Tell me whats going on in this target - Update

[Quackaddict]

Hey guys, heres soemthing I would you all to discuss with me, here is a load development target from my new Rem 700 243 win. Gun is a Rem 700 with 26 inch factory barrel, bedded into a McM A5, EGW base, Burris signature rings, and a Rifle basix trigger.

Target is at 100yds, five shots per target, barrel was clean, I fired three foulers which grouped real tight, then fired a five shot group every ten minutes or so.

Load is Lapua brass, CCI Lg primers, 70 grain blitzking .015 off the lands over Varget. Powder charge from top right corner going clockwise is as follows 39.9, 40.2, 40.5, 40.8, and center is 41.1.

What is the deal with the horizontal strnging on the left side of the target? 40.5 the single bullet hole was a called flyer.

Im happy with the way it is shooting, just curious as to why it strings so bad, wind was not a factor.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Shoulder mirage. Most horizontal stringing (including mine) is shooter control.

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Bench? Prone w/Bi-pod? How did you dhoot them.

Most likely trigger pull, Breathing, cheek weld to stock.

Consistant set-up and follow through.

Terry

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Sorry, bench off of bags. No bipods for load development, the guy who runs the local shop said he sees this sort of stringing alot in smaller calibers.

What is shoulder mirage?

I didn't detect a missed delivery, though it could possibly be, I can shoot tight with my 308 on demand.

 

[Seawalker]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

It might be scatter nodes causing the stringing. The load appears to be tighening up and coming up on an accuracy node as you get to 41.1. Lot of rifles find their best accuracy node at about 42 grs. varget with the 70 gr. If you aren't seeing any pressure signs you could work up toward 42 in .3 increments and see if you get another scatter node and then come in on another good node at 42.

 

[vman]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Your vertical is good but that is pretty standard at 100yards.

Push the target out further and test at 300 if you can for the best vertical spread.

In regards to the horizontal, it could be a number of things.

1) shooter
2) inconsistant weld
3) trigger pull

to name a few.

Its interesting that you say you can shoot tight groups on your .308... perhaps its not so much you as it is the rifle?

Hows the trigger feel?

You dont happen to be left handed?

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I honestly think the trigger is better on this rifle than my 308, I am not left handed. I will redouble my efforts to pratice good follow through and trigger control.

I am used to the larger grip of the HS M-24 on my Savage, but it and the A5 arent that different, and the A5 seems plenty comfy. I have less than 100 rounds through this rifle.

I will say that in actual shooting (at critters) I can't miss with the rifle, it just seems right, I have gone 13 for 13 to about 150 yds (peanuts I know) but a starling sized target is easy to miss.

I have never produced groups like this with any of my other rifles, thats why it has me so puzzled. Normally the groups are random and mostly circular, even though they may be large. I have never produced anything like what the bottom left target is like.

 

[244]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I shot a Rem. 700 in .308 (factory barrel) that would string about 1.5 inches to about 7 o'clock as the barrel heated. Once hot (about 5 rounds) the stringing would stop and hold consistent at 1.5 inches low and left of POA.

This stringing was with various factory match ammo (168 FGMM, 180 BHG AB, 155 BH Amax) and was usually shot with a bipod prone.

Not exactly the same scenario, but something to keep in mind.

Have you checked your barrel to ensure it is free floated and not contacting the stock?

 

[John Roache]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Consistent sight picture? How is the eye relief sitting at the bench vs how you have been shooting at live targets?

 

[vman]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Mmmmm interesting indeed.

The rifle sounds newish so maybe smash a couple hundred rounds down the tube and see what happens?

Im curious tho

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

How is the riflebasix trigger working for you?
I had one to begin with on my aics build, and i got similar inconsistant groups, the trigger just didn't feel right,

after a couple hundred rounds I got around to checking the pull, and it was breaking anywhere between 2 and 4 pounds very inconsistant. I returned the trigger, installed a jewel, and IMMEDIATELY my groups tightened and the problem went away..

Might be worth checking?

Giles.

 

[cav has been]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Does the string occur in an orderly fashion? ie first hole near center,next shot just to left, next shot next hole to left. That third group shows less than 1/8" vertical dispersion, I certainly wouldn't call that scatter. The shooter is always suspect, for sure in my case, and ALWAYS on this board. Have you checked the tube/stock for clearance as it warms up?

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

could be a slight breeze down range, they all seem to be left of the target. Another thing is "IF" you don't have a good quality scope maybe mirage is getting the best of you, messing with your sight picture. I noticed you said base, rings, trigger, but didn't mention which scope you were using.
Just throwing out a couple more possibilities.

