Where the F are all the employees and where are they getting their money ?

[lariat]

Now you have changed lanes in the conversation, you have a market shortage and not a labor/worker shortage. With a smaller market to sell to you don't need or want more employees as you need to reduce output to match the market.

True, but companies will try to hang on to their employees for a time until the inevitable decison has to be made. One of the ways to do that is to halt raises. It a bad deal for everyone. Are there bad employers? You bet there are. But there are many who are just trying to keep the doors open and keep their employees with a job.

It telling to me that the market is not willing to bear the costs of what the potential employees are willing to work for (if they actually work once there, that's a whole different conversation). Its widespread, not isolated to asshole bosses. That tells me that there is price inelasticity in the market preventing raises to any real degree. There isn't some secret cabal of bosses worldwide colluding to keep wages low. You have to have a really high demand product to raise prices as fast as raw materials are increasing these days. My fear is that there will be a time when those who want jobs will have become bankrupt, and go to find one but realize that there are none to be had because the input costs to the employers was too great to either keep the doors open or hire anyone else. If that tip-over occurs there will be a run for more social welfare and socialism to come right along with it.

ETA: by and large I am talking about small business owners here, not corporations.

 

[lariat]

Here is the problem in a nutshell:

Over the past two decades, real wages have been flat while GDP doubled and corporate profits have gone up by a factor of 4x. Virtually everything that people need to buy in order to live got more expensive over this period of time as well. So maybe don't be surprised if workers are using a tight labor environment as leverage, because they certainly haven't been on the receiving end of a square deal in a very long time.

I wonder how much of that is due to automation increasing profits and decreasing the need for laborers?

 

[AllenOne1]

True, but companies will try to hang on to their employees for a time until the inevitable decison has to be made. One of the ways to do that is to halt raises. It a bad deal for everyone. Are there bad employers? You bet there are. But there are many who are just trying to keep the doors open and keep their employees with a job.

It telling to me that the market is not willing to bear the costs of what the potential employees are willing to work for (if they actually work once there, that's a whole different conversation). Its widespread, not isolated to asshole bosses. That tells me that there is price inelasticity in the market preventing raises to any real degree. There isn't some secret cabal of bosses worldwide colluding to keep wages low. You have to have a really high demand product to raise prices as fast as raw materials are increasing these days. My fear is that there will be a time when those who want jobs will have become bankrupt, and go to rind one but realize that there are none to be had because the input costs to the employers was too great to either keep the doors open or hire anyone else. If that tip-over occurs there will be a run for more social welfare and socialism to come right along with it.

ETA: by and large I am talking about small business owners here, not corporations.

Agree 100%

 

[Hobo Hilton]

It isn’t that straightforward. Customers are pulling back on their spending while the costs of goods to produce those end items are going up. Profits are taking an absolute beating. It’s not the fault of the workers at all, but volume becomes dependent on market share and if that’s shrinking it becomes a catch 22. An owner has a decision to make: pay what he can or close the doors. Closing the doors means no money for employees or their families. Which is better?

Every recession I survived had businesses closing their doors.
The one employer that has not cut back is the "Government".
I see nothing different during this recession.

 

[lariat]

Every recession I survived had businesses closing their doors.
The one employer that has not cut back is the "Government".
I see nothing different during this recession.

You dont suppose that all the money printed was to increase the departments and largess of the government do you? Kinda feels obvious, doesn't it?

 

[E. Bryant]

I wonder how much of that is due to automation increasing profits and decreasing the need for laborers?

It's hard to say, since there are so many transitory conditions and dislocations in the market. Generally speaking, I would have expected automation to be good for wages, just as mechanized farming increased earning power. But that hasn't occurred.

 

[SalomonQST99]

There isn't some secret cabal of bosses worldwide colluding to keep wages low.

Secret cabal, no. But US businessmen lobby congress to increase H1B visas to keep tech wages down. It's no different than when the Chinese were brought in to work on the railroads in the 1800's. Irish were brought in before them.
What happens to many of the H1B visa holders once they get their green card and fall out of tech? They become taxi and truck drivers. Why are we importing truck drivers?

 

[DustBun]

Depends on the circumstances, I lived with my parents until I was 27 with no issues and they didn’t make me pay rent. Instead I worked for 6 years after college as an engineer saving up so that instead of pissing away money renting or buying a starter home when I did move out it was into a 4 bedroom house that I plan to raise a family in.

Apparently that worked for you and I am glad for you.

What was expected of me was different and I never thought anything about it. I started earning money when I was 12, throwing papers, mowing yards, raking leaves, shoveling snow, even worked a few weeks for a traveling carnival. When I turned 16 I had to quit the swim team and get a job and get my own car and insurance. I was working 2 part time jobs and going to school my Junior and Senior year, 3 jobs during the summer. When I turned 18, and still in school, I was told I was a man now and had to make my own way so I had to pay some for rent and food while living at home. I never thought anything about it. Two weeks after I graduated High School I went in the Air Force because I had to make my own way. After I got out, I spent 12 years going to night school to get my 3 Engineering degrees, 1 Bachelors and 2 Associates, and get numerous certifications in the Int. Fluid Power Society, all while working full time jobs and moving because Mrs. Dustbun was still in the Air Force. Other than buying a mobile home that we bought when we first got married, I didn't buy a house until I was 42. There were some hard times but we made it on our own. One, there was no other option and two, that was what was expected of me. We made it to here on our own and it is a great feeling.

