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The Tank is dead...Long Live the Tank!

along those lines is why they are really pushing the f-35 to the finish line (not here to discuss it)

the future of warfare is swarm drones

the f-35 has data link systems on board to allow it to lead the way from BVR.

there has been several simulated war games that the rules had to be changed because the games never got past day one.

one in particular was a retired admiral was in charge of the red force, he consistently launched more missiles than the carrier group could defend.

i forget the numbers but if the carrier has a 100 anti missile defense he would use 150...some had to get through.

they actually had to stop him from doing that so the simulation could move forward.

china's stealth fighter is really only stealth from 12:00. so they fly in close launch all their ord and try and bug out. now the navy has to resupply across the pacific etc...area denial

another chinese doctrine is send up 500 1970 mig 21's again not caring about the pilot or plane, each american fighter carries X number of missiles....some mig 21's have to get through.

thats why the new upgrade of the f-15 carries some insane amount of AA missiles 20 if i remember.

f-22/35 gets in close and the 15's fire from the back out of range.

AA missiles data link to the 22/35 and get guided to target.

there was actually a plan put forth for change out the B-1's engines and make it a missile truck carrying upwards of 80

they would keep the swarm attack at bay while having the speed and flight range to disengage if needed

sorry for the side track but as you say the big stuff will get more expensive so naturally there will be less, but i fully expect there to a "clusters of drones" over the battle field.
Hi,

China does not even have 500 J-7( their version of the MiG-21) they number in the mid 200’s.

They do have 155+ J-20’s, an assortment of different Flankers(J-11’s, J-15’s), and around 550 J-10’s.

The Idea of 500 kamikaze MiG 21s... lol...

Sincerely, Jaun.
 
@MarinePMI pretty much nailed it and I am going to pile on.

The Tank is in no way dead, it is one of the best support by fire platforms available and it is also great for demoralizing the enemy by crushing their sewer yarns:D with roughly 72 tons of love, more if they have the reactive armor on it.
Soviets demonstrated their inability to operate decentralized. Their system is very centralized which compounds the problem. Their soldiers only take commands and do not understand the intent, reason behind why they are doing what they are doing. This lends to mission failure in a dynamic, rapidly changing environment when soldiers only know to go to point "a" and not what to do next so they only go to point "a" and stop to wait for more guidance.
Next their inability to synchronize efforts across the warfighting spectrum is absolutely astounding aka inability to execute combined arms maneuver. Movement and maneuver, shaping of the battle field, it is all lacking. It is absolutely crazy how bad they suck!
Tanks are incredible systems. Great systems, but without infantry to secure and/or clear ahead of them they will get hemmed up really quickly as we can see. You don't lead with tanks unless you want to loose said tanks.

Armor brings forth a really robust and much more survivable support by fire platform.

Just my .02

The Toyota War was proof of how powerful missiles are vs tanks. You have something big, complicated and costly like a tank or a submarine or a ship vs something small and not nearly as costly/complicated like a missile or torpedo. That's why I think whomever develops the best small drone tech will win future battles.
 
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The Toyota War was proof of how powerful missiles are vs tanks. You have something big, complicated and costly like a tank or a submarine or a ship vs something small and not nearly as costly/complicated like a missile or torpedo. That's why I think whomever develops the best small drone tech will win future battles.
Someone will develop something and someone else will develop a counter measure. It's the normal evolution of warfighting.
 
I think I already posted this, but the UAVs Turkey is providing can carry weapons capable of taking out heavy armor. The ones more recently "in the news" on the way from the US are designed specifically for overhead attack.

Tanks are awesome, but vulnerable. Designed in different times.
 
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Hi,

China does not even have 500 J-7( their version of the MiG-21) they number in the mid 200’s.

They do have 155+ J-20’s, an assortment of different Flankers(J-11’s, J-15’s), and around 550 J-10’s.

The Idea of 500 kamikaze MiG 21s... lol...

Sincerely, Jaun.
It was a exaggeration to make it obvious…but that is their doctrine for area denial against the US navy.
 
