Where Do We Go From Here?

RAVAGE88

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  • Feb 13, 2017
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    Ok are we talking about buying a barrel that will fit any CZ457 or sending in a CZ457 action to be threaded for a barrel with length options like 22” 0.90 and a cone breach with an EPS chamber and indexing for the barrel ?

    Or are we talking about a new to the scene proprietary action with a barrel you can dream up we will make so you can swap depending on the task ?
    No sir, sorry, nothing for the CZ….

    MB
     
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    FromMyColdDeadHand

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    Wow, you guys have been busy. I haven't been as active lately because I've lost my shooting buddy to a girl- and he is learning to fly. Funny intersection. He is looking at doing commercial pilot training. I 'lose' him next fall.

    Howa mini actions are interesting. I picked one up in 6.5G. I was looking to convert it to 6ARC and take AR15 mags- so I could have ARs and a bolt gun with the same mags and ammo, for up-close to far away. AR mags are a just bit too wide. I either need to find someone that will cut it down a bit or do it myself. I have a larger 3D printer on order for printing stock components.

    My latest hotness is a 457/liljax9/Tuner in an MDT stock. Need to get it out and figure out the best tuning and then turn it loose on some long range steel. I'm really liking it. I love my 40X conversion, but I was never 100% confident in it- fliers and just not impacting where I thought it should. Hard to explain. This 457 is more 'predictable'.

    I'm fully on board with all the 'pushing the edge' to move things forward, but at its root, 22lr is about cheap fun that you can learn from. Lord knows that I'm more than willing to throw money at accuracy, but this all needs to feed back to how we get more shooters at a price point that people can generally engage at.
     
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    SanPatHogger

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    I hear a lot of people wish listing on here. I'll put mine here too.

    Some day I'd love to have a Defiance Ruckus Tactical with 30 MOA rail, chambered in 300 Norma magnum, a mcmillan stock, and some type of gigantic scope. It would be a gun to go shoot a mile, 2,000 yards, 2 miles.... whatever is available. Problem is it's a rifle that would soak up a LOT of money and then I would not get to shoot it that often. How often does a gun like that get used, a few times a year? And even rolling your own ammo is probably $3+ a round...

    Now what if there was a way to swap out the bolt and barrel to 22LR and shoot it every weekend? Like the CMMG kit for an AR? A bolt that replaced the factory bolt and has a smaller action in the end of it. Unscrew the 300 barrel and screw in an adapter that looks like a piece of threaded pipe with a nut like a Remage barrel. Then the 22 barrel fits into that like a CZ or a Ruger 10/22.....

    Even if the barrel, bolt and magazine were $700 it would still be worth it. Being able to shoot your sweet stock, scope, trigger, bipod..... whatever else you stick on a gun these days.... That's thousands of dollars that you are only spending once.

    If you use my idea You can pay me with 2 sets and 1% of whatever you make...
     
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    littlepod

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    I hear a lot of people wish listing on here. I'll put mine here too.

    Some day I'd love to have a Defiance Ruckus Tactical with 30 MOA rail, chambered in 300 Norma magnum, a mcmillan stock, and some type of gigantic scope. It would be a gun to go shoot a mile, 2,000 yards, 2 miles.... whatever is available. Problem is it's a rifle that would soak up a LOT of money and then I would not get to shoot it that often. How often does a gun like that get used, a few times a year? And even rolling your own ammo is probably $3+ a round...

    Now what if there was a way to swap out the bolt and barrel to 22LR and shoot it every weekend? Like the CMMG kit for an AR? A bolt that replaced the factory bolt and has a smaller action in the end of it. Unscrew the 300 barrel and screw in an adapter that looks like a piece of threaded pipe with a nut like a Remage barrel. Then the 22 barrel fits into that like a CZ or a Ruger 10/22.....

    Even if the barrel, bolt and magazine were $700 it would still be worth it. Being able to shoot your sweet stock, scope, trigger, bipod..... whatever else you stick on a gun these days.... That's thousands of dollars that you are only spending once.

    If you use my idea You can pay me with 2 sets and 1% of whatever you make...
    Curtis just did this with their actions.
     

    rick137

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    Perhaps I missed it but I did not see any post with questions or comments on triggers and stocks for the new rifle actions and pistols. Will the new rifle actions be compatible with Rem 700 stocks and triggers? Will the new pistols have triggers adjustable for pull force and travel? Will existing grips be used for the pistols or new, perhaps custom, grips be available?

