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Weird issues with AR10 build

King_beardsly

MMPRL & Low Dollar Precision
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jun 12, 2018
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    Beast Coast
    So I built up a AR10 a while ago, it got put on the back burner but it’s finally together and functioning (sorta). It’ll run great with PMC bronze, feeds/ejects like a champ, but the second I tried GMM 168’s it had FTE issues. Now I know building an 308 isn’t like a 556 due to something’s don’t like to play nice together but you’d think the issue would be across the board.

    The build is Aero M5 upper/lower build by them, falkor defense barrel (16” with rifle length gas system) and the bcg came from peacegeek so it’s a mystery who’s product it is. The longer gas system might be the issue, but in theory a 308 should have more then enough gas to run that system without any problem.
     
    How many rounds fired through it ? ... could it be a matter of a little more break in ?

    And FTE ... as in failure to extract ? or failure to eject ?
     
    Try to take slomo of the gun cycling, should show you what goes wrong.
     
    Adjustable gas block? Where is PMC ejecting - relative to you. Could also be the buffer spring. Try using search for under over gassed AR, lots of stuff already posted on this with pictures.
     
    So I built up a AR10 a while ago, it got put on the back burner but it’s finally together and functioning (sorta). It’ll run great with PMC bronze, feeds/ejects like a champ, but the second I tried GMM 168’s it had FTE issues. Now I know building an 308 isn’t like a 556 due to something’s don’t like to play nice together but you’d think the issue would be across the board.

    The build is Aero M5 upper/lower build by them, falkor defense barrel (16” with rifle length gas system) and the bcg came from peacegeek so it’s a mystery who’s product it is. The longer gas system might be the issue, but in theory a 308 should have more then enough gas to run that system without any problem.

    Are you running an adjustable gas block?

    How's the ejection with the pmc?

    Have any of the fgmm rounds ejected, if so how is it?

    Is there any significant leaking around the gas block? With that dwell length it could be a gas efficiency problem if the block, gas tube and bcg are a little sloppy on tolerances. 16" rifle is a short dwell length set up and if your system isn't efficient you could have reliability issues. Tbh I'm not sure about AR10's but unless you have a pretty large gas port most AR15's with that short dwell length are built as a suppressor host. So lets just say there isn't a gas efficiency problem, without seeing your set up you might need to open the port just a bit or go with a lighter bolt carrier or buffer.

    Do you have any lighter weight buffers?

    Do you know anyone else that has an ar10 you can try a different bcg?

    Can or have you tried it suppresed?
     
    Aside from all else that’s been mentioned, the FGMM may be jamming in your chamber causing the case to swell significantly. I’ve got a couple boxes in the closet that won’t even chamber in my gun. (Granted bolt action but still.) Crazy theory but if it’s running PMC okay there may be a different variable here.

    However that does seem to be a bit long for the gas system. With a standard buffer weight I’d still expect it to run though. I always ran H2s on both an 18” with rifle gas and 16” with mid gas. That’s in conjunction with the gas being turned down.

    Second or third running a standard buffer weight if you aren’t already.

    Just for fun I’d verify headspace if you haven’t.
     
    everyone warned me about the money pit and frustration building an ar10, but of course I didn’t listen
     
    I’m in the same boat.
    Barrel was filthy after only 4 shots and caused massive issues.
     
    I had the same issue with my Aero build. Long story short, I tried to swap parts but I ended up changing the bolt out and it fixed everything.
     
    I had the same issue with my Aero build. Long story short, I tried to swap parts but I ended up changing the bolt out and it fixed everything.
    I wish I knew who made my bolt, it came from peacegeek which is the site zrodelta built to blow out all the leftovers from war sports after they bought them.
     
    All of your issues are due to part selection, buying an unname unknown BCG is never a good idea.

    Picking a 16" .308 barrel with rifle length gas leaves you no room for error due to the dwell time restrictions that rifle length gas system puts on a 16" barrel.

    Building large frame AR's isn't complicated as long as you do your homework beforehand and have at least basic knowledge of how they work.
     
