I appreciate everyone's help and input. I might just get the rings from Scheels, looks like they carry some of the nicer rings and pretty sure they will install them. Hopefully they know what they are doing better then I do haha. If they match price I may buy a HIT there too. Will make things a little easier.
Rifle Scopes Trying to pick first scope MK5 vs RZ3
- Thread starter Natetron
- Start date
Learn to mount a scope yourself is some advice I will give you. I wouldn't trust anyone at a gun store after seeing a lot of train wrecks over the years.
Absolutely get a set of torque tools to do the rings, and preferably your action screws. Fix-it stix limiters are the way to go. For travel, they are buy once purchase. More or less money could be spent, but they are the sweetspot. The kits with a couple unqiue values are what you want.
Have heard good things. Might just get the all in one, to make sure I can get to the correct setting. I think vortex is 18 inch/lbs and the kit is 15 and think 20 or 25.
It's actually really easy and tough to screw up unless you use foot pound torque wrenches. LOL I use Fix It Sticks and they work great. Don't stress being 18in/lbs on the ring caps. I use 20 in/lbs for many years now and never messed up a scope. The all in one kit is a good one to have. I have one in my range bag. The tools I use to mount a scope are a cheap level from I don't even remember where, Fix it sticks and a small piece of tape which is only to put on scope tube next to the front of the ring so I know where my eye relief is set when setting the scope back into the rings and leveling before torquing ring caps. Takes me about 10 min to mount a scope now. PM if you need help when you find a rifle.
$100 fix it sticks all in one kit, $5 set of feeler gauges, and some orange or blue loctite is all you need. Don’t buy the limiters, they aren’t as precise as the all in one and you’d need a dozen of them to do what the all in one can.
A decent torque wrench is an absolute necessity if you own a precision rifle beyond just mounting scopes.
Actually the limiters are more precise than the all in one in all the testing shown on line but both are plenty accurate to mount a scope.
Ohh yeah?
Torque Wrench Shootout: Reviews + Tests
As I mentioned in this thread: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/torque-wrench-reviews.7136523/ , the torque wrench I’ve been using for the past seven years was stolen. Since I needed to replace it, I decided to grab a few different options and test them to see which one I liked the...
www.snipershide.com The torque limiters work or of friction which is nowhere near as consistent and also wear over time.
They absolutely are more accurate for the same reasons a beam style is more accurate than a click style.
These are a great option. You get the added benefit of getting to meet the people at ARC when you have to call them to let them know they cracked in half. Not once but sometimes twice. The good news is ARC will refund you the cash if you ask. Happens enough, they know the drill.ARC M-Brace 34mm, and depending on your gun setup, will depend on your height. Most rifle setups Low rings will clear just fine. But if you go with something like the Christensen Arms MPR that has a full handguard that goes on top of the barrel, you'll need High rings.
So, traditional rifle setup with a 20MOA base, i'd go with these...
American Rifle Company M-BRACE 34mm Picatinny-Style Scope Rings Low
The American Rifle Company M-Brace Scope Rings will hold firmly without marring or indenting the scope, even under the heaviest recoil. The uniquely...www.midwayusa.com
If you're going with a chassis style gun that has a covered barrel handguard...
American Rifle Company M-BRACE 34mm Picatinny-Style Scope Rings High
The American Rifle Company M-Brace Scope Rings will hold firmly without marring or indenting the scope, even under the heaviest recoil. The uniquely...
The limiters are way better. Just plan out your purchase so your rings use similar torques as your action screws. Eg, the NF UL rings use 25/65, which overlaps with 65 in/lb on the Tikka and R700 action screws.
The people that work at those stores (I used to be one of them, and was the ONLY one allowed to mount optics and rails for good reason) are beyond retarded. I don't even trust the fuckers to put a bolt in without fucking something up.
I would normally recommend Spuhr for mounts but their recent price increase is insane. For a once Piece mount the MPA is hard to beat for the money. For rings, Just grab some Seekins/Vortex Precision Machined. Nightforce, Badger, MDT, MPA or even Spugr rings are fine, especially if you want to add rails or a electronic level. I would recommend atleast 1.25 if not 1.5" if you go with a mount. Most chassis or stock need this for proper fundamental shooting. The old days of smashing your face into a stock to get as low as possible is gone.
