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Let’s just end this argument once and for all.
9mm is better than .45.
Sirhr
9mm is better than .45.
Sirhr
M
Metric is better than imperial everyday.
Anyone know the number of actual shots taken by SWAT snipers in the last year or five years maybe even ten years?
Fairly hard to know precisely as there's no real standard for reporting and such. So it takes a lot of legwork by organizations and self reporting from agencies/departments.
To give a semi-decent idea, the American Sniper Association has catalogued a little over 500 engagements from 1984-2022. That would average a bit over 13 per year. Considering the organization was formed in 2000, and data prior to mid to late 2000's is likely pretty hard to figure out since far less electronic records......it's likely a decent amount more engagements than 13 per year.
50-100 per year is probably the very top end. Likely more in the 30-60 area.
Highlights of ASA's data:
-Mostly .308
-Less than half the shots were head shots
-About half the shots were not prone
-98% is less than 200yds
-Just under half were low light hours, however, rarely is night vision employed (there's a need but depts aren't buying them)
-Zero reports of multiple suspects being engaged. Only multiple snipers engaging a single subject
So...
6.5 crudsnore
243, 7-08, 257 roberts....etc etc and so on
Hornady marketing
That is all it is.
Fuck that.
Give me a heavier bullet every day, all day.
I can adjust for the drop, simple twist of a knob.
I'll take a long action every time.
30-06 over a 308 all day long.
Heavy bullet with reasonable trajectory over a light bullet that is flatter shooting.....yup.
There's a very good reason the old buffalo hunters used a 45 or 50 cal bullet and gave fuck all about velocity.
Heavy bullets work.
Light ones....not so much.
6.5 crudsnore
243, 7-08, 257 roberts....etc etc and so on
Hornady marketing
That is all it is.
Fuck that.
Give me a heavier bullet every day, all day.
I can adjust for the drop, simple twist of a knob.
I'll take a long action every time.
30-06 over a 308 all day long.
Heavy bullet with reasonable trajectory over a light bullet that is flatter shooting.....yup.
There's a very good reason the old buffalo hunters used a 45 or 50 cal bullet and gave fuck all about velocity.
Heavy bullets work.
Light ones....not so much.
This was quite entertaining. Ballistic speaking the 6.5 beats the 308 in everything.
Realistically for me up to 500m there is not any advantage to either cartridge. The limit is my shooting and wind reading ability. Past that the 6.5 wins hands down.
There are only 2 metrics where the 308 is ahead; barrel life and component availability.
Barrel life might not be a deal breaker to you, but in my shithole country getting a new barrel fitted legally takes around a year. This is where it makes sense to have a rifle that holds target rifle accuracy for 5k+. Even then it would still have hunting accuracy for a few thousand rounds more, provided you keep your hunting to sane distances. You could hunt your whole life with one rifle and leave it in your will for your eldest who will treasure it for ever (or not).
As for component availability, I am of the opinion that as long as the .308 Win, or 7.62x51mm is a NATO round, ammo and component availability will always be in the .308's favour.
If I was living in the States, the question would be moot. There are much better cartridges available than either.
Realistically for me up to 500m there is not any advantage to either cartridge. The limit is my shooting and wind reading ability. Past that the 6.5 wins hands down.
There are only 2 metrics where the 308 is ahead; barrel life and component availability.
Barrel life might not be a deal breaker to you, but in my shithole country getting a new barrel fitted legally takes around a year. This is where it makes sense to have a rifle that holds target rifle accuracy for 5k+. Even then it would still have hunting accuracy for a few thousand rounds more, provided you keep your hunting to sane distances. You could hunt your whole life with one rifle and leave it in your will for your eldest who will treasure it for ever (or not).
As for component availability, I am of the opinion that as long as the .308 Win, or 7.62x51mm is a NATO round, ammo and component availability will always be in the .308's favour.
If I was living in the States, the question would be moot. There are much better cartridges available than either.
Any. They’re free. You’re just lazy.
