Staying on target post shot

Ringo7978

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Im still new to long range shooting here, but I feel like I have zero ability to see my impacts with the jump of my rifle after shot. I’m shootings 6.5cm, so not a ton of kick. I have a brake, and shooting off of a bag. My scope is a viper pst and using ~15x at 600 yards. What technique should I be focusing on to better track my own shots.
 

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Ringo,

1. Make sure your shoulders are square and you are directly behind the rifle
2. if prone make sure your spine is in a straight line back from the rifle
3. Load bipod from your hips not your shoulders
4. Pull the rifle back Firmly into your shoulder pocket w your firing hand.
5. dial magnification down to 10-12x
6. Engage the wall of the trigger
7. Press-break-freeze
8. Hold your position and spot your impact
9. Run the bolt
 

Ringo7978

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Ringo,

1. Make sure your shoulders are square and you are directly behind the rifle
2. if prone make sure your spine is in a straight line back from the rifle
3. Load bipod from your hips not your shoulders
4. Pull the rifle back Firmly into your shoulder pocket w your firing hand.
5. dial magnification down to 10-12x
6. Engage the wall of the trigger
7. Press-break-freeze
8. Hold your position and spot your impact
9. Run the bolt
thank you! I see I have a bunch to work on, I’m far from checking all those boxes. This is exactly what I needed. Thanks!
 
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Lil Casino

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If you're unable to attend a class...upgrade your account to Online Training Access. Lots of good videos discussing FoM and other topics. I'm sure it's not as good as being in class with Frank but for $18 a month, it's a steal!
 
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Newbie2020

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Great video. Good camera angle showing the rifle moving straight back into the shooter then back to the original spot. If the shooter were angled like the little green army man the rifle would not have returned back to the original position.
 

Baron23

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    I have been struggling with the same issue. Bottom line, is I'm self-taught (and yes, that is indeed the blind leading the blind) from online articles, vids, and then taking that to the range to try out.

    I have very limited opportunities at the present (soon to change) to shoot prone and hence shoot off of some old wooden benches with a layer of crappy carpet on top. The "stools" with these benches are fixed (that is, they are wood with leg posts firmly in the ground) and I found it almost impossible to get really behind the gun. My gun's POA was consistently ending up well to left of my target after the shot and often the gun would jump up a bit onto the left leg. No bueno.

    I have improved in this area from these actions:

    1. I bought a drummer's stool and now sit behind the bench and adjust up/down so I can get a bit forward from the hips onto the butt pad. Fuck those stools.
    2. I put spiked feet on my Atlas so...fuck the carpet also! haha
    3. I have adjusted my shooting hand position to not wrap my thumb and make sure my middle to pinky fingers are not in a position to pull on the gun (I hope)
    4. I have made it a point of emphasis to relax my on shoulder so it can absorb the recoil. I find it quite easy to tense this shoulder up.
    3. I have made a point of emphasis to stay on the trigger until recoil impulse is over.

    So, my shooting has gotten a LOT better BUT.....I still end up looking a bit to the left after the shot. On a 100 yd target, after recoil I'm looking 8-12" to the left after the recoil pulse. Always to the left.

    Now, I think I'll get the advise to get some formal training and I'm all about that. I'm def doing the Frank (@lowlight) and Marc (@Enough Said) show in PA next Aug and really looking forward to it. Not sure what I can do in the mean time. I'm 68, have three MI's, and COVID is something I'm trying very hard to avoid so right now a my travel is a bit restricted (but fuck it, going to GA to shoot quail at the end of Oct...wish me luck! haha).

    Also, I have no yet signed up for the Hide online training as I have been busy reading and watching everything I could on open sources so I would have at least some background on which to build with the training vids.

    But, I'm also open to any suggestions you fellas may have.

    Cheers
     

    Ringo7978

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    @Baron23 Good to hear I am not alone :) Best of luck to you in getting this figured out, I'm sure we'll get through this! Like you I am all self taught and learning along the way from videos and forums like SH. In just a month I went from getting a long range gun, to hitting 6" steel at 600, so I am happy with the progress so far, but realize there is much room for improvement.
     
