I am looking to rebarrel one of my rifles to use for long range shooting. I have a short action GAP receiver. What caliber is the most popular these days that will fit the short action and give better performance at 1000+ yards.
Thanks
Thanks
- Thread starter Ronald
- Start date
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
6.5x47 Lapua
260rem
6.5 creedmore
those are top three by a mile
6.5x47 Lapua
260rem
6.5 creedmore
those are top three by a mile
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
7 WSM
7 WSM
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: burneyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7 WSM </div></div>
I agree as long as you have the correct bolt face to support the WSM cartridge.
The 300 WSM is a good candidate as well. I run the 208 A-max at 2950 fps and it's a freight train.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: burneyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7 WSM </div></div>
I agree as long as you have the correct bolt face to support the WSM cartridge.
The 300 WSM is a good candidate as well. I run the 208 A-max at 2950 fps and it's a freight train.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
7wsm 180 Berger's
7saum
7wsm 180 Berger's
7saum
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I am hearing a lot of good things about the 7WSMs. Do you guys know how many 7WSM rounds will fit in 10rd AICS short magazine? What OAL are you loading with the Berger 180grVLDs? and what kind of velocity?
I am hearing a lot of good things about the 7WSMs. Do you guys know how many 7WSM rounds will fit in 10rd AICS short magazine? What OAL are you loading with the Berger 180grVLDs? and what kind of velocity?
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
+1 for 7SAUM, similar performance to a WSM with less powder and better BB life. Accuracy also seems to be amazing.
+1 for 7SAUM, similar performance to a WSM with less powder and better BB life. Accuracy also seems to be amazing.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
The short magnums are about the biggest case that will fit in a short action, and the 7mm has about the best ballistics for the short magnums. You can obviously go smaller if you want a challenge. I've shot a 22 Hornet at 1000 several times.
The short magnums are about the biggest case that will fit in a short action, and the 7mm has about the best ballistics for the short magnums. You can obviously go smaller if you want a challenge. I've shot a 22 Hornet at 1000 several times.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Oh, and on the magazines.... look into the alpha magazines. They allow a longer cartridge length and they have a 7-round and a 10-round version that are made to work with the WSM so they don't need modification.
Oh, and on the magazines.... look into the alpha magazines. They allow a longer cartridge length and they have a 7-round and a 10-round version that are made to work with the WSM so they don't need modification.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I have a GAP built SA Rem700 chambered in 7WSM and am getting 2975fps with Berger 180's Have no problem hitting steel at 1650yds the farthest target we have at my range at 29Palms club.
I have a GAP built SA Rem700 chambered in 7WSM and am getting 2975fps with Berger 180's Have no problem hitting steel at 1650yds the farthest target we have at my range at 29Palms club.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I went with a 7mm WSM because of your same reasoning and am really looking forward to shooting some steel targets, and caribou hunting this spring.
I went with a 7mm WSM because of your same reasoning and am really looking forward to shooting some steel targets, and caribou hunting this spring.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Pinzmann, I saw on your post that on your club range in 29 Palms you have steel targets set out to 1600Yards? Is this range open to the public? Can I join the club? I live in So Cal and there is no place to shoot long range unless you go to BLM in the desert, but that's a pain to set your steel.
Thanks
Ron
Pinzmann, I saw on your post that on your club range in 29 Palms you have steel targets set out to 1600Yards? Is this range open to the public? Can I join the club? I live in So Cal and there is no place to shoot long range unless you go to BLM in the desert, but that's a pain to set your steel.
Thanks
Ron
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
What bolt face?
What bolt face?
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
We have a 1000yd range at Desert Markman Gun Club in Palmdale, also have 1000yd matches bi-monthly. Also have 2- 7mmSaum on short actions and 1 long action 7mmSaum
We have a 1000yd range at Desert Markman Gun Club in Palmdale, also have 1000yd matches bi-monthly. Also have 2- 7mmSaum on short actions and 1 long action 7mmSaum
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I'd love to build a 7mm Fatso wild cat if the brass wasn't such a PITA to make.
Either a .338 LM or NM shortened to SA length and necked to 7mm. Sort like an extra fat 7mm WSM.
I'd love to build a 7mm Fatso wild cat if the brass wasn't such a PITA to make.
