7.50/box ammo that can produce 2" 10-shot groups at 210yds any day over any of the other pricier stuff I've tried. Will buy more lot samples & do testing when the next shipment of LR Match arrives - then I'll have a better idea of just how good (or bad) this stuff really is.
As far as SK LR Match ammo goes, based on how the first four lots of it that I shot performed, I can see why shooters would be skeptical. But, I've shot a lot of various grades of SK over the chronograph in the past, and had never seen anything as fast as the LR Match is on average, nor had I seen anything with ES & SD numbers as good as the fifth lot of it had. Whatever - I'll take $7.50/box ammo that can produce 2" 10-shot groups at 210yds any day over any of the other pricier stuff I've tried. Will buy more lot samples & do testing when the next shipment of LR Match arrives - then I'll have a better idea of just how good (or bad) this stuff really is.
you could match a low shot on paper with a lower velocity
and likewise a faster velocity with higher impact
That's true Steve. Very easy to track high and low strays by muzzle velocity.
Only time there's a problem is with vertical turbulence (headwinds/tailwinds)
or cartridge defects that spin off at unpredictable trajectories.
Apply a ballistic calculator to the chrony numbers and you can predict what the vertical spread should be.
When the numbers don't match the vertical, I start looking at my setup or myself
in order to figure out why. Usually it's me misreading or miss timing the wind flags.
SKLRM and SK Biathlon are both rated 1106 fps.
I ordered another brick of the Biathlon for use in the 10-200 for score.
See if the results are as good as the first boxes.
and likewise a faster velocity with higher impact
That's true Steve. Very easy to track high and low strays by muzzle velocity.
Only time there's a problem is with vertical turbulence (headwinds/tailwinds)
or cartridge defects that spin off at unpredictable trajectories.
Apply a ballistic calculator to the chrony numbers and you can predict what the vertical spread should be.
When the numbers don't match the vertical, I start looking at my setup or myself
in order to figure out why. Usually it's me misreading or miss timing the wind flags.
SKLRM and SK Biathlon are both rated 1106 fps.
I ordered another brick of the Biathlon for use in the 10-200 for score.
See if the results are as good as the first boxes.
SKLRM looks more or less like they have same charge as Biathlon ammo with the same bullet as SKRM .
I hoped they will go for a heavier 47grain bullet like they had in the old Scoremax to boost the BC for 'Long Range' .at preset i would use .132-.135 not the fantasy BC lapua gives .
Any news on the custom BC numbers Aplied Balistics came up with .
I tested some in my Anschutz 64MPR in Shonebeck factory range , groups similar to SK Rifle Match ,and about 30% larger groups than Lapua Midas + ,but of course Midas+ also costs 2x SK Long Range Match.
I hoped they will go for a heavier 47grain bullet like they had in the old Scoremax to boost the BC for 'Long Range' .at preset i would use .132-.135 not the fantasy BC lapua gives .
Any news on the custom BC numbers Aplied Balistics came up with .
I tested some in my Anschutz 64MPR in Shonebeck factory range , groups similar to SK Rifle Match ,and about 30% larger groups than Lapua Midas + ,but of course Midas+ also costs 2x SK Long Range Match.
This is a sticky wicket with rimfire with much discussion on multiple sites. It seems a perfect tune on the barrel/chamber will allow excellent accuracy at a given range across say a 40 FPS ES. Some say the tune isn’t right if the barrel won’t “wait for you”, ie still hold poi if left to cool off. Some condensation as it cools may produce the speed change. Tuning with 2 speeds of ammo at given distance to achieve the same poi is similar. Workable if you have positive compensation. As a practical matter, if barrel cools for one minute, burn a round or quickly drag one dry patch
I've heard a few theories in this for sure. The one that almost sounds the most credible is actually cold vs hot air. Meaning, an unfired barrel has normal ambient temp air in the chamber through the muzzle while a fired barrel has hotter air with other gases left over from combustion of the powder/primer. In theory, firing immediately after first round will have hotter air with other gases mixed in (slightly less dense) which allows bullets to speed up faster.
I does seem to disappear in summer months so the air temp/barrel temp may well have something to do with it. I shot 3-400 rounds this weekend and only the first round each day would have the significant low 50+for variation. Subsequent groups would still have a slightly low shot if left alone for a while but no where near as bad as the initial shot or two of the day.