 

[lariat]

Secret cabal, no. But US businessmen lobby congress to increase H1B visas to keep tech wages down. It's no different than when the Chinese were brought in to work on the railroads in the 1800's. Irish were brought in before them.
What happens to many of the H1B visa holders once they get their green card and fall out of tech? They become taxi and truck drivers. Why are we importing truck drivers?

Correct, and in my opinion that is wrong except in the most extreme cases.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Secret cabal, no. But US businessmen lobby congress to increase H1B visas to keep tech wages down. It's no different than when the Chinese were brought in to work on the railroads in the 1800's. Irish were brought in before them.
What happens to many of the H1B visa holders once they get their green card and fall out of tech? They become taxi and truck drivers. Why are we importing truck drivers?

An older article since no company wants to post how many H1B's they hire. Doubtful the names of the companies have changed over the past 2 years.

The Top 15 Companies That Sponsor H1B Visas

It's the visa that allows international MBA talent to stay and work in the US after graduation. Find out the top companies that sponsor H-1B visas

www.businessbecause.com

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Apparently that worked for you and I am glad for you.

What was expected of me was different and I never thought anything about it. I started earning money when I was 12, throwing papers, mowing yards, raking leaves, shoveling snow, even worked a few weeks for a traveling carnival. When I turned 16 I had to quit the swim team and get a job and get my own car and insurance. I was working 2 part time jobs and going to school my Junior and Senior year, 3 jobs during the summer. When I turned 18, and still in school, I was told I was a man now and had to make my own way so I had to pay some for rent and food while living at home. I never thought anything about it. Two weeks after I graduated High School I went in the Air Force because I had to make my own way. After I got out, I spent 12 years going to night school to get my 3 Engineering degrees, 1 Bachelors and 2 Associates, and get numerous certifications in the Int. Fluid Power Society, all while working full time jobs and moving because Mrs. Dustbun was still in the Air Force. Other than buying a mobile home that we bought when we first got married, I didn't buy a house until I was 42. There were some hard times but we made it on our own. One, there was no other option and two, that was what was expected of me. We made it to here on our own and it is a great feeling.

I can only speak for myself - "You are preaching to the choir"... The choir is getting really small. As I was pulling weeds and saving seeds in my garden this morning I had some similar thoughts. Unfortunately between the Government and the changing culture the working people are pulling a very overloaded wagon.

 

[BytorJr]

I asked a similar question. I had to run into the office today (first time in about 6 months). Stopped by Costco on the way back. Place packed...10:15 in morning. Packed. Does anybody work? It's almost like people now have an unlimited amount of spending money - cars, houses, toys, etc and yet are not working (perceived) .

 

[Greasly]

Survey data suggests millions of people aren't working because of long COVID​

As the number of people with post-COVID symptoms soars, researchers and the government are trying to get a handle on how big an impact long COVID is having on the U.S. workforce. It's a pressing question, given the fragile state of the economy. For more than a year, employers have faced staffing problems, with jobs going unfilled month after month.

​

Help Wanted: Where Are The Workers?​

Now, millions of people may be sidelined from their jobs due to long COVID. Katie Bach, a senior fellow with the Brookings Institution, drew on survey data from the Census Bureau, the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis and the Lancet to come up with what she says is a conservative estimate: 4 million full-time equivalent workers out of work because of long COVID.

"That is just a shocking number," says Bach. "That's 2.4% of the U.S. working population."


That's an excerpt from a NPR business article 7/31/22. Even if you believe their "conservative estimate of 4 million " is complete b.s. 20% of that is still 800,000.

Dead people,while they might vote, are not productive workers. Though most of these people below were probably elderly.

For the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that excess deaths between the weeks ending March 7, 2020 and March 5, 2022 totaled 1,105,736, 15 percent more than the 958,864 official death toll from COVID-19 over that period.[



The excess mortality rate, or the percentage increase in excess deaths relative to expected deaths, differs significantly across States, from a low of 5.7 percent in Hawaii to a high of 27.4 percent in Arizona, as shown in Figure 2. These differences are large; if every State had had the same excess mortality rate as Hawaii, about 780,000 fewer people would have lost their lives over this period.

 

[brianf]

It's hard to say, since there are so many transitory conditions and dislocations in the market. Generally speaking, I would have expected automation to be good for wages, just as mechanized farming increased earning power. But that hasn't occurred.

i think in general it has been good for wages or more accurate what quality of life the wage allows

the products and quality of life, medical care etc available now "post mechanization", are 10x better than before

i think the issue becomes with modernization and mechanization the labor pool has not been agile and embraced the need for a different skillset.

complaining that the welding robot took away a decent wage from a welder while true as far as employee count on the floor, that same employee hasnt gone to night school and learned how to program that same robot and market himself as a knowledgeable tool increasing productivity because of experience.

if employees and employers there is no difference, sit still and your passed especially when considering modernization and the efficiencies/ cost reduction the competition may be exploiting.