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I have never heard of a single problem with ARC rings, especially cracking. But if you love cracks, get you a ZCO in a Spuhr mount…They’ll both crack at the same time under zero use.
Maybe you should go out and shoot more. Have seen it happen to 5 different people, with 2 of them happening twice. This is just at matches I have been in with guys in the squad having failures. Some are even on this site and have mentioned it.I have never heard of a single problem with ARC rings, especially cracking. But if you love cracks, get you a ZCO in a Spuhr mount…They’ll both crack at the same time under zero use.
I ran multiple ZCO and Spuhr for years with zero issues. Same with a ton of guys I know who shoot ZCO. Retards who can't operate a torque wrench are to blame.
Mbrace has design weakness that cannot be overcome without a complete re-design. Its a shame too because I love ARC rings, but until the unfuck it, its can be relied on.
I shoot thousands of rounds per year. I get out plenty. Never had a problem with any of my Seekins or ARC rings.
I don’t think the objective lenses cracking was caused by a torque wrench, since there’s no screws or bolts up there. But were it an internal lens cracking issue, sure, I’d believe the torque wrench problem, because I’ve seen tards torque one so hard it cracks the internal lenses and crushed the tube. As for the Spuhr issues, those were also from people using proper torque specs, according to their reports, which, nobody can verify unless they were there. Just like the people cracking the ARC rings, are also probably from the same scenario, if I had to take a SWAG.
What is the design weakness? Where are they cracking? I torque mine to a very accurate 55 in.lbs. and have had zero issues.
Not to be a smartass but thats a low sample. Most of us who compete are shooting upwards of 10K precision rifle per year....with alot of them shooting even more. Shooting by yourself, odds are you wont have an issue.
Then add in the people you shoot with. That's hundreds of people over the course of a year just in your squad, that you are talking to, watching, and seeing how things hold up.
You need a sample size big enough to start to make conclusions.
Every single one has broken at the same spot. The paws shear off but its no obvious while you are shooting. Your zero will start to walk away and you will go crazy trying to figure out why, until you look closely at the rings/mount. 5 personal instances where I have seen or had someone tell me theirs broke in that same way is enough.
Then add in the people you shoot with. That's hundreds of people over the course of a year just in your squad, that you are talking to, watching, and seeing how things hold up.
You need a sample size big enough to start to make conclusions.
Every single one has broken at the same spot. The paws shear off but its no obvious while you are shooting. Your zero will start to walk away and you will go crazy trying to figure out why, until you look closely at the rings/mount. 5 personal instances where I have seen or had someone tell me theirs broke in that same way is enough.
I had an ARC ring crack at the pin and it was torqued to spec. I’ve only used a couple sets and they also left hella ring on optics other rings didn’t. They are also documented to cause issues on ZCO’s due to the amount of torque which is also question. I don’t think they’re the worst rings, but they’re aren’t the best.
I’ve had a couple Spuhrs crack too. A couple forward rings caps on the old style caps probably from me using my objective as a carry handle on a 20lbs gun, and then a clamp bar crack. Neither caused any issues at all other than cosmetics and Spuhr (Mile High) just sent me replacements.
I also don’t take product feedback from people who think Christensen, Dead Air, Burris, and Kahles make good stuff seriously.
I’ve had a couple Spuhrs crack too. A couple forward rings caps on the old style caps probably from me using my objective as a carry handle on a 20lbs gun, and then a clamp bar crack. Neither caused any issues at all other than cosmetics and Spuhr (Mile High) just sent me replacements.
I also don’t take product feedback from people who think Christensen, Dead Air, Burris, and Kahles make good stuff seriously.
I don’t take advice from egomaniacs who pretend to be some sort of expert, but have never posted a single picture of a gun, group, target, piece of brass, ammo, etc… Or never post things positive, that aren’t constantly shitting on everyone and everything they don’t agree with or like, and think they know everything, and are better than everyone else.
