What do I do now?

pmclaine

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I think it's appropriate to give the builder the first right of refusal to rectify his own work. If he refuses, then seek out the help of others.

Ole TacOps Mike sounds like he has a couple groupies ready to blow him in this thread.
I started a Win Model 70 build approx 3 years ago.

Building it into a USMC sniper.

Initially got it back in just under a year after getting all the parts. Typical time frame.

Beautiful looking rifle and it will stack bullets but it has a chamber issue and a muzzle issue - one a function problem, the second should have been an accuracy issue but it wasnt indicating it on paper.

Still it wasnt the rifle it should have been.

Builder has been very responsive, comms are great and his ability to work has been hurt by Covid restrictions. I paid for a service, builder has been servicing it and I want him to have the chance to fix it......shit happens.

but......

Its coming up on a year for basically a rebarel and the patience is only holding on due the fact I have other rifles to shoot.
 
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Mj30wilson900

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I started a Win Model 70 build approx 3 years ago.

Building it into a USMC sniper.

Initially got it back in just under a year after getting all the parts. Typical time frame.

Beautiful looking rifle and it will stack bullets but it has a chamber issue and a muzzle issue - one a function problem, the second should have been an accuracy issue but it wasnt indicating it on paper.

Still it wasnt the rifle it should have been.

Builder has been very responsive, comms are great and his ability to work has been hurt by Covid restrictions. I paid for a service, builder has been servicing it and I want him to have the chance to fix it......shit happens.

but......

Its coming up on a year for basically a rebarel and the patience is only holding on due the fact I have other rifles to shoot.
I agree if it was a sold rifle and a rebarrel was all it needed I would have expected them to turn that around quickly to take care of their customer.
 

Mgordon

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Good morning guys, I wanted to hop on to address some of the comments and concerns of all. It is very unfortunate for the author and owner of the rifle as well for Short Action Customs as a company that this rifle is not able to put together 5 shot groups under 1/2 MOA like our guarantee is.

I first want to explain that we do not test fire for accuracy each rifle because after doing this for 10 years full time, we have found that if we follow our Quality Control check lists and utilize high quality components, that the rifles will always shoot much better than our accuracy guarantee. If we did test fire for accuracy, I would be test firing rifles all day long and our prices would increase greatly.

In the very rare occasion where the services that we perform are 100% and the component list is stacked like this exact situation, we will always take care of our customers and make sure we go above and beyond. Paying special attention to the sacrifices that the customer has made at this point.

When it comes to addressing accuracy issues, we don't just "slap on" a new barrel and send it on its way, we dig deep into the rifle and address issues that are identified regardless of how large or small. This is the only fair thing to do for the customer, ourselves and the vendors that we use. This takes time, but we found some discrepancies in some of the hardware that only were able to be identified by having the rifle shot with dozens of rounds. We shot the customers rifle in these configurations.
  • Customers exact rifle and scope configuration
  • Customers exact rifle and SAC supplied scope
  • Customers exact rifle with and with out muzzle devices
  • Customers barreled action in a different stock
  • Customers action and stock with a different barrel with SAC supplied scope
  • Customers action with a different barrel, stock and SAC supplied scope.
This takes some time and we were able to narrow down what we believe the issue could possibly be. One thing to note is that the rifle "WANTS" to shoot. It will put together 3 shot groups, sometimes 4 shot groups, but the rifle (I still have not ruled out myself) cannot seem to shoot multiple groups under 1/2 MOA.

So we offered to skim bed the customers supplied Manners DBM Mini-chassis stock at no charge. That seemed to help, but not enough for our guarantee.
Next, we supplied a brand new barrel, chambered it, cut it to length, threaded it and installed it on the rifle. Again, no charge to the customer, but the rifle did not shoot good enough to meet our guarantee.

Let the record show that we are aggressively addressing the customers concerns, we are troubleshooting components and working toward ensuring our customer is taken care of and not given back a rifle that we are not proud of.

Lastly, Short Action Customs has consistently been in contact with the customer, offering updates and most importantly, letting the customer know that this is an open conversation with dialogue going in both directions. I believe we have a solid game plan for the customer and we will ensure that the customer is taken care of. Again, it is very unfortunate for a customer to be in this situation and we will work to ensure he comes out on top.

Mark Gordon
 

BuLLet

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Wow, now that's what I call standing behind your work. Makes me want to buy a rifle from a company making this kind of effort to get things right.



Good morning guys, I wanted to hop on to address some of the comments and concerns of all. It is very unfortunate for the author and owner of the rifle as well for Short Action Customs as a company that this rifle is not able to put together 5 shot groups under 1/2 MOA like our guarantee is.

I first want to explain that we do not test fire for accuracy each rifle because after doing this for 10 years full time, we have found that if we follow our Quality Control check lists and utilize high quality components, that the rifles will always shoot much better than our accuracy guarantee. If we did test fire for accuracy, I would be test firing rifles all day long and our prices would increase greatly.