 

[ubet]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Take the center one and the bottom right. Load +-.2 shoot at 300 round robin style. Puck the tighest one, and go with it.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

A slight breeze wont push a 70 blitz going 3600+ that far at 100 yards, the breeze was from the left maybe 5-10mph tops, mostly still. I dial in an inch either way to make sure I have a consistent aim point. There is plenty of clearance in the channel, even when warm.

The rounds went like this, First shot - right most hole, second- left most hole, the rest fill in somewhere.

The scope is a Bushnell 4200 6-24 "tactical" (I hate that name).

The trigger is the 6oz to 2lb model rifle basix makes, set around 1 lb, I can't test for consitency, but the trigger is sexy, it breaks clean and is lighter than my 308 trigger.

Im going to laod up 10 at the 41.1 and see if it continues to perform, if it does I will chalk it up to an oddity in the harmonics, Im not a super shooter, but im honest enough with myself to know that some of the error is likley mine.

Regardless of shooting position or what im shooting at, the scope gets positioned so that eye relief is right, I don't "float the circle".

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I must also not that I shot about 30 rounds of ammo through the gun before I load tested and cleaned the barrel so no copper was present.

I may just shoot it for a while before I get to wound up about it, it still is a new barrel. I don't believe in break in but they deffinatley seem to "settle down" and act consistent after a hundred or so.

 

[deadeye]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

If you're sure the barrel isn't touching anything and you aren't causing it, then I would be looking at the bedding.

 

[Seawalker]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Well, I'm just an old guy that likes to shoot. Neither my knowledge or skill rate with any of these guys here who have made shooting their life's work.

It does seem to me though that looking at your center group and #3 group with the called flyer, that both the rifle and you are capable of pretty good shooting. So if you can't blame your self or the scope/rifle, then what is left that would explain two good groups and three sorry ones?

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

deadeye, what exactly about the bedding? Ive seen groups get bigger and smaller with powder variation, but not to this extent.

This is also relative, but the squares on that target are 1 inch, at lest three of those groups are sub MOA, the center is close to 1/4 MOA. Whatever I can do to become a better shooter however is beneficial.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seawalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It might be scatter nodes causing the stringing. The load appears to be tighening up and coming up on an accuracy node as you get to 41.1. Lot of rifles find their best accuracy node at about 42 grs. varget with the 70 gr. If you aren't seeing any pressure signs you could work up toward 42 in .3 increments and see if you get another scatter node and then come in on another good node at 42. </div></div>

I went back and looked at your target and reread your post. I agree with Seawalker. My 300WM will scatter like this with some powder/bullet combos.

Either try working up to 42 as suggested or go shoot the piss out of 41.1 and see what kind of consistency you get.

I hate load development because of this kind of stuff. It messes with your mind leaving you walking away muttering to yourself, "I know I can shoot... I KNOW I can shoot."

John

 

[Seawalker]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Yes, the groups are much better than they appear because of the horizontal stringing effect. Even the worst 2 are under .5 moa. Still those two groups look bad compared to the center group and group 3 without the flyer.

I get .488 moa for group 1, .290 moa for group 2, .317 moa for group 3 with the flyer, .483 moa for group 4, and .168 moa for group 5.

 

[deadeye]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Quackaddict -

As many have said, <span style="text-decoration: underline">the most likely is either barrel channel touching somewhere or shooter error</span> BUT if you are sure it is neither of these, then bedding can cause similar problems if it is not stress free.

I've opened up guns to find a good bedding job but a little piece of bedding had chipped off and lodged near the lug or somewhere critical causing movement - just a thought - it has happened.

 

[AQC440]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I also think it could be trigger control, but for reasons that differ from what you are thinking. I am not saying you have bad habits or are jerking the trigger, but your referral to the trigger being "lighter" or "better then" another trigger doesn't make it easier to shoot.
Drastically heavier triggers make you concentrate on centering the cross hairs, pulling straight back, nestle the stock firmly against the shoulder. Lighter triggers, way lighter then what you are use to, can produce the results you are seeing. You don't grip the rifle or snug it in the same with a lighter trigger because it simply doesn't take as much resistance to set it off...my .02

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I never said it wasn't me, I am going to take Rj's advice and dry fire a number of times before shooting the string next time.

I know 100% for a fact there is no touching barrel/stock contact after the bedding, I checked it warm to.

Deadeye, I appreciate your and everyone elses comments, I think the thread has been interesting, To be sure that a chip hasnt been pinched somehwere I will open it up and check it out.

AQC, what you have said makes a lot of sense, I am going to shoot tomorrow and will post results, Im going to shoot 5 rounds of the 40.8 and see if I can recreate what it did, but I will refocus myself to make sure I am exactly where I want to be when the rifle goes. The frusterating thing about this whole deal is I havent been able to go out and shoot it again to either prove myself or make myself look like a fool.

