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TITANIUM barrels??

E

Eric B.

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 6, 2011
373
33
81
Las Vegas, NV
#1
This week I spoke to a friend who was formerly an NSA operator. (Yes, they do exist.)

He said he had heard from his former operator "community", as he put it, that some U.S. special forces (no service branch named) folks in Afghanistan were using .338 LM rifles with <span style="font-style: italic">titanium</span> barrels.

I allowed as how that would be doubtful because of the difficulty of rifling that tough material.

Has anyone seeen anything <span style="text-decoration: underline">verifiable</span> on this topic?
 
#2
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

If they are, they're not going to be using barrels made completely of titanium. Gale McMillan made an all titanium barrel once and had horrible luck with it, basically the rifling didn't hold up, so he scrapped the project. I think you can make a titanium barrel with a steel sleeve for the bore, but the elasticity of titanium mixed with the rigidity of steel makes me wonder if that might be a bad idea as well. I want to say I remember reading something about titanium machine gun barrels, but I may be thinking of cobalt.

When your friend says he's an NSA Operator, does he mean he's the one who answers the phones?
 
#3
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

Not to be tellin tales out of school, but it sounds like FOS to me. like Merlin said, it could be a steel liner or even a steel barrel with a titanium like finish.
Quite frankly, there are people in the military who think they know guns because they carry one around on a daily basis.
Hell, I have two cousins in FL (wife's cousins actually)(POS MFr's that they are) who have been in the army for several years & couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, much less tell you anything about their rifle other than they can break it down for cleaning.
If you look in a current copy of the Machinery's Handbook for the properties of steel v/s titanium, combined with the charactersits of metal needed for gun barrels & it's obvious (well it may not be to some) but Titanium while being a very hard & durable material in most cases is far too brittle to hold up without being mixed with other materials. It could make for a ligher alloy than pure steel of the same dimensions.
Although other materials such as cobalt may be a good idea, price/weapon just like with raw titanium is just not practical.
 
#6
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

Titanium is pretty flexible, very hard (can't imagine the tooling to cut it), and honestly would probably make the barrel too light. You'd want to add weight. None of the above seem to lend them selves to a good setup.

I've spent enough time working around the shooting schedule at Lake City. They have plenty of function test QC ammo to fire. (Last time I was there they were shooting about 16 hours a day which left us 2300 to 0600 on the range)

I bet they would have shot out a few dozen barrels in test blocks before they went into the field with them, and I'm betting someone would have heard about it, it's not like it would need to be some double secret opsec stuff. It's a rifle barrel.
 
#7
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

My wife has a titanium .38, but it's lined w/ steel.

Full disclosure; to my knowledge, she's not part of the 'operator community'.
smile.gif
 
#8
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

You can make just about anything out of Ti, its not that big of a deal to machine. However it is not suitable to many applications for two main reasons: it galls worse than aluminum, this means you can rub it away, making it a horrible bearing/friction surface, and two, its an amazing spring, you can flex it almost indefinnitely without it work hardening and breaking the problem is trying to make it stop flexing, it seriously lacks rigidity. So for a barrel you would need a sleeve, or plating for the bore, but it would still flex more than steel. Also it is lighter than steel but not nearly as light as aluminium which is not as light as carbon fiber, so if lighter weight was the goal there's better ways to go about it.
 
#11
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

if and a big IF at that I would assume they would be dealinng with a Titanium alloy and not CP Titanium. Have some familiarity with 3/2.5 and 6/4 Ti alloys. just would imagine that their material properties would not seem to be ideal for this application. Lightweight, yes. Strength to weight....great. Rifling it...?? I could also imagine they could sleeve a barrel very similar to the CF barrels out there. YMMV
 
#12
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

Also, Titanium oxidizes WILDLY above 800°F, which is why it's difficult to weld.

Also, its coefficient of thermal conductivity is tiny, meaning heat moves through it very, very slowly. Meaning heat would build up fast in the throat, eroding and oxidizing it quickly.

I think Ti would make an awful barrel, even if it was cheap and easy to machine.
 
#13
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can make just about anything out of Ti, its not that big of a deal to machine. </div></div>

Beg to differ. While it certainly CAN be machined, it is challenging in several ways. It is tough, but it complies. It doesn't like small, baby-step cuts, which I think would make cut-rifling tough, as that is done with very small depth passes. Button rifling is out, because Ti is not ductile and tends to crack when cold formed. It can be hot-formed, but that has to be done in a 99.999% oxygen free environment, or the material turns to garbage.
 
