Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
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Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
I don't own a Templar, but have several Defiance actions (co. that makes the Templar) I have also owned an RSR. I'd recommend the Templar for sure.
I don't own a Templar, but have several Defiance actions (co. that makes the Templar) I have also owned an RSR. I'd recommend the Templar for sure.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail.
What are you going to do with them?
That could turn the trick in which one to go with.
They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail.
What are you going to do with them?
That could turn the trick in which one to go with.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail...
</div></div>
A Surgeon RSR with recoil lug and Surgeon rail weighs exactly 1 ounce less than a Surgeon 591 action. There is no massive difference and I'd just get a 591 if you are looking at Surgeon. Or are you referring to a massive price difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail...
</div></div>
A Surgeon RSR with recoil lug and Surgeon rail weighs exactly 1 ounce less than a Surgeon 591 action. There is no massive difference and I'd just get a 591 if you are looking at Surgeon. Or are you referring to a massive price difference?
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail...
</div></div>
A Surgeon RSR with recoil lug and Surgeon rail weighs exactly 1 ounce less than a Surgeon 591 action. There is no massive difference and I'd just get a 591 if you are looking at Surgeon. Or are you referring to a massive price difference?
</div></div>
Heh both.
True the weight is pretty close and the 591 is a good action. If I were the OP, I would be comparing the 591 and the Templar as apples to apples.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are both good actions but its not really an apples to apples comparison, the templar is intended to be an excellent action built by defiance to GAP's specs.
The RSR is intended to be a lower-market custom as an alternative to those of us who dont want the massive actions that other surgeon models entail...
</div></div>
A Surgeon RSR with recoil lug and Surgeon rail weighs exactly 1 ounce less than a Surgeon 591 action. There is no massive difference and I'd just get a 591 if you are looking at Surgeon. Or are you referring to a massive price difference?
Heh both.
True the weight is pretty close and the 591 is a good action. If I were the OP, I would be comparing the 591 and the Templar as apples to apples.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh
If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
You make a good point and I see where you are coming from. You are absolutely right.
In price class and feature/improvement focus the two are still worlds apart. If you remove cost as a factor I would be hard pressed to understand why someone would not choose the templar in this comparison.
In my own case, I recently made a similar decision and my decision went to the RSR for cost reasons.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
You make a good point and I see where you are coming from. You are absolutely right.
In price class and feature/improvement focus the two are still worlds apart. If you remove cost as a factor I would be hard pressed to understand why someone would not choose the templar in this comparison.
In my own case, I recently made a similar decision and my decision went to the RSR for cost reasons.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
But in price class and feature focus are still worlds apart. </div></div>
Can you explain "feature focus"?
Josh
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
But in price class and feature focus are still worlds apart. </div></div>
Can you explain "feature focus"?
Josh
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
But in price class and feature focus are still worlds apart. </div></div>
Can you explain "feature focus"?
Josh </div></div>
Certainly, that was simply my term of where the respective companies are introducing their primary thrust of innovation.
I was trying to make the point that when you look at the Templar, which incorporates the experience of GA Precision and then is produced to spec by Defiance Machine, GA precision has one flagline action. And that is the Templar.
Therefore as we saw in the recent transition to v2 of the Templar, GA precision will place their improvements in the Templar action because that is the top end (and only - for now) action they designed.
Not so on the surgeon side.
Longer tenon thread? 591 or even 1581.
Stronger material (4140 CM)? 591, 1086, or 1581.
RSR is still Stainless steel.
Modified/thicker recoil lug? Aside from the fact that its also integral, that is also a feature not available on the RSRs, not even to order as a pinned separate accessory.
I am simply saying that if you are comparing the two, you get what you pay for. If you want a custom action and you want to save a little coin, realize the RSR is not in the same price class as the templar for a reason. The templar brings a great deal of GA Precision's experience to the market. The RSR does not represent the experience of Surgeon, there are some things done in other actions that this one will not have.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are talking construction wise then it is apples to apples with a templar and an RSR.
RSR and Templar have a separate base and recoil lug which the 591 does not. Those two are way closer in construction than a 591.
Josh </div></div>
But in price class and feature focus are still worlds apart. </div></div>
Can you explain "feature focus"?
Josh </div></div>
Certainly, that was simply my term of where the respective companies are introducing their primary thrust of innovation.
I was trying to make the point that when you look at the Templar, which incorporates the experience of GA Precision and then is produced to spec by Defiance Machine, GA precision has one flagline action. And that is the Templar.
Therefore as we saw in the recent transition to v2 of the Templar, GA precision will place their improvements in the Templar action because that is the top end (and only - for now) action they designed.
Not so on the surgeon side.
Longer tenon thread? 591 or even 1581.
Stronger material (4140 CM)? 591, 1086, or 1581.
RSR is still Stainless steel.
Modified/thicker recoil lug? Aside from the fact that its also integral, that is also a feature not available on the RSRs, not even to order as a pinned separate accessory.
I am simply saying that if you are comparing the two, you get what you pay for. If you want a custom action and you want to save a little coin, realize the RSR is not in the same price class as the templar for a reason. The templar brings a great deal of GA Precision's experience to the market. The RSR does not represent the experience of Surgeon, there are some things done in other actions that this one will not have.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
I own a temlar and love it. smoth action, very sturdy, and never any problems ejecting a round. Great overall design, and GAP installed an oversize recoil lug with it as well so that helps as well. Also the bolt is milled out of one solid piece of stock. not sure if that so on the surgeon...