Either a .338 LM or NM shortened to SA length and necked to 7mm. Sort like an extra fat 7mm WSM.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
7mmWSM-162Amax at 3100-3200fps
260AI-140Amax or Berger 140VLD at 2900fps
The 260AI is a nice shooter, but loses performance to the 7WSM.
7mmWSM-162Amax at 3100-3200fps
260AI-140Amax or Berger 140VLD at 2900fps
The 260AI is a nice shooter, but loses performance to the 7WSM.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
7mm WSM is what I'm running in Alpha mags in a Surgeon RSR short-action. I'm getting the 180gr bergers to 2950fps without problems or compressed loads. I wouldn't want to run them much faster myself.
7mm WSM is what I'm running in Alpha mags in a Surgeon RSR short-action. I'm getting the 180gr bergers to 2950fps without problems or compressed loads. I wouldn't want to run them much faster myself.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to build a 7mm Fatso wild cat if the brass wasn't such a PITA to make.
Either a .338 LM or NM shortened to SA length and necked to 7mm. Sort like an extra fat 7mm WSM. </div></div>
Yip your right about there being alot of work forming 7mm Fatso brass, my version of this wildcat has worked well 180gr at 3100fps. If you use lapua brass shortened and necked down you really have to thin the brass first or its just to thick to work with after just a couple of firings.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to build a 7mm Fatso wild cat if the brass wasn't such a PITA to make.
Either a .338 LM or NM shortened to SA length and necked to 7mm. Sort like an extra fat 7mm WSM. </div></div>
Yip your right about there being alot of work forming 7mm Fatso brass, my version of this wildcat has worked well 180gr at 3100fps. If you use lapua brass shortened and necked down you really have to thin the brass first or its just to thick to work with after just a couple of firings.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
For you guys that are running the 7WSM or 7Saum in the short action with the Bergers 180vlds. What over all lenght are you loading your rounds to? My concern is that you're limited to 2.950" in the short AICS or Alpha magazines. Does these calibers burn your throat pretty quick (Like a 243Win or similar cartridge) Like how many rounds do you expect to get out of a new barrel with 7WSM? Also what barrel lenghts are you guys running to get 2950-3000fps with the 180vlds?
Thanks
For you guys that are running the 7WSM or 7Saum in the short action with the Bergers 180vlds. What over all lenght are you loading your rounds to? My concern is that you're limited to 2.950" in the short AICS or Alpha magazines. Does these calibers burn your throat pretty quick (Like a 243Win or similar cartridge) Like how many rounds do you expect to get out of a new barrel with 7WSM? Also what barrel lenghts are you guys running to get 2950-3000fps with the 180vlds?
Thanks
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
tag
tag
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
270 WSM+175gr Matrix VLD=3,000fps .700 BC
270 WSM+175gr Matrix VLD=3,000fps .700 BC
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I am thinking 7WSM with the 180 JLK bullets. Its not perfect because you cant really seat the bullets out super far but it would work. And you could single load with great results.
I am thinking 7WSM with the 180 JLK bullets. Its not perfect because you cant really seat the bullets out super far but it would work. And you could single load with great results.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking 7WSM with the 180 JLK bullets. Its not perfect because you cant really seat the bullets out super far but it would work. And you could single load with great results. </div></div>
Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.
THe Berger's have tested to have higher BC's for the same weight, though they are very very close.
Better yet are the 189 Cauteruccio and 190 Matrix, especially if you have a tipping die to close up the jet intake of a meplat on the nose of the Matrix.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking 7WSM with the 180 JLK bullets. Its not perfect because you cant really seat the bullets out super far but it would work. And you could single load with great results. </div></div>
Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.
THe Berger's have tested to have higher BC's for the same weight, though they are very very close.
Better yet are the 189 Cauteruccio and 190 Matrix, especially if you have a tipping die to close up the jet intake of a meplat on the nose of the Matrix.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
+1 on the Cauterucio 189s. they shoot very well and are higher BC in all my rifles than the Berger 180 Hybreds.
I have not shot the 190 Matrix extensively, but they tested equal to the 180 Berger Hybreds (according to Bryan Litz - Berger's Chief Ballastician), but costing at least $4 to $5 less expensive per hundred.
Jeffvn
+1 on the Cauterucio 189s. they shoot very well and are higher BC in all my rifles than the Berger 180 Hybreds.
I have not shot the 190 Matrix extensively, but they tested equal to the 180 Berger Hybreds (according to Bryan Litz - Berger's Chief Ballastician), but costing at least $4 to $5 less expensive per hundred.
