Bullshit is being very generous. I don't know what is worse than Bullshit but the stuff in that link surely is.
- Thread starter MosesTheTank
- Start date
Bullshit is being very generous. I don't know what is worse than Bullshit but the stuff in that link surely is.
Hey Moses just trying to put things in perspective. I solve and deal with much more complicated problems than what you're dealing with everyday in my line of work. I'm just saying there are easier, better ways to solve problems like this. I'll tell you what... when I run into a problem like what you are dealing with the last thing I would do is send out a bunch of emails through the office complaining about it. Just saying. Also a torque wrench shouldn't be used to loosen a bolt and 41 in-lbs would probably break a #6 fastener, but not sure. You might want to check your calibration on your torque wrench.
As for Alpine Gunworks. Think what you want, I don't give a shit what you or anyone else thinks. This industry is a niche market at best and there isn't much money in it. I'll continue to build a great product and don't have anything to prove to anyone cause everything that I needed to prove I do so every time I get behind my rifles and pull the trigger. I'm looking forward to building more and better products in the future and will continue to push the envelope in this industry. Why? because I can and want the best. You don't want to buy it don't buy I really don't care. I built a chassis system cause I don't like dealing with gunsmiths for reasons that you are experiencing. I personally take my hat off to all gunsmiths for putting up with all the bullshit that they do. Why do you think they take so long to get stuff done?
LOL, anyone see down at the bottom is a link to a legal fund for poor TR? Anyone going to contribute? You would think he would have loads of cash from charging $8000 for $3000 guns to draw from.
Alpine Gun Works:
Allow me to re-phrase in a more bland way and add a question.
1. Other than the extended dialogue and emails with the manufacturer over the course of more than a year that I described above, what method of communication do you suggest? Aside from verbal and written communication my imagination is limited. You have said you wouldn't send emails, so what would you do? Would you likewise avoid telephone conversations? It is not my history to have been short on words or to leave communications hanging. Quite the contrary. And that is why I have put this question first.
2. Regarding the UNS mount. UNS mounts are used for mounting night vision devices. You said "They could of put your UNS mount on your stock and it would of looked like shit but they did you a favor and didn't in my opinion"
a. What alternative method to an UNS do use use to mount a night vision device?
b. Please describe the aesthetic attributes of your system, or include a pic so I may see how it doesn't 'look like shit'.
c. Is the absence of a night vision mounting device a benefit to mounting my night vision device?
3. Regarding machine marks I do not understand the comment, "they are just cosmetic'. As your post was, ostensibly, "to put things in perspective", what perspective is gained by pointing out a cosmetic flaw is cosmetic.
a. Do cosmetic flaws lend themselves to a rifle, or part of a rifle, in looking like "shit"?
b. In your opinion, as a professional gunsmith, do cosmetic flaws affect the value of a firearm?
4. Galvanic corrosion. I am mystified by this explanation for the 6th picture of my first post in this thread. I am even more mystified that Tactical Rifles would subject its action screws to such a process, purposefully or accidentally.
a. How are you able to determine that the condition of the screws was effected by a galvanic process?
b. How are you able to determine that atmospheric conditions in the state of Florida lend themselves to galvanic reactions?
c. Are you specifically aware that Tactical Rifles uses a storage system that effects galvanic corrosion?
i. If you are aware that Tactical Rifles has such a storage system, please describe which metals act as the cathode and anode, respectively.
ii. If you are aware that Tactical Rifles has such a storage system, please describe which medium serves as the electrolytic agent
To answer your question, "Have you heard of galvanic corrosion?" Yes. I am familiar with galvanic corrosion. I have significant training at the undergraduate level in chemistry and physics, and an outstanding academic record in this course of study.
5. Regarding the torque wrench and your statement, "a torque wrench shouldn't be used to loosen a bolt"
a. If not using a torque wrench what method do you use to determine torque values?
b. I do not have bolts fastening the two halves of my scope rings together, but rather my rings use screws. Do you recommend replacing the screws with bolts?
Of course I will think what I may, but I had never heard of Alpine Gun Works much less had an opinion of it prior to your representations in the post above. I have no reason to doubt you build a great product. The reasons it may "take so long to get stuff done" are several. With this one exception I have enjoyed excellent communication with numerous custom gunsmiths.
Allow me to re-phrase in a more bland way and add a question.
1. Other than the extended dialogue and emails with the manufacturer over the course of more than a year that I described above, what method of communication do you suggest? Aside from verbal and written communication my imagination is limited. You have said you wouldn't send emails, so what would you do? Would you likewise avoid telephone conversations? It is not my history to have been short on words or to leave communications hanging. Quite the contrary. And that is why I have put this question first.
2. Regarding the UNS mount. UNS mounts are used for mounting night vision devices. You said "They could of put your UNS mount on your stock and it would of looked like shit but they did you a favor and didn't in my opinion"
a. What alternative method to an UNS do use use to mount a night vision device?
b. Please describe the aesthetic attributes of your system, or include a pic so I may see how it doesn't 'look like shit'.
c. Is the absence of a night vision mounting device a benefit to mounting my night vision device?
3. Regarding machine marks I do not understand the comment, "they are just cosmetic'. As your post was, ostensibly, "to put things in perspective", what perspective is gained by pointing out a cosmetic flaw is cosmetic.
a. Do cosmetic flaws lend themselves to a rifle, or part of a rifle, in looking like "shit"?
b. In your opinion, as a professional gunsmith, do cosmetic flaws affect the value of a firearm?
