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Rifle Scopes The wife gets a new job making more than me so I get to upgrade and could use advice

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gunn317

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Nov 12, 2012
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#1
So as the title says the wife is in the final stages of getting hired for a job that will double our yearly income. I currently have a vortex razor 5-20hd in moa. I have really been toying with upgrading to a s&b pm ii, stiener, or premier. I dont have a legitimate reason other than just to spend the money I think. I absolutely love my vortex and vortex has treated me very well. After a ton of research I know s&b is probably considered the industry standard, steiner is new to the scene, and premier is an awesome scope but the company is up in the air. I guess my ultimate question is how much of distinct difference would I see moving up from the razor hd to one of the three mentioned? The other option is get another rifle for the price of a scope mentioned above.
 
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#3
Do you have bills, or credit cards that should be paid down?

I don't know that you would be getting that much more performance over the Razor HD. Certainly some, but is it twice as good?
 
#5
Would consider the new Vortex Razor HD 4.5-27X. Best bang for you bucks and sell your Razor 5-20X. Otherwise, get the S&B 5-25X. I got the MSR reticle, but they come with MOA also, if that's your flavor.
 
#7
ShtrRdy said:
Do you have bills, or credit cards that should be paid down?

I don't know that you would be getting that much more performance over the Razor HD. Certainly some, but is it twice as good?
Click to expand...

ShtrRdy,

Obviously financial security will play a big part in any decision. Pretty much all our bills are set at a 50k a year budget, with the new job we will be able to pay off all our bills minus mortgage and vehicles in less than a year and a priority is going to be given after that to retirement and college for my daughters. I am a firefighter so I work part time a lot due to my schedule of one on two off. So my part time pay will now become truly mine instead of extra money for bills. As you stated how much better can it get from the Razor? I don't know a soul that has any of the scopes that I am looking at, I get a bunch of flak from my buddies that shoot with the cost of the Razor and was trying to feel out if anyone here has upgraded from the razor into one of the mentioned scopes.
 
#8
silentheart said:
How about upgrade her husband? If that is not an option, upgrade to sb or kahles.
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Sib,

LMAO I hope not, I am really stoked for her. Since 2000 she has really sacrificed her career so that mine would flourish. She was a housewife for the first four years of our marriage because I was deploying all the time and when we got out she has had a hard time finding a career, she has worked 50-60 hours a week for peanuts to help off set my low FD salary but never has been given the opportunity to get into a career not just a job. So she busted her butt and got a degree while working full time and now she is sitting pretty for a high paying job that neither of us really expected. Both of us are really already spending money on improvements to the house, paying off bills, shoes is her big thing ten years married and I still don't get it but oh well.
 
#10
"premier is an awesome scope but the company is up in the air"

Up in the air? As in they are gone and any Premier you get will be old stock or used?

ETA: I don't have experience with Steiner or Kahles new offerings, but my S&B 5-25x seems like its about all I could ask for in a scope.
 
#11
The S&B is the only one that's truely an upgrade from your vortex. Premier = failing optic, failing company. The steiners knobs fucking blow and they haven't been out long enough to establish a track record like the S&B has.

If I was considering others besides the S&B it would be a NF Beast or a Kahles.
 
#12
Heck go for the S&B, why mess around. That scope will maintain most of its value if you choose to sell it later.

Also start a small business, because you are gonna get raped in taxes. Welcome to the 28% bracket!

"Not political just fact"
 
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#13
I've got both scopes and I can definitely tell you that unless you want to upgrade just to experience new things, you won't be gaining much. Objectively speaking, it WILL be an upgrade, but it will not make you shoot any better. In fact, the razor sits a top of my 338 because it's got much more internal elevation.

There's no question that the s&b is a high quality scope with just about the best optical qualities, but it also has many disadvantages just like any scope does.... Physically limited internal elevation (2 turn turrets), 2 year warranty (talk about being confident about your products...), the way the turrets and arrow are set up, it's sometimes extremely hard to tell what line the arrow is pointing at, and etc.. .
 
#14
timelinex said:
I've got both scopes and I can definitely tell you that unless you want to upgrade just to experience new things, you won't be gaining much. Objectively speaking, it WILL be an upgrade, but it will not make you shoot any better. In fact, the razor sits a top of my 338 because it's got much more internal elevation.

There's no question that the s&b is a high quality scope with just about the best optical qualities, but it also has many disadvantages just like any scope does.... Physically limited internal elevation (2 turn turrets), 2 year warranty (talk about being confident about your products...), the way the turrets and arrow are set up, it's sometimes extremely hard to tell what line the arrow is pointing at, and etc.. .
Click to expand...

Timeline,
Thanks for the input, this is exactly what I was looking for in regards to someone having both scopes. I love the vortex and I didn't know if I would see any major earth shattering improvement from the vortex to a S&B. The only thing I know is that the Vortex is by far the best scope I have ever looked through and didn't know how the other three would compare. I wouldn't want to spend the extra cash for just something that is marginally better compared to what I already have.
 
#16
timelinex said:
I've got both scopes and I can definitely tell you that unless you want to upgrade just to experience new things, you won't be gaining much. Objectively speaking, it WILL be an upgrade, but it will not make you shoot any better. In fact, the razor sits a top of my 338 because it's got much more internal elevation.

There's no question that the s&b is a high quality scope with just about the best optical qualities, but it also has many disadvantages just like any scope does.... Physically limited internal elevation (2 turn turrets), 2 year warranty (talk about being confident about your products...), the way the turrets and arrow are set up, it's sometimes extremely hard to tell what line the arrow is pointing at, and etc.. .
Click to expand...

