- Thread starter jb1000br
- Start date
Liberty Optics notified me that mine shipped this morning.
Well guys, I got my Gen III today and I’ve been playing with it all afternoon. I do like a lot of things about this scope and there are some definite upgrades from the Gen II, but there is also something I really don’t like and it has not been mentioned in any of the reviews that have been posted so far. Either people don't want to say anything bad about this scope in public, or I have the only one with problems (hopefully the latter).
First off the good things:
The glass is better than the Gen II. The main reason I wanted to try this new Razor is that I have been wanting a upgrade on glass quality. The Gen II is good, but I just wanted something on the “next level” and I’m happy to say that the Gen III's glass is what I have been looking for. The Field of View is awesome and makes it easier to shoot when zoomed in on high magnification. I did some shooting on 36x and was surprised how easy it was to still find targets. I thought it would be harder than it is. Though to be fair, there really isn’t much difference between 27x and 36x. I’m not sure why people get so hung up on the ultra high zoom scopes. I will still be doing most of my shooting between 12-18x. With that said, the glass clarity on 36x is really impressive. I thought it would get blurry when maxed out but it doesn’t. I was able to see details on the targets that I couldn't see as well with the Gen II. The new glass is a big win in my opinion. I haven't tested it in low-light conditions yet, but I have no doubt it will perform better than the Gen II.
The eye box on this scope also seems very forgiving, which is awesome because I have seen other scopes that aren’t very forgiving at all. This is nice when another shooter wants to try out your rifle or take a look through your scope. It also makes it easy to get a good picture when shooting weak-side or from an awkward position.
Another nice improvement is the reticle. Having spent some time looking through it today I really like the reticle. The .2mil marks feel much more precise than the old EBR7C reticle that only had .5mil marks. I love the fact that this reticle still has the .5mil marks along the bottom of the horizontal crosshair with the more precise .2mil marks above the crosshair. This makes it very easy to quickly and precisely find your wind hold point. It’s my new favorite reticle. However, they should have used this same design on the vertical crosshair. For some reason they only did .2mil increments on the vertical and they are all identical
, which is bad when you’re in a hurry. When stressed and running out of time on a stage you’ll find yourself counting the .2mil marks to get to the right one. If they had also included the .5mil mark like they did on the horizontal crosshair it would be a near-perfect reticle. But overall, it’s still an upgrade from the EBR7C.
Another nice upgrade is the zoom ring. It is noticeably lighter than the Gen II, which is awesome. You don’t have to apply near as much force on this one.
The last pro I want to mention is the zero stop. It is definitely simpler than the old version that had 3 set screws and a cap on each turret. It was very quick and easy to adjust my zero and it also allows for very precise adjustments. I am one of the ones that was hoping for a toolless zero-stop, so I was a little disappointed, but overall I still like this new style. (Side-note: Burris just released their new scope with toolless zero).
I do worry a little what will happen to the turrets in rain and freezing temperatures since the top of the turret is essentially a bowl. If water gets in the turret and freezes it could potentially break some stuff as the freezing water expands. However, I assume Vortex took that all into consideration when they designed this, so hopefully there won’t be any issues there.
I know this will piss some of you off, but I have always like the "Stealth Shadow" color they use on Razor line of scopes. I prefer this color much more than black, since every other scope on the planet is black. But I'm also one of those people that loves to see the bright colored paint jobs on range rifles. Black is just too plain and boring. Just my opinion, don't get angry...
Now…. On to the big negative…
In MY OPINION (you may completely disagree with me) these turrets are a significant downgrade from the Gen II. Yes, you read that right. Now before everybody gets angry and starts threatening me, it is possible that I am just unlucky and got a problem scope. Unfortunately I haven’t got my hands on any other Gen IIIs yet to compare them to mine.
The turrets are VERY stiff. They do still have good clicks and index satisfactorily, but they require a lot more force to turn than the Gen II turrets did. Turning these with gloves on is surprisingly difficult. Also, they downgraded the knurling on the turrets as well. The Gen II knurling is “grippier.” I had several people play with the Gen III’s turrets for a while and then handed them my Gen II as a comparison and they all said “wow, the Gen II turrets are way better.” So it’s not just me that noticed this. Again, maybe it’s just this one scope that has a problem, but I’m skeptical. The clicks on the Gen II are also more defined.