168 TMk has a higher BC than the 169 SMK but it still can't touch the basic 6.5 mm 140g bullets.
Just use this. Best of both worlds.
30 caliber, AND is says Creedmoor.
Y'all can close the thread now.
30 caliber, AND is says Creedmoor.
Y'all can close the thread now.
Lapua 260 brass is pretty spendy too.
So being poor is a reason now?
a true poor is someone that chooses the more expensive option that offers no performance gains and has less options.
Cause reasons
Not having the bullet IN the powder column is a reason.
Folks forget all about the the 6.5x55
I guess having to move your bolt like half an inch more is way too much for folks.
For a 130 year+ year old cartridge, it can hang pretty good with the latest "cool" stuff if you load it to modern pressures with a modern bullet.
(And it can outperform the 6.5cm or can have better barrel life, depending on your preference.)
But even back in the 1940s the 6.5x55 was firing bullets that can easily be seen as the forerunners of today's "latest" bullets:
Yep. And it was better than a .308 back then too.
Is it a long action cartridge?
Technically a medium
You need just a bit more than the traditional short .308
But of course if you can run it in a long action then you have maximum freedom.
Most factory rifles that were built for it were what folks would call medium actions.
308 51mm 6.5x55 55mm. 6.5/06 63mm
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I dont think so. They stretch the case 22mm to make a 30-06 based wildcat?
Oops that was OAL. 63mm
There is of course also the well established 6.5x284 however that chambering while giving you excellent ballistics, kind of thinks about barrels as a snack...
No with any particular skill or organization, no. Any honest veteran knows this.
See. For people that don’t reload.
All new cartridges are better.
Tighter chamber tolerances.
Don’t have to light load in case somebody tries to shoot it in some antique
HUH!? I just ordered some last week. You saying I should order all I can find?
Ya might they stopped new 260 brass production last year....
Google Play Store. Also available on Apple.
It's free and there are a few free ones. And some that cost. Probably the most expensive is Applied Ballistics, $30 dollars.
Strelok Pro is banned from Apple and Google because the guy is russian. I am not kidding. You can get it through the Galaxy Store.
Also, you can go and print your own data using this online calculator.
Edited to add:
Federal Ammunition has an online calculator.
Vortex also has one.
ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator
Calculates the ballistic trajectory of a bullet fired from a rifle, handgun or other firearm. Produces a ballistic trajectory chart and table that shows the drop, velocity, kinetic energy, windage, and trajectory of a bullet.
Damn. Guess I best get to ordering. I dont see 243 brass on the list so at least there is that to neck up if worse comes to worse.
Starline has .260 brass in stock.
Ok ok, I might concede that the 6.5 is slightly better than the 308.
But the 7.62 is slightly superior to the 6.5
Period.
But the 7.62 is slightly superior to the 6.5
Period.
7.62 is 1.12 better than 6.5. It’s the bestest.Ok ok, I might concede that the 6.5 is slightly better than the 308.
But the 7.62 is slightly superior to the 6.5
Period.
Hay swifty.
The more I show the simple fact that my opinion differs with yours.
And
You can't deal with that like a grown up.
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Op did you say you had a place to shoot to a mile?. And you already have a .308? Might have been a different thread or I'm combining two different threads. Or I'm just wrong altogether. Give the kid your .308 and a get a .300prc. decent glass for both. Spot for each other. Whenever the .308 runs outta gas get on the bigger 30.
Once the .308 is outta gas the ding from the 6.5 ain't THAT much better. Might as well step up a bit more.
Once the .308 is outta gas the ding from the 6.5 ain't THAT much better. Might as well step up a bit more.
6.5-7.62 = -1.12
Clearly, 6.5 is less than 7.62.
Clearly, 6.5 is less than 7.62.
I thought that too until I starting woodworking. For small linear measurements (edit: for designing wood stuff! Maybe carpentry! Not machinists!), imperial rocks. I can’t really comment on the other types of measurements (longer distances, weight, volume, etc).