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    Newbie2020

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    What @Baron23 said: DON'T USE THE SIDE CUTOUTS ON THE RANGE BENCHES! Get behind the rifle like you would be in the prone position. The cutouts teach bad habits. "There's lots of good bad shooters!" A guy can shoot small 100 yd groups shooting wrong, but that won't translate to 2" at 200 yds and 3" at 300 yds. It won't translate to the prone.

    What he said also: relax your shoulder. Use your hips to load the bipod with the approximate weight of the rifle (~10 lbs?), then pull the rifle straight back into your shoulder pocket with your "graspers" (middle finger, ring finger, and pinkie).

    If your body position is correct its virtually impossible for the muzzle to move sideways---physics doesn't lie.
     

    Baron23

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    Went to the range today despite feeling like crap from the Shingrex shingles vaccine. Since one sore arm would have me off balance, Igor a flu shot in the other. I’m going to bed soon!! LOL

    Shot GREAT. Nobody there but me shooting to 100 yd.

    So, I took a close look at where I end up after the shot and it’s not as bad as I thought. After much improvement, my POA end up six inches to the left of my original POA after the shot. It’s very consistent and I can’t seem to get rid of this last small amount of lateral movement.

    Open to suggestions. But I’m sure that the boys will beat it out of me in PA next August. But I would like to find a solution before that.

    To you expert shooters; are you really dead hard on the bullseye (or OG POA) after shot Or is there still some small amount of lateral movement?
     

    Newbie2020

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    (NOT and expert...) but you shouldn’t be that far off after the shot. Maybe a little up or down (1”?) due to recoil management but not 6” left.

    Rifle pointed to the target
    Shoulders square to the rifle.
    Rifle securely in the shoulder pocket.
    Load the bipod with your hips not your shoulder.
    Don’t press sideways with your cheek weld.
    Pull the rifle into your shoulder pocket with the graspers of your firing hand.

    I noticed an incredible reduction in reticle movement whenever I do things right like Frank and Marc teach. When I fail to do one of the above, the reticle never settles on the bullseye.
     
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    Newbie2020

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    I wish I’d never learned about the Alaska class....I won’t be complete until I’ve conquered the Alaska class.....
     

    Ringo7978

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    I’d love to take my son up there in the future for this class. Where can I get details on cost/dates?
     

    Precision Underground

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    You’ve got to get yourself connected to the ground/table as step 1. A lot of people don’t know how to do this. Start face down, dead on the ground. Use your back muscles to lift yourself up enough to address the rifle. When you pull up with your back your core will press into the ground(this works in modified prone on a table as well)That’s the connection to the ground/bench you need. Don’t prop up on your elbows.

    Now connect your rifle to the ground/bench through YOU, not through the rear bag. I’d be willing to bet your scope goes up and to the left because your stock is on your bag 100% and your cheek is pushing down and to the right pretty hard. Connect the rifle to the ground through a ralaxed shoulder and get on a NPA then use the bag to make your reticle be still. Don’t aim with the bag aim with your body.

    Not sure if I’m classified as an expert but this is a suppressed 6.5. Theres not a ton of recoil here but It’s def more recoil than a 6.5 with a brake. I can stay on target the same with a 300 Norma. Watch my bicep pull the rifle into my shoulder before each shot. That’s me connecting the rifle to the ground through a relaxed shoulder. My core is pressed into the ground so there’s a direct path. The recoil looks to be nonexistent but look close at how much it moves my body. I’m 190lbs and it’s rocking my whole body back and forth. The key is I’m on a NPA so while it rocks me back and forth there are no other forces to take me off target. I’m resting on target so unless the rifle can actually move me from where I am I’ll land back on target every time.
     
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    Baron23

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    (NOT and expert...) but you shouldn’t be that far off after the shot. Maybe a little up or down (1”?) due to recoil management but not 6” left.

