Where Do We Go From Here?

Shayne Ward

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So reading between the lines I see it will not be 700 footprint 😢😢😢
I could be wrong here but I feel that is a huge draw to this type of rifle… Especially for the Nrl/ PRS crowd. I shoot a Vudoo now and it’s in the exact chassis my CF is in. Same trigger even. Unless there is reasoning beyond my knowledge (very possible) I think this hurts us more than helps. Nobody likes the same style of stock/chassis as the next guy. It will be years before manufacturers catch on and make available options. Shit they can’t keep up now and that is something I have never understood… again my 2 cents
 
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RAVAGE88

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    Look up.
    And they dropped the whole AR line after what 2 years! Not a mention in any of their literature now. Bunch of woke FUDs.

    Did you have direct input on the innovative features added to the proof MSR barrel??

    Keyed steel adj. gas block retained with a nut threaded on the barrel and a straight gas tube with Ferrel compression fitting. Elegant, brilliant, and long overdue updates.
    Very sad to see this die with the MSR line. Do you own the IP on this by chance?View attachment 7976226View attachment 7976232View attachment 7976233
    Correct, they got scared and refused to fight for the 2A community.

    All of the MSR barrel design convention was driven by me and bringing Proof in-house at Savage was a true coup. I took my personal hydraulic tubing tool to Savage and made the prototype parts. However, I did a similar design convention for someone else prior to the Savage system, so doing something along those lines shouldn’t be a problem.

    MB
     
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    RAVAGE88

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    Look up.
    So reading between the lines I see it will not be 700 footprint 😢😢😢
    I could be wrong here but I feel that is a huge draw to this type of rifle… Especially for the Nrl/ PRS crowd. I shoot a Vudoo now and it’s in the exact chassis my CF is in. Same trigger even. Unless there is reasoning beyond my knowledge (very possible) I think this hurts us more than helps. Nobody likes the same style of stock/chassis as the next guy. It will be years before manufacturers catch on and make available options. Shit they can’t keep up now and that is something I have never understood… again my 2 cents
    The mid-scale is not the 700 footprint but the true-to-scale is a 700 footprint. I’m doing more than one action….

    MB
     

    accurate obsession

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    The mid-scale is not the 700 footprint but the true-to-scale is a 700 footprint. I’m doing more than one action….

    MB
    They may call me a "poor" on the hide but the desire to multi-purpose my expensive chassis, stocks, triggers, etc. in other senerios is a huge plus.
    I know the variations and tolerance stack up's of the many DBM's was kind of a fly in the ointment with respect to the magazines but to have the modularity was/is still appealing, now add easy change barrels to the mix.
     

    RAVAGE88

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    If multiple actions are in the works, would one of them happen to be a semi-auto?
    I’ve considered a semi-auto, but no current plans. I generally steer folks to Volquartsen and I also have a Frankenbuild using a combo of VQ and Kidd parts that has slayed many gophers.

    MB
     
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    RAVAGE88

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    Look up.
    I know the variations and tolerance stack up's of the many DBM's was kind of a fly in the ointment with respect to the magazines but to have the modularity was/is still appealing, now add easy change barrels to the mix.
    Yep, I’ve dealt with this in the new AICS style magazines….

    MB
     
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    chutinlead

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    I feel like the rotary style mags were one of the few things holding back the B22 Precision I started with before moving to a Vudoo. The bolt would gouge the next bullet in the rotary mag due to what I would guess is no give in the vertical direction.
     

    1813Benny

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    ....well, it's almost lunch time here on in the eastern US. Just transferred the 5th day of lunch money into the "upcoming purchase" jar. 😂

    Munching on some crackers and reading the updates and thoughts from MB and everyone else. Also making some notes for future discussions.....
     

    RAVAGE88

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    ....well, it's almost lunch time here on in the eastern US. Just transferred the 5th day of lunch money into the "upcoming purchase" jar. 😂

    Munching on some crackers and reading the updates and thoughts from MB and everyone else. Also making some notes for future discussions.....
    I’m currently on a Delta flight to Detroit thinking through a really cool conversation I had with @orkan just prior to boarding. The beneficiaries of that conversation is you guys, so let’s have a bit of fun….

    And just so you guys know, the transponder arrived from L3 and the airplane is no longer in an AOG condition, so my frequent future flights to SC will not be commercial.

    MB
     
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    J_D

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    I would love to see a 22lr short throw specific action like the CZ 457 with pre-fits as an option. As long as Manners makes a stock for it, I'm sure I'd be in.
     
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    RAVAGE88

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    Look up.
    I would love to see a 22lr short throw specific action like the CZ 457 with pre-fits as an option. As long as Manners makes a stock for it, I'm sure I'd be in.
    Yep....the mid scale action will have a considerably more robust feel and "presence" than the CZ stuff, but I get exactly what you're saying.

    MB
     
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    J_D

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    My check book is ready..... Count me in as a beta tester too!
     
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    simpletoms

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    Without a single doubt, Dude.

    View attachment 7972151

    MB
    MB, just read through the four pages of this thread. I’ve been out of the loop the past year as well. Flying abroad, U.S. Army all expenses paid vacation style… Anyhow, it’s great to see you back posting in the rimfire section, and exciting to hear that you still have irons in the fire. I’m ready to see some data on fast twist, and I’m ready to do more shooting with my 1:9 lilja 457 at 300 yards (that‘s all I’ve got…). As always, can’t wait to see what you’re working on, and I appreciate the fact that you volunteer as much information as you do. Keep up the good work.

    To you flying piece. Very nice to see that you’ve acquired your SEL/MEL ticket. Like you I started in the rotary wing world. I’ve been flying for uncle sam since 95. UH-1’s, 64A’s, 64D’s, 60L’s and 60M’s. But in 2017 I went to the C12 fixed wing course. It was a game changer. I bough a 182 in October of 2017 and have never looked back. While I’ve done some amazing things with Army helicopters, flying my own plane has been every bit as challenging and rewarding. Should you ever find yourself in the central Kentucky area, hit me up. We have a few grass strips you might like.
    B22D03EC-D463-424D-B059-066CC3B8D6F3.jpeg
     

    Bd1

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    So, a topic to fuel a little thought/discussion....how important are pre-fit barrels on a rimfire? I have this area of the two new actions squared away and many of my Vudoo's have my own pre-fit barrels on them (yes, pre-fits with extractor cuts can be done for a Vudoo....remember, I hate cone breeches), but what advantages have you guys run across that would indicate it's the way to go now?