Most match shooters are just ignorant ludites. They really need to let this HV trans-sonic crap die.
HV ammo shoots just as good as match ammo at long distances. HV ammo wins lots of matches, but no one ever wants to talk about that.
The only reason I ever shot 1050-1080fps ammo in a match, was because I was afraid I would be DQ'd and accused of cheating.
HV ammo shoots just as good as match ammo at long distances. HV ammo wins lots of matches, but no one ever wants to talk about that.
The only reason I ever shot 1050-1080fps ammo in a match, was because I was afraid I would be DQ'd and accused of cheating.
Yeah sure ,even if we skip everything else, match ammo is sorted in many grades ,HV is any junk that drops out of the machine.
Which matches is HV winning ?
CZ wins many matches ergo what is the point of Voodoo ,Anschutz or any premium rifle ? that is your logic?
Which matches is HV winning ?
CZ wins many matches ergo what is the point of Voodoo ,Anschutz or any premium rifle ? that is your logic?
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No logic applied at all.
I do have a theory. The wheel gets reinvented on the internet every 7 years.
I don't even shoot a 22 in matches......anymore.
Supersonic transition...my latest favorite topic.
Why is it considered to be such a problem?
Is it the study based on the smkbthp that provides it provenance?
Hmmmm...smkbthp, a needle nosed projectile with the center of gravity at the rear of the bullet.
As the center of pressure shifts forward, the location of the cg causes the bullet to yaw , pitch or tumble.
Yep, that would cause problems with accuracy.
The ballistics study done with the 22lr, a short, stubby, round nose, was run on R50 and Tenex.
The conclusion drawn did not show pitch, yaw or tumbling, only increased wind drift.
Wait, only increased drift? That sounds like something I can adapt to.
So the transition doesn't have the same effect on the 22lr as the smkbthp... interesting.
So why is hi-v 22lr avoided in competition?
Is it due to the lack of match quality hi-v ammo?
No one makes match quality hi-v 22lr. Why not?
Could it be the pressure spike becomes unpredictable at that primer and powder load?
That alone could cause major variations in MV...
Just thinking here...it would explain much.
I've pulled tight groups at 100 yards with hi-v 22lr.
But only when ammo quality was consistent and MV's we're tight.
Crappy ammo... crappy results.
Transition... I'm thinking it gets the blame for problems actually caused by poorly made 22lr ammo.
Why is it considered to be such a problem?
Is it the study based on the smkbthp that provides it provenance?
Hmmmm...smkbthp, a needle nosed projectile with the center of gravity at the rear of the bullet.
As the center of pressure shifts forward, the location of the cg causes the bullet to yaw , pitch or tumble.
Yep, that would cause problems with accuracy.
The ballistics study done with the 22lr, a short, stubby, round nose, was run on R50 and Tenex.
The conclusion drawn did not show pitch, yaw or tumbling, only increased wind drift.
Wait, only increased drift? That sounds like something I can adapt to.
So the transition doesn't have the same effect on the 22lr as the smkbthp... interesting.
So why is hi-v 22lr avoided in competition?
Is it due to the lack of match quality hi-v ammo?
No one makes match quality hi-v 22lr. Why not?
Could it be the pressure spike becomes unpredictable at that primer and powder load?
That alone could cause major variations in MV...
Just thinking here...it would explain much.
I've pulled tight groups at 100 yards with hi-v 22lr.
But only when ammo quality was consistent and MV's we're tight.
Crappy ammo... crappy results.
Transition... I'm thinking it gets the blame for problems actually caused by poorly made 22lr ammo.
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I think it is the load they have happened to develop over the years and the wind drift.Supersonic transition...my latest favorite topic.
Why is it considered to be such a problem?
Is it the study based on the smkbthp that provides it provenance?
Hmmmm...smkbthp, a needle nosed projectile with the center of gravity at the rear of the bullet.
As the center of pressure shifts forward, the location of the cg causes the bullet to yaw , pitch or tumble.
Yep, that would cause problems with accuracy.
The ballistics study done with the 22lr, a short, stubby, round nose, was run on R50 and Tenex.
The conclusion drawn did not show pitch, yaw or tumbling, only increased wind drift.
