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Rifle Scopes Totally disgusted with Leupold

Terry Cross

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Minuteman
Mar 15, 2003
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Alexandria, LA 71303
www.kmwlrs.com
I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that shit back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.

TC
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

All good points Terry.

Yes, Chinese labor is freaking dirt cheap and I agree that Leupold has dropped in quality and not in price.

A lot of hide vendors could make more money by sourcing stuff from China, I'm glad that you don't and appreciate the availability of a slightly more expensive product that shines in quality.

Jason
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Amen to everything you said. Profits are great but when they come at the cost of quality and depriving your own customers and fellow citizens of jobs, prosperity and safety (I don't particularly trust products from China or the intentions of the Chinese government) they are false profits (pun there).
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

A very valid rant. I hate seeing companies take the short-sighted view of increasing profits by cheapening the brand. I'll gladly pay a little more for a high quality product that I can trust.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Amen,

Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.

The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.

Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard.
 
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Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sign of the times! Very sad; but if someone was kind enough to direct them to this thread..... You'd be amazed at the results sometimes!
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sign of the times! Very sad; but if someone was kind enough to direct them to this thread..... You'd be amazed at the results sometimes! </div></div>

Doubtful, they have never been very friendly to this audience in the least bit. Every now and then they will hire someone who'll listen a bit, but they have yet to step up and actually "listen" to the customer feedback and make changes based on that input.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I've read somewhere that in the Chinese mfg circles, they go by some kind of creedo that translates roughly to something like 'its almost right'

This was an article on a engineer who moved to China to work direclty with the mfg from some big company here in the US. One of his beefs was trying to get the people in the plant to go the 'extra' mile and fix a problem. But they always came back and said 'its almost right'.

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Not good at all. We are painting ourselves into a corner and when the poop hits the fan, what will we do????

Maybe we need to compile a list of manufacturers/products to blacklist.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Amen, OP. I live close to Leupold and have tried to engage their reps at some of the local trade shows. They are nice people, and although they are willing to listen to me as individuals, their responses indicate that corporate has a business model from which it will not deviate. I really want to purchase Leupold products, mainly because it is an American company which is local to me (and believe me, the PNW needs more companies to employ people), but they make it really hard for me to do so.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Its no secret that Leupy's QC has dropped considerably over the past several years. Their Mk IV line used to be the benchmark by which others were compared. Now, hoever, I would classify them merely as an entry level scope that you get to learn on until you can afford to upgrade.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Leupold started out ~ 100 years ago, but I did not know of them until reading the adds in Shooter's Bible 1963.

In 1963 Leupold, Lyman, Redfield, Weaver, Bushnell, and Unertl all wanted between $50 and $60 for a 4X scopes.

By 1996 I noticed that old used Leupold 4X scopes were worth $100, while the Weavers were worth $20.

I own old scopes like that from Leupold, Lyman, Redfield, Weaver, Bushnell, and Unertl.
And the Leupold is best.
Worth the extra money.


I own VX1, VXII, VXIII, MK1V, vari-II, and vari III scopes from Leupold.

The last time I compared them to my IOR scope, they were not as good.

And now Leupold wants returns to pay shipping both ways.

It looks like there are changes at Leupold.

Technology not keeping up, service down, prices up.

I can only imagine that it is the fault of management at Leupold wanting to take the easy way out and think short term.

It is always a shame to see a great name take that hit.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strickland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read somewhere that in the Chinese mfg circles, they go by some kind of creedo that translates roughly to something like 'its almost right'</div></div>

Haha, that's right, I think the translation is "It's good enough." Maybe after a couple more decades of capitalism, they'll discover the value of quality workmanship, but for now... "it's good enough" for them. After all, they're making money hand over fist with this attitude right now, what incentive do they have to change? (Not saying it's right, just saying that's the current situation.)
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold



Originally Posted By: Strickland
I've read somewhere that in the Chinese mfg circles, they go by some kind of creedo that translates roughly to something like 'its almost right'


Haha, that's right, I think the translation is "It's good enough." Maybe after a couple more decades of capitalism, they'll discover the value of quality workmanship, but for now... "it's good enough" for them

Russians have a similar saying "Perfect is the enemy of good enough"

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

All good points Terry.