    MB
    It would let the end user easily change barrel to play with different twist rates like my cz 457. change headspace like the litja barrels for different ammo with a simple shim?
     
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    Frankr

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    So, a topic to fuel a little thought/discussion....how important are pre-fit barrels on a rimfire? I have this area of the two new actions squared away and many of my Vudoo's have my own pre-fit barrels on them (yes, pre-fits with extractor cuts can be done for a Vudoo....remember, I hate cone breeches), but what advantages have you guys run across that would indicate it's the way to go now?

    MB
    Just my 2 cents.

    Pre fit barrels are a big deal to someone like me. I have or have had a bunch of barrel for my CZ’s and 10/22’s.

    I swap them out based on what I’m doing and even swap calibers.

    17hmr, 17hm2, 22lr.

    Also switching lightweight short barrels for longer heavier bench barrels. Something to tinker and use for multiple purposes with one action. Also over time each guns purpose might change.

    I think it would be cool.
     

    RAVAGE88

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    Just my 2 cents.

    Pre fit barrels are a big deal to someone like me. I have or have had a bunch of barrel for my CZ’s and 10/22’s.

    I swap them out based on what I’m doing and even swap calibers.

    17hmr, 17hm2, 22lr.

    Also switching lightweight short barrels for longer heavier bench barrels. Something to tinker and use for multiple purposes with one action. Also over time each guns purpose might change.

    I think it would be cool.
    Good info, Dude, and thank you for the perspective. I was already down the road with both of the new actions on the pre-fits as I've taken advantage of the concept while using my favorite centerfire rifle. I used to be able to say it's my only centerfire rifle, but I have a Gunwerks now, but still haven't hunted with it. I like asking these types of questions because it invites participation from a community I've learned a lot from and largely, there's not a single gun company I've been involved with that didn't have some rube from a non-shooting industry plopped down as a CEO to make product decisions about something he knows nothing about and is too self involved to ask the people that use this stuff more than anyone. For a while, Remington was commanded by people from Toyota and now from Crosman....yep, the cheap airgun company.

    Anyway, for centerfire, I use my Accuracy International AT for everything. I removed the AT buttstock and installed the AX buttstock and generally, it lives through daily life with a 16.5" 308 barrel (I know, so "yesterday") and I take it to 1017 yards with ease. When I hunt with it, it's a 6.5 CM. I don't think I've ever been more "familiar" with a single firearm than I am with the AT and, I never miss with it and have never needed a follow up shot on an animal. My favorite story with this rifle is the taking of a Pronghorn in WY at 547 yards (mule deer below was 400).

    But the cool thing is, I have incredibly similar rimfire stories....the ones about, "how it all began." The discoveries, stretching the boundaries, the few people that were "there" and all the "hoopla." There was good and unfortunately, there was also bad. Along the way, much has evolved and stories have materialized through the efforts made to gather as shooters and let it all unroll naturally. As @orkan stated on the phone yesterday, and I agree, "it's been a quick 10 years" and I can say, based on these last number of years, there's no better time to set a better example.

    So, pre-fits it is....and so much more.

    Thanks to all of you for entertaining me on the pre-fit question. It validates a lot and I get to stop and do a sanity check to make sure I'm not going down some rabbit hole but mostly, it keeps me humble....keeps me from becoming what I've not liked about the board plopping down a guy that's there to take care of the board and not the end user. When it comes to such antics, I always have and always will go against the grain and what this discipline is leading to now, especially as of yesterday, will be pretty incredible.

    EBB5C9C9-94A5-452F-ABB0-C2865C63E239.jpeg


    MB
     

    RAVAGE88

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    MB, just read through the four pages of this thread. I’ve been out of the loop the past year as well. Flying abroad, U.S. Army all expenses paid vacation style… Anyhow, it’s great to see you back posting in the rimfire section, and exciting to hear that you still have irons in the fire. I’m ready to see some data on fast twist, and I’m ready to do more shooting with my 1:9 lilja 457 at 300 yards (that‘s all I’ve got…). As always, can’t wait to see what you’re working on, and I appreciate the fact that you volunteer as much information as you do. Keep up the good work.

    To you flying piece. Very nice to see that you’ve acquired your SEL/MEL ticket. Like you I started in the rotary wing world. I’ve been flying for uncle sam since 95. UH-1’s, 64A’s, 64D’s, 60L’s and 60M’s. But in 2017 I went to the C12 fixed wing course. It was a game changer. I bough a 182 in October of 2017 and have never looked back. While I’ve done some amazing things with Army helicopters, flying my own plane has been every bit as challenging and rewarding. Should you ever find yourself in the central Kentucky area, hit me up. We have a few grass strips you might like.View attachment 7976709
    Thanks Dude, this is one of my new all time favorite posts. I learned to hover in a 1959 UH-1 prior to moving into the Robbie's but the UH-1s hold a special place in my heart. Also, I do have a few things to accomplish in KY and will shoot you a PM.

    As far as the "what I'm working on" part, this one of a few pistol projects that you guys will be seeing more about in the coming months. It's a cool project with cool people and I get to fly the 6XT down to SC quite a lot.

    MB
     
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    JG26_Irish

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    My 52D is my second favorite rimfire rifle and I actually had it out the other day (not to the range, but to the lab because I needed to take the bolt apart).

    MB
    Mike,

    You told me that down in Somerset at a match a few years ago. The Old Winchester 52's and the old Anschutz 54 Super Match rifles from the late 40's thru Early 60's seemed to have some special essence that enabled them to shoot amazingly well even decades after their mfg. One of the tales I was told by one of my uncles who was a WWII US Army Air Corps armorer is that the barrel blanks were machined and then left out in the cold to go thru many freeze/thaw cycles (often for 4-5 years) to presumably help season them in effect better stabilize the grain of the steel so that when the bore was drilled and rifled and later when the barrel was shot and warmed, the alignment of the grain in the metal would not distort as much as an un-seasoned bbl. This is not the same seasoning that we do when we shoot a rimfire. Alas, this is all old wives tales and I cannot say what really made the difference. This was also done with engine blocks in the 30's and other metal machines.

    These days it is hard to make metal gun parts only to put them up in a rickhouse to age for years like good bourbon, lol. But, if we were to identify the good properties of the old ways and devise new ways to acquire or apply them to new Solidworks CAD machined modern firearms we could potentially take another step forward on the road to better rimfire performance.

