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Subsonics - All Calibers

Just found this thread and am looking to reload my first subsonic loads for .308W and .300BO. I am seeing/reading that you guys are crimping your rounds? I've only ever reloaded for precision rifle, hence never crimped. What's the reason for doing that with subs, and is it necessary? I don't have crimping dies.

Finally, what are some good starting points for the following:

1. .308Win, 24", 10-twist, bolt-gun.

2. .300B.O., 7.5" AR pistol. Can't recall twist, but it shoots crappy S&B 200-gr sub ammo just fine.

I have 3-lb of Trail boss to work with.
Thanks
 
300 AAC BLACKOUT

anyone use CFE BLK for both subsonic and supersonic?

Supersonic I was thinking 110gr to 125gr

Subsonic I was thinking 200gr to 220gr
 
12.1g cfe blk 220 hornady fbrn interlock 1/7 tw 16 inch.

Always make sure I get the damn 1/5 flier. lol

This was before I got my mandrell so maybe next batch will shrink the flier or maybe I learn to shoot?
20181114_170651.jpg
 
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My 10.5 inche sbr has irons with an ecotec and shoots the same load but I can't get that tight a group with my old eyes.

More like moph.
Minute of pig head.
 
Anyone out there have a subsonic load to cycle an AR 10 in 308 win. ?
 
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

At sub sonic velocities, does the BC matter? The reason I ask is I plug different bullets (everything from a 220 RN to a 175 SMK) into my trusty iphone app (Ballistic FTE) and using the same MV, my drop out to 200 yds is nearly the same?
My application is .308 win LTR (lefty!!) for night time hog killin. I know Engel (EBR) has a hollow point (Thumper, I believe). Anyone know of a large round hollow point in a 30 cal?
Thanks
TX COWDOC
Try the Maker Rex 220 gr. if you got the twist for it.
 
Yes like stated above if you have the twist. A lot of 30 cal 220 bullets need 1 / 7 twist to stabilize.

That's probably why you don't see 308 sub factory rounds.
 
Anyone out there have a subsonic load to cycle an AR 10 in 308 win. ?
That's a tough bill to fill given the weight of the bolt and heavier spring. Maybe with a pistol length gas port and 220gr or heavier pills... But I think to get enough pressure to cycle the bolt from a mid or rifle length gas system your likely going to break the sound barrier.

Honestly, the noise of the bolt running kinda ruins the silence.
 
Just curious if anyone has used the 250gr Atip in a .308 sub load? I see 240gr in here so far...
 
I have'nt had any problems with 247gr in a 1/8 twist,lots of them.At 950-975fps,very accurate out to 75yds.Still fairly accurate after but multiple flyers.
 
Just found this thread and am looking to reload my first subsonic loads for .308W and .300BO. I am seeing/reading that you guys are crimping your rounds? I've only ever reloaded for precision rifle, hence never crimped. What's the reason for doing that with subs, and is it necessary? I don't have crimping dies.

Finally, what are some good starting points for the following:

1. .308Win, 24", 10-twist, bolt-gun.

2. .300B.O., 7.5" AR pistol. Can't recall twist, but it shoots crappy S&B 200-gr sub ammo just fine.

I have 3-lb of Trail boss to work with.
Thanks
Trail Boss does'nt produce much gas for a semi...but in a bolt or single shot/hand cycle AR,superb in subsonic.I've fired standing back to back with someone that did'nt realize I'd fired 2 rds.Don't follow the Hornady misprint(I hope) of 7.5gr for 200+gr...very compressed.
 
OK, tried loading some .300BO yesterday. Can't find a load start for Trail Boss, but I don't think it's going to work. With the 220-gr round nose sp bullets I have, seated to mage length, I can only get max of 4-gr of TB in the case. I tried using the Hornady guide, but 9-gr was too much to even fit in the case.

Any normal powders that work for Subs in .300BO?
 
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Pet load in 300 bo

12.1g cfeblk / 220 hornady fbrn interlock. Needs the 1/7 twist.
This load stayed subsonic in 100 degree heat.