    All of your issues are due to part selection, buying an unname unknown BCG is never a good idea.

    Picking a 16" .308 barrel with rifle length gas leaves you no room for error due to the dwell time restrictions that rifle length gas system puts on a 16" barrel.

    Building large frame AR's isn't complicated as long as you do your homework beforehand and have at least basic knowledge of how they work.
    Mine was a complete factory Aero upper with 18" barrel and Aero bcg.
     
    All of your issues are due to part selection, buying an unname unknown BCG is never a good idea.

    Picking a 16" .308 barrel with rifle length gas leaves you no room for error due to the dwell time restrictions that rifle length gas system puts on a 16" barrel.

    Building large frame AR's isn't complicated as long as you do your homework beforehand and have at least basic knowledge of how they work.
    bj83 saw the rattlesnake, line #2.
     
    This is why SCARs, LMT, KAC, HK and other quality factory .308s cost what they do…

    You might have to open up that gas port on the barrel just a tad…any idea what it is?

    Have you checked headspace?

    Gas leaks anywhere?
     
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    All of your issues are due to part selection, buying an unname unknown BCG is never a good idea.

    Picking a 16" .308 barrel with rifle length gas leaves you no room for error due to the dwell time restrictions that rifle length gas system puts on a 16" barrel.

    Building large frame AR's isn't complicated as long as you do your homework beforehand and have at least basic knowledge of how they work.
    I’ve built quite a few small frame AR’s without any issues. The parts are a little bit of a mishmash but good quality parts. I know the barrel is sorta an odd ball with the gas system set up but should work across the board.

     
    This is why SCARs, LMT, KAC, HK and other quality factory .308s cost what they do…

    You might have to open up that gas port on the barrel just a tad…any idea what it is?

    Have you checked headspace?

    Gas leaks anywhere?
    This is what I get for attempting to save some money, I will now need to spend more money and time tracking down issues
     
    This is why SCARs, LMT, KAC, HK and other quality factory .308s cost what they do…

    You might have to open up that gas port on the barrel just a tad…any idea what it is?

    Have you checked headspace?

    Gas leaks anywhere?
    Yes!! Shorter Barrel + Longer gas = Larger Gas Port
     
    Yeah the AR10 is a balance. Not many can achieve reliability and accuracy at the same time…that said. You can still build a solid AR10 on your own but it’s just a bit more tedious.
     
    If it holds MOA or around that I’ll be happy, if it’s better even better but it’s a 16” 308 I’m not expecting boltgun accuracy. I just want it to run reliably
     
    Yes!! Shorter Barrel + Longer gas = Larger Gas Port
    So I looked at the gas port and it’s definitely not under sized, if anything it looks huge.


    F1438623-C74B-43A9-BB2C-6283392503FC.jpeg
     
    That it is, now I’m wondering if it’s an over gas issue. I’ve only been shooting it indoors, so it’s hard to see what the actual ejection pattern and no one wants to be near me with this indoors.
     
    That hole might be your issue...that is giagantor of a hole...

    I would HIGHLY recommend superlative adjustable gas block...love that setup...it can also bleed off if you want...
     
    Should have checked that before I put it back together, but it’s easy enough to pull back apart. I might need to look into one of those, I’ll have to check brass next time I shoot to see if it’s trying to rip the rim off.
     
    That it is, now I’m wondering if it’s an over gas issue. I’ve only been shooting it indoors, so it’s hard to see what the actual ejection pattern and no one wants to be near me with this indoors.

    You could try different buffer weights but if it's over gassed an adjustable gas block would be best. I would recommend the slr or superlative arms agb. Short dwell lengths generally have pretty large ports. iirc faxon in their 11.5 mid length gas uses like a .115 port just in case someone wants to run (what is essentially designed as a dedicated suppressor host) unsuppressed.

    Ejection should give you an idea what is going on.

    When it fte is it easy to manually cycle?
     