    I find it funny how many things we share in common. I too am left handed but right eye dominant and thus was taught to shoot Right handed while still being blessed with the creative side as well. I too am an engineer by trade but in my case electrical. I took that route because I understood it less and wanted to learn. Am also a former pilot. learned to fly in college on little Cessna 150's and 172's but quickly graduated to doing aerobatics in Navy birds. Lots of fun. These days I am grounded but still shooting. Let me guess, I bet you also ride Motorcycles? I raced them for years dirt and road race and still chug around on an old HD.

    My Wish List -
    1. An American built 22lr rifle capable of winning national factory class BR matches. I hate watching CZ's and Tikka's dominate the sport after all the old Remington and Winchesters were banned. But that is a price point class. Limit is $1000. Mybe not sexy but a need. Same as sending our Olympians to compete using Euro-trash rifles. The challenge is to make a superior rifle at that price point. I think it would take some innovative thinking and techniques to pull it off.

    2. Apply new hard friction reducing coatings to moving parts like bolts to smooth the factory action. DLC (diamond like coating) or NP3 (a Nickle Teflon coating developed for the Northshore oil & gas industry) are two that come to mind. They are both tougher than ceracoat and would be very slick without need for oil as lube. These would be a nice application for auto-loaders as well.

    3. Dig deep into the material science of making metal rifle bbl's. Develop new or old ways of seasoning the metal blanks. Possibly devise a new method for crafting them that is more precise than any of the current methods (cut rifling, broached, hammer forged). What if... We bored and rifled the bore at the same time using a laser or electron discharge method so precise that it removed only one atom at a time, albeit very quickly to produce a perfect bore that is also mirror smooth right out of the mfg process? Explore new alloys or treatments that could enhance the process. Develop a new shape for the actual rifling that is less likely to drift in the wind. Polygonal, ratchet, rounded rifling, yada yada.

    4. Ammo. Since rimfire performance is so ammo dependent, why not re-invent the Federal Ultra-Match ammo that dominated in the 1990's. That was the old case with the dimple in the rear to control the amount and location of the primer material better and to enhance ignition by directing the sparks from the primer forward into the powder charge. It worked, and it ruled and then it disappeared. Russian Olymp ammo was similar and it is gone now too. Match grade 22lr ammo is all either British Eley or German/Scandanavian RWS and Lapua. Nobody else is in the game. Americans are very innovative people and our engineers are at least as good as the Brits and Germans. I know, I have worked with all of them. Let's put our minds together and develop the next level of high precision, mass produced 22lr ammo.

    John Boyd the father of the OODA Loop and modern maneuver warfare, would suggest that we de-construct the 22lr bullet and re-imagine it better. 1.) Better case using the Dimple primer as the default start point. Would something besides brass work better? 2.) Better primer possibly using new compounds. 3.) New powder that is designed to meter more precisely in the tiny amounts needed. Possibly a solid pellet instead of a powder? What if we combined the primer & powder into the same solid component all nestled at the rear of the case?, 4.) New bullet, shape, alloy, lube. Use a coating that is less temperature sensitive, etc. New shapes that have better BC.

    Rock On. I am available for consult by appointment... Irish
     

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    JG26_Irish

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    Mike,



    4. Ammo. Since rimfire performance is so ammo dependent, why not re-invent the Federal Ultra-Match ammo that dominated in the 1990's. That was the old case with the dimple in the rear to control the amount and location of the primer material better and to enhance ignition by directing the sparks from the primer forward into the powder charge. It worked, and it ruled and then it disappeared. Russian Olymp ammo was similar and it is gone now too. Match grade 22lr ammo is all either British Eley or German/Scandanavian RWS and Lapua. Nobody else is in the game. Americans are very innovative people and our engineers are at least as good as the Brits and Germans. I know, I have worked with all of them. Let's put our minds together and develop the next level of high precision, mass produced 22lr ammo.

    John Boyd the father of the OODA Loop and modern maneuver warfare, would suggest that we de-construct the 22lr bullet and re-imagine it better. 1.) Better case using the Dimple primer as the default start point. Would something besides brass work better? 2.) Better primer possibly using new compounds. 3.) New powder that is designed to meter more precisely in the tiny amounts needed. Possibly a solid pellet instead of a powder? What if we combined the primer & powder into the same solid component all nestled at the rear of the case?, 4.) New bullet, shape, alloy, lube. Use a coating that is less temperature sensitive, etc. New shapes that have better BC.

    Rock On. I am available for consult by appointment... Irish
    I get on a roll and cannot stop. Imagine a 22lr match ammo. The case is a simple tube. Crimped in the rear is a polymer or aluminum insert that contains both the primer and propellant as a solid component measured to the micro-gram. The propellant is not a powder but an injection molded solid and stays in place during shipment and use and will not rapidly degrade or change within a wide temperature window. The bullet is a new alloy. Must be match legal but much more accurately produced. i.e. powder metal 3D printed? Coated with a high-tech solid lube. Soft but slick and limited in the amount of residue in the bbl. Include a mini-boat tail at the rear to enhance the BC. Many of these are patentable ideas. I am not giving them away. But, do want to improve the sport thru innovation.
     

    obx22

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    I get on a roll and cannot stop. Imagine a 22lr match ammo. The case is a simple tube. Crimped in the rear is a polymer or aluminum insert that contains both the primer and propellant as a solid component measured to the micro-gram. The propellant is not a powder but an injection molded solid and stays in place during shipment and use and will not rapidly degrade or change within a wide temperature window. The bullet is a new alloy. Must be match legal but much more accurately produced. i.e. powder metal 3D printed? Coated with a high-tech solid lube. Soft but slick and limited in the amount of residue in the bbl. Include a mini-boat tail at the rear to enhance the BC. Many of these are patentable ideas. I am not giving them away. But, do want to improve the sport thru innovation.
    A buddy of mine is fond of the saying “there’s nothing new under the sun”, and historically speaking its close to true. Looking back at past proven designs that seemed to hold some magic which produced legendary results.
    Anyone here ever shoot a Kleinguenther K22? Phenomenal front lug action with great attention to detail and an unparalleled metal finish.
    The Anschutz 54 repeaters, as well as the Cooper 36 sporters are equally as good in their own way.
    I personally love the flat bottom action of the original Finnfires, and am surprised this hasn’t dominated designs since it’s release. So very many excellent, proven designs out there, and that’s just the successful ones we own and shoot! How many never got past a drawing due to lack of funds, interest, or drive? The cut-away views of the Bleiker always interested me cause it looked like an assembly rather than another 1 piece tubular receiver. The Winchester 52’s trigger release, which didn’t impart bolt tilt, but equal loading on the bolt lugs through the firing cycle. So many things that obviously work, but never seem as a whole, to find their way into one firearm.
    I’ve written at length, and read piles of thoughts on building the perfect beast, it will be interesting to see what the future holds…
     

