Veer, you missing something?

[MarinePMI]

Better keep the eyeballs peeled, looks like some fellow Pennsylvanians are rocking some serious party favors...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/1...stolen-in-pennsylvania-atf-offers-reward.html

 

[Veer_G]

I saw that last night. As noted, that's a whole helluva lot of "festivities." I sure hope it gets found before someone puts it into a piñata.

 

[2ndamendfan]

$10,000 for 640 lbs of high explosives!? Doesn't seem like they really grasp the reality of 640 lbs.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Not sure power per pound tanerite vs dynamite but.......

 

[Nik H]

Not sure power per pound tanerite vs dynamite but.......

Tannerite is based on Ammonium Nitrate (primary ingredient) with flash powders built in. It has a detonation velocity between 2,400 to 4,400 m/sec. The latter velocity for ANFO versus pure Ammonium Nitrate.

Dynamite is available in many grades (% of nitro) so it is not easy to provide an exact comparison but some dynamite has much higher detonation velocities (~6,600-7,700 m/sec).

 

[Veer_G]

Tannerite is based on Ammonium Nitrate (primary ingredient) with flash powders built in. It has a detonation velocity between 2,400 to 4,400 m/sec. The latter velocity for ANFO versus pure Ammonium Nitrate.

Dynamite is available in many grades (% of nitro) so it is not easy to provide an exact comparison but some dynamite has much higher detonation velocities (~6,600-7,700 m/sec).

Is the difference geometric, or merely arithmetic?

 

[Nik H]

Is the difference geometric, or merely arithmetic?

Not sure what you mean Veer. The detonation velocity measures the velocity of the shock wave created upon detonation. The faster the shock wave, the more powerful the explosive. Ammonium Nitrate based explosives are poor as compared to more modern preparations. However they are easier to fabricate, thus the fascination and widespread use.

Enjoy while you can. It will be banned soon enough.

 

[lash]

I'm pretty sure that I would be looking VERY closely at all of the company employees or subs that had knowledge of it's whereabouts prior to the heist. It strikes me as odd that a company would store so much of such a product without any surveillance equipment. At the least a game camera or two. Those are cheap, easily concealed, and don't require auxiliary power or devices to operate. We used to use them as small contractors, on job sites where we expected petty thievery or vandalism (most of them). That strikes me as a very insecure way to store explosives in this day and age.

 

[crane op]

They uped it to 20,000 dollars they told us on our job that it was c4 and blasting caps that was stolen.

 

[Foul Mike]

I don't worry so much at how many lbs. of materiel were taken if it is used in that way, as I worry about the caps stolen.
That is he thing that bothers me.

 

[mdmp5]

What did mcveigh use comparative to that explosion?

 

[softcock]

Not to damn hard to miss which trailer container to break-in Steal out of . When it mandatory must be advertised front and back with ..
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-

 

[Nik H]

What did mcveigh use comparative to that explosion?

ANFO or so it was said

 

[MarinePMI]

I don't worry so much at how many lbs. of materiel were taken if it is used in that way, as I worry about the caps stolen.
That is he thing that bothers me.

Yep, explosives are easy to make. Blasting/detonation boosters...not so easy.

 

[mdmp5]

ANFO or so it was said

Reason I asked is that explosion above didn't look that impressive for 600 lbs. Looked similar to the tannerite hog explosion video, but certainly not big enough to wipe the side off a building from a van outside.

 

[Nik H]

Yep, explosives are easy to make. Blasting/detonation boosters...not so easy.

MUCH more unstable

 

[fdkay]

Yep, explosives are easy to make. Blasting/detonation boosters...not so easy.

That's what TATP is for, and it is fairly easy to make as well, just very unstable.

 

[Nik H]

Reason I asked is that explosion above didn't look that impressive for 600 lbs. Looked similar to the tannerite hog explosion video, but certainly not big enough to wipe the side off a building from a van outside.

The explosion above was Tannarite which is about half the detonation velocity of ANFO. I believe that McVeigh had 2,000 lbs of ANFO in the truck which would be 4,000 lbs of tannarite.

There is a lot more to taking out a structure using explosives than the type of explosive used....based on what I've read

 

[mdmp5]

The explosion above was Tannarite which is about half the detonation velocity of ANFO. I believe that McVeigh had 2,000 lbs of ANFO in the truck which would be 4,000 lbs of tannarite.