    I measured the port and it between .14 and .15 using Allen keys to measure, so it might be a wee bit over gas
     
    Last edited:
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    The gas port is at least 50% larger than typical as indicted in the attached image. note this is a guide but I have found it be useful
    98C93887-0553-4A73-AD01-BA3563D201FF.png

    When you say failure to to eject, I'm assuming The case gets stuck in the receiver and Is doubling feeding. You will very likely need an adjustable gas block as as other have suggested . But It could be the bolt somehow not correctly grabbing the fired case and ejecting.

    This Is counter intuitive but I experienced a similar problem with a AR308 build when using a no name BCG. I tried everything else but ultimately replaced with a KAK BCG and worked much much better
    But then I still had over gassing and needed a AGB



    you might get by with just a new bolt but AR10 bolt carriers and firing pins are not interchangeable which does suck

    Of course try more lube and more rounds to ensure it's not just a break-in type issue
    Good luck
     
    The gas port is at least 50% larger than typical as indicted in the attached image. note this is a guide but I have found it be useful View attachment 7683697
    When you say failure to to eject, I'm assuming The case gets stuck in the receiver and Is doubling feeding. You will very likely need an adjustable gas block as as other have suggested . But It could be the bolt somehow not correctly grabbing the fired case and ejecting.

    This Is counter intuitive but I experienced a similar problem with a AR308 build when using a no name BCG. I tried everything else but ultimately replaced with a KAK BCG and worked much much better
    But then I still had over gassing and needed a AGB



    you might get by with just a new bolt but AR10 bolt carriers and firing pins are not interchangeable which does suck

    Of course try more lube and more rounds to ensure it's not just a break-in type issue
    Good luck
    I’ve got an adjustable block coming this week, so I’m going to try that and the bolt seems to be spot on. I still want the lantac bcg, but refuse to pay the price for it.
     
    I’ve got an adjustable block coming this week, so I’m going to try that and the bolt seems to be spot on. I still want the lantac bcg, but refuse to pay the price for it.

    I have a new lantac .308 BCG in the black DLC, if you're interested shoot me a PM
     
    I’ve got an adjustable block coming this week, so I’m going to try that and the bolt seems to be spot on. I still want the lantac bcg, but refuse to pay the price for it.
    A couple of relevant laws on spending/saving money:



    Law #1: With complex systems, saving money is rarely saving money.

    Law #2: You don't always get what you paid for, but you rarely get what you don't pay for.




    Take this into consideration: How much more than your current cheap BCG would the BCG you want cost? How much will the ammo/travel/time you burn up trying to sort out your cheap BCG cost you? Which number is higher?
     
    Just something to consider:

    I built an AR10 in 260rem a few years ago on AP platform with a proof barrel. The BCG was made by JP (you know, the one everyone drools over), and I was having extraction issues. Turns out, a JP rep was at a local match and looked at the BCG. He said there was a burr inside the carrier that was causing the bolt to stick.

    JP sent me a new carrier in exchange for my old one. Might be worth looking at.
     
    I’ve got an adjustable block coming this week, so I’m going to try that and the bolt seems to be spot on. I still want the lantac bcg, but refuse to pay the price for it.
    When I found out my bolt was at fault for improper headspace on 2 different barrels, I bought the Lantac-just the bolt-and the headspace problem vanished. Worked fine with my PSA carrier. The only mod I did was remove the ejector and round off the edges. I recommend Lantac as GTG.
     
    What weight projectiles?

    Lighter weight projectiles typically allows for higher system pressures at gas port.

    If you're shooting 150s vs 168GMM, you might just not have enough poop with that short of a dwell before uncorking.

    If so, loose some weight in the BCG+buffer world, or--my preference--lighten spring rate.
     
    What weight projectiles?

    Lighter weight projectiles typically allows for higher system pressures at gas port.

    If you're shooting 150s vs 168GMM, you might just not have enough poop with that short of a dwell before uncorking.

    If so, loose some weight in the BCG+buffer world, or--my preference--lighten spring rate.
    It’s got a huge gas port, so I don’t know if that’s the issue. I ordered an adjustable gas block since it seems we might be completely over gassed.
     