    BuyDirt

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    Advantages? The exact same thing shooters have derived from their Vudoo and other 700 footprint actions, they can be configured by the user to suit the user’s whims.
    Ruger 10/22
    Ruger 77/22
    Anschutz 2007/2013
    Sako Finnfire
    Sako Quad
    Remington 504
    CZ 455 and 457
    Tikka T-1X
    they all have easily swappable barrels. What made them successful or fail? Timing and price point, but also initial performance.
    Clark and others swapped barrels on the 10/22 for Sportsman’s Team Challenge and spawned an industry of accuracy improvements to a simple design.
    The 77/22 had the promise of the same industry, but the timing was off as people discovered through bulletin boards that there were imports with custom grade accuracy for just a smidge over the price of a top grade barrel.
    Anschutz has been the Xerox of match rifles, the gun others compared to, but change for them happens slowly as they feed a world market, not just the USA.
    If they had offered a 2007/2013 with a magazine, I’d own one.
    The Sako P94S got a fast track in sales from the benchrest crowd, and Triggers/Stocks/Barrels quickly hit the market, but benchrest is a niche market, and the first design was both ahead of it’s time and had a relatively high starting price. The buy out by Beretta and fast dump and switch to the Quad (multiple cartridge/caliber), along with a further increase in pricing scaled this rifle away from many. (Edited to add: Had the original design P94S hit the market 2 years ago it would be king).
    The American offering in the clamping receiver type barrel mount- the Remington 504, in my opinion, was the rifle the internet and Bullitin Boards killed. I believe this was to be a flagship rimfire receiver design, with a variety of stocks and barrel configurations planned, but…..
    MSRP was a bit high, which the “Buy American” type would still swallow, until they were utterly stomped in accuracy by an import at half the price, that came with similar ergonomics. They tried to offer a heavier target/varmint version, but at an even higher price point, but it was too late and the damage was done. The internets actual shooters warning others away quickly killed that design in less than 5 years.
    CZ saw all that was happening, and their 452 series, a constantly evolving model hailing back to the BRNO mod 1, hit US shores like a tsunami, a perfect storm of low price, high quality, great accuracy, and bulletin boards such as ShootersTalk, RFC, and BenchrestCentral to spread the word that yes, here was a bolt gun with everything: Dual action screws, dual bolt lugs, dual extractors (a misnomer), floating barrel on some models, incredible stock shapes, smooth feeding from available 5 & 10 round magazines, and easily tunable triggers. Shooters didn’t just buy them, they collected them. Decent mid grade ammo was plentiful, and all was right with the world, except…..
    Limited aftermarket support! The bean counters saw that by modifying the design, deleting a bolt lug (hey, the Anschutz 64 which they were often compared to only had one!), and offering a swap barrel (hey, Sako did it), and they already had a platinum reputation with the 452, what could go wrong? They absorbed the mediocre accuracy complaints as growing pains, and hey, there was always drop in barrels….. but people wanted more, which spawned the 457. With tolerances tightened, and a PRS/NRL22/MARS type events popping up everywhere, another perfect storm.
    Tikka had been quietly growing a huge following with hunters cause hey, accuracy. When they released their rimfire, some dealers said “hey, it’s just another .22”, foolishly misjudging the market. The ammo crunch has impacted us all, but the “builder” in us has still helped a few aftermarket products to hit the public for the smallest Tikka.
    So in a somewhat verbose answer, yes, drop-in, kitchen table buildable accurate rimfires will always have a place.
    All this from an opinionated shooter 😉
    Pretty much this.

    Kitchen table replaceable barrels are a big deal to me. I’ve sold my machines and am now counting on things to be easily modded by me. I’m gun rich/cash poor at the moment. Hence part of the reason. I have also had bad experiences with ‘smiths taking wayyyyyyy longer than they promised with zero comms. I’m not a fan.
     
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    RAVAGE88

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    Awesome responses today fellas and @JG26_Irish, you’re an impressive Dude. I spent all day with the airplane and got it back in the hangar a bit ago, so I’ll respond in detail tomorrow morning.

    MB
     
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    RedDawn

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    John Boyd the father of the OODA Loop and modern maneuver warfare, would suggest that we de-construct the 22lr bullet and re-imagine it better.
    Irish you made quite a few good points and that quote stood out to me. Finding ways to season barrels with the right grooves that just sing a great harmonic song in the barrel along with deconstruct the bullet and re-invent it better just stands out me. Barrels that don’t care if it’s cold bore or warm with no shift on impact and ammo that doesn’t mind hot or cold with no ES and low SD seems to be the way to go for the rimfire game we love to play.
     

    JG26_Irish

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    Irish you made quite a few good points and that quote stood out to me. Finding ways to season barrels with the right grooves that just sing a great harmonic song in the barrel along with deconstruct the bullet and re-invent it better just stands out me. Barrels that don’t care if it’s cold bore or warm with no shift on impact and ammo that doesn’t mind hot or cold with no ES and low SD seems to be the way to go for the rimfire game we love to play.
    Definitely room for improvement. We spend thousands on the perfect rifle an scope only to load it with crap ammo that struggles to group 10 shots at 50y smaller than 12mm using a Blieker or 1moa more or less because the ammo mfg just uses what is available with the same process that was used 30y ago to make it. That being Eley Tennex and Lapua Midas+

    I know some of my ideas cannot pass the market price test, but many would if we use the new tools of design and mfg and produce at scale. Double Star has a factory in Winchester, KY near where I work. Maybe we could lease a space in the corner to make the best super match grade 22lr in the world? I already own a company called WARCo Engineering LLC. It is not active at the moment but I was planning to re-activate it in the new year anyway. We could start a mfg subsidiary to do the testing and R&D. I know a firm in Boston with powdered metal 3D printing ability. Maybe Olin or others would want to contribute propellant/primer.
     

    obx22

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    Definitely room for improvement. We spend thousands on the perfect rifle an scope only to load it with crap ammo that struggles to group 10 shots at 50y smaller than 12mm using a Blieker or 1moa more or less because the ammo mfg just uses what is available with the same process that was used 30y ago to make it. That being Eley Tennex and Lapua Midas+