I have seen many people complain about locking elevation turrets before, saying that they accidentally lock while turning them. I had never experienced that problem before, so I didn’t mind having locking turrets on the Gen II. HOWEVER, the very first time I played with the Gen III turrets I had it lock on me while I was dialing. Thinking it was just a one time thing, I tried it again and again and was disappointed to have the accidental-lock syndrome occur several times. I have to consciously avoid putting any downward pressure on the turret while I adjust it or else it eventually locks down again. I did find a band-aid solution by printing an “anti-lock” ring that fits under the turret to keep it from locking, but I shouldn’t have to do that on a scope at this price point.
I do love that this new parallax goes down to 10 yards. That will be awesome for 22 matches. Also, the parallax seems more forgiving than the Gen II which is another upgrade. (Guess i should have put that in the pros section above). BUT again, this adjustment is also much stiffer than the one on the Gen II. It takes quite a bit more force to turn.
Overall, there are a lot of upgrades on the Gen III that would definitely justify the $3000 price tag if the turrets were better. They could have literally reused the exact same turrets from the Gen II and it would be worth the increased price tag. I am hoping that mine is the only one with the stiff turrets problem. That would mean it could be fixed potentially.
As it stands, I am very disappointed in the turrets, but I really love everything else about this scope. The glass clarity, field of view, EBR7D reticle, zoom range, zoom ring tension, elevation travel, eye box, parallax range & forgiveness and even the color are all on point and exactly what I was hoping for. Unfortunately the turret problem is a pretty major issue in my opinion. Also, it would be nice if they would include a pair of Defender Flip Caps with this scope, but maybe I'm asking for too much...
Anyways, I hope this gives you all some insight into what to expect on the Gen III. These are just my opinions and yours may be completely different. If any of you have first-hand experience with these new turrets I’d love to hear what you all think about them and if yours also have super stiff turrets and the accidental-lock syndrome. Let me know how you like them compared to the Gen II turrets.
First off the good things:
The glass is better than the Gen II. The main reason I wanted to try this new Razor is that I have been wanting a upgrade on glass quality. The Gen II is good, but I just wanted something on the “next level” and I’m happy to say that the Gen III's glass is what I have been looking for. The Field of View is awesome and makes it easier to shoot when zoomed in on high magnification. I did some shooting on 36x and was surprised how easy it was to still find targets. I thought it would be harder than it is. Though to be fair, there really isn’t much difference between 27x and 36x. I’m not sure why people get so hung up on the ultra high zoom scopes. I will still be doing most of my shooting between 12-18x. With that said, the glass clarity on 36x is really impressive. I thought it would get blurry when maxed out but it doesn’t. I was able to see details on the targets that I couldn't see as well with the Gen II. The new glass is a big win in my opinion. I haven't tested it in low-light conditions yet, but I have no doubt it will perform better than the Gen II.
The eye box on this scope also seems very forgiving, which is awesome because I have seen other scopes that aren’t very forgiving at all. This is nice when another shooter wants to try out your rifle or take a look through your scope. It also makes it easy to get a good picture when shooting weak-side or from an awkward position.
Another nice improvement is the reticle. Having spent some time looking through it today I really like the reticle. The .2mil marks feel much more precise than the old EBR7C reticle that only had .5mil marks. I love the fact that this reticle still has the .5mil marks along the bottom of the horizontal crosshair with the more precise .2mil marks above the crosshair. This makes it very easy to quickly and precisely find your wind hold point. It’s my new favorite reticle. However, they should have used this same design on the vertical crosshair. For some reason they only did .2mil increments on the vertical and they are all identical
, which is bad when you’re in a hurry. When stressed and running out of time on a stage you’ll find yourself counting the .2mil marks to get to the right one. If they had also included the .5mil mark like they did on the horizontal crosshair it would be a near-perfect reticle. But overall, it’s still an upgrade from the EBR7C.Another nice upgrade is the zoom ring. It is noticeably lighter than the Gen II, which is awesome. You don’t have to apply near as much force on this one.
The last pro I want to mention is the zero stop. It is definitely simpler than the old version that had 3 set screws and a cap on each turret. It was very quick and easy to adjust my zero and it also allows for very precise adjustments. I am one of the ones that was hoping for a toolless zero-stop, so I was a little disappointed, but overall I still like this new style. (Side-note: Burris just released their new scope with toolless zero).
I do worry a little what will happen to the turrets in rain and freezing temperatures since the top of the turret is essentially a bowl. If water gets in the turret and freezes it could potentially break some stuff as the freezing water expands. However, I assume Vortex took that all into consideration when they designed this, so hopefully there won’t be any issues there.