Jeffvn
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
The 7's a good choice there are at least 6 high bc bullet choices for it.
Still the 270 WSM with the 175gr will beat them all .....i think
The 7's a good choice there are at least 6 high bc bullet choices for it.
Still the 270 WSM with the 175gr will beat them all
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT </div></div>
Yep, we have data that Litz published in both editions of his book as well as on his website.
They shoot GREAT in my rifles and they're an excellent bullet overall, but if someone is going to spec a build based on the idea that they're going to a 180gr pill with a .735BC from JLK that's not a reality.
The BC's listed on JLK's website are static calculations, not tested G1's.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT </div></div>
Yep, we have data that Litz published in both editions of his book as well as on his website.
They shoot GREAT in my rifles and they're an excellent bullet overall, but if someone is going to spec a build based on the idea that they're going to a 180gr pill with a .735BC from JLK that's not a reality.
The BC's listed on JLK's website are static calculations, not tested G1's.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
From what I understand ( and its not a bunch ) the JLK bullets have roughly the same BC as the berger VLD because they are made pretty much under the same design. And thus should be very close. I also dont think a Berger bullet guy will say another bullet that is actually cheaper kicks the crap out of his bullet. That doesnt make sense to me either!!
From what I understand ( and its not a bunch ) the JLK bullets have roughly the same BC as the berger VLD because they are made pretty much under the same design. And thus should be very close. I also dont think a Berger bullet guy will say another bullet that is actually cheaper kicks the crap out of his bullet. That doesnt make sense to me either!!
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not shot the 190 Matrix extensively, but they tested equal to the 180 Berger Hybreds (according to Beyan Litz - Berger's Chief Ballastician), but costing at least $4 to $5 less expensive per hundred.
Jeffvn
</div></div>
Jeff,
Where are you buying the Matrix from? My research shows that they're higher in price, and come from Canada, so I'd expect the shipping to be higher.
It's pretty tough to beat 3rdgss's $4.95 flat rate shipping.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not shot the 190 Matrix extensively, but they tested equal to the 180 Berger Hybreds (according to Beyan Litz - Berger's Chief Ballastician), but costing at least $4 to $5 less expensive per hundred.
Jeffvn
</div></div>
Jeff,
Where are you buying the Matrix from? My research shows that they're higher in price, and come from Canada, so I'd expect the shipping to be higher.
It's pretty tough to beat 3rdgss's $4.95 flat rate shipping.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT </div></div>
Yep, we have <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">data that Litz published</span> </span>in both editions of his book as well as on his website.
They shoot GREAT in my rifles and they're an excellent bullet overall, but if someone is going to spec a build based on the idea that they're going to a 180gr pill with a .735BC from JLK that's not a reality.
The BC's listed on JLK's website are static calculations, not tested G1's.
</div></div>
I also have that book, I was unaware they tested JLK's bullet. I will have to check that out again tonight. And even if it is not that high, it is $0.06 cheaper per bullet. That is $60 worth of savings per 1k bullets. That by itself is enough to get them in my book.
Are the BC's of the JLK's not as high as published? I would be very very surprised if they were, but I dont know. Thats why I asked if you had any hard data.
And a problem with a company testing their own bullet, which was just proven with the 338 cal bullet test, is companies tend to favor on the side of positive results with their data. And that is the reason i am still VERY WARY of bergers test data. Only the sierras tested close to actual published data. VERY significant if you ask me.
Regards,
DT
Regards,
DT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Don't believe the BC that JLK's publishing.</span>
</div></div>
Would you care to share any data that points otherwise?
After the 300 gr BC tests recently completed, I am very wary of believing anything that berger publishes either.
Not hating on your opinion, just wonder if you actually have any hard data or you dont like the way the JLK's shoot in your rifle?
I am quite excited about the JLK's, but if its negligable to the Berger, I would rather go with the bullet I could hunt with as well.
Thanks,
DT </div></div>
Yep, we have <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">data that Litz published</span> </span>in both editions of his book as well as on his website.
They shoot GREAT in my rifles and they're an excellent bullet overall, but if someone is going to spec a build based on the idea that they're going to a 180gr pill with a .735BC from JLK that's not a reality.
The BC's listed on JLK's website are static calculations, not tested G1's.