I haven't personally had a SPUHR crack yet but I can see why they resdesigned the clamping bar, and I am not a fan of the soft fastners they use. I think I have been through like 8 or 9 spuhr mounts in the last few years through 34mm, 36mm back to 34 and some 30's. I have heard about it, but never actually seen it at a match. I have heard of the clamping bar breaking and could see where the fastners would strip if not using good bits and not overtoruqing, which IMO is the key.
You can mitigate issues with Spuhr by not being a gorilla. If a T20 screw starts to get wallered out, i replace it. I only run 15in on the cap screws and 25in on the rail bolts. While I don't like the soft fastners, I would rather them be the failure point than the machined mount. You want the weak link to be the cheapest/easiest part to replace. And mount, object or system is going to have a weakest link.
With ARC, its a strait design flaw that no amount of mitigation is going to fix. Whats weird is I don't remember these issues with M10 rings, which I love. Hell I still got a set from my old ZCO NRL hunter setup. Its only the Mbrace so far we have seen fail. You would think it would be an issue with both but maybe the mount puts force from a different direction than independent rings do.
Ohh yeah?
Torque Wrench Shootout: Reviews + Tests
As I mentioned in this thread: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/torque-wrench-reviews.7136523/ , the torque wrench I’ve been using for the past seven years was stolen. Since I needed to replace it, I decided to grab a few different options and test them to see which one I liked the...
The torque limiters work or of friction which is nowhere near as consistent and also wear over time.
They absolutely are more accurate for the same reasons a beam style is more accurate than a click style.
Not from the test I saw and will have to find it but the bottom line is both work fine. The limiter was a small percentage more accurate but both were not far off. I have been using my Fix It Sticks Torque limiters for 7 years and never damaged anything or had anything go lose but also use an All in One and the same. It's another non argument honestly. Whichever Fix It Sticks he gets will work fine.
Spuhr redesigned the caps to the current more scalloped style from the blocky style because they were cracking by the screws and they've redesigned the clamping bar a few times now. All of my stuff was properly torqued but I in my case of the caps cracking (old style) I was misusing the mount too.
The clamp bar I had break wasn't the newest style but the previous on a 4002 mount that was removed and replaced hundreds of times. I constantly used that optic to test other rifles and do load development. It got torqued on a lot and was probably a pretty extreme use case. Still the cracking didn't actually cause any functional problems. Considering that it affected nothing it's totally a non issue to me.
Nice callout.
I'm sure Ted is going to come here and spill the beans about his mounts breaking. Or his Mags failing.
Just like any manufacture would....LOL
Reminds me of Josh from PVA "In 10 years i have had 2 barrels that had issues" . That's real funny, since I have 6 people in a group chat who ALL had issues with your barrels and refused to do business with him anymore . Luckily there are plenty of white knights around to make noise and to be honest, most people don't want the attention and would rather just move on and shoot another product that works.
Seek me out at Texas. One of the guys in squad 14, I saw his broken MBRACE at a match. We can go talk to him about it.
Then you can come back here and publicly apologize to everyone if you have any integrity.
Zero callout. You say it's a design flaw. So, tell use what the flaw is. And Ted can respond if he likes.
You just got done telling a guy he's a sample of one and now you're saying we can talk to a guy who had one break. I know a guy who's Schmidt filled with water once. Design flaw apparently.
You're making the statements, so, just tell us what the design flaw is that you know about. So that consumers can understand the flaw and Ted can fix it if he decides to.
Good to know. With the massive price increases and Spuhr mounts now costing $500, I don't think its going to matter much going forward.
Time to start looking at MPA and Grey Ops.
And what do you expect him to say? "uh yea our shit breaks".......rofl. An astute businessman such as yourself should understand the dynamics of this type of discussion.
The thin little paws that make the hinge will crack and shear off. That's where the failure has been every time with the ones I have seen and guys giving me first hand accounts of it happening to them.
I brought up one guy as an example of ONE of the people I have personally seen who had the issue, who coincidentally will be at a match we are both shooting. Sorry everyone who had one break will not be at the match for your convenience. Actually one of the other guys that had his break twice is buddies with a guy in squad 17. And to make this really funny. 2 or 3 of the the guys who had issues with PVA are in squad 11 if we really want to drag our dicks across the carpet.