I know this will piss some of you off, but I have always like the "Stealth Shadow" color they use on Razor line of scopes. I prefer this color much more than black, since every other scope on the planet is black. But I'm also one of those people that loves to see the bright colored paint jobs on range rifles. Black is just too plain and boring. Just my opinion, don't get angry...
Now…. On to the big negative…
In MY OPINION (you may completely disagree with me) these turrets are a significant downgrade from the Gen II. Yes, you read that right. Now before everybody gets angry and starts threatening me, it is possible that I am just unlucky and got a problem scope. Unfortunately I haven’t got my hands on any other Gen IIIs yet to compare them to mine.
The turrets are VERY stiff. They do still have good clicks and index satisfactorily, but they require a lot more force to turn than the Gen II turrets did. Turning these with gloves on is surprisingly difficult. Also, they downgraded the knurling on the turrets as well. The Gen II knurling is “grippier.” I had several people play with the Gen III’s turrets for a while and then handed them my Gen II as a comparison and they all said “wow, the Gen II turrets are way better.” So it’s not just me that noticed this. Again, maybe it’s just this one scope that has a problem, but I’m skeptical. The clicks on the Gen II are also more defined.
I have seen many people complain about locking elevation turrets before, saying that they accidentally lock while turning them. I had never experienced that problem before, so I didn’t mind having locking turrets on the Gen II. HOWEVER, the very first time I played with the Gen III turrets I had it lock on me while I was dialing. Thinking it was just a one time thing, I tried it again and again and was disappointed to have the accidental-lock syndrome occur several times. I have to consciously avoid putting any downward pressure on the turret while I adjust it or else it eventually locks down again. I did find a band-aid solution by printing an “anti-lock” ring that fits under the turret to keep it from locking, but I shouldn’t have to do that on a scope at this price point.
I do love that this new parallax goes down to 10 yards. That will be awesome for 22 matches. Also, the parallax seems more forgiving than the Gen II which is another upgrade. (Guess i should have put that in the pros section above). BUT again, this adjustment is also much stiffer than the one on the Gen II. It takes quite a bit more force to turn.
Overall, there are a lot of upgrades on the Gen III that would definitely justify the $3000 price tag if the turrets were better. They could have literally reused the exact same turrets from the Gen II and it would be worth the increased price tag. I am hoping that mine is the only one with the stiff turrets problem. That would mean it could be fixed potentially.
As it stands, I am very disappointed in the turrets, but I really love everything else about this scope. The glass clarity, field of view, EBR7D reticle, zoom range, zoom ring tension, elevation travel, eye box, parallax range & forgiveness and even the color are all on point and exactly what I was hoping for. Unfortunately the turret problem is a pretty major issue in my opinion. Also, it would be nice if they would include a pair of Defender Flip Caps with this scope, but maybe I'm asking for too much...
Anyways, I hope this gives you all some insight into what to expect on the Gen III. These are just my opinions and yours may be completely different. If any of you have first-hand experience with these new turrets I’d love to hear what you all think about them and if yours also have super stiff turrets and the accidental-lock syndrome. Let me know how you like them compared to the Gen II turrets.
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I did make a comment about the turrets above. Mine are stiff, more so than many scopes but not so much that I can’t turn them in a pinch. My bigger complaint is the tactile feel of the clicks, in fact hearing the clicks in the Area419 video makes me wonder if some grease monkey slathered way too much grease in there, if so this is something that should loosen up over time. EDIT: Already they seem to be doing better after working them in some, I'm going to give them more time for break in and see if they don't settle in.
Hopefully @Scott_at_Vortex can investigate a bit and maybe come up with a DIY method that might help loosen these up. But again, I think it’s something that might work itself out over time, that or you and I have a couple that need some TLC through Vortex’s VIP.
I’m right there with you
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Glad to hear I’m not the only one (although that does suck that other people have this problem too). I do hope they will loosen up with time. I have been turning the turrets and parallax like crazy hoping that it will spread out the grease and “break-in” the turrets so that they aren’t so stiff, but I haven’t noticed a change so far. I’ll keep playing with it and put it through its paces at a small regional match this weekend.
probably good ELR scope, not so good for PRS/NRL...
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Got one.
I haven't received my tracking # yet?
Edit: and 2 min later it appears
Same here.
@Glassaholic @ricksmunn As with anything Vortex related, if you aren't happy we aren't happy. Give us a call or message me. Although, calling 800-486-7839 would be better this coming week as I will be in Vegas at SHOT. We will do everything in our power to make you happy.