There is a lot more to taking out a structure using explosives than the type of explosive used....based on what I've read

Ah I see. Yes, the placement is key, but I thought that particular bomb was from a van parked right outside. But yes, I wasn't aware it was an equivalent of 7x the bang

 

[Nik H]

That's what TATP is for, and it is fairly easy to make as well, just very unstable.

DDNP...that takes ice water in your arteries

 

[MarinePMI]

So is NI3, but you won't see me making or touching that stuff. Hence my point, stable boosters are hard to make. Explosives...not so hard.

Then again, black powder, cardboard tube and a soldered up flashlight bulbs would work too I suppose...

 

[Nik H]

So is NI3, but you won't see me making or touching that stuff. Hence my point, stable boosters are hard to make. Explosives...not so hard.

Then again, black powder, cardboard tube and a soldered up flashlight bulbs would work too I suppose...

Not familiar with it but if it is a triiodide, it probably can't even be transported.

 

[fdkay]

So is NI3, but you won't see me making or touching that stuff. Hence my point, stable boosters are hard to make. Explosives...not so hard.

Then again, black powder, cardboard tube and a soldered up flashlight bulbs would work too I suppose...

Dat's the facts, jack!!!
Can't use your MRE heater for that!

 

[Strykervet]

$10,000 for 640 lbs of high explosives!? Doesn't seem like they really grasp the reality of 640 lbs.

DUDE, NO SHIT!!! First off, $10k isn't enough money to turn someone in who has that much stolen ordnance, that won't even cover the extra security you're gonna need for ratting the guy out. And $10k? I guess an atom bomb would only have a reward of $1million or so. Don't they get that's MORE than enough demo to carry out a few 9/11's if used properly? I've blown that much at once before and it makes a BIG boom!

I like how the "security" company didn't notice MISSING LOCKS and OPEN DOOR on an explosives storage container for THREE DAYS. That shit should have been checked every hour, on the hour. Should have had a motion operated camera too with an alarm. What a fucking mess.

Yeah, they'll find it eventually. It'll be "Breaking News" on all the propaganda outlets for weeks and I'm sure gun control will get thrown in there with it somehow.

It's what, 2018? This shit is still going on? I think it's a wrap people, this is as good as it gets.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

As taught to us, McVeigh (et al) used ~2,500 lbs of 'the mix' in the truck. There's a lot more information that goes with those details though, with regards to "Cause and Effect."

And on a whole other note, of a whole other topic, Brisance is the difference.

 

[Nik H]

Yes...that is why ANFO works quite well. Slower velocity (lower pressure) detonations shake the shit out of things.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When we did our Boot Camp/ITR indoctrination on caps, time fuses, and det cord, etc. materials; they basically scared the Hell out of me. that was probably the intended outcome, come to think of it.

Later, I went to Engineer Electrician School, and Demo was very visibly absent from our training. They showed us how to use a Thermite Grenade to destroy a generator in place, and that was the show, folks.

'Scuse me while I shuffle along toward the next topic...

Greg

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

That does not scare me at all, but there are other things that keep me up at night, even though I do not live in a big city

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

As taught to us, McVeigh (et al) used ~2,500 lbs of 'the mix' in the truck. There's a lot more information that goes with those details though, with regards to "Cause and Effect."

And on a whole other note, of a whole other topic, Brisance is the difference.

If nitro-methane had been added to the mix the out come would have been very different. He tried to obtain it but because he did not know the were as's an wherefores he struck out. China makes it an has a huge quantity, but the import restrictions are many. If he was smart he could have substituted two other compounds an enhanced the Anfo much better. Him being the patsy an set up for the fall leaves the real folks still out there. I believe a few will draw pension checks from Uncle.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Hmmm public memorial for 12 hours tomorrow in Uptown Houston. I bet ALL "ABCs" have been put on higher alert now that this story has broken.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Nik H]

If nitro-methane had been added to the mix the out come would have been very different. He tried to obtain it but because he did not know the were as's an wherefores he struck out. China makes it an has a huge quantity, but the import restrictions are many. If he was smart he could have substituted two other compounds an enhanced the Anfo much better. Him being the patsy an set up for the fall leaves the real folks still out there. I believe a few will draw pension checks from Uncle.