Follow that line of thought; when the welding robots start showing up on site you would have credentials for a higher paying position. and the employer will mostly look to promote from within for continuity.

and employers waiting around for a master welder to show up for 25$ a hour while not looking to lease or finance a robot welder is at fault as well.

 

[Downzero]

It isn’t that straightforward. Customers are pulling back on their spending while the costs of goods to produce those end items are going up. Profits are taking an absolute beating. It’s not the fault of the workers at all, but volume becomes dependent on market share and if that’s shrinking it becomes a catch 22. An owner has a decision to make: pay what he can or close the doors. Closing the doors means no money for employees or their families. Which is better?

Who cares what I think as to which is better? All you're doing is saying that markets have both positive and negative feedback loop. If a business can't turn a profit, it should fail. If it can't obtain the labor it needs to produce a product at a profit, it should go under. People are not slaves and do not go to work for charity, they go to work to earn money to support their households. It is not a "Catch 22" that businesses have to pay all of the costs of the inputs to produce their goods or services.

Closing the doors for the employees and their families might be the greatest thing that ever happened to both of them. That inefficient and unprofitable businesses die and that their resources, including their employees, move on to more productive tasks that produce what people want and are able to buy is how capitalism functions. Your model, or at least the implication of what you're saying, would have us propping up businesses as "too big to fail" so that we could eliminate the negative feedback loop that poor profitability and inefficiency create. And I would submit that having profits crash and having inefficient businesses fail is at least as important as having them be successful, if not more so!

I don't know where the idea that this negative feedback loop is a bad thing got started. I can think of many businesses, like Sears, that were iconic pieces of America that there was a time in my life that I didn't think we could live without them. They're gone now, and all of their employees moved on to more productive and profitable tasks. Do I miss Sears? Obviously not. I didn't go there enough when they were open to keep them in business, and neither did everyone else. And that is fine--the hole they left is another opportunity.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

I asked a similar question. I had to run into the office today (first time in about 6 months). Stopped by Costco on the way back. Place packed...10:15 in morning. Packed. Does anybody work? It's almost like people now have an unlimited amount of spending money - cars, houses, toys, etc and yet are not working (perceived) .

Your observation could be somewhat regional. I have to go to Missoula to shop at Costco or Walmart. That is a 50 mile (one way) drive. I am hearing that shoppers are driving 100 miles (one way) to save some money. On the flip side, in So Cal seems the Costco's are no more than 20 miles apart. Those who are forced to drive long distances may only shop once every 2 months. Costco and Walmart have some big computers running to figure out how far a person is willing to travel to shop at their store. I have 3 small town grocery stores here. they too "run the numbers" and their prices are higher. I can't afford to make a 100 mile round trip for milk and bread. Local stores are adjusting inventory accordingly... Plenty of milk and bread on the shelves but only one option on a can of Chicken Noodle soup.

My "Conspiracy Theory" mind says the Deep State wants the population in mega cities because it would be easier to control. I get validation by watching the population migrate away from the mega cities.
JMHO

 

[Downzero]

Here is the problem in a nutshell:

Over the past two decades, real wages have been flat while GDP doubled and corporate profits have gone up by a factor of 4x. Virtually everything that people need to buy in order to live got more expensive over this period of time as well. So maybe don't be surprised if workers are using a tight labor environment as leverage, because they certainly haven't been on the receiving end of a square deal in a very long time.

"Real" wages account for inflation, so your second sentence is accounted for in the data set you cite. The general proposition is correct, that wages are stagnant and there's been no real increase in wages for much of the economy for 40 years is true for a large portion of our labor force. That firms have figured out how to negotiate a larger portion of what workers produce is certainly a major issue worth looking at in our time. I don't have a solution, either, and I am not some kind of radical egalitarian. But it's hard to look at the data and not wonder why workers didn't get more of what they produced in that time.

That said, CPI doesn't take into account the improvement in quality that happens over time, e.g., it regards a television as a television whether we're talking about a 1980 model or a 2020 model. A television in 2020 was not only far less expensive in real terms than 1980, it also had massive improvements in quality and performance that aren't captured by just looking at the inflation adjusted cost alone. So the situation isn't quite as dire as it seems, because even the same amount of inflation-adjusted income in 2020 buys you a way better lifestyle than it would have in 1980, and that's a good thing. But it could be MUCH better, and why that hasn't happened for the average worker (blue or white collar) is a mystery to me.

 

[lariat]

Who cares what I think as to which is better? All you're doing is saying that markets have both positive and negative feedback loop. If a business can't turn a profit, it should fail. If it can't obtain the labor it needs to produce a product at a profit, it should go under. People are not slaves and do not go to work for charity, they go to work to earn money to support their households. It is not a "Catch 22" that businesses have to pay all of the costs of the inputs to produce their goods or services.

