....the ole' Armson OEG
Rifle Scopes Switched from Aimpoint to EOtech thanks to US Optics!
- Thread starter Mrgichoke
- Start date
That is a 2005 article.
YES!!!!! Aweome bit of firearms trivia for you to pull that out of your hat. I'm impressed. I confirmed it by visiting Trijicon's website to make sure that was it. I didn't realize the sight was that old (1981) when I selected it, but at the time (1994) it was lightyears ahead of the current choices. I had it mounted on a Colt CAR 9mm, so its sole purpose in life was a CQB/Patrol carbine back when many LE Agencies required pistol-caliber carbines.
Had I realized how "vintage" that thing was I wouldn't have sold it along with the 9mm CAR. It was funny to see people try to look "through" it and tell me it was broken, getting them used to the idea of both eyes open and focusing on a target was a foreign idea.
Another thing I've noticed, is that guys with old eyes, like mine, have a hard time with Red Dots. The well defined dot actually looks like a Lightning Bolt. My solution has been to use the rear BUIS that co-witnesses with the optic, I don't raise the front BUIS unless shooting for distance. The small aperture really crisps-up the dot nicely.
I'll never forget the OEG. My father - MSG, US Army (Ret) - took me out to an old ratty cabin in the mountains he was working on every single weekend during the summer of '87 and taught me everything I know about marksmanship fundamentals. He had an old XM177, I beleive it was one of the 609s, that had an OEG mounted to the carry handle. I recall wanting to shoot it soooooo bad. I remember having to detail strip it and recite back to him the purpose of each part and reassemble it in working order. Even though I was only 6 and it took me about half of the summer to get it right, I finally did it. After hand cleaning what seemed to be 1000+ pieces of spent brass we'd already run through with different platforms the old man and I spent the last 6 weekends of that summer shooting the CAR-15 exclusively. Hence, I learned from a pretty young age to shoot both eyes open. I couldn't even figure out how to close one eye anyway. I still shoot most variable mag optics BEO.
You know what, maybe that's why folks occasionally feel uncomfortable with the technique. If all you know is squinting through a variable optic through which you acquire your target it might be difficult to undo the habit when using a 1x parallax free set up. Maybe the design of the EOTech somehow helps people in that regard. It'd be interesting to see someone run a T1 who claims to have FOV issues and see what issues stand out.
Anyway, I know we've beat the issue to death, so I'll leave it at...... LETS GO BACK TO THE OEG!!
The OEG: did you have any impression of its fragility? I keep visualizing snapping the front off of it since the tritium rod protruded from the front and was only "protected" by that little plastic cap. Nowadays I'd look at it and be like "I'm going to break this on a doorjamb or something". Back then, red dot sights were the size of toilet paper tubes so the OEG was the shit. Aimpoint has come a LONG way from their early models.
I remember when they (red dots) began dominating the race guns: I went out to the range on a Friday afternoon to practice some reloads for a Saturday IPSC match (I was the only revolver shooter) and the rangemaster was out there painting red polka-dots on all the targets. I asked him if he was feeling pretty that day and he (who was still shooting limited at the time) said he was "fucking tired of all these guys with red dots" so he was painting the polka dots on the targets to see if it fucked with their sight pictures and slowed them down a bit.
The OEG: did you have any impression of its fragility? I keep visualizing snapping the front off of it since the tritium rod protruded from the front and was only "protected" by that little plastic cap. Nowadays I'd look at it and be like "I'm going to break this on a doorjamb or something". Back then, red dot sights were the size of toilet paper tubes so the OEG was the shit. Aimpoint has come a LONG way from their early models.
I remember when they (red dots) began dominating the race guns: I went out to the range on a Friday afternoon to practice some reloads for a Saturday IPSC match (I was the only revolver shooter) and the rangemaster was out there painting red polka-dots on all the targets. I asked him if he was feeling pretty that day and he (who was still shooting limited at the time) said he was "fucking tired of all these guys with red dots" so he was painting the polka dots on the targets to see if it fucked with their sight pictures and slowed them down a bit.
Hahaha! That's a pretty good idea. I wonder if it worked?