I own a temlar and love it. smoth action, very sturdy, and never any problems ejecting a round. Great overall design, and GAP installed an oversize recoil lug with it as well so that helps as well. Also the bolt is milled out of one solid piece of stock. not sure if that so on the surgeon...
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also the bolt is milled out of one solid piece of stock. not sure if that so on the surgeon... </div></div>
The bolt body is constructed from a single piece of stock, yes.
The RSR bolt is machined from "aircraft grade" 4140.
Albeit with threading to add the bolt knob of your choice, which conveniently they also offer a few different ones you can order in addition to the default.
Also a few details that I asked for about the RSR directly from Surgeon...
The reciever is constructed from 416R
The bolts are made from 4140 CM
The bolts have .0015" clearance around the bolt when in battery
The threading is 1 1/16 x 16 2A
The head space is .945"
Also some good RSR photos to supplement what is on the Surgeon website...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...718#Post1881718
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also the bolt is milled out of one solid piece of stock. not sure if that so on the surgeon... </div></div>
The bolt body is constructed from a single piece of stock, yes.
The RSR bolt is machined from "aircraft grade" 4140.
Albeit with threading to add the bolt knob of your choice, which conveniently they also offer a few different ones you can order in addition to the default.
Also a few details that I asked for about the RSR directly from Surgeon...
The reciever is constructed from 416R
The bolts are made from 4140 CM
The bolts have .0015" clearance around the bolt when in battery
The threading is 1 1/16 x 16 2A
The head space is .945"
Also some good RSR photos to supplement what is on the Surgeon website...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...718#Post1881718
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
Thanks again for all the info from every one.From what i gathered,if price aint an issue the 591 Srugeon would be the better of the 3.I was wondering if the 591 is as smooth as the Templar when i work the bolt.
Thanks again for all the info from every one.From what i gathered,if price aint an issue the 591 Srugeon would be the better of the 3.I was wondering if the 591 is as smooth as the Templar when i work the bolt.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
I contemplated the same decision myself a while back. I went with the Templar action. The bolt and handle are machined from on solid piece of steel and heat treated. Extractors are stronger than Rem700s and reliable. Receiver body is stainless steel.
But both are fine actions, and it really comes down to personal preference.
I contemplated the same decision myself a while back. I went with the Templar action. The bolt and handle are machined from on solid piece of steel and heat treated. Extractors are stronger than Rem700s and reliable. Receiver body is stainless steel.
But both are fine actions, and it really comes down to personal preference.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
Just think of all of this like this. George Gardner has the most sucsessful private rifle building buisness in the world, and for good reason. He could use any action he wanted to but he chose defiance to make them. There is a reason for that!! I spoke with Glen at defiance machine yesterday and he is a great fella that took his time to talk to little old me about what i wanted. That phone conversation cost me about 1100 bucks but i feel it was money well spent! If they are good enough for george gardner then they are good enough for lee Gardner (me) thats how i see it!! Lee
Just think of all of this like this. George Gardner has the most sucsessful private rifle building buisness in the world, and for good reason. He could use any action he wanted to but he chose defiance to make them. There is a reason for that!! I spoke with Glen at defiance machine yesterday and he is a great fella that took his time to talk to little old me about what i wanted. That phone conversation cost me about 1100 bucks but i feel it was money well spent! If they are good enough for george gardner then they are good enough for lee Gardner (me) thats how i see it!! Lee
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
Surgeon bolt on the left and the Templar on the right in all three pics. I've ran these both hard and have had zero problems with either....I'm not a "safe queen" type of guy......grin!! They'll both get the job done and then some!!
Surgeon bolt on the left and the Templar on the right in all three pics. I've ran these both hard and have had zero problems with either....I'm not a "safe queen" type of guy......grin!! They'll both get the job done and then some!!
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
The templar bolt on the right looks a lot like a stiller bolt. good pics!! Lee
The templar bolt on the right looks a lot like a stiller bolt. good pics!! Lee
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
is there a point to the spiral grooves on the bolt other than saving weight and looking cool as you work the bolt?
thnaks
is there a point to the spiral grooves on the bolt other than saving weight and looking cool as you work the bolt?
thnaks
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is there a point to the spiral grooves on the bolt other than saving weight and looking cool as you work the bolt?
thnaks </div></div>
Yeah, giving dirt/grime a place to go on these very tight tolerance actions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is there a point to the spiral grooves on the bolt other than saving weight and looking cool as you work the bolt?
thnaks </div></div>
Yeah, giving dirt/grime a place to go on these very tight tolerance actions.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
ah makes cents...
another question:
is the non-typical templar action GAP offers the same action that is on the GAP Crusader?
Thanks,DT
ah makes cents...
another question:
is the non-typical templar action GAP offers the same action that is on the GAP Crusader?
Thanks,DT
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
Pretty sure that the hunter version has a different port than the one used on the Crusader.
Pretty sure that the hunter version has a different port than the one used on the Crusader.
Re: Templar and Surgeon RSR Action?
Which probably directly translates to not as heavy/stiff of an action which translates to not as accurate of an action?
hmmm...
Which probably directly translates to not as heavy/stiff of an action which translates to not as accurate of an action?
hmmm...
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