Closing the doors for the employees and their families might be the greatest thing that ever happened to both of them. That inefficient and unprofitable businesses die and that their resources, including their employees, move on to more productive tasks that produce what people want and are able to buy is how capitalism functions. Your model, or at least the implication of what you're saying, would have us propping up businesses as "too big to fail" so that we could eliminate the negative feedback loop that poor profitability and inefficiency create. And I would submit that having profits crash and having inefficient businesses fail is at least as important as having them be successful, if not more so!

I don't know where the idea that this negative feedback loop is a bad thing got started. I can think of many businesses, like Sears, that were iconic pieces of America that there was a time in my life that I didn't think we could live without them. They're gone now, and all of their employees moved on to more productive and profitable tasks. Do I miss Sears? Obviously not. I didn't go there enough when they were open to keep them in business, and neither did everyone else. And that is fine--the hole they left is another opportunity.

You need to go back and reread my posts. I never said that bailing out business was the way to. That’s not a viable option. What I am talking about is the current situation for small business.

Here is a slide from a recent lecture. Doesn’t appear that the bailouts do any good at the macro level to begin with, if the Covid money is any real indication.

 

[Downzero]

You need to go back and reread my posts. I never said that bailing out business was the way to. That’s not a viable option. What I am talking about is the current situation for small business.

Here is a slide from a recent lecture. Doesn’t appear that the bailouts do any good at the macro level to begin with, if the Covid money is any real indication.

Again, you're moving the goal post. You asked which is better. The answer is that isn't up to either of us. It's up to the market to decide whether businesses succeed or fail.

 

[lariat]

Again, you're moving the goal post. You asked which is better. The answer is that isn't up to either of us. It's up to the market to decide whether businesses succeed or fail.

No argument there. My argument is that one side or the other will bend first. My bet is that it is the workers.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

No argument there. My argument is that one side or the other will bend first. My bet is that it is the workers.

The side to bend first will be the one cut off from the free Government money.

 

[AngryKoala]

Thanks for the reply . I thought 60k seemed low . I'm just trying to understand this whole job market craziness we have going on .

Back when the market was saturated they had people applying to technician roles with a doctorate. Right now it seems manual labor jobs and low skill jobs are having difficulty. There are some technical sectors that are having difficulty as well but competition still seems to be decent. Companies that are not willing to include inflation in their offers to potential workers are not being considered.

 

[supercorndogs]

I wonder how much of that is due to automation increasing profits and decreasing the need for laborers?

How does that chart line up with the increase in payroll taxes?

 

[Lightning8]

This is going to be hard to accept, but there are industries and markets where salary is- essentially- insignificant relative to other costs, including the opportunity cost of moving to a lower wage area…

I would be interested in you providing more details on these industries and markets - can you provide examples, please?

 

[Lightning8]

True. There used to be cheap power in the Pacific Northwest for the aluminum smelters. Rates were raised and smelters shut down. That power was hydro electric... Go figure.
Pulp and paper mills are the same. Located close to trees that are a renewable resource.
Commerce on the Mississippi River is similar.
Regional economics... Power, water, transportation, etc all come at a cost.
There are some giant computers running wide open figuring the spread sheets. The commodities futures are a good barometer now for what's to come in the next 12 months.

Pulp and Paper located close to trees - yes. Lots of trees = very rural. Pulp and Paper heavily regulated = no new integrated mills. Employees and families do not want to live in rural America. Current employees retire = cannot be replaced. Guess who is automating every possible process and dramatically reducing headcount with good paying union jobs never to be seen again.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Pulp and Paper located close to trees - yes. Lots of trees = very rural. Pulp and Paper heavily regulated = no new integrated mills. Employees and families do not want to live in rural America. Current employees retire = cannot be replaced. Guess who is automating every possible process and dramatically reducing headcount with good paying union jobs never to be seen again.

A new lumber mill is about as rare as a new refinery.... But, the same can be said for almost every other heavy industrial sector. Government rules and regulations have moved those industries offshore.
In 1960 a man with a high school diploma could get into most any Union Apprentice Program (Electrician, Steamfitter, Boilermaker, Carpenter, Millwright, etc). Lean a craft, raise a family, own a house and put kids through college without a student loan and retire with a pension. A look over the stern will tell you how far America has fallen.
I'm seeing more opportunities for young people willing to work in developing countries.

 

[Lightning8]

A new lumber mill is about as rare as a new refinery.... But, the same can be said for almost every other heavy industrial sector. Government rules and regulations have moved those industries offshore.
In 1960 a man with a high school diploma could get into most any Union Apprentice Program (Electrician, Steamfitter, Boilermaker, Carpenter, Millwright, etc). Lean a craft, raise a family, own a house and put kids through college without a student loan and retire with a pension. A look over the stern will tell you how far America has fallen.
I'm seeing more opportunities for young people willing to work in developing countries.

I was a degreed engineer serving as maintenance manager at a Southern Paper mill in the days of old - my skilled mechanics made as much as me and those that worked OT made significantly more. Those mechanics are retired now.

