Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

paraman1

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Due to the current primer situation I cannot locate any small rifle primers and was wondering if there is any factual evidence of problems associated with swapping out for the small pistol primer . I know in some small case loads they reccomend using the SP primer (.22 Hornet) but this would be for .223 . I have several thousand small rifle left but I have a siginificantly larger number of the small pistol .
 

Downzero

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    If you value your face, you will use the proper primers to load in your rifle.

    Pistol primers are not intended to deal with the pressures that a rifle cartridge produces.
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Anecdotal evidence and posts like yours need not post , I am looking for facts of which your post is lacking . If you have evidence that the pistol primer is built less robust than a rifle primer please feel free to post it .
     

    Downzero

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Funny, I don't find any evidence at all in my post, anecdotal or empirical. But since you think someone is going to do a scholarly analysis for you, I will refer you to what I found on Google:

    http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

    It contains the thicknesses of primer cups for several brands of primers, and shows that pistol primers are significantly thinner.

    Do you want me to run the statistics on it too, should I place confidence in your ability to read the raw data and use basic reasoning skills?
     

    jasonk

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Michael, I know of someone who shoots a lot of reduced power loads, very accurately. Using a few grains of blue dot and 40 to 50 gr bullets in the 223. He uses small pistol primers and has great luck with them.

    If powder becomes harder to find I'd shoot more reduced power loads, even less recoil and very accurate from 300 yards in, perfect for plinking and small vermin.

    Jason
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Thanks for the link Downzero . Wouldn't that have been easier to post in the first place rather than some smart-ass response ?
     

    Two Shoes

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Michael,
    the Primer Cups are softer.........you run the risk of a PIERCED primer, and if it's a semi, or a bolt, makes little difference, so I would not use them.
     

    Lumpy Grits

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    One of the reasons for the difference in cups other than the psi. issue is that a handgun hammer/firing pin doesn't "hit" the primer with the same force as a rifles f/p does.
    Respectfully,
    LG
     

    Downzero

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the link Downzero . Wouldn't that have been easier to post in the first place rather than some smart-ass response ? </div></div>

    Only if I'd realized that you required objective evidence that what you were proposing was unsafe.

    Typically opinions are sufficient around here. That's why you come to a forum, typically--to poll opinion.
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Since when has an opinion ever been sufficient around here ? If you don't have facts to back up what your saying then its just speculative at that point . I have seen more people get wound up over nothing when there was absolutely no factual data to back up what they did or did not believe in . If you tried it (accidentally or otherwise) and wound up with a pierced primer or worse then feel free to share the knowledge . If you were there and saw the results first hand then post it . Do you really think anyone here doesn't value their face ?? Give me a break .
     

    Downzero

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since when has an opinion ever been sufficient around here ? If you don't have facts to back up what your saying then its just speculative at that point . I have seen more people get wound up over nothing when there was absolutely no factual data to back up what they did or did not believe in . If you tried it (accidentally or otherwise) and wound up with a pierced primer or worse then feel free to share the knowledge . If you were there and saw the results first hand then post it . Do you really think anyone here doesn't value their face ?? Give me a break . </div></div>

    If you need first hand experience to know that something is stupid, i hope you never try something that is truly dumb and life threatening.
     

    memilanuk

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I'd asked a similar question recently on another forum... specifically I was looking at reduced loads like jasonk mentioned. I figured that with a reduced load using pistol primers, it just might be possible that pistol primers would be sufficient. I ran a few examples in QuickLoad, and found that some of your hotter 9mm +P loads for example, run in the mid-to-upper 30k psi range, and I've been told that some 'magnum' wheelgun loads run well into the 50k psi range. Just looking at QL for a .223 Rem w/ a 50gr bullet and 13gr Blue Dot - a not uncommon load for someone wanting to bridge the gap between a rimfire and a full power .223 load (saying that with a straight face took effort) without buying an extra rifle such as a .22 Hornet - pressures are projected in the mid 30k psi range. Change the bullet to a 35-36gr pill, and the pressures drop down into the upper 20k psi range.

    How accurate are those numbers vs. reality? As some people have mentioned, the main spring in a rifle hits a lot harder than most pistols, and then there's the issue of how *long* the pressure is sustained over the longer barrel length. That said... I've ran into a few people who've done the experimentation and said they had no problems at all. Now I'm not at all sure I'd want to try the same thing with a regular .223 load stuffed full of Varget or RE-15...
     

    noname

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    IPSC shooters have used small rifle primers in 38 super and 9 major loads for years (20 yrs as far as I know) because they are thicker, (called shooters face when the reg. pistol let go). Race guns usually have lighter hammer falls. Also small rifle primers are used in the 454 Casualls (sp) which has a normal Redhawk hammer fall for use with 45LC loads. small pistol works in 22 hornet, but if your using 296, it should be the mag. small pistol.
     