    I know some of my ideas cannot pass the market price test, but many would if we use the new tools of design and mfg and produce at scale. Double Star has a factory in Winchester, KY near where I work. Maybe we could lease a space in the corner to make the best super match grade 22lr in the world? I already own a company called WARCo Engineering LLC. It is not active at the moment but I was planning to re-activate it in the new year anyway. We could start a mfg subsidiary to do the testing and R&D. I know a firm in Boston with powdered metal 3D printing ability. Maybe Olin or others would want to contribute propellant/primer.
    Stop and think about why you do not see top flight rimfire mfg ammo from the US. What is different here?
    The EPA, and companies which produced acids and other key components of a certain very specific grade and quality that now either had their production plants completely disassembled, or relocated facilities failing to run as predicted. How many lead smelting plants were shut down over a decade ago?
    We live in a time where machining/manufacturing repeatability can be at an all time high, yet where’s the quality ammo of the last 40 years?
    Some of the best ammo I’ve fired:
    PMC (Korea) shifted to Mexico
    Winchester (Australia) plant shut down
    Fiocchi (Italy) shifted to Mexico
    Federal (USA) what happened to the quality of UM1, 711, 711B made in the Anoka Mn plant?
    “Eley Primed” became a marketing gimmick for Remington and Aguila, but certainly didn’t increase sales with match shooters.
    It’s all very frustrating.
     

    Geno C.

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    Stop and think about why you do not see top flight rimfire mfg ammo from the US. What is different here?
    The EPA, and companies which produced acids and other key components of a certain very specific grade and quality that now either had their production plants completely disassembled, or relocated facilities failing to run as predicted. How many lead smelting plants were shut down over a decade ago?
    We live in a time where machining/manufacturing repeatability can be at an all time high, yet where’s the quality ammo of the last 40 years?
    Some of the best ammo I’ve fired:
    PMC (Korea) shifted to Mexico
    Winchester (Australia) plant shut down
    Fiocchi (Italy) shifted to Mexico
    Federal (USA) what happened to the quality of UM1, 711, 711B made in the Anoka Mn plant?
    “Eley Primed” became a marketing gimmick for Remington and Aguila, but certainly didn’t increase sales with match shooters.
    It’s all very frustrating.
    Eley prime isn’t a marketing gimmick. It’s the safest way to prime cases. When Aguila had their plant explosion, that’s when they made a deal with Eley.

    I am also of the belief, that the current restriction in 22 is the ammo.
     

    obx22

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    Eley prime isn’t a marketing gimmick. It’s the safest way to prime cases. When Aguila had their plant explosion, that’s when they made a deal with Eley.

    I am also of the belief, that the current restriction in 22 is the ammo.
    Check your dates sir, I believe the plant explosion was in early 2015, Eley Primed marked ammo boxes pre-date that but fair margin iirc.
     

    RAVAGE88

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    Mike,

    You told me that down in Somerset at a match a few years ago. The Old Winchester 52's and the old Anschutz 54 Super Match rifles from the late 40's thru Early 60's seemed to have some special essence that enabled them to shoot amazingly well even decades after their mfg. One of the tales I was told by one of my uncles who was a WWII US Army Air Corps armorer is that the barrel blanks were machined and then left out in the cold to go thru many freeze/thaw cycles (often for 4-5 years) to presumably help season them in effect better stabilize the grain of the steel so that when the bore was drilled and rifled and later when the barrel was shot and warmed, the alignment of the grain in the metal would not distort as much as an un-seasoned bbl. This is not the same seasoning that we do when we shoot a rimfire. Alas, this is all old wives tales and I cannot say what really made the difference. This was also done with engine blocks in the 30's and other metal machines.

    These days it is hard to make metal gun parts only to put them up in a rickhouse to age for years like good bourbon, lol. But, if we were to identify the good properties of the old ways and devise new ways to acquire or apply them to new Solidworks CAD machined modern firearms we could potentially take another step forward on the road to better rimfire performance.

    I find it funny how many things we share in common. I too am left handed but right eye dominant and thus was taught to shoot Right handed while still being blessed with the creative side as well. I too am an engineer by trade but in my case electrical. I took that route because I understood it less and wanted to learn. Am also a former pilot. learned to fly in college on little Cessna 150's and 172's but quickly graduated to doing aerobatics in Navy birds. Lots of fun. These days I am grounded but still shooting. Let me guess, I bet you also ride Motorcycles? I raced them for years dirt and road race and still chug around on an old HD.

    My Wish List -
    1. An American built 22lr rifle capable of winning national factory class BR matches. I hate watching CZ's and Tikka's dominate the sport after all the old Remington and Winchesters were banned. But that is a price point class. Limit is $1000. Mybe not sexy but a need. Same as sending our Olympians to compete using Euro-trash rifles. The challenge is to make a superior rifle at that price point. I think it would take some innovative thinking and techniques to pull it off.

    2. Apply new hard friction reducing coatings to moving parts like bolts to smooth the factory action. DLC (diamond like coating) or NP3 (a Nickle Teflon coating developed for the Northshore oil & gas industry) are two that come to mind. They are both tougher than ceracoat and would be very slick without need for oil as lube. These would be a nice application for auto-loaders as well.

    3. Dig deep into the material science of making metal rifle bbl's. Develop new or old ways of seasoning the metal blanks. Possibly devise a new method for crafting them that is more precise than any of the current methods (cut rifling, broached, hammer forged). What if... We bored and rifled the bore at the same time using a laser or electron discharge method so precise that it removed only one atom at a time, albeit very quickly to produce a perfect bore that is also mirror smooth right out of the mfg process? Explore new alloys or treatments that could enhance the process. Develop a new shape for the actual rifling that is less likely to drift in the wind. Polygonal, ratchet, rounded rifling, yada yada.

    4. Ammo. Since rimfire performance is so ammo dependent, why not re-invent the Federal Ultra-Match ammo that dominated in the 1990's. That was the old case with the dimple in the rear to control the amount and location of the primer material better and to enhance ignition by directing the sparks from the primer forward into the powder charge. It worked, and it ruled and then it disappeared. Russian Olymp ammo was similar and it is gone now too. Match grade 22lr ammo is all either British Eley or German/Scandanavian RWS and Lapua. Nobody else is in the game. Americans are very innovative people and our engineers are at least as good as the Brits and Germans. I know, I have worked with all of them. Let's put our minds together and develop the next level of high precision, mass produced 22lr ammo.

