Surprising neck tension test ... (at least it surprised me)

[CK1.0]

I going to throw it back to what @rustyinbend was mentionoing way back in post #55 about feel while seating bullets, and chime in that I'll cosign those who put in the extra work to lube necks before seating bullets (I just had to find a way that was fast, easy, and low drama enough for me to actually employ and stick to)...

I think when it comes to seating bullets, size does matter. I've been seating bullets on my cheap ass little fucker Lyman press for 3+ years now and I still dig it. It's still the only press I use for all of my precision rifle ammo and I think a lot of that has to do with its small size. The feel it provides is unmatched by larger presses.

Even when FL sizing cases, where obviously a larger press with more leverage would make things easier, it turns out, if cases are lubed properly, the little fucker provides plenty of leverage. But, unlike a big press, I still can feel if something is fucked up or not right immediately (and usually stop before it's too late).

Anyways, for seating bullets, the little press allows me to literally feel whether the batch of rounds I'm loading is going to be good or not. I know whether I'm in single-digit SD territory by muscle memory at this point.

Now, at my club, there's an RCBS Rockchucker for guys to use, and I've used it exactly one time to seat some bullets while doing some load development on a new barrel... it sucked donkey balls, never again, zero* feel. If that's all you know, you're missing out and I kind of feel bad for you lol.

*Speaking of "zero", maybe not a bad time to mention that I'm not using the little Lyman because I'm poor lol. I could buy ~10 A419 Zero presses today if I wanted or needed to before my wife noticed and gave me shit about it lol... money spent is not the point, more funds doesn't necessarily equal better ammo in this reloading game.

But, IMHO, if you've got ~$100 bucks or so (I know a lot of us guys can't go outside without it costing that much), take a hard look at picking up a little press for just seating bullets (or maybe everything), there are a couple of others besides the Lyman too if you don't like Tennessee orange, hear me now, believe me later.



Also, once you have a really good feel while seating bullets, even slight variations in seating pressure become super annoying.

After trying a bunch of different shit to lube necks, almost all of which were annoying and slow, some somewhat sketchy/messy (moly, graphite dust, etc), I arrived at this:



Same shit many of you and I use to lube our cases for sizing: lanolin & IPA ...and a q-tip.

I get the q-tip saturated with lube, and then, with a steady hand, I do a quick swirl in each neck while they're in the loading block (taking care to not insert the q-tip deep enough to touch/disturb the powder). The trick is: I'm not trying to apply much lube, the cotton from the q-tip does all the work. Takes ~20 seconds to do 100 cases.

After, seating bullets is smooooooooth.

The alcohol evaporates, and the friction fit of the brass overcomes whatever lube left behind if it wasn't smeared out of the way while the bullet slid into place (no need to worry about bullets shifting or moving after), nice. ;-)

Anyways, worth a try, I do it every single batch now because I've seen the results downrange and I feel like I'd be leaving something on the table if I skipped it now.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Shortening the lever on any press will increase the effort necessary to size brass and seat bullets. The lever on the 419 press is actually adjustable to decrease it's length.

 

[Yondering]

I going to throw it back to what @rustyinbend was mentionoing way back in post #55 about feel while seating bullets, and chime in that I'll cosign those who put in the extra work to lube necks before seating bullets (I just had to find a way that was fast, easy, and low drama enough for me to actually employ and stick to)...

I think when it comes to seating bullets, size does matter. I've been seating bullets on my cheap ass little fucker Lyman press for 3+ years now and I still dig it. It's still the only press I use for all of my precision rifle ammo and I think a lot of that has to do with its small size. The feel it provides is unmatched by larger presses.

Even when FL sizing cases, where obviously a larger press with more leverage would make things easier, it turns out, if cases are lubed properly, the little fucker provides plenty of leverage. But, unlike a big press, I still can feel if something is fucked up or not right immediately (and usually stop before it's too late).

Anyways, for seating bullets, the little press allows me to literally feel whether the batch of rounds I'm loading is going to be good or not. I know whether I'm in single-digit SD territory by muscle memory at this point.