Lumber and building products is a boom and bust business. Finally capital is going into new building products facilities - lumber, OSB, etc - but again it is a rural America labor play - the new facilities are larger for economy of scale and highly automated because of the inability to sustain staffing.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

I've been reading a book off and on this summer, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck", and read an interesting chapter this week. I dropped a quote below from what I could find online from that chapter, but it touches on something that I've thought about before. I think that people today genuinely have unrealistic expectations for what their life should be like which is caused by the insanely deep exposure they have, via social media and the like, to people who's lives are absolutely extraordinary. Which makes people feel that if they aren't flying to Belize in a G5, then they're somehow not living a successful life.

“Being “average” has become the new standard of failure. The worst thing you can be is in the middle of the pack, the middle of the bell curve. When a culture’s standard of success is to “be extraordinary,” it then becomes better to be at the extreme low end of the bell curve than to be in the middle, because at least there you’re still special and deserve attention.”

For instance, I had the same bus driver for 14 years growing up. He also ran a tree cutting business on the side but I'm pretty sure he never left his bus route until he retired. Currently, my son's bus doesn't have a bus driver, because no one wants to drive a school bus. So, screw the single parent I guess (Me). The job is there, in fact there are many busses in the county that aren't running due to a driver shortage.

So, do people not want to drive a bus because the pay is bad? Is it too "average" of a job? Are they getting more assistance than a bus driver's salary?

What's wrong with being average anymore?

 

[AllenOne1]

A new lumber mill is about as rare as a new refinery.... But, the same can be said for almost every other heavy industrial sector. Government rules and regulations have moved those industries offshore.
In 1960 a man with a high school diploma could get into most any Union Apprentice Program (Electrician, Steamfitter, Boilermaker, Carpenter, Millwright, etc). Lean a craft, raise a family, own a house and put kids through college without a student loan and retire with a pension. A look over the stern will tell you how far America has fallen.
I'm seeing more opportunities for young people willing to work in developing countries.

Maybe in 1960 but when I got out of school in the late 70's the unions had such a bad reputation that I wouldn't even interview for a job at a union shop. They were a big part of destroying manufacturing in this country at that time in my opinion.

 

[Im2bent]

As the Boomers retire and leave the work force - there are few young people joining the work force from the bottom to begin to fill the void.

As long as young adults can still live in Mom and Dad's basement, mooch a few bucks, and borrow the car - there's no good reason to bother getting a real job. The fridge is always full. Mom does the laundry. The "Helicopter Parents" have absolutely destroyed their children's ability to stand on their own two feet by never forcing them from the nest like they were when they were young. Now their children don't know how to work, have no idea what work ethic even is, and have zero drive to go figure it out. Can we actually blame them? Would you be working if somebody paid your way and the heaviest thing you had to pick up was a game controller?

"Hey Mom! Don't forget to pickup another case of beer at the store!"

 

[hlee]

I would be interested in you providing more details on these industries and markets - can you provide examples, please?

Biotech. Predominantly sequestered in and around San Francisco, San Diego, The Research Triangle, and Boston. Salaries could be reduced by 20% or more by moving a company to a lower cost of living area. BUT, there is a huge opportunity cost in NOT being at the epicenter of the research. You may be doing amazing things in Clay Center Nebraska, but you are not drawing the best talent to the middle of nowhere- even with amazing cost of living and quality of life. It is an incestuous industry, where employees move from company A, to B, to C, to D, to B, to C, to A, to D, to E, etc. Even if salaries are higher in SF, it pays to be there because that is where the talent is. Move to Nevada and you reduce your pool of available talent- at any wage.

Laboratory personnel (as in 1 lab rat) can use $1000s of dollars worth of consumables- every day. Add in amortization of $1,000,000s of CapEx equipment, worker benefits, legal fees (someone has to write and defend those patents), etc and a 20% reduction (or increase) in salary is a rounding error. That's not to say that biotech salaries increase at 20% annually, or anything to that effect. The point is that some industries pay what they pay for wage/salary because the opportunity cost of not paying is too high.

 

[W54/XM-388]

For instance, I had the same bus driver for 14 years growing up. He also ran a tree cutting business on the side but I'm pretty sure he never left his bus route until he retired. Currently, my son's bus doesn't have a bus driver, because no one wants to drive a school bus. So, screw the single parent I guess (Me). The job is there, in fact there are many busses in the county that aren't running due to a driver shortage.

So, do people not want to drive a bus because the pay is bad? Is it too "average" of a job? Are they getting more assistance than a bus driver's salary?

Would you want to drive a school bus and be paid the same or less than you can get flipping burgers and have to put up with a ton of woke B.S. and have to worry about woke bastard children and their woke bastard parents getting you in trouble?
Not to mention putting up with all the school's vaccine and mask and everything else B.S. and all the indoctrination you are forced to go to?
Oh and you have to get a CDL and maintain it each year and such.

Lots of work for what you could get working for the burger joint...

 

[TurboTrout]

Your company sounds like the Government.

Employment in government rose by 57,000 in July but is below its February 2020 level by
597,000, or 2.6 percent. Over the month, employment increased by 37,000 in local government,
mostly in education (+27,000). Employment in local government is below its February 2020
level by 555,000, or 3.8 percent, with the losses split between the education and
non-education components.

While small businesses are struggling to get competent help at an affordable wage, the government can keep on hiring because they have no competition. Not only that but the Government can raise what it charges randomly... They have no budget.