    Regular Guy

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I have used small pistol primers in my 221FB for years with no issues. Start low and work up though.
     

    sf1911a1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I would tend to think there are small rifle and small pistol primers for a reason. usually when there is a marked differentiation like that there is a reason for it. I doubt all the component companies got together and schemed how they could take you for as much as they could. When I can't find small rifle primers i just don't shoot small rifle. This is why I stock up when I can. I've seen a lot of people on here bash others for stock piling, but this is why we do it. Now to continue this topic, let me ask this. Can you reverse it? you guys are saying a pistol primer is too thin for a rifle, could you put a small rifle primer in a small pistol load? Not that I would, but might be nice to know some day.
     

    LSUbeatUby40

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michael,
    the Primer Cups are softer.........you run the risk of a PIERCED primer, and if it's a semi, or a bolt, makes little difference, so I would not use them. </div></div>

    Federal 205's primer cup thickness is .019" Some magnum Pistol Primers are that thick or slightly less..

    I have a few SM mag Pistol primers.. ThinkI'm gonna do the Blue dot deal at reduced lows..
     

    LSUbeatUby40

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michael, I know of someone who shoots a lot of reduced power loads, very accurately. Using a few grains of blue dot and 40 to 50 gr bullets in the 223. He uses small pistol primers and has great luck with them.

    If powder becomes harder to find I'd shoot more reduced power loads, even less recoil and very accurate from 300 yards in, perfect for plinking and small vermin.

    Jason </div></div>

    How much is a few grains of Blue Dot, and what does anyone think about Alliant 2400? Their site says it is a good substitute for the 218 bee and the 22 hornet, so it might be good for a reduced .223 load huh? Anyone?
     

    Pat_Henrys_Ghost

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I have used small pistol primers for .223 subsonic loads in the past, but they wouldn't cycle my AR. I used them in my Contender and a Savage 110. I'll try to post the load info when I get home.
     

    LSUbeatUby40

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat Henrys Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used small pistol primers for .223 subsonic loads in the past, but they wouldn't cycle my AR. I used them in my Contender and a Savage 110. I'll try to post the load info when I get home. </div></div>

    Definitely do that.. Thanks..
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthew</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now to continue this topic, let me ask this. Can you reverse it? you guys are saying a pistol primer is too thin for a rifle, could you put a small rifle primer in a small pistol load? Not that I would, but might be nice to know some day. </div></div>

    I have used the small rifle in Pistol loads for about 7 years . Its pretty common practice for IPSC shooters and also helps keep the number of components you have to keep on hand to a bare minimum . I just got a really good deal on SP primers before I left town for work 4 months ago and stocked up . By the time I get home this whole thing will probably have worked itself out anyway and if not the stuff I have on backorder will have shown up .
     

    trilogymac

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I shot CCI small pistol primers for years in the 90's. I had to load them light as they would pierce if loaded toward max.

    I used 55gr Hornady SP with IMR4895 running 2875 FPS.
    The gun had a rifle length gas system.
    It cycled my AR and killed a bunch of hill country WT at
    < 200yrds.

    Hope this helps.

    Trilogymac
     

    Pat_Henrys_Ghost

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LSUbeatUby40</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat Henrys Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used small pistol primers for .223 subsonic loads in the past, but they wouldn't cycle my AR. I used them in my Contender and a Savage 110. I'll try to post the load info when I get home. </div></div>

    Definitely do that.. Thanks.. </div></div>

    Here it is:

    3.2gr Titegroup
    Nosler 69gr CC HPBT
    CCI #500 primer

    chrono'd at 980fps
    won't cycle my AR or my SLR106.

    The thing about subsonic .223s is that it's cool to shoot in a suppressed rifle, but if you are doing anything other than plinking you may as well use a 22LR. I don't even bother with them anymore since I got the Gemtech HVT for my Rem 700 in .308.
     