4. Galvanic corrosion. I am mystified by this explanation for the 6th picture of my first post in this thread. I am even more mystified that Tactical Rifles would subject its action screws to such a process, purposefully or accidentally.
a. How are you able to determine that the condition of the screws was effected by a galvanic process?
b. How are you able to determine that atmospheric conditions in the state of Florida lend themselves to galvanic reactions?
c. Are you specifically aware that Tactical Rifles uses a storage system that effects galvanic corrosion?
i. If you are aware that Tactical Rifles has such a storage system, please describe which metals act as the cathode and anode, respectively.
ii. If you are aware that Tactical Rifles has such a storage system, please describe which medium serves as the electrolytic agent
To answer your question, "Have you heard of galvanic corrosion?" Yes. I am familiar with galvanic corrosion. I have significant training at the undergraduate level in chemistry and physics, and an outstanding academic record in this course of study.
5. Regarding the torque wrench and your statement, "a torque wrench shouldn't be used to loosen a bolt"
a. If not using a torque wrench what method do you use to determine torque values?
b. I do not have bolts fastening the two halves of my scope rings together, but rather my rings use screws. Do you recommend replacing the screws with bolts?
Of course I will think what I may, but I had never heard of Alpine Gun Works much less had an opinion of it prior to your representations in the post above. I have no reason to doubt you build a great product. The reasons it may "take so long to get stuff done" are several. With this one exception I have enjoyed excellent communication with numerous custom gunsmiths.
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Alpine gunworks
First you sneak on here as a shill. Does anyone remember that? " Hey everyone there's a new chassis on the market check it out. It's lighter" now these words. Do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up
First you sneak on here as a shill. Does anyone remember that? " Hey everyone there's a new chassis on the market check it out. It's lighter" now these words. Do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up
Moses, I have read all of the threads about TR on the hide and your replies are always calm, rational, and fact based. You seem very well educated and never take the low road. It would be great to meet you and talk. I wish all but one of the participants in this mess a speedy and successful outcome. As for gunsmiths putting up with all the "bullshit", I know mine doesn't havve this view and absolutely "gives a shit" what people think. PS. I have another job for you Marc!
Moses , not sure how to take that but no Ill wishes intended towards you . I was just putting my own spin on Rooneys reply . I sir would be extremely upset if I were in your shoes and it had happened to me .
Take it like this, I appreciate the support and I wish I could by you a beer for it. It means a lot.
What a load of $&@"!
One thing is for sure, I won't be doing any business with Guns America!
Good luck Frank.
rxs0
I don't know why I got into this and don't really want to start a pissing match. I know nothing about your nv mount, but from what I remember reading TR was concerned with not having enough material to mount it to your stock. If the stock you chose doesn't work with the parts you want, that's a problem, and you are part of the problem if that's the case. In such a situation you need to work things out with the guy doing the work for you. I realize you probably did this or tried to but just saying...
I don't tolerate any machine marks or flaws on my parts (within reason) but if you really have a problem with that it could be fixed rather easily. I know you paid a lot and shouldn't have to do that but its not the end of the world.
So those action screws or should I say fasteners. You pointed out they looked used at the top of the bolt and rounded off or what not. Well socket head cap screws are made that way. They are forged and the threads are rolled. Those bolts come that way from the factory and they get shipped in a box with about 99 others and they rattle around on the UPS truck till they end up at a shop. Florida is humid and with that black oxide finish over carbon steel on those fasteners that cost 10 cents each those things will rust up right away. Buy stainless if you don't want to see rust. As for the galvanic talk, hell that doesn't even matter but to expand on that. Humidity is a great electrolyte especially when there is salt in it. Put that bolt, fastener in a bin and have grinders and buffers putting different kinds of metal in the air and you will have rusted hardware pretty quick.
I have used quite a bit of torque wrenches and remember reading that you should never loosen a bolt with a torque wrench. Yours might be different and I might be incorrect but they are designed to torque a fastener not remove one.
Bolts, screws... fasteners would be the correct term and torque values can be tricky. There could be Loctite or oil involved, you might think the fastener is a different size than it really is. Is it a #6 fastener, or #8? Do you know the fastener material properties? Was Loctite or oil used during assembly? All these are needed for you to know what the torque value should be.
Anyways sorry to jump in on your post and what not and I'm honestly sorry that you had to deal with all that crap.
I don't tolerate any machine marks or flaws on my parts (within reason) but if you really have a problem with that it could be fixed rather easily. I know you paid a lot and shouldn't have to do that but its not the end of the world.
So those action screws or should I say fasteners. You pointed out they looked used at the top of the bolt and rounded off or what not. Well socket head cap screws are made that way. They are forged and the threads are rolled. Those bolts come that way from the factory and they get shipped in a box with about 99 others and they rattle around on the UPS truck till they end up at a shop. Florida is humid and with that black oxide finish over carbon steel on those fasteners that cost 10 cents each those things will rust up right away. Buy stainless if you don't want to see rust. As for the galvanic talk, hell that doesn't even matter but to expand on that. Humidity is a great electrolyte especially when there is salt in it. Put that bolt, fastener in a bin and have grinders and buffers putting different kinds of metal in the air and you will have rusted hardware pretty quick.
I have used quite a bit of torque wrenches and remember reading that you should never loosen a bolt with a torque wrench. Yours might be different and I might be incorrect but they are designed to torque a fastener not remove one.
Bolts, screws... fasteners would be the correct term and torque values can be tricky. There could be Loctite or oil involved, you might think the fastener is a different size than it really is. Is it a #6 fastener, or #8? Do you know the fastener material properties? Was Loctite or oil used during assembly? All these are needed for you to know what the torque value should be.
Anyways sorry to jump in on your post and what not and I'm honestly sorry that you had to deal with all that crap.
There, that looks better. Your welcome!