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So, you know of 5 people (with two of them twice).....your exact words. So, a sample size of 10 or less mounts.....out of thousands sold.
I can find 5 people who have had problems with every single product on the market. Many of them with multiple issues with the same product.
If this is your argument for a design flaw, I'd suggest you reassess what you think a good sample size is. As well as your standard for dragging a company through the mud publicly. Bringing up PVA isn't relevant at all and a separate conversation.
Thank god we have a white knight like you to just gloss over issues. Does Feniks Technologies errr I mean Rio sell these products Davey?
As much as I respect Ted and his innovations, he tends to put out shit as beta when its not ready. Lets see off the top of my head:
1. Gen 1 Nuke issues getting it timed. This action was redesigned shortly after. I sold it as soon as I could.
2. Barlock or whatever the barrel nut thingy was for the Nuke would not repeat headspace. They dont even sell this piece of shit anymore.
3. Have already had Three (3) ARC mags replaced under warranty. Still having issues with ones that were triple tested to ensure being in spec. Still wouldn't reliably feed 6.5cm. Upgraded to LRI followers, still not fixing issue. Upgraded to +2 and stretched spring, still not fix issue. I have to disassemble the mag after EVERY match, clean it by hand, Put it in a ziplock bag with dry graphite, shake and clean off exterior to get them to run. As soon as a little mud or debris gets in there, shits the bed again. Only reason I still run them is their form factor. MDT mags suck and Accurate/AICS are too long with an extended.
4. Issues with Mbraces. No need to rehash this.
So if I want to drag a company through the mud based on all the shit I have had to deal with their products, spending time and money sending shit back to be fixed/not fixed, then I have every right too.
I'm not going to hold my tongue for you or anyone else. If you don't like the truth, then feel free to shut the fuck up and stop making issues where there are none.
As much as I respect Ted and his innovations, he tends to put out shit as beta when its not ready. Lets see off the top of my head:
1. Gen 1 Nuke issues getting it timed. This action was redesigned shortly after. I sold it as soon as I could.
2. Barlock or whatever the barrel nut thingy was for the Nuke would not repeat headspace. They dont even sell this piece of shit anymore.
3. Have already had Three (3) ARC mags replaced under warranty. Still having issues with ones that were triple tested to ensure being in spec. Still wouldn't reliably feed 6.5cm. Upgraded to LRI followers, still not fixing issue. Upgraded to +2 and stretched spring, still not fix issue. I have to disassemble the mag after EVERY match, clean it by hand, Put it in a ziplock bag with dry graphite, shake and clean off exterior to get them to run. As soon as a little mud or debris gets in there, shits the bed again. Only reason I still run them is their form factor. MDT mags suck and Accurate/AICS are too long with an extended.
4. Issues with Mbraces. No need to rehash this.
So if I want to drag a company through the mud based on all the shit I have had to deal with their products, spending time and money sending shit back to be fixed/not fixed, then I have every right too.
I'm not going to hold my tongue for you or anyone else. If you don't like the truth, then feel free to shut the fuck up and stop making issues where there are none.
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@DeathBeforeDismount If stuff is breaking, even on other people’s rifles, take a pic. Helps your case (as would just stating what you’ve seen without getting emotionally entangled).
There’s a guy on SH that has had a number of Spuhr mounts crack.Even the newest ones too. (He’s just seen pics/read reports about the new ones)
His handle is @Kiba and he’s had a high failure rate (5 of 11). He’s got pics somewhere.
He admits it could be him. He also says he has bad luck.
There seem to be quite a number of people with Spuhrs breaking out of nowhere (not dropped).
My many M10 ARC mounts are all fine, as is my one Sphur and one new ARC MBrace one-piece. Which means nothing lol
There’s a guy on SH that has had a number of Spuhr mounts crack.
His handle is @Kiba and he’s had a high failure rate (5 of 11). He’s got pics somewhere.
He admits it could be him. He also says he has bad luck.