    John Boyd the father of the OODA Loop and modern maneuver warfare, would suggest that we de-construct the 22lr bullet and re-imagine it better. 1.) Better case using the Dimple primer as the default start point. Would something besides brass work better? 2.) Better primer possibly using new compounds. 3.) New powder that is designed to meter more precisely in the tiny amounts needed. Possibly a solid pellet instead of a powder? What if we combined the primer & powder into the same solid component all nestled at the rear of the case?, 4.) New bullet, shape, alloy, lube. Use a coating that is less temperature sensitive, etc. New shapes that have better BC.

    Rock On. I am available for consult by appointment... Irish
    Wow Dude, where do I start with this one?

    I remember that conversation in Somerset vividly and I remember the 52 you were shooting....sorry, but the rifle started the conversation and it's why I came over to your bench. :LOL: . Until that point, I had no idea you were JG26_Irish but I was happy to know when you told me. I've enjoyed your posts here for years. As far as those old rifles, there are times that I sit at the desk in my office and pick one up just to mess with it. I keep a 52 and old 40X right next to my desk....

    As far as the seasoning goes....while I was growing up in Alabama, I started working in my Dad's diesel shop when I was around eight, likely younger. We built a lot of Detroits, Cats and Cummins and I recall a seasoning method that Detroit used wherein they "stored" blocks, heads, cranks and other key components, outside, in a "seasoning field." The goal was to have them sit for a period that they'd rust to a point that one might believe they weren't usable. When we received brand new parts, I remember standing and just looking at the detail (of course after I used mineral spirits to wash all the cosmoline off). My Dad would tell me about the seasoning fields and after asking why they'd want to do such a thing, he said it made the material stronger and it actually finish machined with a far better surface finish. So, I'm intrigued by what you're saying about the barrels and other parts that were seasoned in the same way and never imagined that those parts come from the same era where that practice was apparently common.

    And, the commonalties are rather scary....kindred spirits for sure and yes, I'm a pretty serious motorcycle guy. I've built a lot of bikes over the years and one of my favorites was a restomod on a 1948 Panhead. It turned into a restomod because I crashed it on the maiden voyage because the old original Linkert M75 carb went WOT. There wasn't enough braking power to stop the bike so I held on until I could wrestle it to the ground. I was sitting on the seat "T" because the old seat pan had not come back from the upholsterer, but I wasn't going to let that stop me. I ripped down the driveway, through the neighbors ditch across the street and into their yard, through a couple flower beds and finally straightened it out enough to literally steer it into the ground. Had I not stopped it, there was no way to not go through an eight foot privacy fence and into a swimming pool in the other neighbors back yard. Not a lot of damage to the bike, but the original 1948 two-piece bars were bent and crimped in a way that I couldn't use them. Four days from that point, I was headed to Sturgis, so I got back to work and made a few changes; working through the night for a couple nights. We made it to Sturgis and pics are below of that old bike. After Sturgis, it went to a H-D museum at a dealership in Orange, VA, sat there for about four years and a guy from Sweden talked them into selling it to him. That old bike is still cruising around Sweden to this day. My sons also have the motorcycle bug, so I bought a trashed out old '88 Softail with an Evo and they tore it down to build something of their own design. We built a new engine for it and it's coming along.

    My current ride is a 2019 FLHT (Standard). I brought it home and immediately disassembled most everything. The list of what I did is too long for this post, but it's definitely not a stock bike. I did all the programming and dyno tuning and to have a bagger break loose and lay down a trail of tire smoke is rather invigorating. A little more has changed since the latest picture of it below, as I had time to make a few parts for the front calipers to mount up and the make-due Aluminum spacers are gone now. The carbon fiber wheels reduced rolling weight by 110 pounds and that's unsprung weight, so it's deceiving when looking at what one would think is a big, heavy, slow bike. I'm a huge fan of the M8 and although I maintained stock displacement, it makes gobs of HP and torque.

    I'm highly interested in your desire to perform to the first point in your Wish List above. Based on the features in the mid scale action, I'd like to make your desire a strong focus of performance for this action. I've been working on/assisting with a barrel making process that's likely to contribute to a bit of change for rimfire shooters. We should probably talk about this, so shoot me a PM and let's figure out a way to get together and have a serious discussion.

    Ammo is certainly an important part of what we want to accomplish in rimfire shooting and it needs a serious update. We should also make this part of our discussion.

    Anyway, I could keep writing about this, so I'll stop here, but shoot me a PM whenever, no hurry.

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    MB
     
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    RAVAGE88

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    It was a good day to fly today in KY. I spent all day on the Harley. Go Cats!
    It was a beautifully smooth day to fly in CT/MA and I loitered for a while to do three nighttime landings and now good for 91 days of night currency. Purely therapeutic....

    MB
     

    JG26_Irish

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    Wow Dude, where do I start with this one?

    I remember that conversation in Somerset vividly and I remember the 52 you were shooting....sorry, but the rifle started the conversation and it's why I came over to your bench. :LOL: . Until that point, I had no idea you were JG26_Irish but I was happy to know when you told me. I've enjoyed your posts here for years. As far as those old rifles, there are times that I sit at the desk in my office and pick one up just to mess with it. I keep a 52 and old 40X right next to my desk....


    I'm highly interested in your desire to perform to the first point in your Wish List above. Based on the features in the mid scale action, I'd like to make your desire a strong focus of performance for this action. I've been working on/assisting with a barrel making process that's likely to contribute to a bit of change for rimfire shooters. We should probably talk about this, so shoot me a PM and let's figure out a way to get together and have a serious discussion.

    Ammo is certainly an important part of what we want to accomplish in rimfire shooting and it needs a serious update. We should also make this part of our discussion.

    Anyway, I could keep writing about this, so I'll stop here, but shoot me a PM whenever, no hurry.



    MB
    Mike, Like peas in a pod, lol. It is great that you are mentoring the boys by building bikes and engines. My son and I do similar things around shooting and car racing. When he wanted to learn to drive, I took him to the SCCA and had him racing before he got his license. Not to go fast but to learn how to steer thru a skid, brake hard and corner safely. Later both my daughters did the same. All learned to drive a stick. My son and I are both great fans of F1 racing and while we don't back the same teams, we enjoy the extreme motorsports and sometimes travel together to watch a race.