Works my 10.5 gas gun and is hovering around 1 moa in my 16 inch bolt gun depending on my driving that day. Have some cherry picked sub groups someplace.

I have not bothered trying any other powders.

I have yet to try any of the other good sub bullets available.
I should get off my ass since the 220 interlock doesn't expand at sub velocity but at 100 yards and less don't matter much.
 
Pet load in 300 bo

12.1g cfeblk / 220 hornady fbrn interlock. Needs the 1/7 twist.
This load stayed subsonic in 100 degree heat.

Works my 10.5 gas gun and is hovering around 1 moa in my 16 inch bolt gun depending on my driving that day. Have some cherry picked sub groups someplace.

I have not bothered trying any other powders.

I have yet to try any of the other good sub bullets available.
I should get off my ass since the 220 interlock doesn't expand at sub velocity but at 100 yards and less don't matter much.
Check out Maker bullets. I use the 200 and 220 Rex. I limit my shots to 100 yards or less and they have always performed flawlessly. Make sure you have the twist for the heavier ones though.
 
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OK, tried loading some .300BO yesterday. Can't find a load start for Trail Boss, but I don't think it's going to work. With the 220-gr round nose sp bullets I have, seated to mage length, I can only get max of 4-gr of TB in the case. I tried using the Hornady guide, but 9-gr was too much to even fit in the case.

Any normal powders that work for Subs in .300BO?
I’m using 13.0 grains of CFE BLK with 220 Berry’s at 2.220”, CCI 450’s in winchester brass. Chrono’d them at 1015, no issues cycling. 10.5” barrel.
 
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Some of yall might find this interesting... Pretty damn accurate for an AR with subtonics... It impressed me, and it's my gun. 😂

This is my custom (frankengun) 16" .300 BLK built with top-tier parts, and shooting my subsonic handloads with Berger 210 VLD's, 10.5 grains of Alliant 300-MP, CCI 400 primers, and factory Remington .300 BLK brass, and seated to JUST barely slide in the PMag.

 
Got BLK? 😏

Just got done cutting down, forming and loading up a couple hundred high-quality 220 subs for the range and plinking. 👍🏼

FYI, if you’re OCD like me, and you notice the stupid little details… I wrote the label yesterday… 😂

F469E0C5-02FC-4029-B625-D4893C2DEBA5.jpeg
 
Got BLK? 😏

Just got done cutting down, forming and loading up a couple hundred high-quality 220 subs for the range and plinking. 👍🏼

FYI, if you’re OCD like me, and you notice the stupid little details… I wrote the label yesterday… 😂

View attachment 7630201
What twist rate? I just bought a bunch of Berry's 220s and have seen conflicting info about them working in a faster than 1:7 twist. I have a 1:5. For the moment, I'm in "send it" mode. :)
 
What twist rate? I just bought a bunch of Berry's 220s and have seen conflicting info about them working in a faster than 1:7 twist. I have a 1:5. For the moment, I'm in "send it" mode. :)
1:8.5” I built the rifle many years ago, before 1:7 became the norm, and now 1:5…
 
1/5 is specifically for heavy bullets,I shoot 247gr out of 1/7 and 1/8 everyday.Ordered a 1/5 barrel.
 
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Hi everyone! New here, but not a newbie to Trail Boss and reloading.
I'd like to say that you guys are light years ahead of most folks with your research with TB!

I will begin some testing with Moly bullets in 204, and 17 cal Rem. I have 25, and 30g bullets for 17 cal, and 32 and 35g bullets for the 204.

Have a CZ 527 Varmint in 17 rem, amd R-15 204cal

In His service
Lane
Lane, were are you getting your 30g 17 cal bullets?
 
1/5 is specifically for heavy bullets,I shoot 247gr out of 1/7 and 1/8 everyday.Ordered a 1/5 barrel.
Yea, it's not a stabilization issue. It's an issue of possibly borderline too fast of a twist on a plated bullet and the plating is being damaged and depositing in the bore, along with possible lead fouling.
 