Me either, I replied to this little load of crap
My reply was essentially the fact that anytime you try to log in to a forum with an incorrect login ID/Password you get the "invalid username" notice and that I could prove it about 50 times over on forums I've never registered for. I then went on to explain that they should educate themselves meaning (GA, TR, and anyone who wanted to learn) on how things actually work on Forums and the internet.
Guess what happened, They deleted my comment. Who's censoring now eh. What a joke.
I tried responding as well. Asking if the blogger had spoken to any of the people screwed over by rooney. Post was up for 5 minutes and then taken down.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Alpine,
I understand, but in fact a Badger NV rail works very well on a Manners T4. I know this thread is long and there is a lot in it and I think some of the message has been blurred by the morass. A few members did in fact pick up on a few anomalies that I did not mention myself. And there are still more. And I would never pretend to know what you know about guns. But I do know this story, and I do know chemistry (and by the way humidity or water by itself conducts nothing. I think you are referring to the salt air, or rather the hydration shells around the Cl and Na ions/anions, and the subsequent redox). I spend a lot of time in FL and am familiar with the harshness of that environment, especially directly on the gulf. Bottom line is that I paid for a rifle I did not get. If you were building my rifle I am guessing you would have told me your thoughts on the NV rail, not had me pay for it then deliver the rifle to me and, much to my surprise, it's simply not there.
As for torque wrenches, they go both ways. Think of right and left hand threads, what is off for one is on for the other. I own both.
No, it is not the end of the world. I have a sense of humor about the whole thing but I cannot yet express this in the way that I wish so it will have to wait. The post is to relay my experience. I have posted a lot off-topic elsewhere but I can't tolerate the story being diminished or misconstrued in this thread. I do that without apology. I have taken a bashing for making a poor decision in the first place and I have never once, nor will I, retaliate for that. I own it quite fairly.
Sincerely,
Max
I understand, but in fact a Badger NV rail works very well on a Manners T4. I know this thread is long and there is a lot in it and I think some of the message has been blurred by the morass. A few members did in fact pick up on a few anomalies that I did not mention myself. And there are still more. And I would never pretend to know what you know about guns. But I do know this story, and I do know chemistry (and by the way humidity or water by itself conducts nothing. I think you are referring to the salt air, or rather the hydration shells around the Cl and Na ions/anions, and the subsequent redox). I spend a lot of time in FL and am familiar with the harshness of that environment, especially directly on the gulf. Bottom line is that I paid for a rifle I did not get. If you were building my rifle I am guessing you would have told me your thoughts on the NV rail, not had me pay for it then deliver the rifle to me and, much to my surprise, it's simply not there.
As for torque wrenches, they go both ways. Think of right and left hand threads, what is off for one is on for the other. I own both.
No, it is not the end of the world. I have a sense of humor about the whole thing but I cannot yet express this in the way that I wish so it will have to wait. The post is to relay my experience. I have posted a lot off-topic elsewhere but I can't tolerate the story being diminished or misconstrued in this thread. I do that without apology. I have taken a bashing for making a poor decision in the first place and I have never once, nor will I, retaliate for that. I own it quite fairly.
Sincerely,
Max
What a joke. I never did care for Guns America. Overly complicate site. Moses - as I read this my heart breaks for you. I can offically state I will never purchase a TR and will tell anyone I know to never consider these pieces of trash. $8,000? Heartbreak.
If I paid what you paid for a gun and it was not cosmetically perfect and perfect working condition, you could bet your ass I would have a huge problem. I've bought numerous factory rifles and not one had a blemish on it, and I paid a lot less than you did. If it were a new gun for 400 dollars, I would expect it to look and be new. There's no excuse for what he sent you!
Alpine,
You are very presumptive regarding how complicated your work is compared to an internet forum member that you know nothing of.
Additionally we have very different views of what a business, especially a “niche” business should bring to the table for their clients. Indeed, this IS a niche market but you certainly have invested in a business, product and website to take advantage of something.
When a customer contacts me regarding a job, they are not just looking for a product. They are many times also looking for expertise and knowledge of how that product is used and what peripherals that product may have to interact with.
I believe it is the builder’s job and responsibility to help the client totally visualize the end product and how it will likely be used. The builder should be able to spot conflicts in a component list the customer wants and help them work around that. If the builder and customer cannot come to common ground on a comfortable and executable plan, the builder needs to have enough sense to say “no”. To do otherwise is ultimately bad Ju Ju for both parties. To carry on in spite of potential issues shows negligence, incompetence or both.
Most of this market is very well educated and is very “in to” this type of product, however they may not be clear on certain fringe aspects of NV mounts, etc…. That is when the builder needs to be able to answer their questions, spot problems with their goals vs. specifications and be able to deliver reliable goods if contracted with that job. If the builder can’t do those things, then they should not have been listed in the offerings to begin with. The builder should also be secure and confident enough to say “No” up front, and “here is the P.O.C. for 3 excellent shops I recommend that can handle that on a world class level”.
The product that is finally delivered must also exhibit a certain level of fit, finish and aesthetics comparable to the best in the market. Even little things like attention to fasteners, finish, edges and lines need to be held to a high level. The pile of little things holds together the pile of big things.
It doesn’t make a damn if it is going to get rattle canned, zeroed and thrown in the trunk of a Crown Vic the next day. When it leaves the builders hands, it should exhibit the best of his art.
To repeatedly send out anything other than the above is a negative mark on our entire niche of builders. The unknowing will look at that as a typical example of what a custom built precision rifle is. Taking advantage of the uninformed. What bullshit.