    LSUbeatUby40

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers plac

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat Henrys Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LSUbeatUby40</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat Henrys Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used small pistol primers for .223 subsonic loads in the past, but they wouldn't cycle my AR. I used them in my Contender and a Savage 110. I'll try to post the load info when I get home. </div></div>

    Definitely do that.. Thanks.. </div></div>

    Here it is:

    3.2gr Titegroup
    Nosler 69gr CC HPBT
    CCI #500 primer

    chrono'd at 980fps
    won't cycle my AR or my SLR106.

    The thing about subsonic .223s is that it's cool to shoot in a suppressed rifle, but if you are doing anything other than plinking you may as well use a 22LR. I don't even bother with them anymore since I got the Gemtech HVT for my Rem 700 in .308. </div></div>

    This will be for plinking.. Thanks.. 3.2 gr...? Damn.. that is low..
     

    69daytona

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers plac

    A great place to find info on this is the cast boolits web site
    These guys do a lot of shooting with light loads and would be a big help.
     

    Raygun

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers plac

    From a legal liability standpoint, manufacturers are liable for foreseeable use of their product. As such, using pistol primers in rifle cartridges is foreseeable.

    So, they would need to make pistol primers safe in rifle cartridges. For instance, 38 special and 357 magnum; if one must not work in another, then they must make it so it cannot. But then, I believe firearms may be specifically exempt from product liability laws.

    That being said, don't use my opinion to deviate from manufacturer's recommendations.
     

    GCMxVeGeTa

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers plac

    I'm gonna try some CCI SP primers with varget and 50gr V-Max's and let you how that turns out. Hopefully I can get up to my normal load of 23.3 gr.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    It's a question of pressures alright, but there may be other issues as well.

    I wouldn't do it myself, but I would also listen to scenarios where the chamber pressures were carefully limited to pistol pressure levels.

    I mean, I honestly believe there's a genuinely good reason why there isn't just one type of small primer, because if there wasn't, I'd just have to believe folks like Federal and CCI, etc., would be making a killing on their new universal rifle/pistol small primer.

    One reason might have something to do with firing pin strikes, and what sort of primer resistance is used as a design factor when inventing firing pins, etc.

    I appreciate that you want some sort of definitive determinant evidence, and I really do wish I could provide some, really. It would make my life easier, too.

    What I will suggest instead is the strategy I have myself adopted. I substitute rimfire training for a lot of the shooting I would be more normally doing with .223, etc. Also, with several thou small rifle primers, it's quite possible you already have more than enough stockpiled as it is. You sure have a lot more than I do, and I just gave some away to a friend. Honestly, I don't expect these shortages to even last through this Summer.

    But I'm no fortune teller, either...

    Greg
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    I gave up on this particular venture as I have enough primers to get me through the next year or so .

    If I was gonna try this I would start extremely low and work my way up . If I had access to Small Pistol Magnum primers I would try those instead of standard Small Pistol primers as they have a heavier CUP .

    Considering that CCI has shipped the last of the primers that are going to retailers this year I am guessing the primer picture for CCI primers is not going to get any better . Everything they make for the rest of the year is going to CCI/Blount's ammunition manufacturing . At least thats the story I am hearing .
     

    Ladym1871

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    Hi All,
    I was just cruising by and thought I might add my 2cents worth. I have successfully used cci 550 primers (note these are magnum primers, hence thicker) in my 223 winchester cases. I used 23.5gr of 2460 and a 55gr hornady sp. I looked at both standard cci small rifle primers and compared them to the 550's under a microscope and neither had any indication of primer blowback nor primer piercing from my break action single shot.
    Note that should you try this, you are as silly as I am and I assume no responsibility for your silliness. However I did have alot of extra SPMPrimers that I have used up.
     

    5R Milspec

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    Re: Using Small Pistol in Small Rifle primers place

    hey I have been looking at this thread for some time now.so I am going to give my 2 cents worth now.a good friend of mine told me one time that some shooters were known for useing different primers for loading.and this got me to thinking.so I took a 7mm/08 that I had given up on back out.and when I changed the primer to a large pistol primer it closed up a 2 1/2" group to a 3/4" group.and thats all I changed to the load.if I am not mistakeing the load was R15 37.5gn with a 150gn corelokt.and when I looked at the primer like I always do when testing it looked good.it just did flatten the primer.
    with this said I will admit that I am no pro by no means.its just that I think that the primers will work.been there and done that.did I get lucky I cannot answer that.have even loaded them in my 308.cannot remember the load info but it worked.so I guess if you want to try them I would take these guys suggestions and work up a load from the low end.but hey this is something that I did and my opinion.so you do what you think is OK for you.