In the very rare occasion where the services that we perform are 100% and the component list is stacked like this exact situation, we will always take care of our customers and make sure we go above and beyond. Paying special attention to the sacrifices that the customer has made at this point.

When it comes to addressing accuracy issues, we don't just "slap on" a new barrel and send it on its way, we dig deep into the rifle and address issues that are identified regardless of how large or small. This is the only fair thing to do for the customer, ourselves and the vendors that we use. This takes time, but we found some discrepancies in some of the hardware that only were able to be identified by having the rifle shot with dozens of rounds. We shot the customers rifle in these configurations.
  • Customers exact rifle and scope configuration
  • Customers exact rifle and SAC supplied scope
  • Customers exact rifle with and with out muzzle devices
  • Customers barreled action in a different stock
  • Customers action and stock with a different barrel with SAC supplied scope
  • Customers action with a different barrel, stock and SAC supplied scope.
This takes some time and we were able to narrow down what we believe the issue could possibly be. One thing to note is that the rifle "WANTS" to shoot. It will put together 3 shot groups, sometimes 4 shot groups, but the rifle (I still have not ruled out myself) cannot seem to shoot multiple groups under 1/2 MOA.

So we offered to skim bed the customers supplied Manners DBM Mini-chassis stock at no charge. That seemed to help, but not enough for our guarantee.
Next, we supplied a brand new barrel, chambered it, cut it to length, threaded it and installed it on the rifle. Again, no charge to the customer, but the rifle did not shoot good enough to meet our guarantee.

Let the record show that we are aggressively addressing the customers concerns, we are troubleshooting components and working toward ensuring our customer is taken care of and not given back a rifle that we are not proud of.

Lastly, Short Action Customs has consistently been in contact with the customer, offering updates and most importantly, letting the customer know that this is an open conversation with dialogue going in both directions. I believe we have a solid game plan for the customer and we will ensure that the customer is taken care of. Again, it is very unfortunate for a customer to be in this situation and we will work to ensure he comes out on top.

Mark Gordon
 
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Tony1320

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Good morning guys, I wanted to hop on to address some of the comments and concerns of all. It is very unfortunate for the author and owner of the rifle as well for Short Action Customs as a company that this rifle is not able to put together 5 shot groups under 1/2 MOA like our guarantee is.

I first want to explain that we do not test fire for accuracy each rifle because after doing this for 10 years full time, we have found that if we follow our Quality Control check lists and utilize high quality components, that the rifles will always shoot much better than our accuracy guarantee. If we did test fire for accuracy, I would be test firing rifles all day long and our prices would increase greatly.

In the very rare occasion where the services that we perform are 100% and the component list is stacked like this exact situation, we will always take care of our customers and make sure we go above and beyond. Paying special attention to the sacrifices that the customer has made at this point.

When it comes to addressing accuracy issues, we don't just "slap on" a new barrel and send it on its way, we dig deep into the rifle and address issues that are identified regardless of how large or small. This is the only fair thing to do for the customer, ourselves and the vendors that we use. This takes time, but we found some discrepancies in some of the hardware that only were able to be identified by having the rifle shot with dozens of rounds. We shot the customers rifle in these configurations.
  • Customers exact rifle and scope configuration
  • Customers exact rifle and SAC supplied scope
  • Customers exact rifle with and with out muzzle devices
  • Customers barreled action in a different stock
  • Customers action and stock with a different barrel with SAC supplied scope
  • Customers action with a different barrel, stock and SAC supplied scope.
This takes some time and we were able to narrow down what we believe the issue could possibly be. One thing to note is that the rifle "WANTS" to shoot. It will put together 3 shot groups, sometimes 4 shot groups, but the rifle (I still have not ruled out myself) cannot seem to shoot multiple groups under 1/2 MOA.

So we offered to skim bed the customers supplied Manners DBM Mini-chassis stock at no charge. That seemed to help, but not enough for our guarantee.
Next, we supplied a brand new barrel, chambered it, cut it to length, threaded it and installed it on the rifle. Again, no charge to the customer, but the rifle did not shoot good enough to meet our guarantee.

Let the record show that we are aggressively addressing the customers concerns, we are troubleshooting components and working toward ensuring our customer is taken care of and not given back a rifle that we are not proud of.

Lastly, Short Action Customs has consistently been in contact with the customer, offering updates and most importantly, letting the customer know that this is an open conversation with dialogue going in both directions. I believe we have a solid game plan for the customer and we will ensure that the customer is taken care of. Again, it is very unfortunate for a customer to be in this situation and we will work to ensure he comes out on top.

Mark Gordon
Great job taking the time to help the customer resolve the issue. Sometimes things happen outside of your control it's how you take care of the customer that counts.