Unfortunately Leupold has fallen into the trap of selling product based on a hard earned reputation that no longer applies. As others have said 20-40 years ago leupold was one of the top games in optics, certainly to the average-intermediate shooter. Their glass was better, the adjustments were better the durability was better. Their customer service is still pretty good after the sale but QC has tanked, and with other competitors coming in for those doing the research Leupold is no longer anywhere near the top of the price/quality equation.

All of that has fallen by the wayside now, and prices have done nothing but climb. Their glass does not compete with scopes of equal price, their reticules are not plumb, they refuse to listen to their customers etc. etc.

The whole outsourcing to china to gain profits at the cost of quality is pathetic. I've said this before I have no doubt that China is technically capable of producing top quality goods. However, experience has shown over every industry that quality tanks when companies outsource to China, worse yet they keep the prices the same increasing profits on a large scale.

Arcteryx has done this the last few years, a lot of their stuff is now made in China and while it's still very good gear, if you compare the same garment from Canada to the China version there are differences, of course their product prices didn't drop at all even though it's costing them a fraction for production now. The same thing happened to North Face, Marmot, Mountain hardware etc. top quality gear till they started making it out of the country and then quality tanked.

Hopefully as other companies come into the market and as people start to learn Leupold is not what they once were they will have to improve their product and become competitive again. I know at least one shop that since they have started carrying the NF line their sales of MK4's has tanked.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Leupold is simply way behind the curve with respect to tactical shooters.

They offer few scopes with FFP reticles, and their idea of a suitable increment for a scope which adjusts in fractions of a milliradian is one scope with 0.05 mil clicks, which is too fine of an adjustment for a tactical scope.

I have several Leupold scopes from years past, all of which had Gen II FFP mods by Premier, and I'll keep those scopes.

But the quality issues aside, there is nothing in the product offerings to attract me.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

US optic???

The US has some fine optic makers and quality products but as stated before you must pay for that quality. It no different for S&B its not like that thing is a 100 bucks even for the Germans.

the Chinese think different and we get the reward for their philosophy.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which way to go then?
Premier Reticles Heritage, or S&B?
</div></div>

I only have experience with S&B, and you could never go wrong with S&B. That said, from what I've seen and read about people's experiences with Premiers, they don't seem far off S&B in terms of quality.

The prices sure are similar!
smile.gif


But S&B's been around for 50+ years and they have a 30 yr warranty and a kick ass customer service reputation... let's see how Premier Heritage scopes hold up over the coming years.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

i have been buying leupold optics lately mostly because i thought it was one of the few made in the u.s.a. in fact i have a gold ring spotter that will be here tomarrow. i guess thats what i get for not digging deeper. is there a full range optics manufacturer that still build in the u.s.a.? scopes, range finders, spotters, binos?
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Well I hate to say it but I agree, they want top dollar for their product because it has their name on it, I have a Nikon Buckmaster which I think has better glass than my loopies
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gewgaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Paduan Learner said:
But S&B's been around for 50+ years and they have a 30 yr warranty and a kick ass customer service reputation... </div></div>

Great product, im not sure about the KA CS
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Now I'm F...ing pissed-off! God Dammit, I just spent some of my hard earned money on a VXIII thinking the extra cost was worth it, and most of all because I thought it was manufactured/MADE IN THE USA!!!

Son of a Bitch that's burning my ass right now. F..k, F..k, Mother F...er!

Bought a Nikon Buckmaster that I'm happy with, bought a VXII for $30 more dollars because it was supposed to be made in the USA, sold it to a buddy telling him the best reason to by it was because it was made in the USA instead of a Nikon, bought VXIII for a $120 more....again because I thought it was made in the USA....

Well check this out Leupold....FUCK YOU! I was feeling bad for just buying a Falcon so I had some type of tactical scope until I could afford a Mark 4 THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Sorry guys, I'm just really sitting here brewing right now, gotta chill-out before my f..king head pops!

-Pat
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sad state of affairs. I've been a Leupold fan for a while myself.

Gee, no wonder we are seeing Leupold knock-offs coming in from China....

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: He Shoot Me</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I'm F...ing pissed-off! God Dammit, I just spent some of my hard earned money on a VXIII thinking the extra cost was worth it, and most of all because I thought it was manufactured/MADE IN THE USA!!!

Son of a Bitch that's burning my ass right now. F..k, F..k, Mother F...er!