Now, at my club, there's an RCBS Rockchucker for guys to use, and I've used it exactly one time to seat some bullets while doing some load development on a new barrel... it sucked donkey balls, never again, zero* feel. If that's all you know, you're missing out and I kind of feel bad for you lol.

*Speaking of "zero", maybe not a bad time to mention that I'm not using the little Lyman because I'm poor lol. I could buy ~10 A419 Zero presses today if I wanted or needed to before my wife noticed and gave me shit about it lol... money spent is not the point, more funds doesn't necessarily equal better ammo in this reloading game.

But, IMHO, if you've got ~$100 bucks or so (I know a lot of us guys can't go outside without it costing that much), take a hard look at picking up a little press for just seating bullets (or maybe everything), there are a couple of others besides the Lyman too if you don't like Tennessee orange, hear me now, believe me later.

View attachment 8045393View attachment 8045396

Also, once you have a really good feel while seating bullets, even slight variations in seating pressure become super annoying.

After trying a bunch of different shit to lube necks, almost all of which were annoying and slow, some somewhat sketchy/messy (moly, graphite dust, etc), I arrived at this:

View attachment 8045408

Same shit many of you and I use to lube our cases for sizing: lanolin & IPA ...and a q-tip.

I get the q-tip saturated with lube, and then, with a steady hand, I do a quick swirl in each neck while they're in the loading block (taking care to not insert the q-tip deep enough to touch/disturb the powder). The trick is: I'm not trying to apply much lube, the cotton from the q-tip does all the work. Takes ~20 seconds to do 100 cases.

After, seating bullets is smooooooooth.

The alcohol evaporates, and the friction fit of the brass overcomes whatever lube left behind if it wasn't smeared out of the way while the bullet slid into place (no need to worry about bullets shifting or moving after), nice. ;-)

Anyways, worth a try, I do it every single batch now because I've seen the results downrange and I feel like I'd be leaving something on the table if I skipped it now.

As always, YMMV.

Speaking of lanolin and solvent in the case necks - I've been using the same method, but have been experimenting a bit and arrived there with a different method - I rinse the whole batch of cases in solvent that has a small amount of lanolin dissolved in it, then drain and dry them. This does leave a very light film of lube on the outside too of course, but nothing like when cases are lubed for sizing; it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Originally I was just rinsing batches of cases in laquer thinner after sizing to remove most of the lube. I'd retain that solvent and use it several times; after a while of course I noticed it leaving this lanolin film, along with reduced and more consistent seating force. For best control over the lanolin film, of course, it's best to have a jar of solvent dedicated just to that, and use a separate batch of solvent for cleaning sizing lube off, otherwise it tends to build up more and more lube.

A note on drying the cases - my shop layout is such that I can get away with lighting the solvent and burning it off the cases, but I wouldn't do that inside the house or something. I just dump the cases in a large cake pan, light it, and then shake them around gently as it burns off; that may leave a more consistent lube film than just air drying, I'm not sure and haven't tried that way.

 

[iceng]

I'm poor lol.

You read it here first folks.

Also, nice post. I run 2x RCBS rock chuckers. I seat with a Arbor. I agree with the feel thing.

 

[Rider47]

I going to throw it back to what @rustyinbend was mentionoing way back in post #55 about feel while seating bullets, and chime in that I'll cosign those who put in the extra work to lube necks before seating bullets (I just had to find a way that was fast, easy, and low drama enough for me to actually employ and stick to)...

I think when it comes to seating bullets, size does matter. I've been seating bullets on my cheap ass little fucker Lyman press for 3+ years now and I still dig it. It's still the only press I use for all of my precision rifle ammo and I think a lot of that has to do with its small size. The feel it provides is unmatched by larger presses.

Even when FL sizing cases, where obviously a larger press with more leverage would make things easier, it turns out, if cases are lubed properly, the little fucker provides plenty of leverage. But, unlike a big press, I still can feel if something is fucked up or not right immediately (and usually stop before it's too late).

Anyways, for seating bullets, the little press allows me to literally feel whether the batch of rounds I'm loading is going to be good or not. I know whether I'm in single-digit SD territory by muscle memory at this point.

Now, at my club, there's an RCBS Rockchucker for guys to use, and I've used it exactly one time to seat some bullets while doing some load development on a new barrel... it sucked donkey balls, never again, zero* feel. If that's all you know, you're missing out and I kind of feel bad for you lol.