    Finally am I correct in stating there will be new actions and pistols for both centerfire and rimfire calibers?

    Many thanks for any intel.

    Rick

    EDIT: 2022-10-31: My bad. Stocks and triggers have been mentioned for the "true-to-scale" action. I did not know that meant an action with Rem 700 SA geometry. So my questions refer to the mid-scale centerfire actions and the pistols. But another question - an estimate of when these products will hit the market. As to price remember the dictum, "Good things are seldom if ever cheap and cheap things are seldom if ever good."
     
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    rookie7

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    I’ve been wanting to say this for a while: ”I’m your huckleberry.” 🤣😂

    I’ve been listening to you grouchy old guys and have just the ticket for what you’re describing and I’ve referred to it as the “mid-scale” action. It won’t use my AICS design and perfectly fits what you’re describing.

    MB

    I've been reading this thread backwards, so forgive me if I have missed something.

    If the crowd that you will create/build/sell-to with your new ventures is the same crowd that gravitates towards a rimfire that closely mimics a centefire - I am missing the logic.

    Vudoo, RimX, and Bergara all share a huge selling point - 700 compatibility.

    No disrespect intended here - I'm 100% curious.

    thank you
     

    Buckhead

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    I've been reading this thread backwards, so forgive me if I have missed something.

    If the crowd that you will create/build/sell-to with your new ventures is the same crowd that gravitates towards a rimfire that closely mimics a centefire - I am missing the logic.

    Vudoo, RimX, and Bergara all share a huge selling point - 700 compatibility.

    No disrespect intended here - I'm 100% curious.

    thank you
    MB is bringing out more than 1 action. A true-to-scale 700 format and a mid-scale. Something for everyone. Be not afraid.
    That was just me indicating that I prefer to shoot matches with a rifle of smaller (lighter) dimensions.
     
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    rick137

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    In the spirit of "where do we go from here" I would be most interested in a semi-auto 22LR rifle with features the Kidd SG doesn't have or has but could be improved upon.
     

    obx22

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    In the spirit of "where do we go from here" I would be most interested in a semi-auto 22LR rifle with features the Kidd SG doesn't have or has but could be improved upon.
    To really break past the current shell laid down by the 10/22 footprint and its limitations, one would need to explore other known accurate designs and trickle the proven successful/best ideas into one.
    Box receiver or tubular?
    Hammer or striker fired?
    Magazine location?
    Etc, etc…..
     

    rick137

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    To really break past the current shell laid down by the 10/22 footprint and its limitations, one would need to explore other known accurate designs and trickle the proven successful/best ideas into one.
    Box receiver or tubular?
    Hammer or striker fired?
    Magazine location?
    Etc, etc…..
    @obx22:

    Thanks for the intel although my understanding of your choices is minimal. I presume the thrust of the choices is to improve the accuracy. From experience I would say the Kidd SG is extremely reliable in terms of feeding and extracting.
     
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    Gleedus

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    I have been away from the hide for a bit so just getting caught up. No not flying... trucks... @RAVAGE88 I was very curious about your diversion into flying. I find people and what makes us tick a very interesting topic. Your style of responses had changed over the last couple years. In the back of my mind I wondered.... I am an all in all out personality.... love creating and R&D..... very goal oriented... sometimes in life our talents are our undoing. We put our all in and create with our passion the amazing. But it can become the "monster" that takes the very thing we love away. At some point it can become best to move on regardless what human logic might say. Yet to carefully walk away and give our blood sweat and tears aka the "monster" into the hands of others can be pretty hard and has to be done right. Done right its no longer a monster. Guess I betray myself in this. Trying to sort things out for the best of all and let me get back to my passion. Responsibility to family and employees is not a small matter. Times like this we learn alot about ourselves. God always has a purpose for us. I'm super excited for you! Being able to transition and pursue what makes you tick again. We probably will never meet but here is a virtual handshake from Canada. 🤝 If you ever come up to Ontario..... more then a few options for landing a bird around here.

    Wishing you all the best going forward.
     