Some examples…
Problems with metric occur when you make stuff with your hands vs. a CNC (or constantly using a calculator):
- Metric does not readily break down into whole number fractions.
- Example: metric (base 10) only breaks down to 1/5 and 1/2
Imperial (base 12) breaks down much more intuitively. From a foot, or 12”:
- Half = 6”
- Thirds = 4”
- Quarters = 3”
- 1/6 = 2”
And then I was soon depressed when I wanted to divide a meter into threes. 33.333333333333∞ cms. FFS.
I became chained to a calculator and actually laying things out became a chore, even with a 1/2mm ruler (see 33.333∞ above).
The multi-resolution imperial foot is so, so, so much easier to deal with in actual construction of things made by hand. Woodworker rulers that contain three or four different resolutions on the same ruler are awesome and allow quick measurements.
Need rough measurements? 1/8”
A little finer? Use the 1/16” edge of the ruler
Finer still? 1/32”
And one can go to 1/64” if you want.
Starret 4r ruler below (1/8, 1/16, 1/32, & 1/64 all on a different side)
With metric, you have the ultra, ultra, ultra coarse cm…nobody cuts wood “roughly to the cm” when making a table like one does with 1/8” imperial measurements.
Or, you have the pretty darn finely-spaced mm, which is roughly equivalent to 1/32”. Yes, you can count your mm’s for 1/16ish coarseness but it’s a pain in the ass and fraught with error (for me).
And a LOT of 1/16”-spaced sort of measurements are used in woodworking (regardless of metric or imperial) because of how wood fits together and how your fingers feel differences in length.
And then there’s the way the actual gradations are etched out in the ruler. On the rulers I have, the imperial’s multi-length hashes are way, way, way easier to discern. See below of the mm and 1/2mm gradations on my Shinwas. My eyes blur at the latter.
In researching this post I ran across Starret’s mm rulers, which the American manufacturer significantly improved over what I’ve seen in Japan/Euro rulers. Their 1/2mm hashes are more like good FFP scope stadia…way easier to read (but still crappier than imperial):
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Shit nigga fractions always win.6.5-7.62 = -1.12
Clearly, 6.5 is less than 7.62.
This will never qualify for Legendary Thread Status because it is beyond lame!
Sirhr
Addendum:
(edit: for designing wood stuff! Maybe carpentry! Not machinists!)
Part of metric’s problem in the ruler/tape measure department, as shown in the improved Starret mm ruler, is in the user interface (doesn’t mitigate its math issues).
I’m retarded and thus greatly prefer Kenson tape measures that sometimes offer this “interface” (i.e. markings):
Contains 1/8” and 1/16” measurements and actually labels the 1/8” for my weak sauce brain. And adds decimals! And it reads well no matter if you use your left or right hand to draw out the tape. Awesome colors for readability.
Greatly reduces my errors, anyway.
I wish they could put in small labels for the 1/16”. Maybe move the decimals to the back and the 1/16” labels opposite of the 1/8” so only one side is more smushed.
Hopefully this as added some small value to this fucking stupid thread lol
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How the fuck do carpenters and cabinet makers all over Europe and Asia ever get anything done?
It's a fact that the world's best joinery is done by the Danish and the Japanese.
(edit: for designing wood stuff! Maybe carpentry! Not machinists!)
Hey man, more power to them. Man has made amazing stuff before imperial, metric, or even before tape measures and rulers by using things like dividers.
For example…
Some men use MOA to shoot.
Other, superior men use MRAD. lol
Still other (confusing) men use MIL reticles with MOA turrets.
Some fraction of those three groups hit what they aim at. But some have an easier time of it.
See:
Book
By Hand & Eye
“By Hand & Eye” helps you become a better furniture designer by showing how much of the world is governed by simple proportions – then teaching you to apply these proportions to furniture design with the help of one ancient but mighty tool: dividers. Authors George R. Walker and Jim Tolpin...
lostartpress.com Video of above
Animations (very short) of how the ancients designed things with simple tools like dividers (scroll to bottom)
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