Bought a Nikon Buckmaster that I'm happy with, bought a VXII for $30 more dollars because it was supposed to be made in the USA, sold it to a buddy telling him the best reason to by it was because it was made in the USA instead of a Nikon, bought VXIII for a $120 more....again because I thought it was made in the USA....

Well check this out Leupold....FUCK YOU! I was feeling bad for just buying a Falcon so I had some type of tactical scope until I could afford a Mark 4 THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Sorry guys, I'm just really sitting here brewing right now, gotta chill-out before my f..king head pops!

-Pat </div></div>
take it easy man, hardly anything we buy is made in the USA anymore,why is the economy so screwed up?
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

And what really pisses me off is these companies taking "stimulus" money, to help them in their transitioning their manufacturing overseas.

According to the news, China is now the country driving the global automobile market. And you know damn well it's our dollars they are spending on cars.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sorry but what a bunch of whiners! US Optics makes a great product in the USA and what does one cost? $2,000-$3,000 and a comparable Leupold costs around $1,000. Now maybe the US Optic is a better product but even if they made one exactly the same quality as a Leupold it would still be twice as much due mainlly to the fact that it's made in the USA.

If you guys don't think that stuff can be made as good, or better, in China then it is here in the USA you are sadly mistaken. YEs China can, and does, built cheap crap but they can also build stuff every bit as good as can be made in the USA. It all depends on what the manufacture is looking for. If all they want is stuff to be cheap they can do that but if high quality is required and paid for that can also be done provided that you have proper QC in the plant in China.

Could someone tell me on a single laser rangefinder that's made in the USA? Or for that matter a binocular that's made here?
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

My irritation is the fact that manufacturers are so willing to sellout their own country for the profit of a very few.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

If I were king for a day, I'd make corporate CEOs live and be citizens of the country where most of their employees live.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Any company with overseas plants for end-items, or parts, sure as fuck wouldn't qualify for "stimulus" or "bailout" dollars from U.S. taxpayers.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

BTW,

I just looked over the box that my Leupold Sequoia 15-45x60 spotting scope came in....


....Made in Korea....
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry but what a bunch of whiners! US Optics makes a great product in the USA and what does one cost? $2,000-$3,000 and a <span style="color: #3333FF">comparable Leupold costs around $1,000</span>. </div></div>

There is no comparable Leupold scope.........
Call Leupy and ask them what there tolerances are for reticle cant.

I have a 16X old MK4, and it is a fine scope. Side by side with a 16X Super Sniper you MAY be able to tell the difference.

Luepy's mfg costs go down with outsourcing and the prices on their scope lines have gone up greatly in the past few years.

Leupy doesn't give a rat's ass about the precision market, they have oodles and oodles of shooters that shoot maybe 20rds a year that are a very solid and brand loyal market. Like Lowlight said, every once in a while they get an employee that listens to end user wants on their MK4 line, and they wind up pissing up the corporate gameplan rope.

Would I buy another Leupy? Hell yes-if I ever find the same kind of screaming deal on an old MK4 fixed that I did on my current one, or if a fellow sillywet shooter is unloading a 6.5-20EFR or 25X FXIII for a great price.
Will I buy one for retail- oh HELL NO!!
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I have an older Vari X III 6.5-20LR on a .22-250 that does great. I also have a USO SN6 on my .308

Throwing Premier, USO, NF, S&B into the discussion is apples to oranges. Who else is there in the $700-1000 price range that makes decent glass and is still made in the US?
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

WTF. I just ordered a Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm in large part because I thought it was made 100% in the USA. I was going to order a Nightforce, but after discovering they are made in Japan (at least the 5.5-22x that I looked at was), I decided to order the Leupold.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Amen,
If all these companies keep having outsourcing overseas people like me won't even have a job. I think my employer would fire me if I got caught with something made in china.

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I was just gonna order a leupold range finder, based on the assumption they were "made in the usa" with u.s. parts, made by americans (gotta specify that now days, cuz alot of made in usa stuff is now made by illegals!). Never woulda thought!
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Thanks, Terry.

This is old news, and I've reported on the decline of Lupy for years now, but someone like you garners more attention and respect than I do. I appreciate you stepping up and being heard, as it's that many more people who might start to put Lupy's feet to the fire. Their reps at SHOT were the worst ever this year, esp. the tactical booth. They had "stupid" written all over their faces.