There seem to be quite a number of people with Spuhrs breaking out of nowhere (not dropped).My many M10 ARC mounts are all fine, as is my one Sphur and one new ARC MBrace one-piece. Which means nothing lol
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Here’s a sample post by Kiba. I gotta admit, unless there’s some super out of spec torque wrench involved (he states he gets his calibrated 4x/yr), I have a hard time disbelieving him.
www.snipershide.com
Spuhr, ZCO, now A419 mounts
All great mounting options, but are we splitting hairs here with which mount provides the better experience? I've been using Spuhr for a few years now, but those A419 videos are really well done.
www.snipershide.com Jesus Christ using hand tools is not that hard. It's a basic man skill.
Stop
Get this instead and have real tools
Don't waste your money on shit tools
Here’s a sample post by Kiba. I gotta admit, unless there’s some super out of spec torque wrench involved (he states he gets his calibrated 4x/yr), I have a hard time disbelieving him.
Spuhr, ZCO, now A419 mounts
All great mounting options, but are we splitting hairs here with which mount provides the better experience? I've been using Spuhr for a few years now, but those A419 videos are really well done.
I do have bad luck with things (running joke with friends and coworkers is give something to me if you want to see how it will hold up; I am not abusive with equipment, but failures always seem to follow me around...) but my spuhr clamp bar failures were likely all on spuhr, as I was using unlubricated hardware (so no extra joint stress from using dry torque values on lubricated fasteners) and I tightened them all using a calibrated torque driver that I verified to be at -3.5% average below the target value in the 40-45 in-lb range (we have full NIST traceable calibration lab at work and I check my torque wrenches about 4 times a year, and keep a spreadsheet of the calibration history so I can see if my wrenches are showing a drifting trend which means it's either time for a rebuild or replacement.)
I even had 2 of the clamp bars fail eventually that were tightened under spuhr spec at 40 in-lb.
All all my failures were the thinner gen 1 clamp bars, I never had a thicker gen 2 clamp bar fail, although other members here have had them fail and posted pics.
And just to piss me off I've installed 3 spuhr unimounts and 3 sets of spuhr rings on rifles for a friend using the same exact torque driver and installation method and he's had zero clamp bar failures in 4 years or so, but all his stuff is gen 2 with the thicker clamp bars. I keep all the bad luck for my own stuff, lol
So far all my M-brace mounts and rings are still in one piece. I'll revisit that purchasing decision if and when they start failing...
@Natetron if you have not ordered the scope yet I have a 30 off cert from europtic that expires the 17th. This makes the bronze G3 2100.00 it wont work on the black one. I can't use it do to being a poors you can have it for free let me know if you can use it.
CURIOSITIES
All this, I don’t think, has anything to do with your situation. It’s just rattling around in my head.On the unlubed fastener front re:Spuhr, my new mount came with wax on the fasteners, and they had this to say about it:
Here’s the link to the manual:
https://www.spuhr.biz/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=3698
When reinstalling, one would think using wax again would be the recommendation, but amusingly they do not address the issue.
I am going to just tig weld my scopes to the rings lol
But seriously, this does not overly concern me. (the wax…tig welding concerns me lol)
Obviously this wax thing doesn’t seem to factor into your mounts cracking. As I understand it, torquing a dry bolt would result in a lower torque value than a lubed bolt would realize. And a waxed bolt would be considered “lubed”? Right?
Side note:
Recently I found out that Locktite does NOT act like a lube. Apparently blue threadlocker has a k-factor near water. Again, tig welding is the solution lol
The very first spuhr mounts I purchased all had obviously waxed hardware. None of the late gen 1 or early gen 2 mounts I purchased came with waxed hardware, the hardware was very dry out of the package. I did not add any extra lube, anti seize, or thread lock on any of my installs... And the clamp bars still failed at an alarming rate, lol. My first hunch was an out of spec rail as the first 2 failures were on the same Murphy precision rail on the same rifle so the rail being out of spec was my initial suspect, but then I had 2 clamp bar failures on 2x JP rifles and 1 failure on an AI AX. At that point evidence points to the material or design (or both) of the clamp bar, because I can say with 100% certainty it wasn't due to using lube on the fasteners or an out of spec torque driver.