Have you looked into ignition issues?

Bedding the stock helping makes me think to look further in this area too. Which stock did you swap in to try? Do you have a Foundation on hand to try?
 

BillyNg

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I just want to reassert what Mark posted. I intentionally left his name and Short Action Custom's name out of this thread as best I could because I did not want to trash his company's name. Mark and the team over there have been trying hard to get this sorted, and they hadn't thrown in the towel yet.

I know there are some great builders and some great shooters here at the Hide and I was hoping that by listing the components, and the steps taken so far, that maybe someone had an idea. Alternatively, maybe the collective would tell me that I was expecting too much (I didn't think so, but everyone needs a good reality check every now and again).

Mark has been nothing but a class act, even when I wasn't. This rifle carries significant 'weight' in my life and with my stress levels, far far more than it should, and as a result I've emailed some things I shouldn't have. Through it all Mark never flinched, never lost his cool, and always promised to take care of me.

If you need a precision build: https://www.shortactioncustoms.com/
 
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Baron23

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There is a plan


Funny you mention that. There is a plan in place between MikeR and my builder. It involves a new action (apparently Impact has already agreed to take-back the one on my rifle), a Krieger barrel, and since the PRS-1 has been bedded unfortunately, it appears that it will have to include a new stock or chassis. I'll see if I can recoup some of the PRS-1 cost by selling it, but doubt I'll get much for it in its currently bedded condition.

Either way, there's a plan. Which is great, and gives me hope. It also felt good to hear how well Mike spoke about my builder. Mike has a lot of respect for him and his products, which says a LOT considering who Mike is. I will sleep soundly tonight.
So, is Impact warranting the action so new one at no cost?

And you are dumping the Bartlein in favor of a Krieger....covered under warranty by original builder?

And it sounds like you are on the hook for a new stock?

Its not that I'm just trying to dig up dirt about this deal and throw water on it. But this started as a thread about a gun with a "guarantee" so it sort of seems reasonable to wonder what that guarantee provided in the end.

Cheers and I'm glad you got this going in a positive direction and big shout out to @MikeRTacOps for jumping in and helping out. Very cool.
 
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Secant

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@Mgordon

So, let's say there's a 5/8 - 3/4 MOA (ish) barrel that was spun-up for an Impact, which I believe has a 11/16x16 tpi barrel thread tenon. What would need to happen for that barrel to be used on a Lone Peak Razor, which also has a 11/16x16 tennon?

Also, what would be going rate for said used barrel? Asking for a friend ;)
 
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BillyNg

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So, is Impact warrantying the action so new one at no cost?

And you are dumping the Bartlein in favor of a Krieger....covered under warranty by original builder?

And it sounds like you are on the hook for a new stock?

Its not that I'm just trying to dig up dirt about this deal and throw water on it. But this started as a thread about a gun with a "guarantee" so it sort of seems reasonable to wonder what that guarantee provided in the end.

Cheers and I'm glad you got this going in a positive direction and big shout out to @MikeRTacOps for jumping in and helping out. Very cool.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure. @MikeRTacOps called me a couple of times yesterday and spoke to @Mgordon a few times apparently too. I haven't spoken to Mark yet (this is all happening rather fast). Last I heard was from Mike at Tac Ops last night and he lightly laid out the plan of attack, but noted that we would need to work out the specifics. I'm expecting those details to be worked out in the next couple of days, maybe a week, and then we execute and see what the results are.

As far as the barrel goes. Mike recommended it. I have no personal preference, or I should say, I HAD no personal preference before speaking to Mike. Knowing that Mike highly recommends Krieger in a specific configuration means that now I DO have a personal preference, and as barrels are a consumable anyway, I'm happy to pay for the re-barrel in this situation.

As far as me possibly having to pay for a new stock/chassis ... there are many factors there. I was the one who specified that action and the stock was mine (provided by me directly). I was asked prior to, and personally authorized the bedding of that action in the stock, knowing full well that the stock would be more or less non-transferable afterwards. I'm not saying that the responsibility falls entirely on me, as the bedding was authorized under the assumption that it was going to fix the accuracy issue entirely, but I was keenly aware that that was more of an educated guess than it was a fact.

Once I speak to the builder and we finalize the plan, I'll know more and I hope that we're in a place where all parties are satisfied. A stock change isn't the worst thing, I'm not exactly enamored with the PRS-1. We bought my 10 year-old son a Howa 1500 heavy-barrel .223 and threw it in a KRG Bravo and I've mentioned at least a few times here at the Hide that the KRG Bravo at $350 is, in just about every way, better than my $1200 PRS-1
 

JakeM

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Seams to me the only constant that has been the same in the tests, is the action. Please correct me if i'am wrong.
 