With a 1-10 twist 16" barrel 308 what bullet weight would you suggest with Trail Boss. I have been shooting 10 grains 155g NOSLER .
 
I have been using 190 since I have so many
You would probably start with 9 -9.5 grains I am guessing
 
I have been using 190 since I have so many
You would probably start with 9 -9.5 grains I am guessing
Thanks I have loaded up 15 rounds in 9g with 165 heads. Hoping this will be a little quieter as I have loaded 10g with 155 heads and a bit loud but good to 100mts.
Thanks for the feedback .
 
OK, tried loading some .300BO yesterday. Can't find a load start for Trail Boss, but I don't think it's going to work. With the 220-gr round nose sp bullets I have, seated to mage length, I can only get max of 4-gr of TB in the case. I tried using the Hornady guide, but 9-gr was too much to even fit in the case.

Any normal powders that work for Subs in .300BO?
CFE Black and Accurate 1680 will cycle the action. If you have trouble with cycling you can use a lighter spring and some people have said on other forums that sometimes it is helpful to enlarge the gas port hole to 1/8".
 
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Noticed recently with the weather getting warmer, that my “subsonic” .300 BLK load was no longer subsonic. 🤦🏼 The 16” barrel already makes it a bitch to keep loads subsonic, but now I’m fighting both. 😑

So, I loaded up a few with 1/2 grain less of Alliant 300-MP with CCI 450’s in some cut-down WCC 5.56 brass, and strapped the MSv2 on the end of the Sandman-S, and walked out to the big empty berm along the driveway. Popped off 3 real quick, nothing went super, so I was happy. Then I looked at the MSv2, and was really happy. Only 21 fps ES, and an 11 SD. Not bad for .300 BLK subs! I will be taking the old MagnetoSpeed to the range with me tomorrow, and will get more data, and shoot for groups @ 100. 👍🏼

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First kill with the custom .300 BLK with the Dead Air Sandman-S and my newly revamped 220 subsonic handloads.

1 shot, 1 kill… Right through the back of the head, and it exited through the mouth. It was a free-hand shot from about 10 yards away, instinct shot (I didn’t look through the scope). It started moving, and was in some fallen timber being burned for clearing, and I was going to lose my shot-window, so I had to take my shot ASAP.

Luckily, I spent many years instinctually shooting archery and bowfishing, so I am a bit of a natural shot. I don’t brag about much, but I will occasionally brag about my shooting skills. [emoji57][emoji1360]

Stretched-out this timber rattler is right at 47-48” in length, and about 3.5” at the girth.

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73194EAD-6640-49E4-B2CD-66CD1C74075B.jpeg

3C7D5E6C-6F34-4F6F-8C32-0FED76DA1359.jpeg
 
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New video is up comparing the Dead Air Nomad-LT with the new Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-L on my 16" .300 BLK with my 220 subsonic handloads...

 
Noticed recently with the weather getting warmer, that my “subsonic” .300 BLK load was no longer subsonic. 🤦🏼 The 16” barrel already makes it a bitch to keep loads subsonic, but now I’m fighting both. 😑

So, I loaded up a few with 1/2 grain less of Alliant 300-MP with CCI 450’s in some cut-down WCC 5.56 brass, and strapped the MSv2 on the end of the Sandman-S, and walked out to the big empty berm along the driveway. Popped off 3 real quick, nothing went super, so I was happy. Then I looked at the MSv2, and was really happy. Only 21 fps ES, and an 11 SD. Not bad for .300 BLK subs! I will be taking the old MagnetoSpeed to the range with me tomorrow, and will get more data, and shoot for groups @ 100. 👍🏼

View attachment 7847113
You need to get some VV N120 for that rifle.
 