    RAVAGE88

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    I have been away from the hide for a bit so just getting caught up. No not flying... trucks... @RAVAGE88 I was very curious about your diversion into flying. I find people and what makes us tick a very interesting topic. Your style of responses had changed over the last couple years. In the back of my mind I wondered.... I am an all in all out personality.... love creating and R&D..... very goal oriented... sometimes in life our talents are our undoing. We put our all in and create with our passion the amazing. But it can become the "monster" that takes the very thing we love away. At some point it can become best to move on regardless what human logic might say. Yet to carefully walk away and give our blood sweat and tears aka the "monster" into the hands of others can be pretty hard and has to be done right. Done right its no longer a monster. Guess I betray myself in this. Trying to sort things out for the best of all and let me get back to my passion. Responsibility to family and employees is not a small matter. Times like this we learn alot about ourselves. God always has a purpose for us. I'm super excited for you! Being able to transition and pursue what makes you tick again. We probably will never meet but here is a virtual handshake from Canada. 🤝 If you ever come up to Ontario..... more then a few options for landing a bird around here.

    Wishing you all the best going forward.
    Thank you for the post, Dude. Highly valid points and very accurate observations. I only know how to do things one way and it's an "all in" way. When asked, told or expected to do something that diverts from what it means to produce the absolute best, I'm out. Lastly, been to Ontario quite a bit and will likely be in Ontario again....

    All the best,
    MB
     
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    RedDawn

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    steve123

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    I've mentioned this before in this thread. and others elsewhere, but IMHO "THE" ultimate little cartridge is the 20 Vartarg or specifically my version which was named the 5mmFBI or Fire Ball Improved. Okay I'm biased a little, lol!

    Here's why.
    If someone wants to load it down for reduced velocity this case excels at this repurpose. My reduced load sends 32's at 2300 fps. The ES is still good which makes it a fun long range plinker round and it prints small groups at farther distances very well , unlike 22 mag, 17 hmr, and 17WSM, which have 2-3 times the ES.

    My barrel is a 11 twist 21.5" Pacnor and with the 32 grainers my medium load is going 3750 fps which is similar to 22-250 ballistics but without the noise, the recoil, the barrel heating up fast, and the poor throat life/barrel life of that cartridge, etc.
    If I had my bolt bushed on my CZ527( due to primer flow) and used AA2200 powder I could get another 150 fps. It's easy to hit my 15" plate at 500Y when the wind is down with my current load too!
    Another "if" is using a longer barrel. For example a 26" barrel would give another 100 fps. Now it's into 22-250 AI territory.

    17 cals are a PITA to load for, the barrels need to be cleaned more often, tend to burn throats quicker, and sometimes its hard to see where misses land in the field. I've had a 17K Hornet and three 17 Rems(burned the barrel out on two of them) as well as a 17hmr to compare with other calibers.

    22 cals need heavier bullets to get similar BC's as 20 cal which necessitates more powder to gain the same velocities. Had many sizes of 22 centerfire cartridges in varmint rifles over the years. Does this make me an expert on varmint cartidges, heck NO, but if it means anything to anyone I've sold all my 17 and 22 centerfires because I typically sell what I don't use, also because I don't want to buy more safes, and the 5mmFBI does everything small cartridge related in such a dandy way. It is nice presently to only reload for one small varmint cartridge!!!

    In case people didn't realize this;
    The 17cal 25gr Vmax has a .230 BC.
    The 20 cal 40gr Vmax has a .275 BC.
    The 20 cal 55gr Berger has a .354 BC.

    The 22 cal 70gr Berger VLD has a .371 BC.

    5mmFBI reduced load using cheap Nosler 32gr hp along with 22rf next to it.
    20221122_141455.jpg
     
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    flatland1

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    Steve, Several years ago, I built myself a 20 Vartarg on a Rem M700 CDL SS that I purchased new as a 17Fireball, just to get the action & stock. I pulled the fluted stainless bbl and sent it to Bartlein with the request to duplicate the contour on a 20 cal, 1-11 tw blank, which they did. It made a really fun rifle to shoot, but there were no decent dog towns out here to use it in, and so I eventually sold it to a fellow who was planning a PD safari up in the Dakotas. The one-and-only drawback at the time was the poor quality of a 500ct box of R-P 221FB brass I bought for it - almost 15% of those cases had shallow primer pockets. They were so shallow that I couldn't seat primers flush in them. A few years later, Lapua started making 221FB brass, but my reamer cut a .232" dia neck, which would've required neck turning (this was after I'd sold my Vartarg), and probably due to limited demand, they ceased production. So where does that leave us where a source of quality 20VT brass is concerned? The only thing I've seen is brass formed from military 5.56 brass, which is probably just fine, but it's not always available, and since I've never bought any of it, I have no idea how thick the necks are. I'm currently enjoying a couple of rifles chambered for the 20 Tactical (Howa Mini in a Boyds ProVarmint w/adj cheekpiece and a trued M700 in a McMillan Game Scout, both with Bartlein 1-9tw bbls that shoot well with Berger 55LRBTs). But honestly, I'd love to build myself another 20VT on a Howa Mini action, and would probably do so if Lapua would re-start 221FB brass production...
     