    Rifle pointed to the target
    Shoulders square to the rifle.
    Rifle securely in the shoulder pocket.
    Load the bipod with your hips not your shoulder.
    Don’t press sideways with your cheek weld.
    Pull the rifle into your shoulder pocket with the graspers of your firing hand.

    I noticed an incredible reduction in reticle movement whenever I do things right like Frank and Marc teach. When I fail to do one of the above, the reticle never settles on the bullseye.
    Well, we may have hit on something here. The J Allen chassis comb adjusts up and down but not laterally. Having been a long time competitive skeet shooter (or, I should say I competed, how competitive I was is another story) I am very adverse to rolling my head to get behind the rib or in our case to get in the eye box. Instead, I have decades of turning my nose into the stock which pulls my eye in.

    I may very well be putting some force to the right into the butt with my face by doing this. I’m not nearly as firm w it as w a shotgun, but I will take this out of my mount and see how I do.

    Thanks guys for the input.

    @Precision Underground - thanks for the in depth reply and the video.

    Cheers
     

    Precision Underground

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    Well, we may have hit on something here. The J Allen chassis comb adjusts up and down but not laterally. Having been a long time competitive skeet shooter (or, I should say I competed, how competitive I was is another story) I am very adverse to rolling my head to get behind the rib or in our case to get in the eye box. Instead, I have decades of turning my nose into the stock which pulls my eye in.

    I may very well be putting some force to the right into the butt with my face by doing this. I’m not nearly as firm w it as w a shotgun, but I will take this out of my mount and see how I do.

    Thanks guys for the input.

    @Precision Underground - thanks for the in depth reply and the video.

    Cheers
    🤙🏻A big key is to get yourself connected to the earth/bench so you can get the rifle connected to you on a natural point of aim. Otherwise you will need to rely on the bag too much to get stable enough and will mash down with your cheek.
     
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    Ringo7978

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    You’ve got to get yourself connected to the ground/table as step 1. A lot of people don’t know how to do this. Start face down, dead on the ground. Use your back muscles to lift yourself up enough to address the rifle. When you pull up with your back your core will press into the ground(this works in modified prone on a table as well)That’s the connection to the ground/bench you need. Don’t prop up on your elbows.

    Now connect your rifle to the ground/bench through YOU, not through the rear bag. I’d be willing to bet your scope goes up and to the left because your stock is on your bag 100% and your cheek is pushing down and to the right pretty hard. Connect the rifle to the ground through a ralaxed shoulder and get on a NPA then use the bag to make your reticle be still. Don’t aim with the bag aim with your body.

    Not sure if I’m classified as an expert but this is a suppressed 6.5. Theres not a ton of recoil here but It’s def more recoil than a 6.5 with a brake. I can stay on target the same with a 300 Norma. Watch my bicep pull the rifle into my shoulder before each shot. That’s me connecting the rifle to the ground through a relaxed shoulder. My core is pressed into the ground so there’s a direct path. The recoil looks to be nonexistent but look close at how much it moves my body. I’m 190lbs and it’s rocking my whole body back and forth. The key is I’m on a NPA so while it rocks me back and forth there are no other forces to take me off target. I’m resting on target so unless the rifle can actually move me from where I am I’ll land back on target every time.
    Which bag is that you are using in your video? Your ELR bag? When would you recommend the 3D elr over the standard?
     

    xtacleone

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    3 things that help me : 1) get a good bipod (Atlas is my recomendation) and load the bipod 2) get a rear bag for the stock - when you load the bipod and use a rear bag you should be able to get on target, close your eyes, take a breath, open your eyes and still be on target 3) After you take your shot wait a beat to release the trigger ... there is so much more but a few tips for you until you take a long range shooting class.
     

    Precision Underground

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    Which bag is that you are using in your video? Your ELR bag? When would you recommend the 3D elr over the standard?
    I believe that’s a ELR Mini as that’s what I normally use. We were shooting from a tower there so it may have been a standard ELR I’m not positive. The 3d ELR vs ELR Is just personal preference. The 3d has the added dimension of thickness so it’s a bigger bag and it gives you more options for height. Try one it will be the best bag you’ve used or send it back and we’ll give you your money back.
     