*Speaking of "zero", maybe not a bad time to mention that I'm not using the little Lyman because I'm poor lol. I could buy ~10 A419 Zero presses today if I wanted or needed to before my wife noticed and gave me shit about it lol... money spent is not the point, more funds doesn't necessarily equal better ammo in this reloading game.

But, IMHO, if you've got ~$100 bucks or so (I know a lot of us guys can't go outside without it costing that much), take a hard look at picking up a little press for just seating bullets (or maybe everything), there are a couple of others besides the Lyman too if you don't like Tennessee orange, hear me now, believe me later.

View attachment 8045393View attachment 8045396

Also, once you have a really good feel while seating bullets, even slight variations in seating pressure become super annoying.

After trying a bunch of different shit to lube necks, almost all of which were annoying and slow, some somewhat sketchy/messy (moly, graphite dust, etc), I arrived at this:

View attachment 8045408

Same shit many of you and I use to lube our cases for sizing: lanolin & IPA ...and a q-tip.

I get the q-tip saturated with lube, and then, with a steady hand, I do a quick swirl in each neck while they're in the loading block (taking care to not insert the q-tip deep enough to touch/disturb the powder). The trick is: I'm not trying to apply much lube, the cotton from the q-tip does all the work. Takes ~20 seconds to do 100 cases.

After, seating bullets is smooooooooth.

The alcohol evaporates, and the friction fit of the brass overcomes whatever lube left behind if it wasn't smeared out of the way while the bullet slid into place (no need to worry about bullets shifting or moving after), nice. ;-)

Anyways, worth a try, I do it every single batch now because I've seen the results downrange and I feel like I'd be leaving something on the table if I skipped it now.

As always, YMMV.

Regarding the lanolin/inside necks idea, I thought it might be less messy than moly. I experimented with a couple of solvents and found that lanolin is not soluble in 91% IPA (isopropyl alcohol???), nor xylene, but somewhat so in GunScrubber. The GS/LL mixture is easy to apply and the GS volatilizes off quickly.

I have set up a test with my 30BR, (no coating vs. moly vs. lanolin), but as we have had relatively high winds for quite some time, it may be a while before I have range results.

 

[iceng]

This is an interesting idea. Nice work.

 

[Haney]

Regarding the lanolin/inside necks idea, I thought it might be less messy than moly. I experimented with a couple of solvents and found that lanolin is not soluble in 91% IPA (isopropyl alcohol???), nor xylene, but somewhat so in GunScrubber. The GS/LL mixture is easy to apply and the GS volatilizes off quickly.

I have set up a test with my 30BR, (no coating vs. moly vs. lanolin), but as we have had relatively high winds for quite some time, it may be a while before I have range results.

I use 99 percent IPA , I shake the crap out of it while spraying and it seems to mix . I get brass with a light film after the alcohol flashes off . I can't say for certain it's mixed 100 percent but it works fine through a pump sprayer . Cool experiment, I will follow along for your results .

 

[morganlamprecht]

Circling back to the neck tension testing... Based on my own experience, I'd say the consistency of the surface finish on the neck ID is definitely worth paying attention to, particularly if you are trying to compare/contrast seating forces. You don't necessarily need to go nuts with cleaning to bare metal, polishing or special lubes - though you can if you like. Simply brushing the neck after dry tumbling works pretty darn well.

And a handful of gauge pins off Amazon will answer a *lot* of questions regarding the effects of various things that you may be doing to your case necks - sizing with bushings, expanding with mandrels, annealing, etc. You can calculate *this* bushing combined with *that* mandrel, allow X amount for brass spring back, etc. etc... or just measure with a pin gauge for a slip fit.

ill 2nd this...when i bought the arbor press with force gauge to verify my process way back, i found the inside neck condition had more to do with seating force/consistency than actual size

i could take a neck ID made .002 under bullet diameter that had left over annealing/lube residue and half ass dry tumbled and it would have seating force higher than the gauge could measure...while a clean/smooth neck .002-.004 under would all have less and be around/near acceptable ranges

in the end i settled on a process that was easily repeatable and the gauge verified that makes my inside necks a consistent condition and a finished ID size .002-.003 under bullet diameter...been all good since

i also found the same Rusty mentioned in post #55...if you can feel the bullet seat at all on a heavy duty press (mine is a redding big boss)...its probably well up there in seating pressure on the arbor/gauge