    steve123

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    Steve, Several years ago, I built myself a 20 Vartarg on a Rem M700 CDL SS that I purchased new as a 17Fireball, just to get the action & stock. I pulled the fluted stainless bbl and sent it to Bartlein with the request to duplicate the contour on a 20 cal, 1-11 tw blank, which they did. It made a really fun rifle to shoot, but there were no decent dog towns out here to use it in, and so I eventually sold it to a fellow who was planning a PD safari up in the Dakotas. The one-and-only drawback at the time was the poor quality of a 500ct box of R-P 221FB brass I bought for it - almost 15% of those cases had shallow primer pockets. They were so shallow that I couldn't seat primers flush in them. A few years later, Lapua started making 221FB brass, but my reamer cut a .232" dia neck, which would've required neck turning (this was after I'd sold my Vartarg), and probably due to limited demand, they ceased production. So where does that leave us where a source of quality 20VT brass is concerned? The only thing I've seen is brass formed from military 5.56 brass, which is probably just fine, but it's not always available, and since I've never bought any of it, I have no idea how thick the necks are. I'm currently enjoying a couple of rifles chambered for the 20 Tactical (Howa Mini in a Boyds ProVarmint w/adj cheekpiece and a trued M700 in a McMillan Game Scout, both with Bartlein 1-9tw bbls that shoot well with Berger 55LRBTs). But honestly, I'd love to build myself another 20VT on a Howa Mini action, and would probably do so if Lapua would re-start 221FB brass production...

    I've read about those problems with the RP brass but your batch must be particularly bad. My older batch is normal and has also lasted for 5-6 cycles.
    And darn-it, I didn't know Lapua had discontinued their nice brass.
    That leaves Norma 221FB brass which is supposed to be good brass and pretty much interchangeable with Rem brass from what I've read. It's what I'll buy next.
    Then of course forming from military 223 brass which would be a PITA. There was a guy named Abe Bently that sold formed brass over on Saubier but I doubt he does it anymore.

    The reamer came with my rifle so that makes it so I have to turn the necks but I haven't done a new batch yet because I got 300 brass with turned necks with my gun.

    A recent problem is I can't find H4198?? This powder fills the case right to the bottom of the bullet and isn't temp sensitive. I might have to switch powders unfortunately. 18.8gr is what I use for 3750 fps and 5.5grs of 800x for the reduced load. I'd use trail boss for reduced loads but its annoying getting the powder into the small neck.

    Because I lose 300 fps using 40 grainers I'd stick with the lighter bullets vs the 55gr. Wanting to reach out far with more energy is where your 20T would come in handy with the heavy's.

    Though I tried a few more fun chamberings the last decade like 20x47L and 223AI (both fast twist and the heavy bullets that would blow up mid air) I abandoned them. I've slimmed down my choices of long guns to 5mmFBI, 223 with 70's, 6mmBR with 107's, and 6.5Saum with 150's seated out far in a long action. I can't chamber my own so I need good barrel life.

    But the 5mmFBI gets shot the most because its such a joy! I really like using the reduced load out to 300Y on our little animal shaped steels, especially in a good breeze. It's a killer load for plinking but providing challenge in the wind and at the same time without dealing with the lousy vertical of the rimfires. I can shoot many rounds basically until I'm tired of doing so and the barrel doesn't get HOT. Easy to self spot with due to low recoil, cheap to shoot, long barrel life, long brass life, much to love!

    With my 22mag the vertical is pretty bad at 300Y and blows a lot in the wind, same with mid quality 22lr ammo. I get decent vertical with expensive 22rf at 300Y but its $18 a box of 50 now so very seldom do I use it for plinking, instead I save it for matches.

    If this 20VT case were shortened a tenth of an inch I think it'd keep that 3750 fps with a 2" longer barrel and AA2200 powder, while fitting into a sweet tidy little action, hint hint - Mike, smile.