Wait, only increased drift? That sounds like something I can adapt to.
So the transition doesn't have the same effect on the 22lr as the smkbthp... interesting.
So why is hi-v 22lr avoided in competition?
Is it due to the lack of match quality hi-v ammo?
No one makes match quality hi-v 22lr. Why not?
Could it be the pressure spike becomes unpredictable at that primer and powder load?
That alone could cause major variations in MV...
Just thinking here...it would explain much.
I've pulled tight groups at 100 yards with hi-v 22lr.
But only when ammo quality was consistent and MV's we're tight.
Crappy ammo... crappy results.
Transition... I'm thinking it gets the blame for problems actually caused by poorly made 22lr ammo.
I do not know how much more HV ammo fouls barrel, probably more which might show in matches where extreme accuracy is needed (50m prone etc)
@justin amateur I have very limited experience about shooting beyond 100m but I am under the impression that even the weaker cast bullets like CCI SV which do not look very uniform from the outside do well when the load is consistent.
Figured out? Not yet chikn.
I keep reading articles on the web looking for answers.
The transition gets blamed for poor results with hi-v 22lr.
But no one has any documentation.
They all point to the smkbthp study as proof,
but ignore the R50 and Tenex results.
I've spent the last year trying every brand and make of 22lr, 17hmr and 17 wsm at 200 yards across a chrony.
From the results, wind and cartridge defects are the true culprits to blame for trajectory shifts.
Not the transition. If it were the transition,
then vertical spread wouldn't match MV spread.
Still reading, sooner or later I'll find another study that clearly explains what is occurring.
I keep reading articles on the web looking for answers.
The transition gets blamed for poor results with hi-v 22lr.
But no one has any documentation.
They all point to the smkbthp study as proof,
but ignore the R50 and Tenex results.
I've spent the last year trying every brand and make of 22lr, 17hmr and 17 wsm at 200 yards across a chrony.
From the results, wind and cartridge defects are the true culprits to blame for trajectory shifts.
Not the transition. If it were the transition,
then vertical spread wouldn't match MV spread.
Still reading, sooner or later I'll find another study that clearly explains what is occurring.
I'm not pointing to any study but many many years of shooting.
I have never had time nor resources to "prove it" nor have I the inclination to argue with people who "never saw it" so it must not exist.
Ive seen it, I've seen it between 50 and 100yds....that is where it happens. I've seen it many times.
"Then why does my bullets make a great group at 300 and 400 yards old man?"
Fuck I don't know. My specialty is geometry and figuring water flow, I'm not a rocket scientist. But that group ain't good as you say it is either.
I know this as well....all shooters tend to be twice as good at remembering hits, than they are at remembering misses. "I hit it! I hit it!" Oh yeah, you sure did, 6 out of 10 on a huge target, makes it good ammo I reckon.
Y'all carry on, I'm just an old man that don't have nothing better to do anymore, than pester internet movers and shakers.
I have never had time nor resources to "prove it" nor have I the inclination to argue with people who "never saw it" so it must not exist.
Ive seen it, I've seen it between 50 and 100yds....that is where it happens. I've seen it many times.
"Then why does my bullets make a great group at 300 and 400 yards old man?"
Fuck I don't know. My specialty is geometry and figuring water flow, I'm not a rocket scientist. But that group ain't good as you say it is either.
I know this as well....all shooters tend to be twice as good at remembering hits, than they are at remembering misses. "I hit it! I hit it!" Oh yeah, you sure did, 6 out of 10 on a huge target, makes it good ammo I reckon.
Y'all carry on, I'm just an old man that don't have nothing better to do anymore, than pester internet movers and shakers.
Testing done that absolutely proves standard velocity .22LR having less wind drift , not only that but wind drift could be even less by going even a bit slower remember drag increases by a square root as the speed increases and wind drift is ultimately a function of drag. Google foo Memorandum Report BRL-MR-3877 Aerodynamic Characteristics of .22LR Match Ammunition
I shoot mainly standard velocity ammo out of my 22LR rifles. The only recent experience I've had with higher speed ammo (in a rifle) is with SK Long Range Match out of my CZ 457 MTR which was averaging 1125 FPS according to my LabRadar. The higher it went over 1125 FPS, the worse it grouped. My worst group was nearly 4 MOA at 50 yards. Just to be sure it wasn't me, I had another shooter (better than I) try it and he had the same issue. I put the last 10 rounds from the box into one of my custom 10/22 rifles and the Long Range Match ammo was sub MOA at 50 yards with an average FPS of around 1091. Swapped from SK Long Range Match to SK Rifle Match in the MTR and the group size dropped considerably.