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    Ringo7978

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    3 things that help me : 1) get a good bipod (Atlas is my recomendation) and load the bipod 2) get a rear bag for the stock - when you load the bipod and use a rear bag you should be able to get on target, close your eyes, take a breath, open your eyes and still be on target 3) After you take your shot wait a beat to release the trigger ... there is so much more but a few tips for you until you take a long range shooting class.
    Since were in this forum I am going to ask this question so I can confirm what I am thinking. When you say “load the bipod” does that mean to put forward pressure on the firearm while the bipod is planted? Sorry for a basic question.
     

    XLR308

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    Ringo,

    1. Make sure your shoulders are square and you are directly behind the rifle
    2. if prone make sure your spine is in a straight line back from the rifle
    3. Load bipod from your hips not your shoulders
    4. Pull the rifle back Firmly into your shoulder pocket w your firing hand.
    5. dial magnification down to 10-12x
    6. Engage the wall of the trigger
    7. Press-break-freeze
    8. Hold your position and spot your impact
    9. Run the bolt
    One more item you can definitely add to that list is a stock that is either properly fitted or adjusted to fit the shooter as precisely as possible.
    We are all different heights and shapes so the one size fits all is out at least for me.
    I'm not all that tall at 6'2" but I have long arms and neck and causes me issues with most unadjustable stocks.
     
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    Ringo7978

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    One more item you can definitely add to that list is a stock that is either properly fitted or adjusted to fit the shooter as precisely as possible.
    We are all different heights and shapes so the one size fits all is out at least for me.
    I'm not all that tall at 6'2" but I have long arms and neck and causes me issues with most unadjustable stocks.
    I did have issues here so I replaced my stock with a KRG Bravo. Much better now!
     

    XLR308

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    I did have issues here so I replaced my stock with a KRG Bravo. Much better now!
    I have heard so many good things about the Bravo and wanted to try one but unfortunately the actions I have even though they are a rem700 clone are not compatible.
    The XLR Carbon I'm using now is the most comfortable I have ever used and pretty much the exact opposite of what I have allways owned considering the scope has to be mounted much higher due to the handguard.
     

    xtacleone

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    Since were in this forum I am going to ask this question so I can confirm what I am thinking. When you say “load the bipod” does that mean to put forward pressure on the firearm while the bipod is planted? Sorry for a basic question.
    No, this is a great question. No one should make you feel bad for trying to understand the basics to develop a good shooting foundation.

    Yes! you are exactly right you want to comfortably lean into your rifle with your shoulder, while there is support under the stock (get a shooting bag for under the buttstock, your support hand will be holding the bag to raise or lower the end of the rifle). You need to have something solid in-front of the bipod that you can put pressure on or have the bipod legs dug in a bit. T

    But when you load the bipod, it will keep the rifle from jumping around. I have the same scope as you in FFP Mil. You are good to go at 600 yards.

    Here is the beautiful thing, when you shoot out to 600 yards you will be able to see your shots hit (shoot steal targets not paper if possible) and you will sometimes be able to see the vapor trail of the bullet (depending on weather conditions) . It will be a game changer for your long range shooting.
     
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    Ringo7978

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    No, this is a great question. No one should make you feel bad for trying to understand the basics to develop a good shooting foundation.

    Yes! you are exactly right you want to comfortably lean into your rifle with your shoulder, while there is support under the stock (get a shooting bag for under the buttstock, your support hand will be holding the bag to raise or lower the end of the rifle). You need to have something solid in-front of the bipod that you can put pressure on or have the bipod legs dug in a bit. T

    But when you load the bipod, it will keep the rifle from jumping around. I have the same scope as you in FFP Mil. You are good to go at 600 yards.