They were once a grand old company, but they need new blood, badly.

Not to be miscontrued as a mysogynist, but I've been told their corporate product manager is a woman, thus the pink binos and drizzle paint jobs on the scopes. Out of touch, indeed!

Scott

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Good post. Especially with the disclaimers. It takes courage to question things people have come to accept.

Now, about the L word. I agree with the concern over quality and unhappiness with work being shipped out, and the part about putting people's feet to the fire. More shooters can make a difference by asking the company the hard questions and communicating directly with them to make changes. Look at the work Premier has done in response to the comments from shooters, and other companies finally seeing the need to place the reticle on the FFP. It's just that Leupold sells so much product (I think both Walmart, Target and Bed, Bath and Beyond have a special running right now) that it would be difficult to get them to change their business model.

Bigger companies that last a long time are more likely to eventually be taken over by people that do not realize what gave the good company its name to begin with, and once the work starts to slide elsewhere, any attempt to return to the standard is marginalized.

I do not agree with the comments about the SHOT Show reps though, especially at the Tactical Booth. We must have visited on different days. When I was there I saw two old friends. One was a former Marine of some renown in my circles, and the other was retired Army, although he mainly served his time shooting rifles from little birds to protect his buddies, like when that black hawk went down over there in Africa somewhere. Tactical rifles are high and holy things to them.

The best way to make a statement in the market is choosing not to purchase from that store.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sell what you use, use what you sell Terry.

My problem with Leupold has always been the same, they sell junk, and they sell good stuff, how is the customer supposed to know what he's getting, other company's don't adhere to these standards, NightForce, S&B, Ziess, have products of a set standard, buy it or leave, there place of origin is of little matter to the people who buy there products.
 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Acknowledging that the Chinese can be paid enough to produce a quality product, the failure rate of Leupolds seem to indicate that they elected to not go with the top of the line vendor. Even if they are assembling a lot of their product in the Oregon plant, those product failures reflect the fact that they are using poor project assembly controls or the imported components they are using during assembly are of poor quality/design.

Let me clarify that I am NOT bad mouthing all imports. Most are pretty darned good. Almost all of the other makers make no bones about the origin of their product and that's cool. I own LRFs made in Portugal and Switzerland. Scopes made in Japan. Binoculars made in Japan and in China. Hearing protection from Sweden. Some stuff from Germany and a shit load of stuff from U.S. manufacturing. In each case, I knew where the stuff was coming from before hand.

Leupold has developed their reputation and brand around that Made In U.S.A. mantra. In recent years, their corporate directives have purposefully led them away from their core strengths and values. They continue this while still riding on their brand recognition and carefully camouflaging their true direction. We all know that an operation that size never could get enough quality glass domestically to meet their needs. But that was common knowledge and accepted as an un-avoidable logistics concern. This is something totally different.

You will occaisionally see an article where Leupold brings in all the top SWAT and military operators for a think tank workshop so that they can bring innovation to their products and evolve their product lines. Not to discredit whom ever they bring there but geez! They must be getting very poor input or, just as likely do what ever their own guys want just as soon as the guests leave.

For those of you that have Leupold products coming, I'm sure you will get satisfactory service from the item. I'm not trying to poop on your choice. You may even be lucky enough to get one of the few items they sell that is manufactured where you thought it was.

99.9% of my customers that spec Leupold believe the product is at least in the major scheme of things, made here. Not true but they sure had no clue. All of these customers have researched the products and the competitive offerings. They still had no clue. This means that Leupold's gamble is paying nice dividends.

I really hate this whole deal because I grew up with expectations for Leupold and a few other companies that are sadly being dashed in the face of our new Global business realities.

I feel like I just cussed out my own Grandma. I'm going to go act ashamed now.

Bitching and moaning finally subsiding. I just need one of Bolt Rippers spritual and uplifting sermons to heal my wounded soul.

TC

 
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Agreed, I too USED to be a Leuppy fan. It really is sad.

The scary part is that some people depend on there products with their lives. Lets face it, there is a large contengent of professionals behind optics that honestly don't know any better. They think Leupold is the cats ass because it once was and often do not have anything to compare it to.

I got into NF stuff years ago for all the reasons you stated in your first post.