    I think you and I would be good friends if we lived closer together. My current ride is a 20yr old FLH-TC-FS. It is an 88 twincam Fire Fighter Special. The first ever made by HD after 911. I was a fire fighter for 18y and the fire red with gold trim caught my eye. It has V&H true duals, MSD ignition, 42mm Mik flatslide, hypercharger, SE cams with hi-vol oil pump and updated cam chain tensioners so it stays running. Dyno-tuned. Like you I have custom wheels but instead of carbon they are billet aluminum carved in the shape of the fire fighter cross. Probably added unsprung weight, lol. It is not fast but fun. If I wanna go fast then I have a Ducati for that. I attached a pick of the HD sitting in front of the mural of the Portsmouth Motorcycle Club. The oldest in the USA. And the Duc out on Mulholand and the Angeles Crest Highway in LA.

    I will shoot you a PM on the other stuff.
     

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    MarinePMI

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    Check your dates sir, I believe the plant explosion was in early 2015, Eley Primed marked ammo boxes pre-date that but fair margin iirc.
    Unfortunately, there have been a few plant explosions at Industrias Technos (Cuernavaca, MX); some before the switch to Eley priming, some after. It was what caused the shortages of their ammo in the US market over the years (workers' strikes, plant fatalities, etc.).

    A plant explosion is indeed what made Aguila/IT moved to Eley priming, and came about with cooperation between Eley and Efrain Peralta (IT/Aguila Chief Engineer; who sadly passed away recently). I know this because Efrain told me as much, and was a friend of mine. He took it personally, when ever there was an accident, because he frequented the manufacturing floor daily, even hourly, and so, knew every employee by name. It hurt him (personally) badly, whenever there were fatalities. Even still, accidents happened even with Eley priming, though it is MUCH safer to work with, since it is a paste, and has less chance of being accidentally/inadvertently dispersed, as well as being fairly inert when still wet. However, it can still be accidentally left on surrounding objects, that when dry, becomes extremely sensitive to pressure (which is what happened in 2015, as I understand it from talking with Efrain).

    Many don't know, but IT/Aguila/Centurion had a very long relationship with Eley; even making some of their ammo under contract. And they met every year at SHOT Show to discuss trends, opportunities, and just to maintain friendships between the two staffs (I can remember being in some of those discussions, and the business affection between several of the staff employees was very obvious. They sincerely liked and respected one another.). It always made me chuckle when someone would say that they wouldn't shoot that "cheap Mexican .22 ammo" and would only shoot "Eley xxxx". They never realized that IT made ammo for Eley, as well as the CMP program. But I digress...

    So, while your date for the one explosion is correct, there were in fact, several over the years at the Cuernavaca plant, that precipitated the move to Eley priming (paste & plunger, versus liquid spun like CCI) and away from the more dangerous liquid priming.

    You have to remember that in Mexico, firearms and ammunition are tightly controlled, and largely foreign to most Mexican citizens. This introduced a lot of challenges when training the workers (especially with the 5mm RemMag reintroduction), as well as getting them to fully understand how hazardous and volatile the priming compounds could be, and under what conditions. Unfortunately, there were times when they got sloppy with their procedures, in a desire to meet production times/quantities, and accidents occurred. :(

    v/r
    MPMI

    ETA: Here's a picture of Efrain, back when we were field testing the prototype 5mm ammunition. It was his first time shooting prairie dogs, and he was having a blast. The rimfire world is lesser without him, and I miss seeing and talking with my old friend. :( He had quite an interesting history, that would amaze most folks.
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    Frankr

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    Mike:

    Just a few more thoughts.

    1. My great uncles 52c that he left to me shoots good with all ammo. It could polish a turd. Funny thing is I love shorter barrels (have a 16” on my bolt 308 for hunting) but this long ass barrel length ~28” I’m pretty sure contributes to the ability to shoot all types of ammo well (super sonic, sub sonic, SV etc…).

    2. The 52c has a flat crown which has always amazed me that it works so well and has survived hunting for so many decades

    3. Magazines on a small action will be paramount. The tikka T1x mag is decent. Cz plastic mags are good, metal cz mags have been hit and miss for me, savage mags suck imho, 52c mags have been good.


    Last thought and it’s way way out there.

    I was shooting my FX wildcat (bullpup) and I just got thinking how awesome a great bullpup slide action 22lr, 17hm2 would be. The FX location on the handle to cycle the action is tits. OAL is super short and even with my Donny FL moderator on it the whole damn thing is super short.

    We go hunting ground squirrels in farmers fields in the spring (depending on snow and rain) and it’s not unusual to walk/spot and stalk all day long and a bullpup that’s light and well balanced would be dope. We usually use 17hmr or 17hm2 and take them out to 200 yards (most shots ~90-140 yards). Not long shots for a vudoo but almost everyone is shooting a sub $1,000 gun even though we shoot $300 of ammo in 1-2 days.

    Your idea for a smaller action that’s DLC coated is great. Ruger (yes ruger) American rimfire and RPRr have some of the smoothest (probably because they are sloppy) actions the guys use and love. Some of the better actions they haven’t loved as much because they are more “stiff” to cycle. Also small actions that are smooth are great for kids especially as they learn and help them gain confidence as they develop muscle memory on cycling and action.

    Keep us posted. Super excited to hear what you do next.
     
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    simpletoms

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    I love the path these threads take… Always something new and interesting to learn. From seasoning steel, to the history of Aguila ammo and Eley. Solid work guys.

    Back to .22’s, especially as we see fast twist, ratchet twist, an everything else come into play, switch change barrels are a nice feature. MB, if you‘re designing it, and the barrels (at least initially), I’m in.

    Random thought, Any thought to creating the action to accommodate .22 Hornet, .218 Bee, or .17 Hornet? If it’s a switch barrel, other than a new bolt, what else would you need to do small bore centerfire?

    Last random thought. MB, have you ever crossed paths with Teddy Bear Rat on Rimfire Central? He’s a die hard hobby gunsmith with fine tastes in .22’s. He enjoys the true to scale type rifle and has built up 52’s, 10/22 and a falling block or two.