 

[deadeye]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Quackaddict -

if possible have a friend shoot it and see their results.

 

[jephs422]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

try shooting at 50 yards for load development. take some of you out of it.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Deadeye, if it shows it again tomorrow I will have my friend Jeff shoot it when he gets home from the gulf, he is a sure shot.

 

[samnev]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I have had a similar problem with my TRG 22. With it's light trigger pull i found the if I didn't put the center of the pad on my index finger in the same place each time I would string my shots the same way yours are. Once I concentrated on trigger finger placement I stopped torquing the shots to the left or right. Anyway that worked for me. With groups as small as yours a torquing of the trigger will produce horizontal stringing.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Well guys, I have to eat my crow here guys, I figured out the issue today, When I shoot from the bench we have, I use my off hand by holding the very front of the stock, as a way to steady myself. But as you can imagine and as I found out it causes torquing to the left during recoil, and since its never the same twice, you get varying results. The 40.8 load shot into almost .5 today, but 41.1 was over an inch, I was disappointed with my inconsistency today.

When I shoot at game Im always prone, in that case I use the hand hold on the A5 and the tourque goes away, that along with the good accuracy and flat shooting makes for a nasty combo.

I worked all the way up to 42.0 today with no pressure, it showed lots of promise but I was so off by then I can't trust the results, so I will be testing 42.0, 42.3, and 42.6 tomorrow or Sunday. A bigger issue was the fact that some of the cases werent sealing to the chamber right, it wasnt till I got to 42.0 grains that I got good consistent sealing, before that I would get a few that would seal and a few that wouldn't. Ideas on this??

 

[244]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Usually lack of pressure causes the soot on the neck (weak seal). Was it worse with lighter loads and got better with more powder?

Lapua is great brass and known to have a long life. It lasts because it is a harder alloy; harder brass will take more pressure to seal.

 

[samnev]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

I've seen light loads cause soot half way down the case. Sounds like your brass is not fully expanding to seal the chamber. I'd look up the loads you are shooting and se where they fall in the load range and if possible move up your charge weight. I've never had sealing problem with my 308 Lapua brass and I shoot on the lowere middle range of the loading range. lapua brass is great. It's all I use in my TRG 22.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

We I tested 42.0, 42.3, 42.6, and 42.9. 42.9 is the limit, minor ejector swipes were visible on all the cases, even with fully sealing brass.

42.3 is the one I am going to play with for now, I got 3/4 inch accuracy out of it and I have yet to play with seating depth, I am going to forgo development of the lower end because I would like as much point blank range as I can, even at 3/4 inch, I will have plenty of accuracy for what I normally do.

Santo, as a sort of idea for load, Sierra lists 41.1 Varget as max with the 70 blitz, good for around 3400. Hogdon lists 40.5 at around 3550 with the 70 blitz. The sealing problem almost disappeared above 42.0 grains, 42.3 should put me in the 36-3700 range, which is what I wanted anyways. Hopefully playing with seating depth will get me into that .5 inch range.

 

[Seawalker]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

You might consider 3 rds. each at 42, 42.1, 42.2,and 42.3 shot in round-robin fashion to make the groups have the most consistent set of parameters, i.e. barrel heat, wind, nerves, etc.

You could load three fouling rounds at 39.9 and fire them at your center target to warm up the barrel. I still believe that you are right around the node at 42 to maybe the 42.3 and can probably still refine it even more with seating depth after you get the center of the accuracy node.

I believe it's going to work out just fine for you. You're almost there!

 

[LARMIKE]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Draggin Wood... ?

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

What are you talking about LARMIKE?

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Alright guys, an update for ya, After settling on 42.3 grains Varget under the 70 blitz I loaded up bullets from .005 off the lands all the way back to .035 off, I also cleaned the barrel and it returned excellent groups, I will post tomorrow but all three I shot were in the .5 inch range. The one .005 off was the best looking, and I will be going with that. I did get some chrono data off the load as well, Average speed was 3505, with an ES of 41 SD of 20.

A bit dissapointed with the speed, but I can live with it. Overall I am happy with what I have!

 

[LARMIKE]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quackaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are you talking about LARMIKE? </div></div>

Lets see.. the position of the right hand must be that the trigger finger is able to move without touching the rifle stock. The finger touching or brushing on the side of the stock during trigger pull is called, "dragging wood." This makes it difficult to pull the trigger straight back or in a fashion that does not disturb the sights. According Jim Owens, a symptom of this is a group of shots strung out horizontally. I read your post and the light bulb came on later. Oh well... hope it helps. Mike

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Tell me whats going on in this target

Oh, I wasn't aware of that, sorry if I came across as rude, I did not mean to be. Thank you for the help, it was exactly what you are describing.