You need to get some VV N120 for that rifle.
Well... I've got A LOT of 300-MP to burn through before I can swap powders... Back in the day (Obama ban era 2012/2013) I couldn't find any H110 for my .357 Mags, .44 Mags, & .300 BLK, and I found an 8 lbs. jug of Alliant 300-MP for like $150 + shipping & hazmat. And I couldn't turn that down, since the burn rate on it is almost identical to H110, and it was in stock. Not long after buying it, I started finding some single pounds of H110 here and there, and started buying it up, and the 300-MP sat around collecting dust (literally). I used to always load my .300 BLK with H110, but one day I remembered I had this huge jug of 300-MP in the closet, and started researching exact burn rates, etc... and found nothing. So I got curious and decided to just dive in head-first, and do my own damn load development from absolute scratch. I'm kind of crazy like that...I like wildcatting, so I'm not afraid to start from nothing and figure it out.

And at around 10gr of powder per round of subsonic .300 BLK, it will take me about 5,600 rounds before I burn through that jug. I'm definitely about 1/4 of the way there. I've been tearing it up with the .300 BLK since I got my suppressors. 😂
 
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AA1680 is my go to 300blk subs powder but I ran out months ago. I have 8+ lbs of CFE Black from my 300HamR I sold so I worked up these 220smk 300subs and I was pleasantly suprised. Very happy with the accuracy and stupid quiet out of my 10.5" Rainier Ultramatch.




 
Well... I've got A LOT of 300-MP to burn through before I can swap powders... Back in the day (Obama ban era 2012/2013) I couldn't find any H110 for my .357 Mags, .44 Mags, & .300 BLK, and I found an 8 lbs. jug of Alliant 300-MP for like $150 + shipping & hazmat. And I couldn't turn that down, since the burn rate on it is almost identical to H110, and it was in stock. Not long after buying it, I started finding some single pounds of H110 here and there, and started buying it up, and the 300-MP sat around collecting dust (literally). I used to always load my .300 BLK with H110, but one day I remembered I had this huge jug of 300-MP in the closet, and started researching exact burn rates, etc... and found nothing. So I got curious and decided to just dive in head-first, and do my own damn load development from absolute scratch. I'm kind of crazy like that...I like wildcatting, so I'm not afraid to start from nothing and figure it out.

And at around 10gr of powder per round of subsonic .300 BLK, it will take me about 5,600 rounds before I burn through that jug. I'm definitely about 1/4 of the way there. I've been tearing it up with the .300 BLK since I got my suppressors. 😂
I'm kind of the same, I got like couple of lbs of VV Tinstar that I originally used in both 300BLK and 308 for subsonic bolt loads. But I ended up preferring VV N330 for 300BLK Subs (faster burn rate, lower ES) and Trailboss for 308 (better case fill than TS)

So pretty much my Tinstar would be used only for light 300blk subs (175-190s) and/or super heavy subs in 308 that would exceed 100% case fill with TB like Hornady 225 bthp, SMK 230/240, etc. And at about 7gr-10 per load, 1 lbs gives you 800-1000 rounds so it'll last a long time which is not a bad thing with the current shortages. Plus at the price of match 22lr, you're almost better off with loading your own 300blk sub.

For bolt guns 300BLK subs my powder of choice would be

Sub under 135 gr - Trailboss
Sub 135-175 Tinstar
Sub 190-200 & 208 Amax - N330 but ~60K PSI with the 208s according to QL but stupid accurate and super tight ES that it is my dedicate 400m sub load for a 3moa steel.
Sub 225gr and heavier/longer - N105

For 308 Bolts

Sub 168-208gr - Trailboss
Sub 208gr and heavier - Tinstar

For 300 BLK gassers

Sub 175-240gr - N120 works all the time in pretty much all configurations, just a wee bit dirtier and louder but will give incredible accuracy and ES in the single digits with a bit of brass prep and an accurate scale. It's very similar to 1680 but way cleaner and for me, better accuracy and ES.
Sub 225gr and heavier - N110 - might not hold the last round bolt open depending on buffer weight and gas port size.
Sub 225gr and heavier with custom AGB, lightweight BCG and adjustable JP buffer - N105 -> This will most likely not cycle without quite a bit of tuning but for a dedicated subsonic upper, it'll be clean, quiet and accurate. Couple of guys on the 300blk forums are running those.