It was a exaggeration to make it obvious…but that is their doctrine for area denial against the US navy.
I don't really care enough to go digging up stats, but my understanding is the US Naval-based aviation fleet alone is significantly larger than most of the rest of the world's combined. I'm talking aircraft alone.
 
long live the tank armored hell on tracks 16 tons of monster truck fun and oh yea it's got guns .
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get some .
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I don't really care enough to go digging up stats, but my understanding is the US Naval-based aviation fleet alone is significantly larger than most of the rest of the world's combined. I'm talking aircraft alone.
It’s not the amount of aircraft, it’s the firepower that particular flight can project. Early warning, sub hunters don’t count.

If it’s a flight of 4 f-18’s they only need to send up “1 more” than can be “shot down”.

Additionally there will be 2-3 carrier groups not in the pacific so a country like China can utilize all its aircraft toward 1/2 of the navy numbers.

Example: Problem with the f22 is that it’s to small and can’t carry enough internal weapons staying stealthy.

It was designed during the end of the Cold War and had to fit in hardened nato hangers. So compromise had to be made
 
It’s not the amount of aircraft, it’s the firepower that particular flight can project. Early warning, sub hunters don’t count.

If it’s a flight of 4 f-18’s they only need to send up “1 more” than can be “shot down”.

Additionally there will be 2-3 carrier groups not in the pacific so a country like China can utilize all its aircraft toward 1/2 of the navy numbers.

Example: Problem with the f22 is that it’s to small and can’t carry enough internal weapons staying stealthy.

It was designed during the end of the Cold War and had to fit in hardened nato hangers. So compromise had to be made
Aircraft can be easily replaced. Experienced, Highly Trained pilots are not
 
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Aircraft can be easily replaced. Experienced, Highly Trained pilots are not
Think again. This isn't WWII when the entire of US industry was rolling out thousands of relatively simple aircraft. Thousands of pilots were rapidly trained to fly aircraft not much more complicated than a Cessna. Now days only a single plant produces a given airframe. Modern aircraft are so technically complicated there is no way to ramp up production in a timely manner. It's getting to the point where the loss of an aircraft equals the loss of a pilot. Planes like the B-1 and B-2 weren't used in the Gulf because they were too few and too expensive to use for anything but flyovers for holidays and sporting events. Once the production lines are shut down, what you have is all you have.

As inexpensive drones and RPVs become more capable, the need for expensive planes and pilots in hostile airspace decreases.
 
Planes like the B-1 and B-2 weren't used in the Gulf because they were too few and too expensive to use for anything but flyovers for holidays and sporting events. Once the production lines are shut down, what you have is all you have.

I agree with much of your post but the B1 & B2 were absolutely used in the Gulf wars. We have a flag that was carried on an offensive bombing mission (B1), with a certificate of authenticity made out to my daughter - we sponsored a soldier for a couple of years and that was his thank-you to us when his rotation was up. Both have makeshift bathrooms as their missions are often from thousands of miles away. The only operational base for the B2 is in MO, but I know the B1 has operated out of GA in the past, don't know if they every deployed from there. One of my ex's cousins flew tankers that refueled them both over the Mediterranean or mid-Atlantic out of JAX or somewhere in Germany during various conflicts. She flies for a commercial airline now.

They are still churning out FA-18E/F's, but most are going to foreign nations as the US tends not to lose them and all our aircraft carriers are full. :D edit - perhaps we'll sell the regular Hornets off and keep the Supers. I've never been up close to an E/F but I believe they're almost as big as the F14..
 
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Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the US MBTs have active protection missile systems that scan the surrounding sky without even needing the crew to pay attention to it, and they will take out anything like a Javelin long before it reaches the tank?

I don't think tanks are remotely near "dead". It is HOW they are deployed that matters. The future of warfare will all be SMART. That means if you are still riding around in a dumb metal box, you are gonna get murked very quickly. If you make your formerly dumb metal box into a smart metal box, with C-RAM capabilities against anything that might be thrown at it, the other heavy weapons on your metal box will crush the opposition's assets.

Military sci-fi has already explained to us that instead of becoming "dead", tanks in future warfare will evolve to take on even more expanded roles. When fuel and energy sources advance to a certain point, there WILL be attempts to make tanks into quadpedal or centipede walkers, possibly with hover, underwater, and even space capabilities, functioning as drop and launch shuttles that can unfold right upon reentry and deploy into battle...

Like submarine tanks?
 