Anyways, I've moved on from spuhr and while I still like how they look and how the ring design allows easy viewing of low profile turrets, I won't be buying any more nor recommending them to others until a significant redesign or new material is used for the clamp bars.
And because you two are so hard on equipement, I say @Kiba and @BurtG should form a squad for, say, the Mammoth Sniper Challenge.
I imagine at match’s end, I’ll see two filthy, gaunt, broken men coming into focus in the distance…there!…limping out from under the dark tree canopy.
As they come into focus, their hollowed-out eye sockets make me shiver. The horror!
I see broken belt buckles held together with dental floss, bootlaces gone, a cracked scope, empty scope rings, a rifle bolt broken in half and used as a finger splint, one banana-peeled barrel, a tent used as a shirt, a kazoo stuck in a chamber.
When a tattered backpack is opened, a scared chimp leaps out and races away.
The men are not surprised.
@BurtG ’s sore-encrusted mouth opens to speak. Before he does, a battered LRF falls out of his cargo pocket and hits the ground with a splat. We look down as it dies alone in an oily puddle, it’s backlight slowly fading. Bzzzz-pop!
Somehow, somewhere, we hear an eerie fugue playing. Faintly, in bagpipes? Yes. Schwanda the Bagpiper.
I see a single tear silently roll down @Kiba ‘s cheek, and then the sky opens up.
The rain washes the LRF away.
I imagine at match’s end, I’ll see two filthy, gaunt, broken men coming into focus in the distance…there!…limping out from under the dark tree canopy.
As they come into focus, their hollowed-out eye sockets make me shiver. The horror!
I see broken belt buckles held together with dental floss, bootlaces gone, a cracked scope, empty scope rings, a rifle bolt broken in half and used as a finger splint, one banana-peeled barrel, a tent used as a shirt, a kazoo stuck in a chamber.
When a tattered backpack is opened, a scared chimp leaps out and races away.
The men are not surprised.
@BurtG ’s sore-encrusted mouth opens to speak. Before he does, a battered LRF falls out of his cargo pocket and hits the ground with a splat. We look down as it dies alone in an oily puddle, it’s backlight slowly fading. Bzzzz-pop!
Somehow, somewhere, we hear an eerie fugue playing. Faintly, in bagpipes? Yes. Schwanda the Bagpiper.
I see a single tear silently roll down @Kiba ‘s cheek, and then the sky opens up.
The rain washes the LRF away.
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Well, when I wrote it, I was imagining Burt’s water bottle (all of them) springing a leak. So there wasn’t enough water-carrying ability. This was compounded by the fact that Kiba’s water filter had a small family of bedbugs nesting in it, which then infested both of their sleeping bags.
This was within the first two hrs of the match.
Need I go on? (don’t go all STD-porny on me lol)
I should note that if I was at Mammoth, I would be found expired, face down, slightly rotten, perhaps without a shot fired, in a clump of weeds off the second hill climb.
I think the ending bubbled up from this scene in A Christmas Story.
Taps being played, gently lol
The whole clip, really, has the overall feel I was going for.
Anyway, as you were.
Taps being played, gently lol
The whole clip, really, has the overall feel I was going for.
Anyway, as you were.
I’ve owned two pair and had one crack at the hinge/pin and both left heavy ring marks on optics that other previous rings and mounts had not…
I don't doubt people have had issues. But there's always plenty of failures in every product. And we all know that you are going to hear about problems more so than not. No one makes a point to point out they have had 20 mounts or sold 200 mounts and haven't heard an issue. They do, but only after people start complaining. So, there will always look like a larger % of failures than they really are. Vortex's failure rate for example is very, very low. Because they sell so many optics. But listen to the forum and you'd think they have a huge failure rate.
Combine that with the poster claiming there's a "design flaw" is one of the worst sources for information as well as blows everything out of proportion, and you have a very heavy case for skepticism.
There may very well be a design flaw, as it's always possible. But if you (not you personally) can't specifically articulate what/why and why the design is bad, you should likely stop very short of publicly claiming a design flaw.
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