    It’s got a huge gas port, so I don’t know if that’s the issue. I ordered an adjustable gas block since it seems we might be completely over gassed.
    You might be over-gassed.

    My only experience with PMC Bronze were chambered in 223. I found it to be a low pressure loading with lots of velocity variation over the chrono.

    If that is the case in their 308 offering, you might be running a light projectile with low pressure gas. In an over-gassed system, the round might be sufficiently under-gassed to balance everything else out.
    --

    That said, my thinking is this:

    (1) "Huge gas port" is relative, specifically to dwell time.

    Your 16" rifle gas system has a large port and a short dwell. Presumably, these things are developed in conjunction through testing, to
    allow larger quantities of gas to be pushed into the action in a shorter amount of time to provide adequate energy for extraction. (Could have been developed for a specialized purpose (heavy metal competition, dedicated suppressed system).)

    (2) Loads are developed to stay below a certain peak pressure (for all the reasons we can't exceed certain peak pressures in a rifle) rough various means (from quantitative testing through wild-ass-guessing).

    All other things being equal, lighter projectiles can have more powder behind them. Less mass = faster acceleration = increased volume earlier in the burn = lower peak pressure.

    This results in a higher energy system, with more gas pressure at the port.

    (3) For gassers, the net energy required by reciprocating system for positive extraction is influenced by the degree of brass contraction.

    FTEs are the result of inadequate energy applied to the reciprocating system.

    If extraction is started before the brass has contracted, you need more energy to overcome chamber drag.

    The longer the distance between your chamber and your gas port, the more time the brass has had to contract.

    If you were running a shorter gas system, chamber drag would definitely be higher on my list of likely culprits.

    Running rifle gas system gives brass more time to contract of the walls of the chamber before the extraction process is started.

    Running a rifle length gas system in a 16" means the dwell time (gas port to uncorking distance) is (relatively speaking) short.

    On paper, these elements point to an under-energized system.

    My bias is to reduce spring rate when troubleshooting under-energized systems (my original comment), as I prefer slower cyclic rate systems.

    If the adjustable gas block doesn't work, maybe look to reducing spring rate or lightening the reciprocating system.

    Good luck.
     
    So I did a little function testing today and even with the gas block essentially closed all the way down it’s still got enough gas to run the whole system. It seemed a little less violent with case extraction and would actually run a full mag of ammo. I still need to test it with the GMM since I couldn’t find any this morning when I was running out the door.
     
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    Before swapping out the big $ parts, try this:

    heavy buffer
    New carbine spring
    Gas rings on bolt

    i had a very similar issue. Turned out the spring was the issue as well as the gas rings on the bolt.
     
    I’ll have to track down a heavier buffer and spring, both are whatever aero used with their complete M5 lowers. I guess even with the gas block essentially shut down, they large gas port delivers more then enough to run the whole system.
     
    Mine presented the same issues…. Had me questioning the same about gas…

    had a buddy tell me the above. Swapped it all out and fired 80 rnds like a sewing machine.
    This was after 5 range trips and me pirchasing a brand new high end BCG that never fixed the issue.
    Turned about about $75 fixed it all.
     
    I struggled with my .308 build for a year. I learned a lot over that year. The biggest lesson was, don’t go cheap. Get a high end adjustable gas block. I found SLRs work the best. The JPs were trash for me (not saying JP is trash, just didn’t work well in my setup). Try a new BCG too. From a reputable company.

    Make sure the gas block is PROPERLY ALIGNED. Closely aligned is not acceptable on a .308 AR. Invest in alignment pins from Brownells if necessary.

    308 buffer springs can be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer. I ended up trimming mine a bit.

    Last tip, load 1 round in the mag to test fire. If the BCG doesn’t lock back, it’s not gassed properly. Don’t waste a bunch of ammo thinking “maybe it’s different with multiple rounds.”
     
    Get an SA bleed off gas block. I have an Oden adjustable block on my .308 AR10 and it was fine. Tried the same block on my 6.5 Creed build and it would cycle even with the block turned all the way down. Put on the SA and was finally able to tame it...