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Range Report Tannerite Question

reeljob

reeljob

Pastor
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 10, 2009
736
93
Galax, VA
I need a little input on the use of tannerite. Saturday we are teaming up with local law enforcement to spomsor a youth rimfire fun shoot. The intent is to introduce shooting to kids, some of which have never had an oppurtunity to handle a firearm. I will be doing a talk with tannerite being used during this time. Today I shot a 1/4 lb target and got the loud bang but not much of a visual effect.
My question is what is your suggestions on a SAFE way to get more of a vsual effect. I am thinking of taping a 1/4 lb target to a bag of flour and see what I get.
I only have about 70 yards to work with on the PD range so more tannerite is not an option. I will going to the range tomorrow evening to set up and want to expirement prior to the Saturday shoot. What do ya'll suggest.
Thanks
Reeljob
 
Re: Tannerite Question

I thought about using flour before for the same reasons you are. I mentioned it to someone at my local range and they said it might be a bad idea..Flour is combustible and you might just get a big fire ball. I don't know the legal implications of mixing another "agent" with a binary explosive like tanerite...

Someone else with more knowledge might be more help.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought about using flour before for the same reasons you are. I mentioned it to someone at my local range and they said it might be a bad idea..Flour is combustible and you might just get a big fire ball. I don't know the legal implications of mixing another "agent" with a binary explosive like tanerite...

Someone else with more knowledge might be more help. </div></div>

Not sure how to make the visual better, but adding another "agent" won't be a problem legally. Tannerite once mixed, is a high explosive. The same circumstances that make it legal to make/use, also make it legal to add anything else into the mix. I can go into more detail if needed.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Evolution 9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought about using flour before for the same reasons you are. I mentioned it to someone at my local range and they said it might be a bad idea..Flour is combustible and you might just get a big fire ball. I don't know the legal implications of mixing another "agent" with a binary explosive like tanerite...

Someone else with more knowledge might be more help. </div></div>

Not sure how to make the visual better, but adding another "agent" won't be a problem legally. Tannerite once mixed, is a high explosive. The same circumstances that make it legal to make/use, also make it legal to add anything else into the mix. I can go into more detail if needed. </div></div>

I guess I must be mistaken, but I thought mixing other agents with tannerite was illegal. For instance: diesel fuel or gasoline. I assumed that flour being combustible would fall in the same category. If you have a source of info that'd be great. It be nice to know if you can add other agents legally for viusal effect.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Evolution 9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought about using flour before for the same reasons you are. I mentioned it to someone at my local range and they said it might be a bad idea..Flour is combustible and you might just get a big fire ball. I don't know the legal implications of mixing another "agent" with a binary explosive like tanerite...

Someone else with more knowledge might be more help. </div></div>

Not sure how to make the visual better, but adding another "agent" won't be a problem legally. Tannerite once mixed, is a high explosive. The same circumstances that make it legal to make/use, also make it legal to add anything else into the mix. I can go into more detail if needed. </div></div>

I guess I must be mistaken, but I thought mixing other agents with tannerite was illegal. For instance: diesel fuel or gasoline. I assumed that flour being combustible would fall in the same category. If you have a source of info that'd be great. It be nice to know if you can add other agents legally for viusal effect. </div></div>

Nope, it's OK.

When you mix Tannerite, you are a "manufacturer" of high explosives (usually requires a license, right?).

Well the exception to the license requirement is if you make the explosives on site (no storage or transportation) and it cannot be for financial gain (can't charge to watch it or to blow stumps for someone).

Now say you add gasoline... What changed? Nothing. You are still manufacturing a high explosive, and are covered by the same laws.

Source of this info is Daniel Tanner.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

I didn't realize the .22lr rimfire rounds had enough velocity to set off the Tannerite binary compound...?
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B. Melick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't realize the .22lr rimfire rounds had enough velocity to set off the Tannerite binary compound...? </div></div>

They don't. He's probably using something else.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

I doubt the flour would combust - but if it did that would be awesome. I think flour is mainly a problem when you have a light "fog" of flour dust in the air...in just the right concentration (fuel/air mixture). In this case, the flour will be WAY too concentrated for that to happen.

I saw 1lb of tannerite touched off inside an old refridgerator....pieces went 200ft into the air, no exaggeration!
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I doubt the flour would combust - but if it did that would be awesome. I think flour is mainly a problem when you have a light "fog" of flour dust in the air...in just the right concentration (fuel/air mixture). </div></div>

That's the only way I've been able to make it explode, but in this case, exploding may not be necessary. The OP wants more visual. Flower thrown everywhere (like a smoke cloud) may be just the ticket.