</div></div>
I also have that book, I was unaware they tested JLK's bullet. I will have to check that out again tonight. And even if it is not that high, it is $0.06 cheaper per bullet. That is $60 worth of savings per 1k bullets. That by itself is enough to get them in my book.
Are the BC's of the JLK's not as high as published? I would be very very surprised if they were, but I dont know. Thats why I asked if you had any hard data.
And a problem with a company testing their own bullet, which was just proven with the 338 cal bullet test, is companies tend to favor on the side of positive results with their data. And that is the reason i am still VERY WARY of bergers test data. Only the sierras tested close to actual published data. VERY significant if you ask me.
Regards,
DT
Regards,
DT
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I am also of the opinion that one should start with a bullet you want to shoot, then pick the cartridge that will do that best for you. To not pick the highest BC bullet available is irrational to me if the only thing you care about it down range performance.
To NOT spec a build to shoot wahtever pill you choose is foolish to me.
The problem is getting good data to start with and you are prob right, .7xx is prob unrealisitc.
Regards,
DT
I am also of the opinion that one should start with a bullet you want to shoot, then pick the cartridge that will do that best for you. To not pick the highest BC bullet available is irrational to me if the only thing you care about it down range performance.
To NOT spec a build to shoot wahtever pill you choose is foolish to me.
The problem is getting good data to start with and you are prob right, .7xx is prob unrealisitc.
Regards,
DT
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
We have not run any 7mm bullets in such a test.
I am not going to comment on the disparity in the data beyond what I said in the previous thread on 338 testing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To not pick the highest BC bullet available is irrational to me if the only thing you care about it down range performance</div></div>
This only works on the assumption that you can actually use that bullet in the application. From a short action ultra mag or short mag case the 180-190 class 7mm bullets are very very difficult to fit in a short action length.
For match use this is a problem, and hence why a large majority of the shooters that I see with WSM or SAUM 7mm rifles they do 1 of 2 things:
1) Long action, throated for about 3.1-3.2" OAL with "you name it" 180gr-190gr weight class bullets
2) Short action, throated for just enough wiggle in the magazines for reliable feeding, somewhere between 2.88-2.95" long and then using 162 Amax, 175 SMK, 162 BHTP
FOr the sake of downrange performance let's look at untipped 175 SMK and 180 Berger VLD
The published Litz data will be used for this comparison as it's the best we have and from my experience with it on these bullets it is very very very close.
My rifle (at 0 DA) shooting the 175 SMK (G1 BC 0.639) at 2900fps and the 180 BLD (G1 BC 0.659) at 2900fps calculates to less than 6" of difference in total drop at 1000yd, appx 1.7-2% and the wind comparison is about 1.5-1.7" in favor of the Berger. Again, about 2.5% difference.
Both bullets shoot very well in my rifles, as do the JLK's that I tested.
I have about 2000 more Bergers sitting on my floor as well as 1500 more of the 175 SMK's.
I have none of the JLK's left in 7mm. The simple fact is that I have had trouble getting them reliably and while there are some short term shortages from the others, the JLK's are more difficult to get than either of the Sierra or Berger.
Long story short is this:
If you can't get the bullet into the rifle's magazine to function as necessary for field competition use, it doesn't matter if the BC is 2% higher or not.
The JLK 180 and the Berger 180 have similar issues getting into a Short Action whereas the Amax, BTHP Match and SMK do not.
Since the discussion is based upon what is the best thing for a short action and we've invariably come back to 7mm discussions that is my advice.
Don't believe the published BC's from JLK, they are good bullets but they don't fit well in the magazine. Much the same as the Berger 180's. If the OP would like to run it in a SA rifle then I think that a SAUM case is a better idea and set it up to run with the 162's from Hornady and/or the 175-180 SMK's.
The Short Action is driving the advice here more than anything else.
We have not run any 7mm bullets in such a test.
I am not going to comment on the disparity in the data beyond what I said in the previous thread on 338 testing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To not pick the highest BC bullet available is irrational to me if the only thing you care about it down range performance</div></div>
This only works on the assumption that you can actually use that bullet in the application. From a short action ultra mag or short mag case the 180-190 class 7mm bullets are very very difficult to fit in a short action length.