If you do call today or next week and decide to send it in please let our team know that I would like to see it before anything is serviced.
It's Hard for me to say, as I dont know what your preference is, but it shouldn't be a problem to adjust these to your liking. Unfortunately the turrets are not user serviceable.
Best Regards
Scott
Thank you Scott, I was just playing with the turrets, spinning them a lot back and forth today, they seem to be "breaking in" as the feel has improved and so has the tactile "click" response. They are also not as stiff as day one, so I'm going to keep working them. As always it is encouraging that your team is on top of it and willing to look, but I always try to give new scopes a break in period to work certain things out so will keep at it.
When I bought my Strike Eagle last year when they came out. The turrets on that felt kind of meh on that. After working them up and down a bunch of times they felt fine. Hopefully these will be the same.
Not gonna lie, I'm kinda interested. I'd have to look through one myself first, but if it's seriously clear and bright, maybe.
I’ll have to send it back to have Scott and the others at Vortex take a look at it. The turrets on mine aren’t getting any better even after playing with them a bunch and I’m pretty sure the locking turrets have an issue as well. If the turrets get fixed, this will be one of the best scopes on the market around this price point.
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Mine will be here Tuesday... looking at some videos online, I'm wondering if there is just no detent and that is by design?
Looking at the two side by side you can obviously see where they removed the machined "ring" in the Gen III's knob ridges. I always thought that ring helped you grip it.
It appears the detent the Gen II has is not present on the Gen III.
Also, why are the turrets so much taller on the Gen III vs the Gen II's?
It appears the detent the Gen II has is not present on the Gen III.
Also, why are the turrets so much taller on the Gen III vs the Gen II's?
Yes you are correct. The Gen II turrets have better grip than the new ones, which is unfortunate since the new ones are stiffer and would benefit from grippier knurling.
A byproduct of more internal range / adjustment? I know zero about the inner workings of scopes BTW, just a guess on my part.
One complaint… how come a scope of that caliber/price can’t come with better scope caps and cover. Atleast give me tenebraex caps and a scope coat xp6 cover like a lot do. Even trijicon does exactly that. The vortex defender caps have to be the worst caps on earth. I’m still contemplating picking one up as My pricing is pretty descent. But dang… ditch those horribly designed caps vortex.
Noticed the same on my turrets. Have to keep pulling up to keep from locking.
Love everything about this scope except the turrets.
So there is nothing keeping the turret up when you unlock it? Like you find it sliding back down?
Hopefully it’s not a widespread issue. Part of the reason I’m partial to non locking turrets. But we’ll see Tuesday!
I wonder if a guy can somehow make them permanently unlocked. The locking elevation was my only gripe on ZCO.
Not pretty but a 2mm zip tie will work until Vortex or someone comes up with more elegant solution
I use on o-ring on my ZCO to make it non locking. I have a gen3 coming and might have to do the same.
I'll have my gen3 in hand Tuesday, first match of season Saturday. Let me know if you find an o ring hack. I'm gonna run the piss put the turrets prior to the match. Seems like that's the biggest complaint so far, stiff and not as tactile as gen2, but betters with use. Ive been running a Minox zp5, with stiff turrets so I may notice no difference. Minox turrets are rather blah for an alpha glass optic.
I 3d printed a ring that fits under the turret and prevents it from being able to lock. Unfortunately it’s really thin and flimsy so it probably won’t last long, but it does make it so you don’t have to worry about accidentally locking the turret.
I spent some more time with it today at the range and I love the glass and reticle in this, but I’m going to have to send it back to have the turrets looked at. They were really bad with gloves on in cold weather.
We had a practice day at the range today and had a pretty nice lineup of scopes to compare side by side. The Gen III definitely wasn’t the best of the best considering the price point of the others, but it really was very impressive and has taken a step into the realm of the alpha glass. It’s pretty close to some very nice scopes! They definitely improved a lot from the Gen II. The Gen III had the best field of view and had the best reticle in my opinion. But when the turrets were compared between all the scopes, unfortunately the Gen III’s were at the bottom of the pack.
As I said before, there’s a lot I really like about the Gen III, but I need to get the turrets looked at for sure.
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So the ZCO had better glass and the Gen3 was tie to that 7-35 atacr? That's what I'm hoping for!
O-ring hack seems to work well and you wouldn't noticed it unless you looked hard for it.
Tried square o-ring as well as normal o-ring and both worked well. Square o-ring less likely to get pushed out I think so left it in.
Used AS568-028 SN70 (NBR) Buna-N 70 Duro Square O-Ring (SN70028) from O-ring store because it is what I had.