Baron23

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Seams to me the only constant that has been the same in the tests, is the action. Please correct me if i'am wrong.
Not wrong. There is already a plan to address that.
Really....you changed barrels on the same action? I guess I need to read closer as I didn't get that at all.

Cheers and once again, sounds like you are on a positive trajectory with this and that happiness should be the focus going forward, yeah?

Best of luck and look forward to your report of shooting .25 MOA groups with the rebuilt gun.
 

BillyNg

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It's been a hot minute, which means I've had a few emails back and forth with @Mgordon and I've gotten another phone call from @MikeRTacOps. I'm being taken care of, in a strong strong way, by both men. Out of respect for their generosity I'll not go into details, but as a customer, I'm more than satisfied right now.

If you need a precision rifle:

 

OG10

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Congratulations you have two of the best Gunsmith's in this country working on your problem you need to go buy a lottery ticket by far this is as lucky as you'll ever be in your life and you need to thank both of them repeatedly.
 

JC0352

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Glad to see this situation has made a turn for the better for the OP! Amazing service on the part of TacOps and your builder!

I can’t help but wonder if it’s the action... wonder how both of those barrels would shoot on another Impact (just a simpleton, ignorant of gunsmithing, thinking out loud)
 

6brshooter

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    Interesting, only constant is the action. Ive literally screwed on criterion prefits to savage and rem actions with no truing or minimal truing that would shoot in the hi .2s- lo .4s with handloads. Something must be wrong with action/ignition. Impact(exchange action), Mark(smithing/troubleshooting), and TacOps(smithing/troubleshooting) should get you sorted out. Op, for inspiration, my impact and fireforming loads in 243 cutright. Those dudes will get your rig sorted out and shooting lights out.20200128_140032.jpg
     

    ACard

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    There is a plan


    Funny you mention that. There is a plan in place between MikeR and my builder. It involves a new action (apparently Impact has already agreed to take-back the one on my rifle), a Krieger barrel, and since the PRS-1 has been bedded unfortunately, it appears that it will have to include a new stock or chassis. I'll see if I can recoup some of the PRS-1 cost by selling it, but doubt I'll get much for it in its currently bedded condition.

    Either way, there's a plan. Which is great, and gives me hope. It also felt good to hear how well Mike spoke about my builder. Mike has a lot of respect for him and his products, which says a LOT considering who Mike is. I will sleep soundly tonight.
    Well that does sound like good news indeed! I am glad to hear it, regrettably it will cost some more but I think chances are very good it will alleviate your issues. Please note, I am a senior tech on mechanical devices that require very tight tolerances (often +/-0.01mm) and some of the most incredible modern machining processes...even with all that we still have occasional issues. I was not trying to be obtuse or antagonistic.
     
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    OneMoreNoMore

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    I wonder if it could be ignition issues. I recently had my impact bolt apart for cleaning the other day and the firing pin spring to bolt body clearance seemed a little tight to my uneducated mind. If there is any debris, surface rust, cerakote or even too much lube could cause some issues.
     

    tacops1

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    Kudos to Mike at Tacops and MGordon at SAC. I believe after some frustrating times with this rifle the owner will end up getting a rifle of his dreams. Great customer service
     
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    Biggie1976

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    This just shows theres companies who still stand behind their product and continue to operate a strong business!!!
     

    MikeRTacOps

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    @MikeRTacOps , I’m 100% positive you’re a great guy

    Have we met do we know each other ? That statement " I'm 100% positive you're a great guy" Is that just a presumption from things you read about me here on the Hide or just from helping out the OP and Mark @ Short Action Custom ?

    May I ask, objectively, what lead you to want to replace the action?

    Are you privy to what has been happening during the OP build process ? Have you read the entire thread ? Have you called Mark and did a Q & A ?




    Mike R.
     

    Wheres-Waldo

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    @MikeRTacOps , I’m 100% positive you’re a great guy

    Have we met do we know each other ? That statement " I'm 100% positive you're a great guy" Is that just a presumption from things you read about me here on the Hide or just from helping out the OP and Mark @ Short Action Custom ?

    May I ask, objectively, what lead you to want to replace the action?

    Are you privy to what has been happening during the OP build process ? Have you read the entire thread ? Have you called Mark and did a Q & A ?


    Mike R.
    Well shit, look at you proving me wrong.

    We both know no one called anyone for a Q & A, which is why I asked... 🤷‍♂️
     
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    morganlamprecht

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    anyone who has been around the bolt action forum, in any Impact related thread since the day impact didnt jump at mike's name a while back could have seen it coming lol
     
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    tacops1

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    anyone who has been around the bolt action forum, in any Impact related thread since the day impact didnt jump at mike's name a while back could have seen it coming lol
    Can you define “jump at mikes name” im
    Unaware of this ? But in this case /thread I don’t see action A being all that it was cracked up to be and had issues ...will action X that remains to be seen, but I doubt it will
     

    morganlamprecht

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    there was a thread and 2 sides to the story that didnt match...just like every story posted on the internet

    im not going back to find it tho
     

    Baron23

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    I don't care about old "he said this/he said that" between Mike and Impact.