    I've reloaded 5.7x28 and it's a PITA because the case is so thin and short, also its very sensitive to even 2/10's of a grain difference in powder, and that's not all the problems I encountered.

    The 17K hornet was kinda cool but it lacks energy and its hard to spot misses because the bullets are so light. It's an overachiever for what it is but......

    It can be really hard to see misses at my friends place with his 17hmr. Ha, on a windy day at 300Y I outshot him with my pcp air rifle which uses 42gr slugs because he couldn't see where he was missing but I could see where I was missing.

    It's the multitude of these subtle little things that make the 20VT case size such a great choice.
     

    flatland1

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    Agreed - the 20s are where it's at for several reasons. If good brass was abundant & reasonably priced, I've got one NIB Howa Mini 223 that would probably get re-barreled in Vartarg. While I'm pretty pleased with the two 20 Tac rifles, and brass is easy to form, the Vartarg's much smaller case capacity does work in its favor when you're looking for efficiency.

    By the time I sold mine, I'd worked with H4198, RL7, and finally AA2200, which gave the highest velocity and very good accuracy. Still got most of an 8lb jug of it, which would last a long, long time with the small charges the Vartarg uses. I bought Nosler & Hornady 250ct boxes of 32gr poly-tipped bullets when first working with the Vartarg, and have just about finished both boxes off while doing load development in the 20 Tac. The Redding seater puts a kind of nasty ring deformation on these bullets - especially the Noslers - and I've found that the Hornady V-Max 32s out-shoot the Noslers by a considerable margin, even though both bullets suffer some nose damage in this seater plug. I need to get to work on re-shaping the seater stem to try to eliminate the deformation issue, but not sure even that would let the Noslers shoot as well as the Hornadys. It does the same with Hornady & Nosler 40s, but works far better with Berger 40 & 55gr bullets, as well as with Sierra 32 & 39gr BK bullets. Guess that's part of the reason I haven't dinked with the seater stem's cavity. The bigger problem is finding any of the Hornady or Sierra 20 cal bullets in stock anywhere...
     
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    AUMan

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    "Where Do We Go From Here"? Looks like a dead end, a stop, a lost in space. Sad!! I am.
     

    Williwaw

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    Patience ... I'm sure stuff is moving. I'm as anxious as anyone but I'm sure there is much more than I could imagine that has to be set up right in order to bring these things forward in the best way possible.
     
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    jbell

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    Patience ... I'm sure stuff is moving. I'm as anxious as anyone but I'm sure there is much more than I could imagine that has to be set up right in order to bring these things forward in the best way possible.
    No doubt...
     

    littlesister

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    No doubt...
    I'm not holding my breath on this one. I don't believe the wheel will be reinvented this time. It's not the barrel length. not the chamber and not the twist rate. It's the ammo. You can't get long range 200+ yds. repeatable accuracy shooting a 40 grain soft lead bullet traveling 1000fpc. Not to mention the inconsistent remfire ignition and a case that only has a few specs of power in it. I'll go out on a limb here and say 16t is as good as it gets with the remfire ammo we currently shoot.
     

    jbell

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    I'm not holding my breath on this one. I don't believe the wheel will be reinvented this time. It's not the barrel length. not the chamber and not the twist rate. It's the ammo. You can't get long range 200+ yds. repeatable accuracy shooting a 40 grain soft lead bullet traveling 1000fpc. Not to mention the inconsistent remfire ignition and a case that only has a few specs of power in it. I'll go out on a limb here and say 16t is as good as it gets with the remfire ammo we currently shoot.
    I am not saying Mike is going to bring a game changing product to the market, but rather that we will see a new product from him at some point. It will just take time. I agree with you the lowest hanging fruit is ammo by far.
     

    steve123

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    I'm not holding my breath on this one. I don't believe the wheel will be reinvented this time. It's not the barrel length. not the chamber and not the twist rate. It's the ammo. You can't get long range 200+ yds. repeatable accuracy shooting a 40 grain soft lead bullet traveling 1000fpc. Not to mention the inconsistent remfire ignition and a case that only has a few specs of power in it. I'll go out on a limb here and say 16t is as good as it gets with the remfire ammo we currently shoot.