In the end, the builder is the one responsible for that customer’s thoughts regarding whether they received value at the end of the transaction. If the client feels they did not receive a product and service worthy of their dollars, they will likely not remain a client and most certainly not speak of that builder in a positive light with others. I think that you are seeing the reaping of what has been sown.
Moses, I apologize for the long post. Best of luck with finding a finished product that is worthy of your hard earned money.
Best,
Terry
You are very presumptive regarding how complicated your work is compared to an internet forum member that you know nothing of.
Additionally we have very different views of what a business, especially a “niche” business should bring to the table for their clients. Indeed, this IS a niche market but you certainly have invested in a business, product and website to take advantage of something.
When a customer contacts me regarding a job, they are not just looking for a product. They are many times also looking for expertise and knowledge of how that product is used and what peripherals that product may have to interact with.
I believe it is the builder’s job and responsibility to help the client totally visualize the end product and how it will likely be used. The builder should be able to spot conflicts in a component list the customer wants and help them work around that. If the builder and customer cannot come to common ground on a comfortable and executable plan, the builder needs to have enough sense to say “no”. To do otherwise is ultimately bad Ju Ju for both parties. To carry on in spite of potential issues shows negligence, incompetence or both.
Most of this market is very well educated and is very “in to” this type of product, however they may not be clear on certain fringe aspects of NV mounts, etc…. That is when the builder needs to be able to answer their questions, spot problems with their goals vs. specifications and be able to deliver reliable goods if contracted with that job. If the builder can’t do those things, then they should not have been listed in the offerings to begin with. The builder should also be secure and confident enough to say “No” up front, and “here is the P.O.C. for 3 excellent shops I recommend that can handle that on a world class level”.
The product that is finally delivered must also exhibit a certain level of fit, finish and aesthetics comparable to the best in the market. Even little things like attention to fasteners, finish, edges and lines need to be held to a high level. The pile of little things holds together the pile of big things.
It doesn’t make a damn if it is going to get rattle canned, zeroed and thrown in the trunk of a Crown Vic the next day. When it leaves the builders hands, it should exhibit the best of his art.
To repeatedly send out anything other than the above is a negative mark on our entire niche of builders. The unknowing will look at that as a typical example of what a custom built precision rifle is. Taking advantage of the uninformed. What bullshit.
In the end, the builder is the one responsible for that customer’s thoughts regarding whether they received value at the end of the transaction. If the client feels they did not receive a product and service worthy of their dollars, they will likely not remain a client and most certainly not speak of that builder in a positive light with others. I think that you are seeing the reaping of what has been sown.
Moses, I apologize for the long post. Best of luck with finding a finished product that is worthy of your hard earned money.
Best,
Terry
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Frank sue GA ! they are openly attacking you via internet also , what gives with that shit ? calling you out and busting your balls ....
Please enlighten us on how you solve the problem of a rifle "builder" who was paid top dollar by a customer and delivered a sub-par product, then pretty much told the customer to fuck off when asked to fix the mistakes? I'd bet you would be on the net "complaining" pretty quick once the builder started dodging you.
Wow mind blowing logic and honesty, seriously Terry Cross!! If anyone tries to argue your common sense approach then they truly are beyond repair. I wish the entire gun industry would follow this type of business SOP. Thank you
I was also screwed over by TR with a 2+ year wait for a 6.5Grendel AR (SPG). I had to spend my hard earned enlisted pay on a lawyer to try and speed things up with these guys, tons of emails and phone calls from me were going nowhere. I can honestly say I experienced the worst customer service EVER in my life during that time with TR. In the end the rifle had bent anti walk trigger pins and the multicam dip looked like a child gave it his best shot! Needless to say I wasn't going to send it back to TR for repair because it probably would have taken an eternity and I was completely fed up with them.
I had Dave Lauck (DL Sports) strip it down, scrub all hydro dip off, new trigger pins, new handguard, install adj gas block, cerakote it and a few other things. It ended up PERFECT and he got it back to me in less than a month!
I was also screwed over by TR with a 2+ year wait for a 6.5Grendel AR (SPG). I had to spend my hard earned enlisted pay on a lawyer to try and speed things up with these guys, tons of emails and phone calls from me were going nowhere. I can honestly say I experienced the worst customer service EVER in my life during that time with TR. In the end the rifle had bent anti walk trigger pins and the multicam dip looked like a child gave it his best shot! Needless to say I wasn't going to send it back to TR for repair because it probably would have taken an eternity and I was completely fed up with them.
I had Dave Lauck (DL Sports) strip it down, scrub all hydro dip off, new trigger pins, new handguard, install adj gas block, cerakote it and a few other things. It ended up PERFECT and he got it back to me in less than a month!
Max, you seem like a stand up guy and once again I'm sorry you had to deal with all this. Terry, I'm not a gunsmith and I would like to keep it that way. I just design/build chassis systems but I have spent many hours on the phone with people helping them with their builds. I do this out of pure enjoyment and passion of the sport and to help people in this industry. I take pretty much take the same approach with clients as you do. Guys can ask me whatever they want and I do my best to help them in any way that I can. You made a comment at the end of your post "I think that you are seeing the reaping of what has been sown." My response to that is, no, I just like to do things the hard way. 
The point that I guess I was trying to make is I've read through these complaints about TR and from that video I saw all I need to see. I would never trust my hard earned money with TR and probably wouldn't have them do any work for me. But, from reading through this stuff there is a lot of trash talking going on and anyone can pretty much say anything they want about TR and nobody is going to call them out on it. No gunsmith or guy with a technical background in their right mind is going to get on here (just my dumbass) and question whether its a valid argument or whatever and that's probably why there is a lawsuit filed against SH. Just saying
In the amount of time that I have spent on here typing responses I pretty much could have personally fixed the issues Max had with TR. Just wanted to put that out on the table.