    I also admire Mike but its strictly on the basis of his kind act of jumping in to help this member and SAC resolve the issues with this gun (cause I don't know anything else about him personally). So, to that extent, I also think Mike is a great guy! haha

    But why change the action is a reasonable question. Its a high end action that apparently has proved its quality and I would think that if there was any sort of defect in it being square, plumb, and true that this could be easily determined by a gunsmith and corrected. Am I wrong on this?

    Have a great day, guys....its beautiful here in MD today and I'm heading out to the club. Cheers
     
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    ofelas

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    A man who offers to send out the first barrel on the house is a man I’d buy the first beer for.

    Your most welcome and thank you for being a complete gentleman :) Let me know when you need a barrel if you can't locate one in a timely manner ? , I'll send it out the same day and the first one is on me ;)

    Mike R.
     

    dimar1492

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    A man who offers to send out the first barrel on the house is a man I’d buy the first beer for.
    Most certainly, and if he ever has a couple days to burn in South LA I can even put together a fishing trip. No better place in the country for inshore speckled trout and redfish.
     
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    Jmcmath

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    I don't care about old "he said this/he said that" between Mike and Impact.

    I also admire Mike but its strictly on the basis of his kind act of jumping in to help this member and SAC resolve the issues with this gun (cause I don't know anything else about him personally). So, to that extent, I also think Mike is a great guy! haha

    But why change the action is a reasonable question. Its a high end action that apparently has proved its quality and I would think that if there was any sort of defect in it being square, plumb, and true that this could be easily determined by a gunsmith and corrected. Am I wrong on this?

    Have a great day, guys....its beautiful here in MD today and I'm heading out to the club. Cheers
    there are other things besides being square that go into an action in an accurate rifle

    I think throwing out random suggestions that have been known to cause problems would be pretty useless though
     
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    sirboom

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    Aside from getting my money back and sending in my scope just to make sure it's not ever so slightly shifting POA after every shot, I would have another smith look at the barrel work and make sure it checks out. Or even get a totally different barrel. My Savage 12FV with factory 26" barrel and a grabby, only smooth if you actuate it just right action will almost always shoot 1/2 MOA with Federal 168 MatchKings at 100 yards -- bugholes -- but only with 3 or 4 shot groups. It's a HB but the 5th often ventures a bit to the right or left enough to turn it into a 3/4 MOA. But since it's intended for PRS tactical class and I am not good enough in that context to even use all the rounds they say are required... that's good enough for me. If I paid for a custom rifle, I'd expect 1/2 MOA for 10 shot strings within a 90 second window.
     

    MikeRTacOps

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    Well shit, look at you proving me wrong.

    We both know no one called anyone for a Q & A, which is why I asked... 🤷‍♂️
    Im sorry you feel that way I was just curious if we knew each other or had some previous contact as you stated I'm a great guy ;) It's funny things don't always come out the way one desires them to when writing on the forums.. No harm no foul :)
    To answer your question it's what the Op and Mark wanted I'm just a spoke on a wheel trying to make it go round and round smoothly...

    Mike R.
     

    MikeRTacOps

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    Interesting, only constant is the action. Ive literally screwed on criterion prefits to savage and rem actions with no truing or minimal truing that would shoot in the hi .2s- lo .4s with handloads. Something must be wrong with action/ignition. Impact(exchange action), Mark(smithing/troubleshooting), and TacOps(smithing/troubleshooting) should get you sorted out. Op, for inspiration, my impact and fireforming loads in 243 cutright. Those dudes will get your rig sorted out and shooting lights out.View attachment 7426968
    Nice to see you back on the Block and greattttt shooting by the way :)

    Mike R.
     
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    Baron23

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    there are other things besides being square that go into an action in an accurate rifle
    Well, yes but isn’t that the gunsmiths job? I still wonder what defect in a high end action is a fatal flaw they requires a new action.

    Nit my gun so not really a concern of mine and it appears that this is the way they all want to go.

    But to my mind it is curious

    cheers
     

    dimar1492

    Sergeant
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    Minuteman
    Feb 27, 2010
    481
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    Louisiana
    Well, yes but isn’t that the gunsmiths job? I still wonder what defect in a high end action is a fatal flaw they requires a new action.

    Nit my gun so not really a concern of mine and it appears that this is the way they all want to go.

    But to my mind it is curious

    cheers
    Some "flaws" may not readily expose themselves until you shoot the rifle. As Mark had said earlier in the thread, when using quality components coupled with his stringent QC process these types of results are rare.
     