    Yep, the precision could be there at shorter distances with great rimfire ammo but one big killer of precision at longer distances is the ES of the ammo as Justin has pointed out many times.
    The next is what wind affects cause due to eddy's, etc, and how that affects low BC and slow projectiles in vertical as well as the horizontal.

    In the perfect world, with 0 ES, with perfect everything else, each projectile would land in the same hole. But the imperfection of the real world in our rimfire reality is higher ES, lower speed, and lower BC.

    An airgun manufacturer named Ondrej of Altaros claims he has at times been able to produce an SD of 1fps and makes precision lathe turned lead slugs with relatively high BC compared to rimfire (one is a 66gr G1 of .25) which helps immensely at longer distances. It shows in his videos that a calm day and low ES makes hitting stuff much easier way out there.

    Some reasons why I shoot my air rifles more than my rimfires from 25Y to 300Y, one being that its cheap to do so, but another is once a compressor is acquired the air is almost free.

    Rather than rimfire I also prefer my 5mmFBI centerfire that I mentioned earlier using reduced loads if the wind is up and there's less vertical.

    There you go Mike, another project and challenge for you - to make the ultimate pcp air rifle :p
     
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    justin amateur

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    Technical issues will always annoying factors.
    Factory manufactured cartridges will always be a weakness
    which I blame on the human factors and the fact that profit limits quality.
    I can't obtain rimfire ammunition capable of consistent accuracy beyond 35 yards.
    By 50 yards, mv spread and manufacturing defects have already allowed hefty trajectory dispersion.
    Doesn't matter how great the rifle, or shooter skill, when the ammunition is the limiting factor.
    No rifle can magically fix crappy cartridges. Finding well made ammo has become extremely difficult.
    What good is the perfect rifle, when the ammunition isn't adequate to produce the desired results? :(
     

    carbonbased

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    What good is the perfect rifle, when the ammunition isn't adequate to produce the desired results? :(
    I get it. But I guarantee that once the problem has been overcome, one soon will feel bummed (think Olympic athlete gold medal winner). How fun would it be to shoot a laser at a 50yd target?

    And then, problem solved, one will inevitably move to another problem to focus upon.

    That’s how all of us work. Challenges are interesting.

    Doesn’t mean we should sit still and not attempt solving the problem.

    Just enjoy the journey.
     

    justin amateur

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    I have CB, now I'm in the process of learning small bore center fire.
    Building the rifle was basic mechanics, but reloading is an art that has it's own challenges.
    I enjoy being responsible for the quality of the ammunition and not being reliant
    on prepackaged cartridges assembled by disinterested hourly employees.
     
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    steve123

    Lt. Colonel
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 16, 2008
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    none of your business
    I have CB, now I'm in the process of learning small bore center fire.
    Building the rifle was basic mechanics, but reloading is an art that has it's own challenges.
    I enjoy being responsible for the quality of the ammunition and not being reliant
    on prepackaged cartridges assembled by disinterested hourly employees.
    Got a link/s?
    Please share and message me if you want.
     

    carbonbased

    💥💥💥💥
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    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
    Jul 26, 2018
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    Minnesota
    I did enjoy the journey....:D
    Sorry, I’m dense, not following. Something is flying over my head. Are you talking about corticobasal degeneration and it’s effect on one’s shooting/reloading?

    Sorry for being, uh, explicit. I’m writing this publicly as I suspect others my be confused as well.

    In any case, I am very glad you enjoyed the journey!
     

    justin amateur

    Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 21, 2012
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    I'm a lousy typist. Hunt and peck.
    To simplify replys I shorten forum names.
    I have CB....reply to: enjoy the journey...translates to...I have (enjoyed the journey) CarbonBased.
    Took 10 minutes to peck this reply.
    It's true, I'm keyboard-ally challenged. ;)
     
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    MajorD

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 14, 2022
    55
    58
    Dewey AZ
    Regarding what is next, it is interesting to see that we are doing things now that were unheard of with 22 rimfire just a decade ago.
    honestly though, very little in design is innovative any more. Anschutz had the accuracy code pretty well cracked 40 or so years ago, and a 40x from 1965 is pretty much the same basic rifle a vudoo is today. Not saying this as an insult at all. I do think the slight nuances added to things like vudoo and the attention to details in quality production, and the ability of cnc machines to gives us more repeatedly precise/ consistent parts have helped us progress. One of the hallmarks of modern production is reducing variability which is what small dedicated companies like vudoo are shown to be capable of.