Going to order some slightly larger o-rings which I think will fit a little better.
Great info! Good luck finding that in my podunk town but I'll try!
The ZCO, Kahles and Nightforce all had better glass, but the Gen III was pretty close to them. The general consensus among the group was that the new Kahles DLR was the best all around in the lineup. It has really nice turrets!
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Kahles over ZCO? Maybe the new DLR rectified what the k525i couldn’t but having owned it and the k318i there were short comings for $3300 glass. Don’t get me wrong nothing is perfect but the FOV wasn’t all to great on the old k525i (i know the DLR has remedied this), CA while reduced was still apparent, DOF was incredibly shallow compared to other tier 1 offerings, and beyond 23x there was a noticeable drop in resolution. I'll say Kahles has always had my favorite turrets but I found the k525i lacking in almost every other aspect considering it's price. Interesting none the less.
Well F that's not what I wanted to hear! Ive been around a lot of Kahles and found everything on the outside the scope i loved, inside not so much. I know the atacr 7-35 is quite close to ZCO/THETA/Minox in IQ. Welp......have mine soon. Maybe it'll be better, my expectations are pretty low now.
The ZCO seemed to have the best resolution, but the color on the Kahles and NF were a little better. In the end it all comes down to personal preference. So the Kahles may not be the best for everyone. But averaging the comments and opinions of the group, the Kahles seemed to be the favorite. Someone in the group pointed out that the ZCO had some blueing around the edges if you move your head around a little. Don’t get me wrong, they were all awesome. But none of them had the best of everything. The Kahles was really nice all around with all things considered. The new DLR turret is amazing!
I think it needs to be reiterated, but wait to see it with your eyes. Everyone's are different. Which is the prime example you and I just hit on. To Rick and his group they all really liked the Kahles. You and I had haven't liked them so much. Well not to say don't like them. I just had higher expectations than what the K525i delivered. Especially when you consider the glass Swaro puts out it makes it hard not to judge the K525i and look back at Kahles and just give them a weird look lol. My point being it could not live up to your expectations and it could be beyond them, but don't create regret for a problem that doesn't exist yet.
Yeah I'm not saying otherwise. As noted above we all see things different. I'm just surprised is all. But it also goes without saying that sample variance is a real thing in optics. I've owned one ATACR and been behind 3 others for considerable time. One of those four didn't compare to the old USO SN-3 I was running at the time. Just like my K525i was lacking, there might be others that weren't. Though I sent mine to ILya and he kinda thought the same, so I assume mine universally underperformed lol. All in all it's nice to have the choices.
Agreed, if they put swaro X5 glass in a K624i/K525i It'd be all the scope I'd ever ask for! I'm not in regret, like to try new stuff. But your absolutely correct, all eyes are different, with different renderings of the image at hand. I do not see much CA, and the DOF on the k624 as forgiving as it is, still has me running several of em, even though Athlon cronus/ares glass equals or betters it.
Agreed. Shootist406 Don’t get your hopes down just yet. Wait till you get your Gen III and see how you like it. It may be your favorite scope. I am really impressed with the glass on mine, I just think some of the others have a bit of an edge in the glass department, which is to be expected. The Gen III is the cheapest of those scopes (except the Burris and Athlon, but I wasn’t really including them in this).
my new Minox (2019) had amazing turrets, much better than my old Minox (2015), so I sent my older ZP5 back to Germany for a turret upgrade and it came back right as rain. It went from being meh to liking it better than Kahles and ZCO, only thing better was TT, but now Schmidt’s new DTII+ and March’s new locking turret are banging on TT’s door IMO. That being said, turret feel is very much subjective as is glass quality in many ways.
Just out of curiosity, was everyone adjusting the diopter to their eyes before evaluating each scope? When I shoot with friends and we look through each other’s scopes I almost always have to adjust diopter to fine tune and they mine. All our eyes are different and sometimes even what may seem to be slight adjustments can make a difference. I can’t emphasize enough that a poorly set diopter can turn an alpha class optic into meh, yes this has even happened with TT.
Absolutely a must do. Good freaking points.
They were all played with a little, but they weren’t fully tuned to each specific person. You are absolutely right, a poorly set diopter can cause issues. I wouldn’t use my opinion as the “end-all” answer on which scope is best. I just thought I would share our opinions on what we saw. Each person may have a completely different opinion. My favorite may be someone else’s least favorite and so on. I’d say all of these are great. Just go with whichever has your favorite features.
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