    Wheres-Waldo

    Gunny Sergeant
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    Nov 2, 2008
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    @MikeRTacOps

    No harm done. I don’t know you personally and am not a client. I’ve seen enough of you to know you are a good guy. Take it or leave it lol.

    As far as the action, anyone can make an action that comes messed up, hell, even NASA blows stuff up. I know Impact said they would take it back. I know the OP had pretty much a new rifle built with the only common factor being the action.

    I was curious if you ran a fine tooth comb through it and found issues, or you wanted to eliminate all your variables... I don’t know, so I asked. It’s at your discretion to answer, not required.
     

    MikeRTacOps

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    Jun 18, 2017
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    @MikeRTacOps

    No harm done. I don’t know you personally and am not a client. I’ve seen enough of you to know you are a good guy. Take it or leave it lol.

    As far as the action, anyone can make an action that comes messed up, hell, even NASA blows stuff up. I know Impact said they would take it back. I know the OP had pretty much a new rifle built with the only common factor being the action.

    I was curious if you ran a fine tooth comb through it and found issues, or you wanted to eliminate all your variables... I don’t know, so I asked. It’s at your discretion to answer, not required.
    Roger that and Thank you for the Class act reply you are a gentleman and I can see your curious on several factors...
    PM inbound...

    Mike R.
     

    BillyNg

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    Oct 30, 2009
    124
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    Hartsdale, NY
    @MikeRTacOps , I’m 100% positive you’re a great guy, but I saw the replacement of an Impact with brand X from miles away 😂

    May I ask, objectively, what lead you to want to replace the action? Simply that it was the last major component not to be swapped out or?
    This thread seems to be derailing into something else. I would love to know the history here, but in the absence of that, I'll explain things as they happened.

    During one of my earlier conversations with @MikeRTacOps, we discussed a lot about the rifle and about the way it shoots (vertical or horizontal stringing of groups, velocity data, what remedial/diagnostic steps have I taken so far, etc). Here's what we came to the conclusion of pretty quickly ...

    Scope - NOT the problem.
    I've tried two different scopes personally with two different mounts, I've also removed and re-seated my Mark 5HD a number of times. I also threw out my Wheeler Fat Wrench due to conflicting reports about its accuracy and bought a Borka to make sure I had proper torque. On top of that, Short Action Customs tried a known-good scope when they got the rifle back for evaluation. The scope isn't the culprit.

    Barrel - NOT the problem.
    There's a reason Short Action Customs is highly regarded in the PRS circuit. There's a reason Short Action Customs has a 1/2 MOA guarantee on their rifles. There's a reason Mike at TacOps holds Mark and his company in high regard. It's because Mark knows how to build a rifle, and that includes a precision chambering and crowning. Mark bore-scoped the initial barrel that was on my gun, found nothing that would explain the issues. He tried a known good barrel that he had in the shop. And he ended up cutting/fitting a brand new Bartlein to see if that would fix the issue, it didn't. The barrel isn't the culprit.

    Brake - NOT the problem.
    Brake on, brake off, new brake. All groups the same. The brake isn't the culprit.

    Shooter - LIKELY NOT the problem.
    I have no trophies to show, I have no sniper background to wave in the air. I'm just a relatively-bright guy who has loved shooting for the past 22 years, who has spent the time necessary to understand how to shoot rifles accurately, and who when given equipment that can do it has put together his fair share of 1/4 MOA groups. But through this process, I always entertained that it might just be me, despite the fact that the rifle is crazy easy to shoot (it's got less recoil than my son's heavy-barrel non-braked .223). So when I delivered it to Mark Gordon and he put together almost identical groups to what I've gotten, and given that Mark is who Mark is, I'm going to say that shooter LIKELY isn't the culprit.

    Stock - NOT the problem.
    The Manners PRS-1 is a stunning stock, and widely used in precision builds. It's easy to verify that the stock isn't putting any undue stress on the barrel or action, and the action screws had been checked and re-torqued numerous times. As a final straw, we went and bedded the action to the stock, and that didn't tighten up the groups seemingly at all. The stock isn't the culprit.

    After discussing this with MikeR (our initial phone conversation was over 30 minutes), the only thing left was the bolt and receiver. There's quite literally, nothing else left to the equation as many people in this thread have pointed out.

    And I have two issues with my original action. The first was discovered the minute I handed the rifle back to Short Action Customs. Mike immediately (like, I was still standing next to him kind of immediately) noticed that I had brass shavings inside the action. The extractor tension was way too high. Mark was able to fix that easily. The second issue, at least it was from my perspective, was that when the barreled-action was sent back to Impact, it was returned later with a note that it was within spec and that it shot great. The 'shot great' bit is what concerns me, because the rifle has NEVER shot great.