I often wonder whether it was really just ANFO versus a derivative. Initiating that much ANFO at one time is not easy. Moreover, the blast didn't really mess up the surrounding buildings as much as it tore the front off the Federal building. It almost look like a shaped charge signature.

 

[crane op]

DUDE, NO SHIT!!! First off, $10k isn't enough money to turn someone in who has that much stolen ordnance, that won't even cover the extra security you're gonna need for ratting the guy out. And $10k? I guess an atom bomb would only have a reward of $1million or so. Don't they get that's MORE than enough demo to carry out a few 9/11's if used properly? I've blown that much at once before and it makes a BIG boom!

I like how the "security" company didn't notice MISSING LOCKS and OPEN DOOR on an explosives storage container for THREE DAYS. That shit should have been checked every hour, on the hour. Should have had a motion operated camera too with an alarm. What a fucking mess.

Yeah, they'll find it eventually. It'll be "Breaking News" on all the propaganda outlets for weeks and I'm sure gun control will get thrown in there with it somehow.

It's what, 2018? This shit is still going on? I think it's a wrap people, this is as good as it gets.

The security people at the yards are not that great from what I have seen. Night time guaranteed they was sleeping

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

It almost look like a shaped charge signature.

Yep, it was shaped via the way the Anfo was triggered. It's my understanding there were timing device fragments found. The odd thing is no one that was supposed to be involved had any of that know how. That plus the fact Mcstupids front plate was missing(knowing he would approch the car from the rear) an a few other oddity's, all smelled to me, back then. I was getting ready to go back to the the embassys in Tbilisi, Georgia & Yerevan, Armiena (CIS) when it happened. The buzz was very different there vs the media here.

 

[Nik H]

Yep, it was shaped via the way the Anfo was triggered. It's my understanding there were timing device fragments found. The odd thing is no one that was supposed to be involved had any of that know how. That plus the fact Mcstupids front plate was missing(knowing he would approch the car from the rear) an a few other oddity's, all smelled to me, back then. I was getting ready to go back to the the embassys in Tbilisi, Georgia & Yerevan, Armiena (CIS) when it happened. The buzz was very different there vs the media here.

Never thought about timing the detonations but I would have no clue how to do that using ANFO. If they were separate charges, I get it. If you have over a ton in the confines of a truck, I would think it would all go off when the first charge went off. How would you guarantee that the remaining detonators would survive the first charge? The only way I could see it is if an elaborate sequencer is used. Something along the lines of detonating a physics package. That technology isn't readily available. It also requires very sophisticated detonators. No home grown explosive can do it that I am aware of.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Never thought about timing the detonations but I would have no clue how to do that using ANFO. If they were separate charges, I get it. If you have over a ton in the confines of a truck, I would think it would all go off when the first charge went off. How would you guarantee that the remaining detonators would survive the first charge? The only way I could see it is if an elaborate sequencer is used. Something along the lines of detonating a physics package. That technology isn't readily available. It also requires very sophisticated detonators. No home grown explosive can do it that I am aware of.

Got me but, 99% of the story being pushed about OKC does not add up. On the farm as a 12yo kid we played with anfo triggered by TNT an while it was not a perfect outcome every time, we did direct the blast more times than not using 2-3 different charges with TV resistors added to the blasting caps an TNT.

 

[Strykervet]

I often wonder whether it was really just ANFO versus a derivative. Initiating that much ANFO at one time is not easy. Moreover, the blast didn't really mess up the surrounding buildings as much as it tore the front off the Federal building. It almost look like a shaped charge signature.

I recall the truck having sand bags on one side to force the explosion in the direction of least resistance. For some reason, I was thinking he did use nitro methane --it's not THAT hard to get if you say it's used for racing fuel.

I do recall him using drums, wanna say they were the blue plastic ones, and the stuff has to be detonated with dynamite and that in turn with a blasting cap but I don't recall the details of that. So it was more like a truck full of barrels, kinda like in "Fight Club".

As for sequencing the detonation, it wouldn't be necessary nor would it do much in this case. The charges were all too close to one another and it would have been wiser, IMO, to wire them all parallel and blow them at once to ensure total detonation of the ANFO.