If all else fails, the solid boom of the Tannerite will impress most people.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I saw 1lb of tannerite touched off inside an old refridgerator....pieces went 200ft into the air, no exaggeration! </div></div>

You otta see what 5# of 'homebrew' does inside a frig!
shocked.gif
Set it inside and taped the door shut with a mark on the door for aiming point. Shot it with my XC @ 200yds. Compressor and small piece of condensor coil was the only thing remaining on site. Shredded the insulation, plastic liner and exterior into nothing bigger than palm sized. You would have to put diapers on them youngsters to keep the mess contained in an area smaller than the blast radius.
smile.gif
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I saw 1lb of tannerite touched off inside an old refridgerator....pieces went 200ft into the air, no exaggeration! </div></div>

You otta see what 5# of 'homebrew' does inside a frig!
shocked.gif
Set it inside and taped the door shut with a mark on the door for aiming point. Shot it with my XC @ 200yds. Compressor and small piece of condensor coil was the only thing remaining on site. Shredded the insulation, plastic liner and exterior into nothing bigger than palm sized. You would have to put diapers on them youngsters to keep the mess contained in an area smaller than the blast radius.
smile.gif
</div></div>

AMATUERS....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1850328
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B. Melick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't realize the .22lr rimfire rounds had enough velocity to set off the Tannerite binary compound...? </div></div>
I will be using the .308.

Thanks guys for all the input, I have not ruled out the flour yet but the fruit and paintballs are prime candidates for the event.
I will let you all know how it goes.
Thanks!!
 
Re: Tannerite Question

Thanks for all the input. I tried variations of the suggestions today along with the flour on the actual range for tomorrows event. The flour worked well and I tried cantelope, tomatoes, and half rotten apples. I will be going with a 1/2 lb target of tannerite inside a watermelon. This seemed to give the biggest effect today and I will be able to maintain the safe distance with the spectators while I will be making a 70 yard shot from my position with a .308 and a 168 Amax, talk about pressure!
I will keep you posted on the feedback, most of the volunteers including the law enforcement folks have never even heard of this stuff.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">water bottle full of gasoline will be a nice visual effect...works great... </div></div>

It's also a felony. It becomes an amfo bomb at that point.

Tannerite is listed legal only up until the point that a petroleum based liquid fuel is ignited through the use of Tannerite. At that point you fall into the "nitrate based fertilizer used as an oxidizer for the combustion/explosion of a petroleum distillate."

I forget what exactly I pulled up last time this came about on the 'Hide, but about a year ago I actually had a link and listed the document where the ATF details this information officially.

It works fucking great, but doing it on a PD range in front of cops sounds like a really bad idea...


ETA:

I looked back and found the post, I'm seeing a trend...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...503#Post1825503

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
bohemScot said:
tannerite is legal. </div></div>


Correct, but strapping it to 4 gallons of gas and then setting it off is not. </div></div>
show me in writing where it says that it is not legal. </div></div>


You might exercise caution keeping that attitude when it comes to subjects of this nature. Explaining "I didn't know because nobody ever showed me it in writing" is not exactly a sure-fire way to get the ATFE off your back.

When I called and asked last year the agent called back with something on 18 USC 841 for storage and then gave me directions to this link and said when you tie a can of gas or fuel oil to it, it's a controlled explosive because the oxidizer is 85% AN and you have a petroleum liquid there.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/fel/fel-newsletter-2004-06.pdf

Page 6 and 7

It's now considered an ANFO explosive.

</div></div>
Click to expand...
 
Re: Tannerite Question

bohem,

Read my post above. Adding fuel may change the type of explosive but that doesn't make it illegal to do.

What makes Tannerite legal to use has nothing to do with what kind of explosive it is. It is legal because it is manufactured on site (no storage requirement), and not for financial gain.

This comes from Daniel Tanner himself, who knows these laws better than me, you, and even the ATF agent you spoke to.

If Tanner was wrong, he would be in jail, or at least shut down. He is neither in jail or shut down. End of story.

P.S. That exact info can be found in YOUR link about 1/3 of the way down on the left hand side. The key is "not engaging in <span style="font-weight: bold">business</span>."

 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> snip....sponsor a youth rimfire fun shoot. The intent is to introduce shooting to kids, some of which have never had an oppurtunity to handle a firearm. </div></div>

And you want to make them feel at ease by blowing up high explosives? I guess if they don't pee their pants after the boom they get to shoot too? Nice.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Evolution 9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bohem,

Read my post above. Adding fuel may change the type of explosive but that doesn't make it illegal to do.