#14
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can make just about anything out of Ti, its not that big of a deal to machine. </div></div>

Beg to differ. While it certainly CAN be machined, it is challenging in several ways. It is tough, but it complies. It doesn't like small, baby-step cuts, which I think would make cut-rifling tough, as that is done with very small depth passes. Button rifling is out, because Ti is not ductile and tends to crack when cold formed. It can be hot-formed, but that has to be done in a 99.999% oxygen free environment, or the material turns to garbage. </div></div>
I have made several Titanium firing pins....it is tuffer to machine than 4130.
bill larson
 
#16
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

I have very little experiance machining Ti but when we used to build the tail drag skids for a 747 we were always worried about heat build up and the chips catching fire. I know that Ti is flamable to a point. I dont think I would shoot through it either and Im just a dumb farm kid.
 
#18
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

I would think they would go carbon fiber before Titanium. Several companies are making lightweight "Heavy" barrels with a steel sleeve center and carbon fiber wrapping to provide the accuracy of a heavy barrel without the weight.
 
#19
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not Titanium. 99.99999% sure. Machine ability etc.....

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

Yeah....what the heck do you know!!!!
grin.gif
 
#20
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your "NSA operator" friend is full of BS. </div></div>
Every "operator" I've ever met sells beef jerky at gun shows. Just sayin'...

OP, does this guy at least work at a gun store? I met a door gunner on the space shuttle at a gun store once.
 
#22
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

So the rifling is the problem... maybe he's an NSA door kicker and it's a Ti shotgun!

I live not far from NSA HQ and many of my neighbors and quite a few friends work there. They have LE types and patrol the roads around it with SUV's that I'm sure have a party-time T/E. Don't get a flat tire in that area, you'll get a lot of immediate help. Seen it happen. But when I think of 'Operator' I think of someone snoopin' and poopin' in black hat land. The NATIONAL Security Agency would not really have a mission ouside of the nations borders, certainly not an armed one with teams. The stuff I know about abroad is all sig-int.

Could be wrong though. Don't play in that sandbox.
 
#23
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

15+ years ago I held a rifle that had a barrel profile heavier than an m24/m40 and it was incredibly light. When I asked the smith that was showing it to me what it was he told me it was a “special purchase” that his client had somehow acquired from the secret service.

It was chambered in 7mm rem mag and weight less than a Remington varmint contour.

Anyway, as the story goes the barrel was made of some kind of alloy. Likely lined but I didn’t think, nor know to check at the time. I just thought, “Hmmm, that’s interesting” and went on about my business of picking up my POS Colt 1911 that was getting worked over by said smith so it would hold some resemblance of a group when fired.
 
#25
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

We make all sorts of wild stuff from Ti in the aerospace industry and the high-end motorsports industry. Hollow steel, polished ID drive-shafts that weight ~1lb and transmit hundreds of horsepower on endurance cars are NOT made from Ti. They're made from 300M almost exclusively. Ti doesn't have the fatigue properties that the Steel does.


Ti shines in AL replacement applications, especially at elevated temps (300F+ enviro) because of its critical temps and increased fatigue limit over AL.

Top level AL, like 7000 series has a reasonable fatigue limit around 7ksi. Yes, AL creeps and never has a true endurance limit but it's a safe bet that you can get 10^8 cycles from a <7ksi application in AL for a material density that's appx 0.11 lb/in^3

Most of the Ti we use in aerospace is alloyed, not pure Ti, and much of it is functionally an endurance limit of about 19-20ksi for a material density appx .16 lb/in^3

That is ~ 300% increase in fatigue limit for 160% increase in component weight, so you can make something that is FATIGUE CRITICAL lighter from certain Ti Alloys than you can from AL.

Not true with steel, but Steel is much more prone to oxidation and has it's own problems to work around.

Titanium is not the magic material that many people think it is, it's great in some applications and it absolutely stinks in others.

Take a Ti suppressor for example. If you can make it live in AL you get a HUGE improvement in the heat conductivity of the AL (almost 20x's, geometry and heat path dependent) than you do over Titanium. AL is soft and does not take abrasion and ablation well at all. AL makes great 22 suppressors but it's tough to make it live in a centerfire suppressor due to the reduced material properties at elevated temps, blast pressures, and the Mach 5 sandblaster effect that is the blast chamber.

My 22 suppressor is a monocore so I get excellent heat transfer along the baffle stack and the only reason that I used a piece of DOM Ti-6Al-4V Grade 5 for the envelope instead of a piece of AL is because I got a piece of from an airplane that I helped to build. It has a special meaning to me and it's a 22 suppressor, otherwise I would have made it from a piece of AL tubing and kept the weight and heat transfer benefit.



On the actual topic of Ti barrels: You COULD make one from it but the cost of the material alone is going to be around the same as a completely finished, installed, and ready to shoot SS416R barrel. Then you add all the special considerations for how it needs to be machined, the special cutting fluid, cutter geometry and composition, etc. and you're looking at something that is going to be WILDLY expensive only to have a sub-par performance.