The last time I shot Pops' Colt - still sporting the OEG - was over 10 years ago, so my recollection of it's build quality is hazy at best. At that time I was using ACOGs on my own rigs so I thought the OEG was far from the Rambo As Fuck piece of kit that I thought it was growing up. I think the main tube and housing is relatively well built and recall the sight being rather heavy for what it was. And yes, the one thing making it look alien-like was the protruding plastic cap on the end with the fiber optic spike inside. It oddly had adjustment knobs on the forward end of the main housing. In order to co-witness with irons the hood on the front sight was ENORMOUS! Today that rig sits in a display case at a lonely cabin in the NW Rockies. No more action for the ole OEG anytime soon...
I still run a couple of Armson OEG and have replaced the tritium on both of them myself (only solution these days). They're great for getting iron sight trained personnel off the front sight, front sight, front sight concept. Of course, one can just close a front cover on a red dot and accomplish the same thing. I've set up a couple guns for high risk warrant friends (they had a departmental approved list). We went with CompM4s for the 2 MOA dot and battery life (This was before the 2 MOA T1). These guys need the dots on when they grab the gun so the dots stay on. Can only do that with Aimpoint. These guys train to 200 meters, anything past that and they bring in swat.
The FOV talk is just silly (actually just fucking retarded). That's all I really wanted to post, carry on.
The FOV talk is just silly (actually just fucking retarded). That's all I really wanted to post, carry on.
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No argument RC. Finding support for the position was... Limited
Aimpoint Comp Series, EOTech, Trijicon RMR, Leupold CQT, Trijicon ACOG 1.5x
We are allowed to put a 3x magnifier behind a red dot but can't have a 3x ACOG. The list is years old, antiquated, doesn't reflect new available choices (T1 for example) and completely leaves out variable power optics. It needs updating bad but we'll probably have to muddle through a full blown terrorist attack before it changes.
I can't finish reading this whole thread because it is seriously pissing me off for some reason. I made it about half way down the first page.
With that said, to the OP, congratulations on finding something you like.
But without turning this into a brand vs. brand thing, if you try to argue anything "Field of View" related to a reflex or red dot, you are not using it correctly and your point is invalid.
Understand the Bindon Aiming Concept, non dominant eye sees the entire engagement area, dominant eye sees reticle, brain super-imposes what the dominant eye sees over to the engagement area.
This goes against traditional fundamentals as you are more focused on the target than the reticle. Wierd? A little at first but that's why you practice. Field of View on these sights is not a thing if you use the sight properly.
And the thing about the square view of the holosight when clearing rooms is about the dumbest FUCKING thing I've ever heard. You don't clear while being sucked in to your sights, this is called tunnel vision and likely to miss something important like a threat area or shooting the wrong person who may not be a threat. The sight is just below your Mark1 eyeball line of sight(weapon at the high ready to allow you to cover/clear all of your sector while gaining PID and determining who is a threat based on hands, eyes, waist and demeanor.
If I missed any Mil or LE responses that stated the same thing, my bust but I was way too Pissed at seeing some of the responses addressing/commenting on things that are non issues with these sights.
But what do I know, I've only done this shit for about the last eight years.
With that said, to the OP, congratulations on finding something you like.
But without turning this into a brand vs. brand thing, if you try to argue anything "Field of View" related to a reflex or red dot, you are not using it correctly and your point is invalid.
Understand the Bindon Aiming Concept, non dominant eye sees the entire engagement area, dominant eye sees reticle, brain super-imposes what the dominant eye sees over to the engagement area.
This goes against traditional fundamentals as you are more focused on the target than the reticle. Wierd? A little at first but that's why you practice. Field of View on these sights is not a thing if you use the sight properly.
And the thing about the square view of the holosight when clearing rooms is about the dumbest FUCKING thing I've ever heard. You don't clear while being sucked in to your sights, this is called tunnel vision and likely to miss something important like a threat area or shooting the wrong person who may not be a threat. The sight is just below your Mark1 eyeball line of sight(weapon at the high ready to allow you to cover/clear all of your sector while gaining PID and determining who is a threat based on hands, eyes, waist and demeanor.