What makes Tannerite legal to use has nothing to do with what kind of explosive it is. It is legal because it is manufactured on site (no storage requirement), and not for financial gain.

This comes from Daniel Tanner himself, who knows these laws better than me, you, and even the ATF agent you spoke to.

If Tanner was wrong, he would be in jail, or at least shut down. He is neither in jail or shut down. End of story.

P.S. That exact info can be found in YOUR link about 1/3 of the way down on the left hand side. The key is "not engaging in <span style="font-weight: bold">business</span>."

</div></div>

Like I said.... Amateurs...
 
Re: Tannerite Question

The youth shoot went great and the Tannerite was a hit. The watermelon worked like a charm and kids had a great time.
The grand finale was when the dept. brought out the full auto and let each kid rip it at a bowling pin. You want to see smiles stick a full auto in a eight year old hands and watch. It all went smooth and the kids learned a lot and everyone went home safe. We are looking forward to next year!
 
Re: Tannerite Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The youth shoot went great and the Tannerite was a hit. The watermelon worked like a charm and kids had a great time.
The grand finale was when the dept. brought out the full auto and let each kid rip it at a bowling pin. You want to see smiles stick a full auto in a eight year old hands and watch. It all went smooth and the kids learned a lot and everyone went home safe. We are looking forward to next year! </div></div>


Fantastic!




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Evolution 9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bohem,

Read my post above. Adding fuel may change the type of explosive but that doesn't make it illegal to do.

What makes Tannerite legal to use has nothing to do with what kind of explosive it is. It is legal because it is manufactured on site (no storage requirement), and not for financial gain.

This comes from Daniel Tanner himself, who knows these laws better than me, you, and even the ATF agent you spoke to.

If Tanner was wrong, he would be in jail, or at least shut down. He is neither in jail or shut down. End of story.

P.S. That exact info can be found in YOUR link about 1/3 of the way down on the left hand side. The key is "not engaging in <span style="font-weight: bold">business</span>."

</div></div>

So the guys with the 10/22 bump fire stock from the early 2000's that had a letter of compliance from the ATF knew the laws better? Aren't they shutdown now? The ATF changes their mind, it's happened many times before, and it tends to happen when someone's doing something a little different than the original designer/inventor intended.

According to your reasoning is it legal for me to make and set-off high explosive as long as I make it and use it at the same site? Tannerite is given a pass as long as it isn't transported, but they have issue with AmFo specifically doing the same thing. Once you cross into AmFo you're not on the Tannerite list, you're on the AmFo list. Different animals and different rules.
business with it.



 
Re: Tannerite Question

I have to say Im with Bohem here.

By your reasoning you can manufacture any kind of explosive you want, as long as you do it on site and dont sell it?

Just because it starts out its life as tannerite, if you add fuel its anfo, who cares about the aluminum powder at that point, you may as well add a blasting cap to it.

Im no expert on this subject at all, but logic and common sense tells me the ATF (not the most forgiving people) wont look too kindly on mixing AN and FO even if you do it on site.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

Well, you can either believe the maker of the product in question, <span style="font-weight: bold">AND</span> the ATF pamphlet that Bohem linked above...

Or you can believe what seems to make sense to you.

Makes no difference to me.

Yes, the ATF WILL eventually change their mind like they did with the Atkins Accelerator, but nobody asked what would be legal in the future, we were discussing what IS legal NOW.
 
Re: Tannerite Question

I really enjoyed the use of tannerite at our event. Like anything else when used with the proper ENCLOSED instructions it can be safe and fun for everyone. Fruit gave a great visual without worry to safety.
As a shooting community we need to insure that we shoot in a responsible manner and stick to the rules before one bad apple spoils it for whole barrel.
I am sure no matter what, some one somewhere is going to something stupid so my advice is whatever we may be doing that is questionable we either need to keep it to ourselves or really sit down and think hard about whether or not it should be done at all. A public forum is probably not a good place to advertise what we are mixing with this otherwise safe explosive. I feel somewhat responsible since I asked the original question but I was looking at this for a safe, fun way to get a visual effect, the tannerite already had the KICK and BOOM.
The anti-gun folks already have us in their crosshairs, no need making the target any bigger and making the ones fighting for our 2nd Amendment rights any more difficult.
Surely we can all agree on that!
Reeljob
 
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