An example:

U.S. Postal Service to temporarily hike prices for holiday season

The United States Postal Service filed a notice Wednesday of a temporary price hike for the 2022 peak holiday season.

www.cnbc.com

I’m no thief, the companies I work for are private sector, if you don’t like us you don’t have to pay us.

That being said, I ain’t a cheap date and even before covid I always thought interviewing was healthy, even if you’re not looking for a new job, it helps you know what the market will bear and who your other options are should they be needed.

When it comes to work I’m kinda like that scene in starship troopers



“I need a employer, you’re it, till you piss me off or I find someone better”

Thankfully I have had some great bosses, a few have become friends

 

[Lightning8]

Biotech. Predominantly sequestered in and around San Francisco, San Diego, The Research Triangle, and Boston. Salaries could be reduced by 20% or more by moving a company to a lower cost of living area. BUT, there is a huge opportunity cost in NOT being at the epicenter of the research. You may be doing amazing things in Clay Center Nebraska, but you are not drawing the best talent to the middle of nowhere- even with amazing cost of living and quality of life. It is an incestuous industry, where employees move from company A, to B, to C, to D, to B, to C, to A, to D, to E, etc. Even if salaries are higher in SF, it pays to be there because that is where the talent is. Move to Nevada and you reduce your pool of available talent- at any wage.

Laboratory personnel (as in 1 lab rat) can use $1000s of dollars worth of consumables- every day. Add in amortization of $1,000,000s of CapEx equipment, worker benefits, legal fees (someone has to write and defend those patents), etc and a 20% reduction (or increase) in salary is a rounding error. That's not to say that biotech salaries increase at 20% annually, or anything to that effect. The point is that some industries pay what they pay for wage/salary because the opportunity cost of not paying is too high.

Thanks. I worked in the opposite world (Pulp-Paper, Chemical) and the process is so capital intensive plus located close to raw materials and sites are located (can't move - relocate because cannot be permitted now). Trend we saw was "equipment expensive and labor cheap" to "technology cheap, labor expensive (unattainable)".

 

[Mike Casselton]

I've been reading a book off and on this summer, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck", and read an interesting chapter this week. I dropped a quote below from what I could find online from that chapter, but it touches on something that I've thought about before. I think that people today genuinely have unrealistic expectations for what their life should be like which is caused by the insanely deep exposure they have, via social media and the like, to people who's lives are absolutely extraordinary. Which makes people feel that if they aren't flying to Belize in a G5, then they're somehow not living a successful life.

“Being “average” has become the new standard of failure. The worst thing you can be is in the middle of the pack, the middle of the bell curve. When a culture’s standard of success is to “be extraordinary,” it then becomes better to be at the extreme low end of the bell curve than to be in the middle, because at least there you’re still special and deserve attention.”

For instance, I had the same bus driver for 14 years growing up. He also ran a tree cutting business on the side but I'm pretty sure he never left his bus route until he retired. Currently, my son's bus doesn't have a bus driver, because no one wants to drive a school bus. So, screw the single parent I guess (Me). The job is there, in fact there are many busses in the county that aren't running due to a driver shortage.

So, do people not want to drive a bus because the pay is bad? Is it too "average" of a job? Are they getting more assistance than a bus driver's salary?

What's wrong with being average anymore?

We have a bus driver shortage here too. Along with a shortage of 758 teachers in this county alone.

Would you drive a school bus for $15 an hour?
It's an easy job, but no way in hell would I put up with other people's kids for that kind of pay.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I’ve seen quite a few nurses leave the profession to work at stores. Same pay, no crazy dementia patients or family members to deal with.

 

[Lightning8]

We have a bus driver shortage here too. Along with a shortage of 758 teachers in this county alone.

Would you drive a school bus for $15 an hour?
It's an easy job, but no way in hell would I put up with other people's kids for that kind of pay.

Daughter works in Savannah GA school system (actually Chatham County). Shortage of bus drivers, teachers' aides, and teachers. Importing teachers from India on work visas! No shortage of high paid school administration jobs though. Teachers figured out they can make same money without all the hassle at Target, etc. Once the current crop of teachers retire out (those staying to get the retirement) - guess they will be home schooling in south GA.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Would you want to drive a school bus and be paid the same or less than you can get flipping burgers and have to put up with a ton of woke B.S. and have to worry about woke bastard children and their woke bastard parents getting you in trouble?
Not to mention putting up with all the school's vaccine and mask and everything else B.S. and all the indoctrination you are forced to go to?
Oh and you have to get a CDL and maintain it each year and such.

Lots of work for what you could get working for the burger joint...

Me? Hell no. Agree with your points completely.

My original point was that there was always someone who would put up with all the BS and drive the bus. Now there isn’t, so why?

 

[lariat]

So, are we really talking about two things: wages not keeping up with inflation and the degradation of society at all levels? Seems like that's what this thread is going. We can discuss wages, but if the second one is a root cause I'm really not sure how that gets fixed without some really hard times recalibrating everyone at all levels.