    I mentioned to Mike that I wasn't married to any particular action, that it was a toss-up for me on either an Impact or a Surgeon when I originally spec'd the rifle with Mark, and if I've got to swap it out anyway, I'd rather change directions. So I asked him if he has any experience with Surgeon. He confirmed that they make a solid product, so I pulled the trigger (no pun intended) over the phone. Everything I see about Impact online is great, which is why I originally ordered one. But my experience hasn't been so hot, and I'm excited to see what going under the knife is like (see what I did there?).

    Billy
     
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    ofelas

    Sergeant of the Hide
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    Nov 23, 2011
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    Duffelstan
    Mark & Mike are well respected, and are treating you right.

    Until you get the end product back, and prove that the nut behind the bolt isn’t the weak link, I think you should should stop hypothesizing.

    At the end of the outcome, I’m certain the builder/s won’t be the issue.

    Good luck, I’m almost positive you’ll enjoy a happy ending.

    Report back as such.

    And at the end of the day, run several uphill sprints in full gear back to back, hit torso plates in rapid succession at different ranges using just the reticle, call the wind, try a few movers, don’t worry about your “MOA guarantee”, and be happy.

    This thread seems to be derailing into something else. I would love to know the history here, but in the absence of that, I'll explain things as they happened.

    During one of my earlier conversations with @MikeRTacOps, we discussed a lot about the rifle and about the way it shoots (vertical or horizontal stringing of groups, velocity data, what remedial/diagnostic steps have I taken so far, etc). Here's what we came to the conclusion of pretty quickly ...

    Scope - NOT the problem.
    I've tried two different scopes personally with two different mounts, I've also removed and re-seated my Mark 5HD a number of times. I also threw out my Wheeler Fat Wrench due to conflicting reports about its accuracy and bought a Borka to make sure I had proper torque. On top of that, Short Action Customs tried a known-good scope when they got the rifle back for evaluation. The scope isn't the culprit.

    Barrel - NOT the problem.
    There's a reason Short Action Customs is highly regarded in the PRS circuit. There's a reason Short Action Customs has a 1/2 MOA guarantee on their rifles. There's a reason Mike at TacOps holds Mark and his company in high regard. It's because Mark knows how to build a rifle, and that includes a precision chambering and crowning. Mark bore-scoped the initial barrel that was on my gun, found nothing that would explain the issues. He tried a known good barrel that he had in the shop. And he ended up cutting/fitting a brand new Bartlein to see if that would fix the issue, it didn't. The barrel isn't the culprit.

    Brake - NOT the problem.
    Brake on, brake off, new brake. All groups the same. The brake isn't the culprit.

    Shooter - LIKELY NOT the problem.
    I have no trophies to show, I have no sniper background to wave in the air. I'm just a relatively-bright guy who has loved shooting for the past 22 years, who has spent the time necessary to understand how to shoot rifles accurately, and who when given equipment that can do it has put together his fair share of 1/4 MOA groups. But through this process, I always entertained that it might just be me, despite the fact that the rifle is crazy easy to shoot (it's got less recoil than my son's heavy-barrel non-braked .223). So when I delivered it to Mark Gordon and he put together almost identical groups to what I've gotten, and given that Mark is who Mark is, I'm going to say that shooter LIKELY isn't the culprit.

    Stock - NOT the problem.
    The Manners PRS-1 is a stunning stock, and widely used in precision builds. It's easy to verify that the stock isn't putting any undue stress on the barrel or action, and the action screws had been checked and re-torqued numerous times. As a final straw, we went and bedded the action to the stock, and that didn't tighten up the groups seemingly at all. The stock isn't the culprit.

    After discussing this with MikeR (our initial phone conversation was over 30 minutes), the only thing left was the bolt and receiver. There's quite literally, nothing else left to the equation as many people in this thread have pointed out.

    And I have two issues with my original action. The first was discovered the minute I handed the rifle back to Short Action Customs. Mike immediately (like, I was still standing next to him kind of immediately) noticed that I had brass shavings inside the action. The extractor tension was way too high. Mark was able to fix that easily. The second issue, at least it was from my perspective, was that when the barreled-action was sent back to Impact, it was returned later with a note that it was within spec and that it shot great. The 'shot great' bit is what concerns me, because the rifle has NEVER shot great.

    I mentioned to Mike that I wasn't married to any particular action, that it was a toss-up for me on either an Impact or a Surgeon when I originally spec'd the rifle with Mark, and if I've got to swap it out anyway, I'd rather change directions. So I asked him if he has any experience with Surgeon. He confirmed that they make a solid product, so I pulled the trigger (no pun intended) over the phone. Everything I see about Impact online is great, which is why I originally ordered one. But my experience hasn't been so hot, and I'm excited to see what going under the knife is like (see what I did there?).

    Billy
     

    BillyNg

    Private
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    Oct 30, 2009
    124
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    Hartsdale, NY
    Mark & Mike are well respected, and are treating you right.