 

[CK1.0]

Regarding the lanolin/inside necks idea, I thought it might be less messy than moly. I experimented with a couple of solvents and found that lanolin is not soluble in 91% IPA (isopropyl alcohol???), nor xylene, but somewhat so in GunScrubber. The GS/LL mixture is easy to apply and the GS volatilizes off quickly.

I have set up a test with my 30BR, (no coating vs. moly vs. lanolin), but as we have had relatively high winds for quite some time, it may be a while before I have range results.

I always thought of the Lanolin/IPA mix as more of an "Italian salad dressing" sort of arrangement than a true "mix" lol... with the alcohol just acting as a carrier to spread the lanolin out before evaporating (always remember to shake well first doh).

I am curious how the Lanolin/GS combo does for you though..? I just hope the GS doesn't remain oily, because I'd guess that might lead to the bullets moving around in the case mouths after being loaded (like on the drive to the range, or when I throw my giant PRS/Kitchen-sink pack in and out of the truck, etc lol).

 

[memilanuk]

ill 2nd this...when i bought the arbor press with force gauge to verify my process way back, i found the inside neck condition had more to do with seating force/consistency than actual size

i could take a neck ID made .002 under bullet diameter that had left over annealing/lube residue and half ass dry tumbled and it would have seating force higher than the gauge could measure...while a clean/smooth neck .002-.004 under would all have less and be around/near acceptable ranges

Good to know I wasn't the only one. I though either I was going nuts, or that K&M force gauge (and later DC hydro seater) were full of $hit...

in the end i settled on a process that was easily repeatable and the gauge verified that makes my inside necks a consistent condition and a finished ID size .002-.003 under bullet diameter...been all good since

i also found the same Rusty mentioned in post #55...if you can feel the bullet seat at all on a heavy duty press (mine is a redding big boss)...its probably well up there in seating pressure on the arbor/gauge

I had a pretty consistent 'feel' process going on my 550 there for a while when I was loading 'precision' ammo on that. Basically I'd bring the handle down to a few inches from full travel, and let it 'fall' - more of a 'bump', really. Lift it an inch or so, and let it fall again. Surprisingly consistent seating depths (granted, I was using sleeved micrometer seaters from Redding or Forster) and good results on both the chrono and target. But to your point... the only 'feel' to the process was just a bit of hesitation as the handle fell - if a person were hanging onto the handle firmly, I'm not sure it would have been noticeable.

 

[Yondering]

I always thought of the Lanolin/IPA mix as more of an "Italian salad dressing" sort of arrangement than a true "mix" lol... with the alcohol just acting as a carrier to spread the lanolin out before evaporating (always remember to shake well first doh).

I am curious how the Lanolin/GS combo does for you though..? I just hope the GS doesn't remain oily, because I'd guess that might lead to the bullets moving around in the case mouths after being loaded (like on the drive to the range, or when I throw my giant PRS/Kitchen-sink pack in and out of the truck, etc lol).

For some reason alcohol (rubbing alcohol, IPA, or whatever other name people care to use) is commonly promoted as a solvent in the gun community, but the reality is that it's not very good at dissolving a lot of the things we work with. The "salad dressing" mix is about as good as you can hope for; it's not actually dissolved, just little bubbles of the oil or lanolin floating around in there, and eventually they'll settle out again.

If you have to shake it, it's not dissolved.

I don't use Gun Scrubber and am not sure what's in it, but from the pics above it appears to do the same thing as good old lacquer thinner, at least in dissolving lanolin. When I use lacquer thinner with lanolin it's cloudy like that at first, but then eventually turns a golden clear color with no residue at the bottom, indicating it's fully dissolved.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of different solvents leaving the brass surface more or less oily - that's just a factor of how much lanolin you use. For our purposes here the difference in solvents is just in how fast it evaporates, another reason I like to use lacquer thinner for this.