You want to save weight on a barrel? Drop the contour substantially and run it that way. There's no need to run an MTU contour for <1/2MOA performance. I've seen it and owned rifles that perform to demonstrate contrary to that belief.
 
#28
Re: TITANIUM barrels??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RufDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.teludynetech.com/ </div></div>

The Straight-Jacket isn't a barrel, it's a sleeve... </div></div>

I realize that the Straight-Jacket is a sleeve. I posted the link. We are searching for possible answers. The Straight-jacket is a possibility considering titanium is an option with that system.
 
#32
Bender said:
Zombie thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
I know. I was in the process of trying to find a feasible way of making Ti barrels. It seemed like there is potential in it, just not a lot of people putting in the effort to resolve the shortcomings. so when I found updated material, just figured this was a good place to share if anybody else stumbled across it the same way. Here's another related article.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
 
#34
Do not be too surprised to see your friend busing tables at the food court in the local mall. The NSA and the CIA have many operators working undercover in mall food courts.
 
#35
Said person has obviously been playing too much Splinter Cell. Either that or when he says "operator", he means telephone operator. I dont know if the NSA really has some Sam Fisher-type dudes running around out there or not, but Id bet if there are they dang sure wont talk about it. Not to worry, theres a few clues you could use, does said guy speak Farsi? Arabic? Pashto? Have you ever shot with him or seen him shoot? IMO if he speaks a language or multiple languages native to SW Asia and handles a firearm like a pro, he probably has a background in some serious sh!t. Then again he may not but the probability went up exponentially if those are checked off the list. The language skills arent required either, but it should be fairly easy to figure out if you get him behind a rifle, take note of skill/knowledge with a radio, how he handles himself in a high stress medical situation, or possible street fight, etc..
 
#36
well I make folding knives and I use titanium for the handles(64alv) since it keeps a good spring memory and you can do lots of cool things to it. it loves to break taps and drill bits, you can use hss steel bits but its prefered to use carbide or cobalt and coated if possible. The material takes time to get use to but its fun to work with. Its not too hard to turn but I have never milled it all i know is to use carbide. Moly dee works great on it too. Sorry if you guys aren't into machining :(. I'm back from a long break off snipers hide.
 
#37
Yes Ti can come in all manner of alloys, and it's ability to not work harden like Al in some applications is what makes it so cool. Plus it doesn't rust, it's non-ferrous and a bunch of other characteristics. A straight Ti barrel doesn't make any sense without a liner.
 
#38
I actually talked to the patent holder of Nitinol titanium about this very thing. The response was tooling may be difficult, but he admittedly had more of a metallurgy background than that of a machinist. The conversation changed to using a thin stainless barrel and a thicker titanium sleeve, which could be pressed in. I would think if you heated the titanium sleeve and cooled the inner stainless barrel and pressed the barrel in, you may get a tight fit. Barrel makers have it down to a science and have years of good results to show, I don't know how many barrel manufacturers would be interested in reinventing the wheel. I have no expertise in this field, but it is a interesting topic.
 
#41
Captain Kirk said:
I actually talked to the patent holder of Nitinol titanium about this very thing. The response was tooling may be difficult, but he admittedly had more of a metallurgy background than that of a machinist. The conversation changed to using a thin stainless barrel and a thicker titanium sleeve, which could be pressed in. I would think if you heated the titanium sleeve and cooled the inner stainless barrel and pressed the barrel in, you may get a tight fit. Barrel makers have it down to a science and have years of good results to show, I don't know how many barrel manufacturers would be interested in reinventing the wheel. I have no expertise in this field, but it is a interesting topic.
Click to expand...


This is not likely to work and here is why...One of the big problems (features) of titanium is the very low expansion with heat. It is this that creates a lot of the machining issues. I've never had any problem turning or milling the material. It works great in that respect but when drilling holes or tapping you run into problems because it doesn't expand when it gets hot (not as much as your tool). So you start drilling and even with coolant you get heat build up in your cutting tool. The cutting tool expands and the wonderful titanium doesn't. In fact the titanium is now making better contact with your hot tool and galling (something else ti is known for) creates even more heat and smears ti all over your cutting edge. Ti does work harden at the cutting surface and is the reason you need to use heavy feeds so now we have a hot tool getting hotter and expanding more which makes more contact on the part creating more heat and galling worse etc.
So now you want to heat up the titanium sleeve and push a stainless barrel into it.....I say its not going to work well. Perhaps in a short bushing you could do this but in a 20" or more setup its not likely to make it to the end without seizing.
I love working with Ti as it has enough hardness to cut clean and pretty. Its pretty easy to work with if you use sharp tooling (no titanium nitride coatings though) and keep the feeds right. Coolant is important and composition of the coolant is important as some contaminate the Ti and cause cracking. I machined a lot of indy car and airplane parts from Ti and they worked great in their applications but not in all. Using it for barrels is a no-go as far as I know.

Frank
 
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