For match use this is a problem, and hence why a large majority of the shooters that I see with WSM or SAUM 7mm rifles they do 1 of 2 things:
1) Long action, throated for about 3.1-3.2" OAL with "you name it" 180gr-190gr weight class bullets
2) Short action, throated for just enough wiggle in the magazines for reliable feeding, somewhere between 2.88-2.95" long and then using 162 Amax, 175 SMK, 162 BHTP
FOr the sake of downrange performance let's look at untipped 175 SMK and 180 Berger VLD
The published Litz data will be used for this comparison as it's the best we have and from my experience with it on these bullets it is very very very close.
My rifle (at 0 DA) shooting the 175 SMK (G1 BC 0.639) at 2900fps and the 180 BLD (G1 BC 0.659) at 2900fps calculates to less than 6" of difference in total drop at 1000yd, appx 1.7-2% and the wind comparison is about 1.5-1.7" in favor of the Berger. Again, about 2.5% difference.
Both bullets shoot very well in my rifles, as do the JLK's that I tested.
I have about 2000 more Bergers sitting on my floor as well as 1500 more of the 175 SMK's.
I have none of the JLK's left in 7mm. The simple fact is that I have had trouble getting them reliably and while there are some short term shortages from the others, the JLK's are more difficult to get than either of the Sierra or Berger.
Long story short is this:
If you can't get the bullet into the rifle's magazine to function as necessary for field competition use, it doesn't matter if the BC is 2% higher or not.
The JLK 180 and the Berger 180 have similar issues getting into a Short Action whereas the Amax, BTHP Match and SMK do not.
Since the discussion is based upon what is the best thing for a short action and we've invariably come back to 7mm discussions that is my advice.
Don't believe the published BC's from JLK, they are good bullets but they don't fit well in the magazine. Much the same as the Berger 180's. If the OP would like to run it in a SA rifle then I think that a SAUM case is a better idea and set it up to run with the 162's from Hornady and/or the 175-180 SMK's.
The Short Action is driving the advice here more than anything else.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Bohem thanks for your input. That was my whole point when I started this thread. What caliber would work in the short action magazines. I think the 7mm-Saum with the 175SMK will be a good choice. I have a couple of questions. How many rounds will a 7mm-Saum barrel last? Also can a gunsmith machine the standard bolt face of a short action bolt to acomodate for the magnum cartridge? Or you have to buy a new bolt with the magnum bolt face.
Bohem thanks for your input. That was my whole point when I started this thread. What caliber would work in the short action magazines. I think the 7mm-Saum with the 175SMK will be a good choice. I have a couple of questions. How many rounds will a 7mm-Saum barrel last? Also can a gunsmith machine the standard bolt face of a short action bolt to acomodate for the magnum cartridge? Or you have to buy a new bolt with the magnum bolt face.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Ron,
I got 1950 rounds out my first saum barrel. The first 900 were with the Berger 175 xld's. When the throat got eroded badly enough I switched to the 180 hybrid. At 1800rds I was freeboring, should have quit there but needed it for another 3 weeks.
I then had 2&1/2 inches cut off and rechambered it, I'm at 2350 rds right now and it is shooting better than ever. I'm not getting the copper fouling at the muzzle as the barrel wears. I'm shooting the hybrids still.
My second saum is nitrided, only have 250rds through it. But a friend has the same, nitrided, 3000+ through it and his throat looks better than mine did at 900rds. I'm thinking this nitiding works.
Hope this helps.
As for bolt face, yes it can be cut out. Myself I would just buy a mag bolt from PT&G, in case you ever want to go back.
Both my actions are short target acions, single feed. They work for me, I'm not shooting comps, but they could be used in a pinch.
Miles
Ron,
I got 1950 rounds out my first saum barrel. The first 900 were with the Berger 175 xld's. When the throat got eroded badly enough I switched to the 180 hybrid. At 1800rds I was freeboring, should have quit there but needed it for another 3 weeks.
I then had 2&1/2 inches cut off and rechambered it, I'm at 2350 rds right now and it is shooting better than ever. I'm not getting the copper fouling at the muzzle as the barrel wears. I'm shooting the hybrids still.
My second saum is nitrided, only have 250rds through it. But a friend has the same, nitrided, 3000+ through it and his throat looks better than mine did at 900rds. I'm thinking this nitiding works.
Hope this helps.
As for bolt face, yes it can be cut out. Myself I would just buy a mag bolt from PT&G, in case you ever want to go back.
Both my actions are short target acions, single feed. They work for me, I'm not shooting comps, but they could be used in a pinch.