    I’m certain he‘s got some opinions on where next with .22’s…




     
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    JG26_Irish

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    1. My great uncles 52c that he left to me shoots good with all ammo. It could polish a turd. Funny thing is I love shorter barrels (have a 16” on my bolt 308 for hunting) but this long ass barrel length ~28” I’m pretty sure contributes to the ability to shoot all types of ammo well (super sonic, sub sonic, SV etc…).
    Frankr,

    How long it is, is not the most important factor, (that's what she said) ;)

    I have three Win 52's. Two are B-models and are unmolested. My first one however is a Pre-A speedloc that was modified by a previous owner. The iron sights were removed and the bbl was shortened to 22 and 3/4 inches. They even replicated the flat, un-blued crown. I always thought that was a very odd and specific length. It turns it into a Winchester 52 "carbine" that is very handy as a hunting rifle. I had a modern scope on it for years and hunted squirrels and it also shoots anything well. A few years ago, I removed the modern optic and mounted an old vintage BalVAR 6-24x barrel mounted scope. If you know these, they were THE scope in the late 50's and early 60's. Something about mounting the scope to the barrel caused the rifle to shoot even better despite the scope having the same power as the one I removed. I began taking it to our local outlaw rimfire benchrest matches on Thursday nights and it was winning, a lot. That was about 6 years ago. Today 3/4's of the regular shooters at that match shoot a Win 52 of some vintage. The only rules are it must be a factory repeater and must be shot from sandbags. There are a few of everything and we are pretty liberal about the rules but the 52's rule most of the time. My long winded point is that there is more to those old rifles than just the long bbl. They will also shoot well with short bbl's. I added a couple shots of the old carbine and a 6x5 from when I shot it more often and a 5 shot 50y group using center x from a bench. It is not that good every time but shoots well with most good ammo. It is old (1932 vintage) looks like it was dragged down a gravel road and is far from original but that is why I could afford to buy it at the time. It is important to me, because it was THE first truly accurate 22lr that I ever owned and is responsible for the large accumulation of rimfire hardware I have today. The genesis rifle, lol.
     

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    obx22

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    Unfortunately, there have been a few plant explosions at Industrias Technos (Cuernavaca, MX); some before the switch to Eley priming, some after. It was what caused the shortages of their ammo in the US market over the years (workers' strikes, plant fatalities, etc.).

    A plant explosion is indeed what made Aguila/IT moved to Eley priming, and came about with cooperation between Eley and Efrain Peralta (IT/Aguila Chief Engineer; who sadly passed away recently). I know this because Efrain told me as much, and was a friend of mine. He took it personally, when ever there was an accident, because he frequented the manufacturing floor daily, even hourly, and so, knew every employee by name. It hurt him (personally) badly, whenever there were fatalities. Even still, accidents happened even with Eley priming, though it is MUCH safer to work with, since it is a paste, and has less chance of being accidentally/inadvertently dispersed, as well as being fairly inert when still wet. However, it can still be accidentally left on surrounding objects, that when dry, becomes extremely sensitive to pressure (which is what happened in 2015, as I understand it from talking with Efrain).

    Many don't know, but IT/Aguila/Centurion had a very long relationship with Eley; even making some of their ammo under contract. And they met every year at SHOT Show to discuss trends, opportunities, and just to maintain friendships between the two staffs (I can remember being in some of those discussions, and the business affection between several of the staff employees was very obvious. They sincerely liked and respected one another.). It always made me chuckle when someone would say that they wouldn't shoot that "cheap Mexican .22 ammo" and would only shoot "Eley xxxx". They never realized that IT made ammo for Eley, as well as the CMP program. But I digress...

    So, while your date for the one explosion is correct, there were in fact, several over the years at the Cuernavaca plant, that precipitated the move to Eley priming (paste & plunger, versus liquid spun like CCI) and away from the more dangerous liquid priming.

    You have to remember that in Mexico, firearms and ammunition are tightly controlled, and largely foreign to most Mexican citizens. This introduced a lot of challenges when training the workers (especially with the 5mm RemMag reintroduction), as well as getting them to fully understand how hazardous and volatile the priming compounds could be, and under what conditions. Unfortunately, there were times when they got sloppy with their procedures, in a desire to meet production times/quantities, and accidents occurred. :(

    v/r
    MPMI

    ETA: Here's a picture of Efrain, back when we were field testing the prototype 5mm ammunition. It was his first time shooting prairie dogs, and he was having a blast. The rimfire world is lesser without him, and I miss seeing and talking with my old friend. :( He had quite an interesting history, that would amaze most folks.
    View attachment 7977680
    Geno C.
    You’ve my apologies, I hate sharing incorrect info.
    Marine PMI,
    Appreciate all the info, sounds like you lost a good friend, my condolences.
     
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    J_D

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    Mike is that your Exile?

    I always preferred WCC but came close to an Exile purchase around the same time. I'm currently on 2018 Heritage Classic, but in my home I have a few 1972 XR 750's.

    I never realized Evel jumped a flat tracker with the front brake the only change. He had brass bowling balls.
     

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    RAVAGE88

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    Minuteman
  • Feb 13, 2017
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    Look up.
    Mike is that your Exile?

    I always preferred WCC but came close to an Exile purchase around the same time. I'm currently on 2018 Heritage Classic, but in my home I have a few 1972 XR 750's.

    I never realized Evel jumped a flat tracker with the front brake the only change. He had brass bowling balls.
    Yep, I bought the Daytec/Exile frame and a few other parts from Exile. I designed and made parts for them back in the days of the Discovery channel motorcycle shows. I built the bike in my shop and took it to Sturgis and it spent time in the Exile and Drag Specialties display booths. It was foot clutch/jocky shift and a true handful. Dan DaVinci built the carburetor for me back in the days of his doing that kind of work, now he just just fuel systems for race cars.

    MB
     

    J_D

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    Yep, I bought the Daytec/Exile frame and a few other parts from Exile. I designed and made parts for them back in the days of the Discovery channel motorcycle shows. I built the bike in my shop and took it to Sturgis and it spent time in the Exile and Drag Specialties display booths. It was foot clutch/jocky shift and a true handful. Dan DaVinci built the carburetor for me back in the days of his doing that kind of work, now he just just fuel systems for race cars.

    MB
    Very cool! I always liked Russell's no chrome style, I just heard so much about the hidden cabling causing issues during riding.

    Nice build!
     
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    RAVAGE88

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  • Feb 13, 2017
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    Awesome day today Fellas. The Wife and I took off from Northampton Airport with friends around 5:30p and headed to Laconia, NH (KLCI) for dinner. Pretty awesome time and a really cool short field landing back at 7B2; a really dark and difficult airport at night. There was no moon and did a visual approach....the end of what has been a perfect day.

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