I'll be sticking with ammo that shoots below 1100 FPS.
I'll be sticking with ammo that shoots below 1100 FPS.
Ammo quality is everything.
Poorly assembled cartridges will not produce consistent trajectories.
Match grade benchrest ammo is more predictable.
McCoy published this study...
www.rimfirecentral.com
Poorly assembled cartridges will not produce consistent trajectories.
Match grade benchrest ammo is more predictable.
McCoy published this study...
50 at 200
Imo, the 'odds' of the 1st shot often being the 'hot one' wouldn't/couldn't consistently be the luck of drawing a higher velo load out of the box. It would possibly be some of them, sure, but would make me consider it is something else as the primary causal factor. Fwiw, when it matters to me I...
www.rimfirecentral.com I have sometimes thought of getting different velocity lots of certain ammo and tried if the accuracy correlates with the velocity at all.
4MOA sounds something very wide though, I expect to see something like 0.5moa in the difference at max with different ammo. If it is more I expect it to be just ammo quality variance/bad combination with the barrell.
Bill, I recorded 10-shot strings of all five lots of SK LR Match that I tested earlier this spring out of the Krieger 22" bbl on my original V-22. A couple of those lots averaged under 1100fps - 1092 & 1095, and the lot that averaged 1092 had an ES of 19, Sd of 5. The lot# that shot best in all three of the rifles I used to test (two Kriegers, one Bartlein) had an avg vel of 1111fps, with an ES of 14, Sd of 5, and this lot was far superior at 100 & 210yds to the other four lots. Whether this is significant or not, I can't say, just posting my results FYI. I'm planning to buy more lot samples of LR Match later this summer and see what sort of results I get in warmer weather - I tested the original lots of LR Match that came into the country on March 19 & 21, and just happened to catch 62*F & 65*F days with very mild condtions for shooting. I did buy a case of the best lot, and have seen some pretty good results out of it at shorter distances - 50 & 100yds.
However, when I invited a friend to travel to a .22RF PR match in April, and loaned him my newer V-22 Kukri, we did some shooting the day before the match so he could refine his personal zero on that rifle. I'd planned to shoot LR Match in the Krieger bbl'd V-22 I was shooting, and assumed we'd do the same in the Bartlein Kukri, but we found that - at least on that day - Lapua Center-X I'd bought after sending the Krieger V-22 to the Test Center in Mesa, Az. Center-X was a little better at 50, 100, 150, & 210yds than the good lot of LR Match. I have no explanation for that, but have seen the results on certain days since that weekend where the LR Match shot a little better than the same lot of Center-X. Nothing scientific here - no double blind testing, or having another shooter or shooters to help get results. Just my own self shooting, with no particular agenda in mind. To me, all that means is that on any given day, one of these two ammunition types will shoot just a bit better than the other. The last time I chrono'd this lot of Center-X, avg vel was 1058fps, ES 36, Sd 10, on a 63*F day.
However, when I invited a friend to travel to a .22RF PR match in April, and loaned him my newer V-22 Kukri, we did some shooting the day before the match so he could refine his personal zero on that rifle. I'd planned to shoot LR Match in the Krieger bbl'd V-22 I was shooting, and assumed we'd do the same in the Bartlein Kukri, but we found that - at least on that day - Lapua Center-X I'd bought after sending the Krieger V-22 to the Test Center in Mesa, Az. Center-X was a little better at 50, 100, 150, & 210yds than the good lot of LR Match. I have no explanation for that, but have seen the results on certain days since that weekend where the LR Match shot a little better than the same lot of Center-X. Nothing scientific here - no double blind testing, or having another shooter or shooters to help get results. Just my own self shooting, with no particular agenda in mind. To me, all that means is that on any given day, one of these two ammunition types will shoot just a bit better than the other. The last time I chrono'd this lot of Center-X, avg vel was 1058fps, ES 36, Sd 10, on a 63*F day.