The S&B has nearly 27mils in those two turns, when would you possibly need more than that? That's enough to get a 308 to a mile.
 
#18
redneckbmxer24 said:
The S&B is the only one that's truely an upgrade from your vortex. Premier = failing optic, failing company. The steiners knobs fucking blow and they haven't been out long enough to establish a track record like the S&B has.

If I was considering others besides the S&B it would be a NF Beast or a Kahles.
Click to expand...

I have a Steiner with the 2nd gen turrets.
The turrets are as good as the S&B PMII I used to own.
Glass is in the same league, no tunneling (the S&B is a 7.5-25 IMHO) at low mag and the illumination control is a better design and located in the right place.
No track record? They've been making optics for decades and have a large presence in the US, plus a real warranty vs. S&B's 2 years.
 
#20
delixe said:
I have a Steiner with the 2nd gen turrets.
The turrets are as good as the S&B PMII I used to own.
Glass is in the same league, no tunneling (the S&B is a 7.5-25 IMHO) at low mag and the illumination control is a better design and located in the right place.
No track record? They've been making optics for decades and have a large presence in the US, plus a real warranty vs. S&B's 2 years.
Click to expand...

I believe your memory is a bit flawed. If you tried them side by side with an open mind you probably wouldn't think so.

As far as track record, how long has S&B been making their 5-25 vs Steiner making their current lineup? Exactly... Track record.
 
#21
In my VERY limited opinion, I think any scope that you spend $2-3k on will be a damn good scope and where you start to see diminishing marginal returns and you start to pay for a name, as with pretty much any other product out there.

But I am surprised no one has mentioned to look at a USO scope. I've used one a couple times and glass was clear and the scopes are tough as nails.
 
#22
Pretty much everything in the price range is a damn good scope, but that doesn't mean they are great scopes. Different people focus on different things and have different needs. For instance the position of the illumination of Steiner vs S&B...I don't care where it is. I like the DT turrets and the 10Y focus.

Tunneling doesn't bother me after over two years of running an S&B but the tiny triangle to line up my mils on my knobs is hard to see. I rarely use 27 mils...actually I never have needed all 27 mils. I would have been happier with more spacing and 20 mils. But, nothing is perfect.

Really, that's the only flaw is sometimes seeing when the little triangle is lined up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#23
triceratops3 said:
In my VERY limited opinion, I think any scope that you spend $2-3k on will be a damn good scope and where you start to see diminishing marginal returns and you start to pay for a name, as with pretty much any other product out there.

But I am surprised no one has mentioned to look at a USO scope. I've used one a couple times and glass was clear and the scopes are tough as nails.
Click to expand...

I can think of 4 German companies that make a better scope, and two U.S. companies that do a better job. Maybe that's why.

USO has had a problem with QC over the last couple of years, repairs take months, and honestly, the glass is o.k., nothing special. If you bought an ERGO equipped scope, you are fucked, they don't work on them any more. I had three SN-3s's, the ERGO parallax was great for left handed shooters, sold them all.

The 1.8-10X that they sell now looks like it is 2 feet long, weighs a ton, very large turret/parallax set-up.

Used to be a fanboy, no more. I wish them well.

Buy the S&B.
 
#26
redneckbmxer24 said:
The S&B has nearly 27mils in those two turns, when would you possibly need more than that? That's enough to get a 308 to a mile.
Click to expand...

It has 25.5 to be exact. Which, depending on conditions, would bring my 338 out to about 2250 and the 308 the mid 1600s. I have shot both calibers, on multiple occasions, further than those distances. Now, it's not often, so it's not a big deal. I didn't say it was a big deal though. I just said that it is a measurable disadvantage to a scope that has a lot more elevation because of no DT type turrets.
 
#29
tylerw02 said:
You've still got the reticle and the option to dial ten and skip the turret.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

But then on the other scopes I would still have that much more elevation if I maxed those out and then used the reticle.

Obviously I'm not comingg across clear here. It's a negative, compared to other scopes. Whether it's an important one is up to you. You can compensate for it in other ways, as you suggested, and I don't imagine it being a deal breaker for anyone. However, that does not change the fact that it is a by definition a disadvantage in that quality compared to others...
 
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#31
FWIW, I look at it this way, if you have the means and desire- upgrade. When has anyone truly upgraded anything to realistically better suit their needs and regretted it?-never.

That said:
A) all riflescopes suck at some/several things.
B)I wouldn't be afraid to buy a Steiner/PH/S&B/Hensoldt right now(I have++/will+), I also wouldn't be afraid to keep the Razor you have.
C) scope comparisons are usually like reading results of a kissing contest
D) scope qualities/features that matter are rarely highlighted in order of importance-especially on a web forum or at the range.
E) optics are a wear item just like barrels/knees/etc. use them and they'll need to be gone through/replaced-depending on their "genes"
F)congratulations to you and your wife!
 
#32
I personally think it's a little fiscally irresponsible to upgrade considering you have bills that are going to take a year to pay off with the new income. Especially considering that you have a kid, shit happens and unexpected expenses happen. Your wife's new position may not work out. What then? You should have at least 6 months of savings (cover 6 months of bills) and no outstanding debt before making a luxury move to an item like a S&B.

Who knows, maybe that's just me. But, considering this is just a hobby of ours, financial security should come first, toys after that.
 
#34
One guy said the Steiner knobs suck but I really have to disagree. I have used S&B's and maybe it's personal preference but I did not notice anything wrong with the steiner 'knobs.' I really like my Steiner Military 5-25 and would encourage anyone to make the investment. You can pick them up for under $2500 in most cases. Look up tiborasaurusrex's youtube video review on the Steiner Military optics for more info.
 
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