As for my line of work I can't tell you how many times I've had a manufacturing engineer, or production worker come up to my office with parts in their hand that I designed and tell me that there is a problem. With in a couple minutes of talking with them sometimes you can feel the frustration and emotion that is tied up in the issue and I've seen some silly issues become a heated debate. Of course they all usually start out as being a problem that I am responsible for, but most of the time the problem is caused by something out of my control... like the wrong part was used, or a vendor didn't follow the correct procedure for applying a finish, or the manufacturing engineer modified the part because he thought there was a problem and then he caused another problem in doing so, or poor assembly documentation the list goes on and on. I'm not perfect and have made my fair share of mistakes, but the point being is the problem isn't always someones fault and it can get complicated quickly. What I have learned over the years is emotion doesn't help that situation any and just makes it worse. Once you solve the mechanical problem now you have this human personality conflict that really didn't need to be there in the first place. This thread and others in regards to TR on Snipers Hide is only adding fuel to the fire and creating more problems. I'm not saying that if you have a bad experience with a certain company you shouldn't let other fellow shooters know or warn them. If you are going to do that make sure you actually know what your talking about, make sure you have a valid argument and keep in mind that the time spent posting your problems to the internet could probably be used better if you spent that energy trying to fix your problem. I've read people bashing companies on here more than once and then I called the company cause I still wanted their product. Come to find out the OP really didn't know what the hell they were talking about. There that's all I have on the subject and I'm done wasting my time with this bullshit. Time to go skiing and then some fun shooting this afternoon. Good luck to you all and hope Frank and Marc and get this sorted out.
The point that I guess I was trying to make is I've read through these complaints about TR and from that video I saw all I need to see. I would never trust my hard earned money with TR and probably wouldn't have them do any work for me. But, from reading through this stuff there is a lot of trash talking going on and anyone can pretty much say anything they want about TR and nobody is going to call them out on it. No gunsmith or guy with a technical background in their right mind is going to get on here (just my dumbass) and question whether its a valid argument or whatever and that's probably why there is a lawsuit filed against SH. Just saying
In the amount of time that I have spent on here typing responses I pretty much could have personally fixed the issues Max had with TR. Just wanted to put that out on the table.
As for my line of work I can't tell you how many times I've had a manufacturing engineer, or production worker come up to my office with parts in their hand that I designed and tell me that there is a problem. With in a couple minutes of talking with them sometimes you can feel the frustration and emotion that is tied up in the issue and I've seen some silly issues become a heated debate. Of course they all usually start out as being a problem that I am responsible for, but most of the time the problem is caused by something out of my control... like the wrong part was used, or a vendor didn't follow the correct procedure for applying a finish, or the manufacturing engineer modified the part because he thought there was a problem and then he caused another problem in doing so, or poor assembly documentation the list goes on and on. I'm not perfect and have made my fair share of mistakes, but the point being is the problem isn't always someones fault and it can get complicated quickly. What I have learned over the years is emotion doesn't help that situation any and just makes it worse. Once you solve the mechanical problem now you have this human personality conflict that really didn't need to be there in the first place. This thread and others in regards to TR on Snipers Hide is only adding fuel to the fire and creating more problems. I'm not saying that if you have a bad experience with a certain company you shouldn't let other fellow shooters know or warn them. If you are going to do that make sure you actually know what your talking about, make sure you have a valid argument and keep in mind that the time spent posting your problems to the internet could probably be used better if you spent that energy trying to fix your problem. I've read people bashing companies on here more than once and then I called the company cause I still wanted their product. Come to find out the OP really didn't know what the hell they were talking about. There that's all I have on the subject and I'm done wasting my time with this bullshit. Time to go skiing and then some fun shooting this afternoon. Good luck to you all and hope Frank and Marc and get this sorted out.
Wow. Just read through the Guns Amerika attack and all the comments on that page. Unbelievable. The tone in which henlisky writes absolutely pisses me off. The content, childish bullshit. All the talk about the second amendment and free speech, despicable. Stay strong Frank, you are dealing with pure shit.
Emotions need to be controlled. Emotions can cause problems when not governed by wisdom, but emotions are not unclean. Men are endowed by their creator with emotions for a purpose. Outrage is the appropriate emotion when fraud coupled with contempt and arrogance to this degree are encountered. God help us if we find ourselves in a society where anger is always wrong.
Here's the thing.
I didn't even know this place existed. I didn't know SH existed, or TR existed.
However, I do know two things. One, you cannot sue an online forum for slander or libel for posting reviews of a product or product services. You can, but there must be evidential proof that slander (spoken) and libel (in print) were committed - both of which are difficult to prove if a product or service has been:
A) reviewed independently
B) documented in flaws
C) posted as opinion in a public forum.
One cannot sue a gaming magazine for saying a particular game sucked. That is the opinion of the reviewer. Likewise, an online forum or marketplace that offers the opportunity for people to review products cannot be held accountable for the users' information.
How do I know this?
I got sued for posting a review on a really, REALLY bad book I bought. I posted the review on the website I bought the book from.
Well, the guy threatened to sue me.
Well, I was cyber-stalked by the guy who wrote the book, who spammed every email address that looked like it might be mine with a threat to sue.
Well, I was told I had to take the negative review down and compensate him for his "loss" in a "THIS LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE IT IS AN OFFICIAL LEGAL DOCUMENT EMAIL BUT ACTUALLY IT ISN'T".
So I did what any logical proponent of the Bill of Rights would do.