I'm going to stick my neck out here, and make a statement.
Supersonic transition is not a problem with 22lr.
The data does not support the theory.
When the results conflict with the theory, you need a new theory.
Testing done in a ballistics lab, using scientific method
shows insignificant loss of accuracy due to the transition
when shooting high quality 22lr.
Loss of accuracy with hi-v 22lr is due to other causes.
Most likely culprits are cartridge defects, wind and barrel whip.
22lr quality varies even box to box in the same batch.
Easily proven using a ballistic chronograph.
Attempting to use the smkbthp study to support the theory
is invalidated due to the difference in projectile shape
when compared to the 22lr.
Supersonic transition is not a problem with 22lr.
The data does not support the theory.
When the results conflict with the theory, you need a new theory.
Testing done in a ballistics lab, using scientific method
shows insignificant loss of accuracy due to the transition
when shooting high quality 22lr.
Loss of accuracy with hi-v 22lr is due to other causes.
Most likely culprits are cartridge defects, wind and barrel whip.
22lr quality varies even box to box in the same batch.
Easily proven using a ballistic chronograph.
Attempting to use the smkbthp study to support the theory
is invalidated due to the difference in projectile shape
when compared to the 22lr.
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Yes, I'm OT again.
Loving my reduced load 20-221AI centerfire using pistol powder out to 400Y! Low recoil with 32's, 2300 fps, 8fps SD, 1/2 moa or less and provides challenge in the wind.
Why didn't I try this sooner, rimfire ammo capability kinda sucks to me anymore, it's the vertical at distance which I despised, applies for 17hmr and 22 mag as well.
Still using the Anschutz for NRL22 of course.
Lawless, I shoot a Kidd Supergrade with the factory Magpul stock that I would like to upgrade. What stock is that on your rifle?I have great results with my accurized Ruger American but my baby is a 16” Kidd. The Kidd is what I shot this spring out to 400 yards. The Contact was more consistent than any other ammo tried that day in the wind at the longer ranges.
At 50 yards they are under .300 if I am up to it , low .100s at 25.
The extra 2 grains helps them tremendously out yonder
I honestly like them over much more expensive Tenex and SK.
This rifle shot Federal bulk on steel well to 400 as well. It only took 19 or so mils where the Contact took around 23. It just is a fantastic rifle. You can see where I was walking it up once I made a hit.
Forgive the bipod, it has a Magpul on it now.
400 for 22 is incredibly fun and the wind will wreak havoc like shooting 308 at 1K.View attachment 7003043
View attachment 7003042
View attachment 7003046
New guy to the forum, long time pistol shooter just getting into the rimfire precision rifle game. Assuming for a minute there is no real transonic issues and everything else being basically equal would not the faster HV round be better from a wind perspective simply because it is in flight for a shorter period of time?
Please next time start a new topic so the communication is easier.
In short, no, because higher wind speed increases wind deflection.
Here is a reply of mine from history:
It says that at 700fps bullet goes astray 4.4 minutes of angle (2.6") while bullet leaving 1470fps is going to go astray 7.3 moa (8.2")
In short, no, because higher wind speed increases wind deflection.
Here is a reply of mine from history:
It says that at 700fps bullet goes astray 4.4 minutes of angle (2.6") while bullet leaving 1470fps is going to go astray 7.3 moa (8.2")
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I'm thinking the reason for increased wind drift for hi-v 22lr
has to do with the pressure wave created by the interaction of the bullet nose with the air molecules.
It creates a skin, or sail, around the bullet made up of compressed air which increases the apparent crosssection.
Increased surface area means larger loading surface for prevailing wind movement.
That means increased wind drift as long as the bullet is super sonic.
Interestingly, a CCI MiniMag goes transonic at 30 to 40 yards from the muzzle.
From there on it's a subsonic projectile.
has to do with the pressure wave created by the interaction of the bullet nose with the air molecules.
It creates a skin, or sail, around the bullet made up of compressed air which increases the apparent crosssection.
Increased surface area means larger loading surface for prevailing wind movement.
That means increased wind drift as long as the bullet is super sonic.
Interestingly, a CCI MiniMag goes transonic at 30 to 40 yards from the muzzle.
From there on it's a subsonic projectile.