I agree with much of your post but the B1 & B2 were absolutely used in the Gulf wars. We have a flag that was carried on an offensive bombing mission (B1), with a certificate of authenticity made out to my daughter - we sponsored a soldier for a couple of years and that was his thank-you to us when his rotation was up. Both have makeshift bathrooms as their missions are often from thousands of miles away. The only operational base for the B2 is in MO, but I know the B1 has operated out of GA in the past, don't know if they every deployed from there. One of my ex's cousins flew tankers that refueled them both over the Mediterranean or mid-Atlantic out of JAX or somewhere in Germany during various conflicts. She flies for a commercial airline now.

They are still churning out FA-18E/F's, but most are going to foreign nations as the US tends not to lose them and all our aircraft carriers are full. :D edit - perhaps we'll sell the regular Hornets off and keep the Supers. I've never been up close to an E/F but I believe they're almost as big as the F14..

A impressive aircraft indeed.

24129510-1-B08-46-D3-9-BB8-CC1-FC98-A6-C13.jpg


I like the chock
 
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would a 'swarm' of drones defeat a tanks anti defense system ?

You don't need a swarm you just need a missile. Really hard to stop something that is coming 1000mph straight for you. Or artillery etc. I watched a video of a bunch of russian tanks rolling down a highway side by side (maybe 16-20 of them) and the ukrainians used artillery on the first two, then the last two, and after that it was a slaughter. You could see the russians getting out of the tanks and running for their lives.

Now let's say you have a 40mil dollar jet aircraft on one side and 40 1mil dollar drones on the other. That's the real question. Or if you have drones armed with missiles flying all over the countryside looking for bad guys. No place to hide.

I don't really care enough to go digging up stats, but my understanding is the US Naval-based aviation fleet alone is significantly larger than most of the rest of the world's combined. I'm talking aircraft alone.

We have way more carriers than everyone else, and ours are huge.
 
Drones can carry shaped charges
I mentioned above, even the cheap Turkish drones can carry weapons capable of taking out heavy artillery (specifically including tanks.) The ones being supplied by the US ("Phantom") are designed for just that, sacrificial weapons platforms.

The Javelin is capable of being carried by a solider, and launched from miles away at ground-level. It's pretty ancient in terms of anti-tank technology.

 
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A little personal history about tanks...

In late 1990 my MEU(SOC) was deploying to the Med. We were feeling a bit left out, with Desert Shield gearing up (and about to become Desert Storm). Back then, a MEU(SOC) normally deployed with a 5 ship MARG. One LKA, a couple LST's, and LPH and an LPD. But with Desert Shield building up, the Navy found itself short of ships capable of delivering men and material...and so we found ourselves deploying with just 3 ships. Guess what got left behind? All our armor, and all but 6 (IIRC) Arty batteries (of which only 2 tubes worked).

We knew this well in advance of our deployment. My Battalion commander was an older LtCol. Old enough that his first deployment as a 2nd Lt was to Vietnam in Nov of '67 (Merry Christmas <sarcasm>), and to a place called Khe Sanh. Experience two months later, was a painful teacher...and it showed. He obviously survived that engagement, but after his tour he transferred out of the infantry.

All of this is to say, when we found out we'd have no armor, Col. Kohl immediately reorganized our group (Service & Support) and stripped about 1/3-1/2 of the Marines from their Plts and formed a "provisional" Rifle Company (that was heavily armed in comparison to a normal rifle company's TO&E). Comms, MotorT, Combat Engineers, LSB/Shore Party, Supply...we all became grunts, because we knew if something happened, the BLT (Bn Landing Team) wouldn't be able to cover everything, and sans Armor, it was going to get bad if we had to mix it up in a furball.

After the airwar kicked off (we were in Toulon, France actually), we continued our cop-on-a-beat deployment, heading to Sardinia for Operation Dragon Hammer. Halfway through the beach landing, we get a flash message. War was over, but Iraqi Republican Guard were wiping out the ethnic Kurds, using helicopters, sarin nerve agent, and pushing them into the mountains, and then gunning them down in groups. So, we get orders to "proceed with best speed" to stop the shitstorm that was developing (even though most of the free world was still high on the stunning speed and success of Desert Storm). 12hrs after the message was received, we had re-embarked all gear (which is fucking mind boggling to understand or appreciate) an we were underway at a pretty good speed. As troops they told us nothing, other than it was real world, and they tell us when we got there, what exactly was going on. Three days later we arrived off the coast of somewhere, soon to be told we were in Iskenderun, Turkey.