"Go for it, let's see what happens, and keep in mind the reviews will stay up for the timeframe of the lawsuit. Media will be drawn to the lawsuit. Your discussions will go out on ACLU, 1st Amendment, and NRA websites. Discussions about your book will be posted. Your book will be read and critiqued in court. You will hear from expert nonfiction and fiction authors, on record, testifying as to their opinion of your work. It will be a matter of public record. The review will be entered into evidence. It will go into searchable public space. Your name will be attached to it, forever. Your statements will be available for any law student, civil liberties lawyer, political action committee, or bored high school debate student to read if they get their hands on it. Every discussion, end point, IP address associated with this review, ad hominem attack, threat, communication, and record will be subpoenaed and submitted into evidence. Every claim will be investigated, every inferred threat will be checked.
In other words, I wrote an opinion review about a book I didn't like on a private site you do not own and do not control. You threatened to sue me to take it down, and used the phrase 'never bring a knife to a gun fight' in that email, and threatened to 'end me' legally.
I am not the person whose life, business, practices, and assertions will be exposed in court. I stand by my personal opinion and assessment: it's a shitty book. I can stand up and answer the questions in full honesty that I believe it is a shitty book, and under my 1st Amendment rights, I am permitted to say it's a shitty book in whatever environment I choose to say it's a shitty book, whether it be a street corner holding up a legally purchased copy of said shitty book or in a private online forum that I read said book, and believe it to be shitty in nature and in craft.
As the writer of said book, you are also allowed to state you believe that my assertion it is a shitty book is a shitty opinion. You are NOT allowed to threaten to remove my rights as a US citizen simply because you don't believe people who disagree with you should be allowed to voice that disagreement.
If you feel this is in error, please feel free to check with your local libel / slander attorney. From this point on, you are requested to communicate only through my attorney, with all due penalties and consequences due if said request is ignored."
TL
R; the standard of proof of libel, slander, and defamation is set intentionally high. As a result, they're using a bully tactic to try to intimidate SH into pulling the information - which essentially comes down to "WE'LL SUE YOU for something we really hope you won't pay attention to the actual legality of what it is we're suing you for and just cave before you realize we don't want to sue. At all. Because if we sue, EVERYTHING can be subpoenaed, from our ATF records to our store inventories to our email to our text messages to our phone records to our shop hours."But, it's up to you guys, of course. This is the exact same BS tactic the dude who threatened to sue me tried. It's pure intimidation and harassment. They don't want to go to court. They DEFINITELY don't want to go to federal court, because the minute they set foot in a lawyer's office they'll be laughed out of it for having zero concept of slander, libel, and defamation law in the United States. The standard is intentionally high to protect consumers from exactly this kind of tactic. (And in the field of firearms, the scrutiny on the purchaser is going to be far, FAR less than on the firearm manufacturer's questionable business practices.)
Any attorney worth a damn would happily subpoena everything and anything pertaining to this discussion. I guarantee you handing over what you have posted here will be far, FAR less inconvenient to you than he realizes, and that both burden of proof on this is up to him as a business. Since SH does not appear to generate ad revenue or sponsor support, it'll be hard for them to generate any kind of traction with the "conspiracy to defame".
And, as in the book category, the information about their manufacturing defects will become a matter of public record. Their sales receipts, their firearm processing, their licensing - if they sue, everything is fair game.
They are the ones who have the burden of proof. You have nothing to hide, and you have simply stated your opinion. Simply saying "nuh-uh!" will require them to provide expert objective testimony, which means exposing their clients, employees, suppliers, vendors, and all other records to the court system and therefore entered into the public record at large. You don't have to do anything other than send a request to Youtube's lawyers to provide the IP address of the supposed video and show it's not yours.
The entire thing they're saying is "it's not true and he posted a video". You're saying "this is my opinion of the quality of work of this company based solely on my experience", which is not libel or defamation.
What's going to be a hard road for them is that they have to prove that it is in fact NOT your opinion, and that the quality of work was excellent for them to win.
And in any case, they're going to look like...well, bullies who tried to intimidate people by halfassed threats into retracting negative reviews about the services provided rather than, say, put that energy into providing a decent product.
All that said...hell. They go through with this and I'll set up your legal fund kickstarter campaign. 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, 3rd Amendment, 4th, 5th: I love 'em all.
Ultimately the best line (and most legally accurate response) is:
"Your work speaks for itself. Your response to my critique of your work speaks for itself. Please feel free to pursue any appropriate legal action, and we can have this issue settled, in public record, in public, in court."
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P.S. Consult with an intellectual property rights lawyer or publishing industry lawyer as well; it's money well spent.
I'm not a sniper.
But I will testify, in court, that the first thing I did when reading TR's threats was the following:
1. Point at screen
2. Laugh
I'm not a sniper.
But I will testify, in court, that the first thing I did when reading TR's threats was the following:
1. Point at screen
2. Laugh
Welcome to the Hide [MENTION=99890]trebuchet[/MENTION], you'll fit in nicely here.
2nd......
Well Frank, I think we found your lawyer. Great post trebuchet.
Guys no matter how stupid a lawsuit is it still costs a shit load of money to defend yourself. Frank sorry for BS you and Marc are going through. Based on what I have seen from the one TacRifles.net rifle I certainly would not recommend anyone buy one
Welcome to the Hide trebuchet nice wright up.
They're from the FUTURE! They already know the outcome of the litigation. Our puny Present brains can't understand their FUTURE craftsmanship!
Would be nice if all 5 or 6 of the TR threads could be slammed into one. This is getting foolish.
I thought the same thing when the newer ones popped up. At one point I'd linked as many as I could together in one of them, but they've each sort of taken their own turns. It's sort of like all the "when will the BEAST be released" threads I constantly have to monitor to see if anyone has gotten any real information.
Ah well, just more links on google when anyone looks for TR.