Not sure what are the American powder equivalents but I remember 1680 being dirty in subs but great for heavy supersonics like the Gold Dots 150s which group really really well. I still have a couple of lbs in my storage. 1680 will always be super reliable due to the burn rate, you could cycle heavy subs without a can at like 850 FPS.

AA#9 can be a really good choice if building a custom upper with a AGB.
 
Saw a new thread today that sparked me to do some deeper hands-on research with my .308 Win subs...

So... I broke out the MSv2, and did some driveway velocity testing to stay under 1,100 FPS with both CCI 200 and 250 magnum primers WITHOUT drilling the flash holes to 9/64" just to see if I would get any hangfires... Nope. All shots were perfect. 👍🏼 So, contrary to what I was told, and what I've always done, I can now feel confident in skipping that time-consuming step of drilling out all the flash holes. I did get some interesting results though...

I tested with both Nosler 168 Custom Comps and Berger 210 VLD's, using "FC 308" (Federal) commercial .308 Win brass, and Trail Boss powder.

All shots were taken with my 22" 5R Milspec .308 Win and shot THROUGH my Sandman-S, with my Magnetospeed V2 strapped onto the suppressor for real-world results. No accuracy testing yet (will come soon), I was just shooting 20' away into a dirt mound to get a general velocity range for my powder charges.

Nosler 168 Custom Comps / CCI 200 (LR):

9.0 - 1,047 FPS MV
9.5 - 1,096

Nosler 168 Custom Comp / CCI 250 (Magnum LR):

9.0 - 1045
9.5 - 1,126

2nd test @ 9.0gr with 168 Custom Comps and CCI 200 & CCI 250 primers to check accuracy/consistency of first results:

CCI 200 - 9.0gr - 1,047
CCI 250 - 9.0gr - 1,047

Berger 210 VLDs / CCI 200 (LR):

10.0 - 901
10.5 - 926
11.0 - 986
11.5 - 1,075
12.0 - 1,116

Final opinions... The 250 Magnum primers seemed to not produce as tight or consistent velocity spreads, as with the CCI 200's. The velocities tend to jump all over the place. Sometimes they go super, sometimes they stay subsonic... It's just a less-consistent ignition, with subsonics from my testing. My groups are also always tighter with CCI 200's in subsonics, as well, which would also lend to my inconsistent ignition with magnum primers in subsonics theory. I have noticed this in my .300 BLK subs, as well.

Also, I have found that the 168's don't produce as consistent velocity increases as the heavier 210 VLDs... I am not sure if this is due to the fact of me seating the 210's much deeper into the case, and taking up more case room to help alleviate some of the empty space inside of the cartridges, or not, but it appears that the heavier the bullets, the more consistent the results with the .308 Win subsonics from my quick tests today. I will test more in-depth on this in the future. And get some accuracy test results and groups in the future. This will be a fun project, as I have tons of 210 VLDs sitting around that I don't shoot very often.
 
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I always used Fed 210m for my 308win subs and got single digits ES/SD. Never had any issue with igniting trailboss or Tinstar but I always plan my load to have at least 80% case fill.
 
Reminder for posterity, and safety: work your loads down, not up, and always check for keyholing before mounting your can.

.308 Win Subsonic
16.5" Barrel Rem700
10 twist
Federal LC brass, factory flash hole, full length sized.
CCI 200
10.8gr Trailboss
Sierra 200gr SGK
COAL of 2.810" fits in AICS mags.

Printed a wallered out clover-leaf 5 round group at 100 yards, 5000'DA. Must be running at the ragged edge of subsonic velocity, round 6 produced a sonic crack as it headed down range, but it cooked in the chamber a bit as there was some nonsense going on a few lanes down that stole my attention for a minute. Hate to goof with a load that shoots like that, but tempted to back it down so a warm day or a hot chamber doesn't wreck my suppressed performance.

For the data hounds, I am not measuring velocity, SD, or ES. Just keeping a few rounds in my hunting pack for close range targets of opportunity so as not to spook the game I'm actually after. Was shooting a very consistent 3 mil low and .5 left between supersonic rounds at 100, so 3 up and .5 right becomes my zero offset. Easy squeezy.