Anyways, we roll in to Turkey; dis-embark all gear, distribute live ammunition, and take a 12+hr ride from Iskenderun, Turkey, transiting the Carpathian mountains, and down into the pocket of Turkey that interjects into Northern Iraq; Silopi, Turkey. We then rolled across the border (after removing the PE-4 demolition charges they had placed under the bridge for us; me and an Intel guy found them, but that's another story altogether).

The Iraqis were not happy to see us, and threatened to restart the war, since we were technically in a cease fire.

Now the Iraqis had moved many of their modern tanks up North to avoid some of the shit storm that happened down south. So as we rolled across the border into the town of Zakhu, Iraq, intent to set up an initial security perimeter in mountain pass (which ironically was very similar to the Delta T in 29 Palms), low and behold, we roll up on a T-72. Initially we thought it was a dummy, like the dummy inflatable BMP's we had seen spread out in the various minefields along the main roads leading in from the border. ...Until the turret started turning to track on us. Everyone bailed the vehicles and started forming a perimeter with AT-4's being brought to bear. Suddenly that tank hatch pops, and an IRG commander starts waving a handkerchief. Long story short, he wanted nothing to do with us, or our anti-tank rockets (we may have had a few TOW vehicles, but I don't recall them being around at the time). We find out he was ordered to hold the main city circle, and we explain we can't let him, and so he leaves down the mountain pass.

That night, the IRG were out probing lines, and getting into fire fights with the Kurds, since the word had spread, and every Kurd north of the 34th parallel was making a beeline for the 36th (line of demarcation for the DMZ, just north of Dihok, Iraq). We had no armor, and knew there were at least 3 Bn's of IRG in the area. HUssein was threatening to attack with his troops, and the State Department was in the process of negotiating a resolution. The BLT and the provisional rifle company filled the lines. Even so, there was about 75-100yds between each hole. We had aircraft from the USS Roosevelt flying CAP and providing illumination on-call drops the whole night. Surreal doesn't begin to explain the feeling of being up on a ridgeline, no armor, no significant Arty (only two guns working), and too steep for 81's to realistically support, with no back up beyond the remaining 100 people or so, back in Silopi (25-35mins away). Suffice it to say, the next few days were...stressful, but we prepared as best we could, laid out mines (as if there weren't enough already spread out in that shithole), and waited.

That's what Marines do. Is armor wanted? Hell yes. Is it really needed? No, not always (and it comes with a very long logistical tail/cost). You adapt, you improvise, and you fall back on your training. All those sand table exercises that the Col required, all paid off. Terrain was used to our advantage, and appropriate weapons were distributed to deal with the threat. Choke points were used (and manned) very effectively, much like they're doing in Ukraine today.

So all of this is to say, no I don't think you need to be concerned about tanks for the Marines. In the coming peer adversary conflict, it'll be more important that the Corps go back to it's mantra of being shock troops, capable of breaking opposing forces through maneuver and violence of action. Marine Tanks will just bog that down. Better to spend those dollars that were spent on tanks, to better arm and train Marines in how to quickly, and violently neutralize armor threats, and then close in and crush the supporting infantry. Back when I deployed we had waaaayyyy more training than what I see in today's Corps. Hopefully that changes as well, now that the armor has been removed from the equation.

Anyways, sorry for the long post, but just wanted to give a different (and personal) perspective. Tanks are nice, but they're not required most times, especially in high relief terrain.
Awesome details man. tbh I'm still concerned about not having armor in the Marine Corp, but that is probably way down the list of things going on today. But spot on agree, training trumps gear. Let's just make sure the Air Force maintains the sky (I am not a fan of the F-35, we need a "new" F-16, but that's another rant). Makes the infantry job A TON easier. (but not easy!)
 
Like submarine tanks?


That can transform into a quadpedal mech on land while engaging tangos, and then fold up again to blast off back to the orbiting corvette that it deployed from...
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ETA: Most of the known exoplanets of the nearby stars scanned so far are quite watery anyway, so you gotta be prepared...
biggrin.gif
 
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