Miles
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
270 WSM, Seekins DBM, 175gr Matrix 3,014fps .700bc
270 WSM, Seekins DBM, 175gr Matrix 3,014fps .700bc
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
+1 on the Nitride
+1 on the Nitride
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
milo-2 who does good nitride and what is the process to have your barrell nitride properly? You get a new unfired barrel that is chambered, threaded and then send it to get nitride finish on the inside?
What are the pros and cons of Nitride?
Thanks
milo-2 who does good nitride and what is the process to have your barrell nitride properly? You get a new unfired barrel that is chambered, threaded and then send it to get nitride finish on the inside?
What are the pros and cons of Nitride?
Thanks
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Ron,
Both my barrels were sent to MMI True Tec. I like their work.
There was a thread about nitriding on here a couple months back.
The barrel has to be chambered for sure, not certain about the muzzle end. Something about needing carbide tools to cut into it after it is done.
I honestly don't see any cons.
I think it adds barrel life, increased velocity and the dark black, smooth finish is nice. The black finish would look so neat if you sent the barrel to someone after nitiding, to spiral flute it.
Granted I would only nitride a barrel that I'm going to hammer hard, I mean shoot, shoot, and shoot.
You can nitride a barrel that's been shot, but if it is too far gone it would be of no use.
Hope this helps.
www.trutecind.com
Ron,
Both my barrels were sent to MMI True Tec. I like their work.
There was a thread about nitriding on here a couple months back.
The barrel has to be chambered for sure, not certain about the muzzle end. Something about needing carbide tools to cut into it after it is done.
I honestly don't see any cons.
I think it adds barrel life, increased velocity and the dark black, smooth finish is nice. The black finish would look so neat if you sent the barrel to someone after nitiding, to spiral flute it.
Granted I would only nitride a barrel that I'm going to hammer hard, I mean shoot, shoot, and shoot.
You can nitride a barrel that's been shot, but if it is too far gone it would be of no use.
Hope this helps.
www.trutecind.com
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
I like 7mm bullets if only Hornady made more than one weight Amax.
Can somebody clarify what a "long action 7mmSaum" is? Do you use the long action stock/magazine and a short action chambered barrel?
I like 7mm bullets if only Hornady made more than one weight Amax.
Can somebody clarify what a "long action 7mmSaum" is? Do you use the long action stock/magazine and a short action chambered barrel?
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Playerz1337</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can somebody clarify what a "long action 7mmSaum" is? Do you use the long action stock/magazine and a short action chambered barrel? </div></div>
Some people suggest, if you want to run 180gr vld style bullets, and seat them in or close to your lands build on a long action if you want your rig magazine fed.
If you're going to shoot the 162 amax, a short action "might" work being mag fed. I'm not sure.
Single feed it doesn't matter.
Building a saum and not utilizing the heavier, high BC vld or variant style bullet is a waste in my opinion.
Your chambered barrel really doesn't care what length action it is screwed into. It is a matter of feeding it.
I hope I helped
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Playerz1337</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can somebody clarify what a "long action 7mmSaum" is? Do you use the long action stock/magazine and a short action chambered barrel? </div></div>
Some people suggest, if you want to run 180gr vld style bullets, and seat them in or close to your lands build on a long action if you want your rig magazine fed.
If you're going to shoot the 162 amax, a short action "might" work being mag fed. I'm not sure.
Single feed it doesn't matter.
Building a saum and not utilizing the heavier, high BC vld or variant style bullet is a waste in my opinion.
Your chambered barrel really doesn't care what length action it is screwed into. It is a matter of feeding it.
I hope I helped
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
A long action 7 Saum is just a long action mag bolt face rifle chambered in 7 Saum.
Everything including the action, stock, bottom metal, etc is going to be long action
A long action 7 Saum is just a long action mag bolt face rifle chambered in 7 Saum.
Everything including the action, stock, bottom metal, etc is going to be long action
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 WSM+175gr Matrix VLD=3,000fps .700 BC </div></div>
What is your load for the 270 WSM? I just got some Matrix 175's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 WSM+175gr Matrix VLD=3,000fps .700 BC </div></div>
What is your load for the 270 WSM? I just got some Matrix 175's
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Not my load but knowing the guy who gave it to me he wouldn't mind.