    Here is the beautiful thing, when you shoot out to 600 yards you will be able to see your shots hit (shoot steal targets not paper if possible) and you will sometimes be able to see the vapor trail of the bullet (depending on weather conditions) . It will be a game changer for your long range shooting.
    Fantastic! Thanks for the reply! I haven’t seen the bullet trace yet (due to jumping) through my scope, but I did attach my phone to the spotting scope and was able to catch the bullet trace at both 200y and 600y. One of the coolest things I’ve seen.
     
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    xtacleone

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    Yeah man, you will see a huge difference. Again, look into Atlas bipod, for the price, I havent found better, dont get the magpul bipod to save money. it will not do what you want. Also, if lying prone make sure to spread your legs and keep your ankles down (critical in my opinion).

    Also, I took a class with this guy last year. https://www.longguntraining.com/ The best shooting class I have ever taken in my life and changed how I shoot. I highly recommend if you have the funds and the time.
     

    Ringo7978

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    Yeah man, you will see a huge difference. Again, look into Atlas bipod, for the price, I havent found better, dont get the magpul bipod to save money. it will not do what you want. Also, if lying prone make sure to spread your legs and keep your ankles down (critical in my opinion).

    Also, I took a class with this guy last year. https://www.longguntraining.com/ The best shooting class I have ever taken in my life and changed how I shoot. I highly recommend if you have the funds and the time.
    I placed an order for An Accu-tac bipod (Br-4 G2) instead of the Atlas, based on my research. I hope I made the right decision, I won't know until it finally arrives....Amazon has spoiled me with delivery, this is already 2 weeks in and nothing yet.
     
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    Newbie2020

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    ...and as @lowlight says, load the bipod with the approximate weight equivalent to the weight of the rifle and DO NOT load the bipod with your shoulder, load it from your hips so that your shoulders are relaxed and not affecting your natural point of aim.
     
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    xtacleone

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    ...and as @lowlight says, load the bipod with the approximate weight equivalent to the weight of the rifle and DO NOT load the bipod with your shoulder, load it from your hips so that your shoulders are relaxed and not affecting your natural point of aim.
    Yeah, this is the good advice. Load from your hips! Thanks for correcting me. I was taught to load from the hips when prone, embarrassing that I said lean into the shoulder. Thanks for jumping in Newbie, this is an important distinction.
     
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    xtacleone

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    I placed an order for An Accu-tac bipod (Br-4 G2) instead of the Atlas, based on my research. I hope I made the right decision, I won't know until it finally arrives....Amazon has spoiled me with delivery, this is already 2 weeks in and nothing yet.
    Nicely done. Cant go wrong with Accu-tac. I have never used one, but heard good things and their warrantee is as good as it gets. You are definitely setting yourself up for success.
     
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    Precision Underground

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    Since were in this forum I am going to ask this question so I can confirm what I am thinking. When you say “load the bipod” does that mean to put forward pressure on the firearm while the bipod is planted? Sorry for a basic question.
    I would advise against any thought of leaning your shoulder into the rifle. “Load the bipod“ is a terrible phrase IMO and it creates a lot more problems than it solves. I can’t imagine a scenario where someone is set up correctly with the rifle connected to them and then something goes wrong because they didn’t load the bipod. There are 1000 scenarios where trying to load the bipod can make bad stuff happen. Get yourself connected to the ground/bench correctly and get the rifle connected to you correctly, shift your feet/hips until you are on target with a natural point of aim. I can purposely reverse load the bipod and still stay on target easily so IMO there are much more important things to focus on.
     
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    Newbie2020

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    I would advise against any thought of leaning your shoulder into the rifle. “Load the bipod“ is a terrible phrase IMO and it creates a lot more problems than it solves. I can’t imagine a scenario where someone is set up correctly with the rifle connected to them and then something goes wrong because they didn’t load the bipod. There are 1000 scenarios where trying to load the bipod can make bad stuff happen. Get yourself connected to the ground/bench correctly and get the rifle connected to you correctly, shift your feet/hips until you are on target with a natural point of aim. I can purposely reverse load the bipod and still stay on target easily so IMO there are much more important things to focus on.
    So don’t load the bipod?