 

[Bigfatcock]

So, are we really talking about two things: wages not keeping up with inflation and the degradation of society at all levels? Seems like that's what this thread is going. We can discuss wages, but if the second one is a root cause I'm really not sure how that gets fixed without some really hard times recalibrating everyone at all levels.

I wouldn’t really blame it on the degradation of society. I’d say there are still plenty of high caliber people around.

I’ve spoken of this several times in several threads: The scamdemic showed people the value of their time. I believe people will work if the pay or work environment are worth it to them. Workers and businesses are at an impasse.

 

[AllenOne1]

Me? Hell no. Agree with your points completely.

My original point was that there was always someone who would put up with all the BS and drive the bus. Now there isn’t, so why?

In my mind driving a school bus has become a high risk job. You are responsible for the kids on your bus like you have always been but now if you have anything happen on your bus you are going to be sued personally. If there is a fight on the bus and you break it up you are in trouble, if you don't break it up you are in trouble. The kids are spoiled brats and it comes from the parents. It's a no win situation. People expect to get paid extra to work in a war zone.

 

[Snipe260]

We’ll that’s part of not being a fuck up parent.

Many breed but don’t think of the long game, if my kids can’t get a free ride into their school, damn straight I’ll pay for it, that’s what you’re signing up for being a parent, and I spend more on dumb toys than many non Ivy League school cost anyways.

That said I’ll pay for a career future for my kids, not hobby like the arts or some generic degree.

I’m old school I guess! If my kids worked their asses off to try and get that scholarship, and fell short, I’ll help them! I have 2 right now in college. I also made them get a loan for a chunk of the school! They gotta have skin in the game! My daughter also got a partial scholarship with a 4.3 gpa! Parents who fuckin give their kids all they want are enabling them! I see this as one of the major problems in America today! When you earn something yourself, you appreciate it much more. You do it your way turbo! I’ll do it mine! Mines worked out for me so far! Good grades! No drugs! Both work part time while going to school full time! I don’t spoil my fuckin kids!

 

[TurboTrout]

I’m old school I guess! If my kids worked their asses off to try and get that scholarship, and fell short, I’ll help them! I have 2 right now in college. I also made them get a loan for a chunk of the school! They gotta have skin in the game! My daughter also got a partial scholarship with a 4.3 gpa! Parents who fuckin give their kids all they want are enabling them! I see this as one of the major problems in America today! When you earn something yourself, you appreciate it much more. You do it your way turbo! I’ll do it mine! Mines worked out for me so far! Good grades! No drugs! Both work part time while going to school full time! I don’t spoil my fuckin kids!

So have them start off in debt so you can enjoy your newbalance shoes?


Odd move, I’d rather my kids be able to make decision and advance their career without having to make choices based on making payments. I mean so like get a new pickup ever couple years, or give a huge leg up to your kids.

Always thought old school was making the next generation better off than the last

When I went to school my parents helped me out, my friends parents didn’t, he got credit cards, loans, the first year or so in my industry is hell.

He knew he couldn’t make his payments on the first few years pay, so he took a different job to pay the loans practically off. Meantime I had no debt so I could jump into the pool with both feet.

I ended up being about 5yrs ahead of him and we both started and finished training at the same time (+/- few Mo), the earning potential for those years, plus the interest he paid, it was waaaaaay more than the tuition.

Sad part was his family could have paid for it and not taken a hit in their QOL.

 

[Snipe260]

So have them start off in debt so you can enjoy your newbalance shoes?


Odd move, I’d rather my kids be able to make decision and advance their career without having to make choices based on making payments. I mean so like get a new pickup ever couple years, or give a huge leg up to your kids.

Always thought old school was making the next generation better off than the last

When I went to school my parents helped me out, my friends parents didn’t, he got credit cards, loans, the first year or so in my industry is hell.

He knew he couldn’t make his payments on the first few years pay, so he took a different job to pay the loans practically off. Meantime I had no debt so I could jump into the pool with both feet.

I ended up being about 5yrs ahead of him and we both started and finished training at the same time (+/- few Mo), the earning potential for those years, plus the interest he paid, it was waaaaaay more than the tuition.

Sad part was his family could have paid for it and not taken a hit in their QOL.

All the fuckin sob stories why little Johnny can’t!. I went to school on a full athletic scholarship, which sweat and tears bought! Got injured and didn’t finish! Started a business with 350 fuckin dollars! No help from my parents or no one! In 2 years it was close to a 800 thousand dollar business! I worked non fuckin stop to get it there! I’m semi retired at fairly young age! So I don’t want to hear fuckin little Johnny can’t do it! I did!

 

[Hobo Hilton]

I've been reading a book off and on this summer, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck", and read an interesting chapter this week. I dropped a quote below from what I could find online from that chapter, but it touches on something that I've thought about before. I think that people today genuinely have unrealistic expectations for what their life should be like which is caused by the insanely deep exposure they have, via social media and the like, to people who's lives are absolutely extraordinary. Which makes people feel that if they aren't flying to Belize in a G5, then they're somehow not living a successful life.

“Being “average” has become the new standard of failure. The worst thing you can be is in the middle of the pack, the middle of the bell curve. When a culture’s standard of success is to “be extraordinary,” it then becomes better to be at the extreme low end of the bell curve than to be in the middle, because at least there you’re still special and deserve attention.”