If I missed any Mil or LE responses that stated the same thing, my bust but I was way too Pissed at seeing some of the responses addressing/commenting on things that are non issues with these sights.
But what do I know, I've only done this shit for about the last eight years.
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Thank you. Always great to see a little more input addressing the fundamental issue driving an opinion held by some (or many) that is completely erroneous. This is like seeing some of the shit on Gunbroker - like cantilever mounts turned backwards and the guy's going 'WTF this shit gives me less eye relief than a standard mount' - and wanting to scream, "brother, you're fucking DOING IT WRONG!"
One other thing, regarding use with NVG's, why would you mount your NVG's to your weapon?
If you can afford NVG's you can afford an IR laser.
Wear the NVG's on your head, either a halo(skull crusher) or Kevlar(helmet) mount.
Look up the offset that you need for the position on the rail you need to LBS the laser.
Mounting 14's to the weapon limits your uses and the NV units that are meant to be mounted to a weapon are more meant for precision work.
Last I checked RDS/reflex optics were meant for speed not precision.
If you can afford NVG's you can afford an IR laser.
Wear the NVG's on your head, either a halo(skull crusher) or Kevlar(helmet) mount.
Look up the offset that you need for the position on the rail you need to LBS the laser.
Mounting 14's to the weapon limits your uses and the NV units that are meant to be mounted to a weapon are more meant for precision work.
Last I checked RDS/reflex optics were meant for speed not precision.
Interesting thought. My dad and his fellow baby boomer friends have pretty much converted almost exclusively to red dots and lasers because they can't see anything else. If your dot looks like a lightning bolt it's either a bad dot (even aimpoints aren't perfect if you look close enough) or more likely you have astigmatism which is not age related and usually present from birth. Most people with astigmatism never realize they have it, but if it's bad you'll really notice it while using a fine red dot.
Personally, I've never been in combat, but I've used a T1 and an eotech for hunting, and the only time the Eotech gives me an advantage is that it's slightly quicker on big targets under 20 yards. For everything else, the more precise dot of the Aimpoint wins for me.
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^^^^^ that's some funny shit
I remember those (Armson OEG) from way back. They were some of the best kit on the market at the time. They worked great, as long as the screws had some type of thread locking compound.
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I had an eotech on my duty rifle for a bit, only shot maybe 50 rounds through the gun with it on and one day I was just carrying it inside and the bottom projector lens was just rattling around inside. Maybe I got a dud but after they fixed it (good customer service) I didn't trust them. I quickly sold it and got an aimpoint T1. Luckily the eotech didn't fail in a bad situation. Also I've had the same battery in it for three years on setting 7 and it's still ticking along.
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For anyone stating they are having a field of view issue with an Aimpoint, they obviously do not have a clue as to the use of a red dot sight. These threads only give fanboys of eotech a place to attempt to justify their purchase. Search the many forums and one will find nothing but issues with eotech. The military still uses beretta pistols. Based on the logic here, that makes them a better choice. ;-)
Most shooters will agree the EOTECH is very fast. I've never heard anyone say that the square shape of the EOTECH lens in relation to the geometry of a room blah-blah-blah. I don't like the EOTECH because I'm not willing to trust my life on a product I don't trust to take to the range. If you forget to turn your battery off a few times it might as well be broken. The same can't be said for an AIMPOINT, or a Trijicon. At least the EOTECH isn't heavy.
The AIMPOINT line is bulletproof. I've seen H1s on 870 slug guns & they refuse to go down. The battery life is like 7 years on a T1. If you forget to turn your battery off, who cares?
The Trijicon line has proven itself as very durable as well. I count on my ACOG everyday when I take it out & I've yet to be disappointed. It tracks accurately. Anything not in the 5 ring are solely my fault. It also doesn't require batteries.
I apologize for not being more specific in each case. I think ya'll get my point.
The AIMPOINT line is bulletproof. I've seen H1s on 870 slug guns & they refuse to go down. The battery life is like 7 years on a T1. If you forget to turn your battery off, who cares?