+1
I'm pretty sure my brain just treats them all as one post anyways.
moses
i have to give you HUGE respect for the way you have/are dealing with issue at hand. i would have to say if i were in your shoes i could NOT be as calm as you, and the fact i am "local ISH" FL to these TURDS it would have got ugly.
FIW you have my respect.
hope all works out for all you guys involved/screwed over by them
i have to give you HUGE respect for the way you have/are dealing with issue at hand. i would have to say if i were in your shoes i could NOT be as calm as you, and the fact i am "local ISH" FL to these TURDS it would have got ugly.
FIW you have my respect.
hope all works out for all you guys involved/screwed over by them
Not much to add except for my condolences to the OP and this:
The BBB is a private business, and a shady one at that. Many years ago, we got a call from the BBB saying they'd received a complaint. After some discussion with them, they agreed to remove the complaint if I joined. Pure extortion.
Why the Better Business Bureau Should Give Itself a Bad Grade | TIME.com
I only mention it so guys will know that some BBB ratings are completely unrelated to the quality of the business. This jerk could have zero real complaints (Ha!) or hundreds.
The BBB is a private business, and a shady one at that. Many years ago, we got a call from the BBB saying they'd received a complaint. After some discussion with them, they agreed to remove the complaint if I joined. Pure extortion.
Why the Better Business Bureau Should Give Itself a Bad Grade | TIME.com
I only mention it so guys will know that some BBB ratings are completely unrelated to the quality of the business. This jerk could have zero real complaints (Ha!) or hundreds.
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Here is an interesting post by Jack Grotenrath regarding a dealing with Tactical Rifles posted on the GunsAmerica comment section. I wanted to post this before it is deleted on the GunsAmerica website.
"Tacticalrifles.net bullied me. I’m a small dealer (class III also) in Virginia. I received one of their rifles for a transfer. A customer of mine in mid (June/July) 2013 came to pick it up. Turns out it was a straw purchase. Now I had one of their rifles sitting here for several months. ATF didn’t confiscate it, nor did VA Police. I informed Tactical Rifles of the straw purchase at the time it happen. Long story short after the rifle was sitting here for several months, the owner who has an English accent called me to have me ship the rifle back to him. I had to cut him off (he was very rude & over assertive) in the conversation to explain that I need to verify that a refund was giving to the purchaser so the purchaser couldn’t sue me. He said “It was none of my business”. I explained that it is my business to know if a refund was issued so I can be clear who owns the firearm & ship it to its owner. During my conversation with him, he was rude the entire time. Eventually hung up on me. With in a week I received a letter from his Lawyer with all kinds of lies, example: I want to keep this gun, & I was just making up stories. They also wanted to charge me with theft & have my business shut down. I have never dealt with anyone so evil in my 3 years of business. There is more to this story but I don’t think many people will bother to read this or it will even matter, its just good to see someone out there with money that can stand up to bullies like TacticalRifles.net."
jcfirearms
"Tacticalrifles.net bullied me. I’m a small dealer (class III also) in Virginia. I received one of their rifles for a transfer. A customer of mine in mid (June/July) 2013 came to pick it up. Turns out it was a straw purchase. Now I had one of their rifles sitting here for several months. ATF didn’t confiscate it, nor did VA Police. I informed Tactical Rifles of the straw purchase at the time it happen. Long story short after the rifle was sitting here for several months, the owner who has an English accent called me to have me ship the rifle back to him. I had to cut him off (he was very rude & over assertive) in the conversation to explain that I need to verify that a refund was giving to the purchaser so the purchaser couldn’t sue me. He said “It was none of my business”. I explained that it is my business to know if a refund was issued so I can be clear who owns the firearm & ship it to its owner. During my conversation with him, he was rude the entire time. Eventually hung up on me. With in a week I received a letter from his Lawyer with all kinds of lies, example: I want to keep this gun, & I was just making up stories. They also wanted to charge me with theft & have my business shut down. I have never dealt with anyone so evil in my 3 years of business. There is more to this story but I don’t think many people will bother to read this or it will even matter, its just good to see someone out there with money that can stand up to bullies like TacticalRifles.net."
jcfirearms
I read it and I'm sure most of us care, also I'm not surprised in the least with what I've heard about them. I'm sorry you had to deal with them
Here's the thing.
I didn't even know this place existed. I didn't know SH existed, or TR existed.
However, I do know two things. One, you cannot sue an online forum for slander or libel for posting reviews of a product or product services. You can, but there must be evidential proof that slander (spoken) and libel (in print) were committed - both of which are difficult to prove if a product or service has been:
A) reviewed independently
B) documented in flaws
C) posted as opinion in a public forum.
One cannot sue a gaming magazine for saying a particular game sucked. That is the opinion of the reviewer. Likewise, an online forum or marketplace that offers the opportunity for people to review products cannot be held accountable for the users' information.
How do I know this?
I got sued for posting a review on a really, REALLY bad book I bought. I posted the review on the website I bought the book from.
Well, the guy threatened to sue me.
Well, I was cyber-stalked by the guy who wrote the book, who spammed every email address that looked like it might be mine with a threat to sue.
Well, I was told I had to take the negative review down and compensate him for his "loss" in a "THIS LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE IT IS AN OFFICIAL LEGAL DOCUMENT EMAIL BUT ACTUALLY IT ISN'T".
So I did what any logical proponent of the Bill of Rights would do.