For instance, I had the same bus driver for 14 years growing up. He also ran a tree cutting business on the side but I'm pretty sure he never left his bus route until he retired. Currently, my son's bus doesn't have a bus driver, because no one wants to drive a school bus. So, screw the single parent I guess (Me). The job is there, in fact there are many busses in the county that aren't running due to a driver shortage.

So, do people not want to drive a bus because the pay is bad? Is it too "average" of a job? Are they getting more assistance than a bus driver's salary?

What's wrong with being average anymore?

Being judged by your peers is degrading to many.... Those that grasp and practice the theme of your book ""The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck" do not allow a label to alter their course in life. When a person hones their skills and get's better at a job / task / sport they have risen above average and life gets much more interesting.

Thanks for sharing.

So, are we really talking about two things: wages not keeping up with inflation and the degradation of society at all levels? Seems like that's what this thread is going. We can discuss wages, but if the second one is a root cause I'm really not sure how that gets fixed without some really hard times recalibrating everyone at all levels.

I agree about the "root cause"... The longer time goes on before "re calibration" the more severe re calibration will be.
America can't vote itself out of this mess.

 

[Bigfatcock]

You know, you don’t have to go to college to build a living.

I will be forever grateful to my high school guidance counselor. He said “You’re probably going to go to jail.”, and didn’t even give me the military recruiter’s number. He saved me so much money.

 

[Lightning8]

I wouldn’t really blame it on the degradation of society. I’d say there are still plenty of high caliber people around.

I’ve spoken of this several times in several threads: The scamdemic showed people the value of their time. I believe people will work if the pay or work environment are worth it to them. Workers and businesses are at an impasse.

I think in the case of jobs that interact directly with the public like teachers, bus drivers, retail, and similar - the "degradation of society" shows people not only the value of their time but the risk of daily interaction with a society that does not enforce basic morals and behavior. Similarly, large organizations like corporate America, the military, governments of all size, and so forth have caused many Americans to measure the value of their time versus a "woke" environment.

 

[Snipe260]

So have them start off in debt so you can enjoy your newbalance shoes?


Odd move, I’d rather my kids be able to make decision and advance their career without having to make choices based on making payments. I mean so like get a new pickup ever couple years, or give a huge leg up to your kids.

Always thought old school was making the next generation better off than the last

When I went to school my parents helped me out, my friends parents didn’t, he got credit cards, loans, the first year or so in my industry is hell.

He knew he couldn’t make his payments on the first few years pay, so he took a different job to pay the loans practically off. Meantime I had no debt so I could jump into the pool with both feet.

I ended up being about 5yrs ahead of him and we both started and finished training at the same time (+/- few Mo), the earning potential for those years, plus the interest he paid, it was waaaaaay more than the tuition.

Sad part was his family could have paid for it and not taken a hit in their QOL.

I’m really all about this turbo! If a child is doing their part! I’ll do all I can to help em! If not, no dice. Make good decisions, reap the reward! Bad choices get nowhere with me! I made plenty my self and overcame them with hard work! Makes me appreciate it more now and think it built a little character and common sense along the way!

 

[Snipe260]

You know, you don’t have to go to college to build a living.

I will be forever grateful to my high school guidance counselor. He said “You’re probably going to go to jail.”, and didn’t even give me the military recruiter’s number. He saved me so much money.

But what about us Bastids that don’t have a big fat cock!

 

[supercorndogs]

I've been reading a book off and on this summer, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck", and read an interesting chapter this week. I dropped a quote below from what I could find online from that chapter, but it touches on something that I've thought about before. I think that people today genuinely have unrealistic expectations for what their life should be like which is caused by the insanely deep exposure they have, via social media and the like, to people who's lives are absolutely extraordinary. Which makes people feel that if they aren't flying to Belize in a G5, then they're somehow not living a successful life.

“Being “average” has become the new standard of failure. The worst thing you can be is in the middle of the pack, the middle of the bell curve. When a culture’s standard of success is to “be extraordinary,” it then becomes better to be at the extreme low end of the bell curve than to be in the middle, because at least there you’re still special and deserve attention.”

For instance, I had the same bus driver for 14 years growing up. He also ran a tree cutting business on the side but I'm pretty sure he never left his bus route until he retired. Currently, my son's bus doesn't have a bus driver, because no one wants to drive a school bus. So, screw the single parent I guess (Me). The job is there, in fact there are many busses in the county that aren't running due to a driver shortage.

So, do people not want to drive a bus because the pay is bad? Is it too "average" of a job? Are they getting more assistance than a bus driver's salary?

What's wrong with being average anymore?

Bus route pay sucks balls. i don't know what stature you are in but all incoming bus drivers in colorado have a bunch of new qualification and record keeping requirements, much like CDL truck drivers. Thats why they can't fill bus driver positions here. They made the requirements not worth it for the pay. Same with teaching, plenty of warm bodies that could do it, half of them probably have degrees, but there are is a lot more you have to do to get a "teaching license." When some starts talking, you should have to have a license to do this the fix in.