Norma cases, Fed 215 Mag, 63gr Retumbo (1gr under max), jumping .020" in a chamber set up with a .180" freebore reamer. 27.5" 10 twist barrel. 3,014 fps ES of 10fps
Not my load but knowing the guy who gave it to me he wouldn't mind.
Norma cases, Fed 215 Mag, 63gr Retumbo (1gr under max), jumping .020" in a chamber set up with a .180" freebore reamer. 27.5" 10 twist barrel. 3,014 fps ES of 10fps
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This only works on the assumption that you can actually use that bullet in the application. From a short action ultra mag or short mag case the 180-190 class 7mm bullets are very very difficult to fit in a short action length.
.
.
.
The Short Action is driving the advice here more than anything else. </div></div>
Thats kind of my point (I know I saying what you already said); you waste the capabilities of the 7mm bullets in a short action. Which leads back to picking the bullet you want to shoot, pick the velocity you want to shoot it, then pick the champering that can attain those wishes. Doing anything else will just result in buying more rifles cause the one you just built does not do exactly what you wanted...which is not always a bad thing
My answer for ELR in S/A would probably be 260AI w/140 class bullets or 7-08 AI shooting the 160 gr class, both with the AW mag well cut for longer loading (considering everything including barrel life, price per round, recoil, fun, etc etc.)
Going Long action is not an all bad thing (cant think of any bad things really other than burning more powder) and really opens up the discussion for long range rounds.
Regards,
DT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This only works on the assumption that you can actually use that bullet in the application. From a short action ultra mag or short mag case the 180-190 class 7mm bullets are very very difficult to fit in a short action length.
.
.
.
The Short Action is driving the advice here more than anything else. </div></div>
Thats kind of my point (I know I saying what you already said); you waste the capabilities of the 7mm bullets in a short action. Which leads back to picking the bullet you want to shoot, pick the velocity you want to shoot it, then pick the champering that can attain those wishes. Doing anything else will just result in buying more rifles cause the one you just built does not do exactly what you wanted...which is not always a bad thing
My answer for ELR in S/A would probably be 260AI w/140 class bullets or 7-08 AI shooting the 160 gr class, both with the AW mag well cut for longer loading (considering everything including barrel life, price per round, recoil, fun, etc etc.)
Going Long action is not an all bad thing (cant think of any bad things really other than burning more powder) and really opens up the discussion for long range rounds.
Regards,
DT
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 WSM, Seekins DBM, 175gr Matrix 3,014fps .700bc
</div></div>
do you have that rifle up and running yet? I'd be interested in seeing how well it shoots at long range.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 WSM, Seekins DBM, 175gr Matrix 3,014fps .700bc
do you have that rifle up and running yet? I'd be interested in seeing how well it shoots at long range.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
Per their website "Alpha Type 3 magazine is constructed without a liner and has an internal OAL of 2.985".
I'm using them in a short action, loading Berger 180grs VLD touching lands with over 66gr of powder and have room to spar with magazine feeding if my throat erodes. Looking at the Berger website, the ideal bullet sitting for their VLDs is usually about 0.03-0.04" OFF the lands, so with this I'm not worried with my nitrided barrel. I also don't think I need to seat the bullets out more to allow more powder capacity, 2950fps is plenty enough for me.
Call me simple, but 7mm WSM is "Winchester SHORT magnum" designed for the short action after all. You don't need a long action.
Per their website "Alpha Type 3 magazine is constructed without a liner and has an internal OAL of 2.985".
I'm using them in a short action, loading Berger 180grs VLD touching lands with over 66gr of powder and have room to spar with magazine feeding if my throat erodes. Looking at the Berger website, the ideal bullet sitting for their VLDs is usually about 0.03-0.04" OFF the lands, so with this I'm not worried with my nitrided barrel. I also don't think I need to seat the bullets out more to allow more powder capacity, 2950fps is plenty enough for me.
Call me simple, but 7mm WSM is "Winchester SHORT magnum" designed for the short action after all. You don't need a long action.
Re: What is the best caliber for ELR in aSHORT ACTION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Srussede</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anyone pushed the 115dtac's out of a 243 past 1k with much success </div></div>I have shot them to 1300 and they were iffy. LIke 3 or 4 MOA iffy. Over 1300 they fell apart.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Srussede</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anyone pushed the 115dtac's out of a 243 past 1k with much success </div></div>I have shot them to 1300 and they were iffy. LIke 3 or 4 MOA iffy. Over 1300 they fell apart.