"Go for it, let's see what happens, and keep in mind the reviews will stay up for the timeframe of the lawsuit. Media will be drawn to the lawsuit. Your discussions will go out on ACLU, 1st Amendment, and NRA websites. Discussions about your book will be posted. Your book will be read and critiqued in court. You will hear from expert nonfiction and fiction authors, on record, testifying as to their opinion of your work. It will be a matter of public record. The review will be entered into evidence. It will go into searchable public space. Your name will be attached to it, forever. Your statements will be available for any law student, civil liberties lawyer, political action committee, or bored high school debate student to read if they get their hands on it. Every discussion, end point, IP address associated with this review, ad hominem attack, threat, communication, and record will be subpoenaed and submitted into evidence. Every claim will be investigated, every inferred threat will be checked.
In other words, I wrote an opinion review about a book I didn't like on a private site you do not own and do not control. You threatened to sue me to take it down, and used the phrase 'never bring a knife to a gun fight' in that email, and threatened to 'end me' legally.
I am not the person whose life, business, practices, and assertions will be exposed in court. I stand by my personal opinion and assessment: it's a shitty book. I can stand up and answer the questions in full honesty that I believe it is a shitty book, and under my 1st Amendment rights, I am permitted to say it's a shitty book in whatever environment I choose to say it's a shitty book, whether it be a street corner holding up a legally purchased copy of said shitty book or in a private online forum that I read said book, and believe it to be shitty in nature and in craft.
As the writer of said book, you are also allowed to state you believe that my assertion it is a shitty book is a shitty opinion. You are NOT allowed to threaten to remove my rights as a US citizen simply because you don't believe people who disagree with you should be allowed to voice that disagreement.
If you feel this is in error, please feel free to check with your local libel / slander attorney. From this point on, you are requested to communicate only through my attorney, with all due penalties and consequences due if said request is ignored."
TL
But, it's up to you guys, of course. This is the exact same BS tactic the dude who threatened to sue me tried. It's pure intimidation and harassment. They don't want to go to court. They DEFINITELY don't want to go to federal court, because the minute they set foot in a lawyer's office they'll be laughed out of it for having zero concept of slander, libel, and defamation law in the United States. The standard is intentionally high to protect consumers from exactly this kind of tactic. (And in the field of firearms, the scrutiny on the purchaser is going to be far, FAR less than on the firearm manufacturer's questionable business practices.)
Any attorney worth a damn would happily subpoena everything and anything pertaining to this discussion. I guarantee you handing over what you have posted here will be far, FAR less inconvenient to you than he realizes, and that both burden of proof on this is up to him as a business. Since SH does not appear to generate ad revenue or sponsor support, it'll be hard for them to generate any kind of traction with the "conspiracy to defame".
And, as in the book category, the information about their manufacturing defects will become a matter of public record. Their sales receipts, their firearm processing, their licensing - if they sue, everything is fair game.
They are the ones who have the burden of proof. You have nothing to hide, and you have simply stated your opinion. Simply saying "nuh-uh!" will require them to provide expert objective testimony, which means exposing their clients, employees, suppliers, vendors, and all other records to the court system and therefore entered into the public record at large. You don't have to do anything other than send a request to Youtube's lawyers to provide the IP address of the supposed video and show it's not yours.
The entire thing they're saying is "it's not true and he posted a video". You're saying "this is my opinion of the quality of work of this company based solely on my experience", which is not libel or defamation.
What's going to be a hard road for them is that they have to prove that it is in fact NOT your opinion, and that the quality of work was excellent for them to win.
And in any case, they're going to look like...well, bullies who tried to intimidate people by halfassed threats into retracting negative reviews about the services provided rather than, say, put that energy into providing a decent product.
All that said...hell. They go through with this and I'll set up your legal fund kickstarter campaign. 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, 3rd Amendment, 4th, 5th: I love 'em all.
Ultimately the best line (and most legally accurate response) is:
"Your work speaks for itself. Your response to my critique of your work speaks for itself. Please feel free to pursue any appropriate legal action, and we can have this issue settled, in public record, in public, in court."
What is the name of the book ?
It gets better and better.
So what happened to the rifle?
Well, just deleted my GA account. To heck with them.
Tr.net just linked this promo on their fb page.
90 Days or it's Free!!
There's nothing cooler than owning a One Quarter Minute rifle. Knowing that you own the pinnacle of performance in precision instrument, capable of placing bullets consecutively through a 1/4" circle at 100yds is definitely gratifying. The wait for that custom build can be frustrating so we decided to offer a promotion that can help minimize the frustration and get you back to feeling like that kid on Christmas Eve again! We're offering a special for the month that we'll build your new custom order in 90 days, or we'll give it to you for Free*! How can we do this? Well for the last year and a half we've been working on reorganizing our Production. We've added, changed and improved, to reduce our backlog by increasing our efficiency. We appreciate the patience of all customers, and really want you all to see our commitment to you with this promotion. Contact us to discuss details.
90 Days or it's Free!!
There's nothing cooler than owning a One Quarter Minute rifle. Knowing that you own the pinnacle of performance in precision instrument, capable of placing bullets consecutively through a 1/4" circle at 100yds is definitely gratifying. The wait for that custom build can be frustrating so we decided to offer a promotion that can help minimize the frustration and get you back to feeling like that kid on Christmas Eve again! We're offering a special for the month that we'll build your new custom order in 90 days, or we'll give it to you for Free*! How can we do this? Well for the last year and a half we've been working on reorganizing our Production. We've added, changed and improved, to reduce our backlog by increasing our efficiency. We appreciate the patience of all customers, and really want you all to see our commitment to you with this promotion. Contact us to discuss details.
WOW....that is beyond scary I honestly hope no one goes for that. I think they've bitten of more than they can chew and anyone who coughs up money will be feed their lawyers coffer and never get it back or anything to show for it.
So do they start with the rifles already in production, or do those get set even further back?