The Trijicon line has proven itself as very durable as well. I count on my ACOG everyday when I take it out & I've yet to be disappointed. It tracks accurately. Anything not in the 5 ring are solely my fault. It also doesn't require batteries.
I apologize for not being more specific in each case. I think ya'll get my point.
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Don't get me wrong.... for an absolute 1x close quarters fast acquisition AR where bug hole shooting as a weekend warrior is not your concern, then aimpoint (not eotech) is 100% the way to go.... and yes,,,, get a single point aimpoint & NOT eotech for the very reason I'm about to explain as magnifiers suck donkey balls WHEN NEEDED for detail work IMO & only add weight to the rifle (and yes I've owned both as all magnifiers have = crappy eye relief and produce ungodly weight to the AR)....
On the lowest visible red dot light setting, Co-witnessing the small A2 aperture of your REAR BUIS ONLY (keep front BUIS DOWN) makes the aimpoint red dot ultra crisp & fine (as the small aperture will produce a "stenopeic" effect on the red dot making it crazy clear & fine) for detail work and I've found it to work much better than a ridiculous slap to the side shit-tastic eye relief / extra weight magnifiers (REAR BUIS SMALL APERTURE, NOT LARGE)... don't believe me? then try it for yourself.
Also, the closer you can get the AIMPOINT to the BUIS & to your eye = better as it will make a smaller MOA dot for detail work when needed... don't believe me? take an aimpoint close to your eye and then move it away from your eye & you will see the size of the dot will get bigger.
When I think of red dots, then I'm thinking SHTF AR set up, then I'm thinking you'll want BUIS anyway.... so try it yourself... rear BUIS small aperture with the aimpoint as close as possible to the rear BUIS (with enough room for the cap to flip down) & with the red dot as close to your eye as possible for detail work WHEN NEEDED....
flip your caps down so they don't get snapped off... note I've allowed just enough room for the rear cap to flip down & clear the rear BUIS..... IMO, the closer you can get the red dot sight to your eye = better:
the below target was produced co-witnessing ONLY the rear BUIS (front BUIS still down) with the small A2 aperture & aimpoint pro true 1x at 100yards. Also, 4" BLACK target circle dots work great for the above method at 100yards & you simply double the size of the circle for every 100yards... so 4" target circle @ 100yards, 8" target circle @ 200, and at 300yards plus you will wish you had a nice variable power scope LOL!! True tho! LOL! Live and learn, Live and learn:
On the lowest visible red dot light setting, Co-witnessing the small A2 aperture of your REAR BUIS ONLY (keep front BUIS DOWN) makes the aimpoint red dot ultra crisp & fine (as the small aperture will produce a "stenopeic" effect on the red dot making it crazy clear & fine) for detail work and I've found it to work much better than a ridiculous slap to the side shit-tastic eye relief / extra weight magnifiers (REAR BUIS SMALL APERTURE, NOT LARGE)... don't believe me? then try it for yourself.
Also, the closer you can get the AIMPOINT to the BUIS & to your eye = better as it will make a smaller MOA dot for detail work when needed... don't believe me? take an aimpoint close to your eye and then move it away from your eye & you will see the size of the dot will get bigger.
When I think of red dots, then I'm thinking SHTF AR set up, then I'm thinking you'll want BUIS anyway.... so try it yourself... rear BUIS small aperture with the aimpoint as close as possible to the rear BUIS (with enough room for the cap to flip down) & with the red dot as close to your eye as possible for detail work WHEN NEEDED....
flip your caps down so they don't get snapped off... note I've allowed just enough room for the rear cap to flip down & clear the rear BUIS..... IMO, the closer you can get the red dot sight to your eye = better:
the below target was produced co-witnessing ONLY the rear BUIS (front BUIS still down) with the small A2 aperture & aimpoint pro true 1x at 100yards. Also, 4" BLACK target circle dots work great for the above method at 100yards & you simply double the size of the circle for every 100yards... so 4" target circle @ 100yards, 8" target circle @ 200, and at 300yards plus you will wish you had a nice variable power scope LOL!! True tho! LOL! Live and learn, Live and learn:
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