    Until you get the end product back, and prove that the nut behind the bolt isn’t the weak link, I think you should should stop hypothesizing.

    At the end of the outcome, I’m certain the builder/s won’t be the issue.

    Good luck, I’m almost positive you’ll enjoy a happy ending.

    Report back as such.

    And at the end of the day, run several uphill sprints in full gear back to back, hit torso plates in rapid succession at different ranges using just the reticle, call the wind, try a few movers, don’t worry about your “MOA guarantee”, and be happy.
    I addressed the nut behind the bolt in my post, you should read it.
     
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    Tony1320

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    Feb 13, 2017
    374
    97
    This thread seems to be derailing into something else. I would love to know the history here, but in the absence of that, I'll explain things as they happened.

    During one of my earlier conversations with @MikeRTacOps, we discussed a lot about the rifle and about the way it shoots (vertical or horizontal stringing of groups, velocity data, what remedial/diagnostic steps have I taken so far, etc). Here's what we came to the conclusion of pretty quickly ...

    Scope - NOT the problem.
    I've tried two different scopes personally with two different mounts, I've also removed and re-seated my Mark 5HD a number of times. I also threw out my Wheeler Fat Wrench due to conflicting reports about its accuracy and bought a Borka to make sure I had proper torque. On top of that, Short Action Customs tried a known-good scope when they got the rifle back for evaluation. The scope isn't the culprit.

    Barrel - NOT the problem.
    There's a reason Short Action Customs is highly regarded in the PRS circuit. There's a reason Short Action Customs has a 1/2 MOA guarantee on their rifles. There's a reason Mike at TacOps holds Mark and his company in high regard. It's because Mark knows how to build a rifle, and that includes a precision chambering and crowning. Mark bore-scoped the initial barrel that was on my gun, found nothing that would explain the issues. He tried a known good barrel that he had in the shop. And he ended up cutting/fitting a brand new Bartlein to see if that would fix the issue, it didn't. The barrel isn't the culprit.

    Brake - NOT the problem.
    Brake on, brake off, new brake. All groups the same. The brake isn't the culprit.

    Shooter - LIKELY NOT the problem.
    I have no trophies to show, I have no sniper background to wave in the air. I'm just a relatively-bright guy who has loved shooting for the past 22 years, who has spent the time necessary to understand how to shoot rifles accurately, and who when given equipment that can do it has put together his fair share of 1/4 MOA groups. But through this process, I always entertained that it might just be me, despite the fact that the rifle is crazy easy to shoot (it's got less recoil than my son's heavy-barrel non-braked .223). So when I delivered it to Mark Gordon and he put together almost identical groups to what I've gotten, and given that Mark is who Mark is, I'm going to say that shooter LIKELY isn't the culprit.

    Stock - NOT the problem.
    The Manners PRS-1 is a stunning stock, and widely used in precision builds. It's easy to verify that the stock isn't putting any undue stress on the barrel or action, and the action screws had been checked and re-torqued numerous times. As a final straw, we went and bedded the action to the stock, and that didn't tighten up the groups seemingly at all. The stock isn't the culprit.

    After discussing this with MikeR (our initial phone conversation was over 30 minutes), the only thing left was the bolt and receiver. There's quite literally, nothing else left to the equation as many people in this thread have pointed out.

    And I have two issues with my original action. The first was discovered the minute I handed the rifle back to Short Action Customs. Mike immediately (like, I was still standing next to him kind of immediately) noticed that I had brass shavings inside the action. The extractor tension was way too high. Mark was able to fix that easily. The second issue, at least it was from my perspective, was that when the barreled-action was sent back to Impact, it was returned later with a note that it was within spec and that it shot great. The 'shot great' bit is what concerns me, because the rifle has NEVER shot great.

    I mentioned to Mike that I wasn't married to any particular action, that it was a toss-up for me on either an Impact or a Surgeon when I originally spec'd the rifle with Mark, and if I've got to swap it out anyway, I'd rather change directions. So I asked him if he has any experience with Surgeon. He confirmed that they make a solid product, so I pulled the trigger (no pun intended) over the phone. Everything I see about Impact online is great, which is why I originally ordered one. But my experience hasn't been so hot, and I'm excited to see what going under the knife is like (see what I did there?).

    Billy
    I would ask Impact what kind of groups they shot and how did they shoot the barreled action.
     

    just browsing

    just enough to be dangerous
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    Minuteman
    Feb 18, 2017
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    NEPA
    Two things:
    1. Was the rifle ever shot at distance?

    2. Did you ever consider trying a tuner? Obviously, a tuner shouldn’t be needed given the parts and builder in question, but just sort of as a gut check?

    I am certain this will be sorted out between the two guys working on the rifle anyway, just would have been curious to see if the above ideas could have gleaned any additional info.