Physics and timing and then pulling it off in reality are different things, for instance, it's possible on paper to wire a charge such that it will compress sound waves and work like an EMP (I forget where I saw the drawings and such but I think it was when I was studying math). But to my knowledge it's never been done.

 

[Nik H]

I recall the truck having sand bags on one side to force the explosion in the direction of least resistance. For some reason, I was thinking he did use nitro methane --it's not THAT hard to get if you say it's used for racing fuel.

I do recall him using drums, wanna say they were the blue plastic ones, and the stuff has to be detonated with dynamite and that in turn with a blasting cap but I don't recall the details of that. So it was more like a truck full of barrels, kinda like in "Fight Club".

As for sequencing the detonation, it wouldn't be necessary nor would it do much in this case. The charges were all too close to one another and it would have been wiser, IMO, to wire them all parallel and blow them at once to ensure total detonation of the ANFO.

Physics and timing and then pulling it off in reality are different things, for instance, it's possible on paper to wire a charge such that it will compress sound waves and work like an EMP (I forget where I saw the drawings and such but I think it was when I was studying math). But to my knowledge it's never been done.

The sand bags occurred to me as well and it would plausible due to the low detonation velocity of ANFO. Nitromethane is a solvent that is used to manufacture a wide variety of things including explosives but in and of itself it isn't a primary or secondary explosive or at least that I know of. Mixed with fertilizer it is certainly different but then it isn't ANFO but something called ANNM. There was speculation that this is what was really used.

You are correct when you say that the only sure way of detonating ANFO is with dynamite. That is the problem I have with the whole thing. The timing is critical. Think about a detonator setting of dynamite and then ANFO. No problem but sequencing a whole lot of it in separate containers is not easy. Setting it off at once is the only way to ensure a complete detonation. The sandbags would act as a lens.

Agreed with the sequencing which was my point in the prior post.

Physics is a cruel mistress no doubt of that. The sandbag approach also makes sense when you look at the size of the truck and the space required for a ton of ANFO. Plenty of room to build a sandbag wall to direct the blast outward as stated previously. However, it implies a certain amount of knowledge relative to explosives. I don't recall whether McVeigh had formal training or had help or just got lucky (sarcasm intended).

 

[fdkay]

from a timeline of events:
October 3, 1994McVeigh burglarizes a quarry near Marion, Kansas, and steals dynamite and blasting caps.
He and Nichols drive to Arizona, where they stay for two weeks.
October 18, 1994McVeigh and Nichols buy a second ton of ammonium nitrate in McPherson, Kansas.
October 20, 1994McVeigh and Nichols drive by the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. They get out of their car, and time the distance to a place McVeigh would be at the time the bomb would go off.
October 21, 1994Wearing a biker disguise, McVeigh purchases nearly $3,000 worth of nitromethane, a racing fuel used in bomb construction, from a Dallas, Texas track. After purchasing the fuel, they travel to Kingman, where McVeigh and Fortier test the explosives mixture.

 

[Nik H]

That may be the published timeline but I don't buy it. ANNM is significantly more dangerous to handle than ANFO. It is much more shock sensitive. You dont just luck into the right mix of one to the other. Put to much NM into the AN and you will have a bad day.

ANFO, on the other hand, is totally shock insensitive. That is why it is classified as a tertiary explosive. It needs a detonator and a secondary (dynamite) to get it going. That is why it is still widely used for industrial applications.

ANNM is easier to detonate but much harder to transport.

I don't believe much of what was released about the whole incident

 

[Sean the Nailer]

The recipe, and how closely it is held to, was the key. Some understand.

 

[Foul Mike]

This may well be from within the company involved but none the less a nice haul for someone.
I hope they find this shit muy pronto, post haste and the sooner the better. I hope it is not just "gone."
Some here on this site BTDT and understand that the caps are the big thing here as well as the explosives involved.
I do wish that ALL of the Authorities involved would be more out in the open with what is going on.
Were it me I would have it on National TV with any information I had.
I also wonder what exactly they stole, dynamite, TNT, C4? or what? I have seen all of the above mentioned by "reporters?" who, probably none know the difference, they just report. FM