Rifle Scopes Which Crossover Scope would you choose?

[Glassaholic]

This is a poll to help identify what might be some of the most sought after crossover style scopes, but let's define what type of crossover scope I'm trying to address here. Let's say you'd like a good scope for hunting big game but also like to go shoot steel to 1000 yards give or take using the same rifle. What type of scope would you be looking for (whether existing or something that hasn't hit the market yet). Let's use the following as some criteria in no particular order:

• A scope that can be at home on a hunting rifle as well as a long range rifle (this is not a dedicated competition scope)
• Magnification no greater than 4.5x at the bottom end (nothing wrong with putting a 5-25 or higher optic on your hunting rig but it really limits the functionality for many)
• Magnification of 15x or higher at top end
• FFP (sorry, SFP has very limited use for dynamic shooting environments and is not viable in this category)
• Decent FOV (scopes with wide field of view definitely have an advantage here, but should have minimal edge distortion)
• A lighter scope is preferred (shouldn't be over 35oz and preferably under 30oz)
• Have a reticle that works at bottom mag as well as top mag (this is where many FFP scopes today fail)
• Illumination that is daylight bright (can be seen under bright sunlight conditions)
• Exposed elevation turret (you have to be able to dial for distance)
• Capped or locking windage turret
• Objective no smaller than 42mm but still function excellent in low light
• Be forgiving with eyebox
• Be forgiving with DOF
• Be forgiving with parallax
• Have really good IQ with well defined contrast and clarity (doesn't have to be alpha class but not Chinese either)

I wanted to throw in a few other options in the poll but I was limited on how many options to provide, so pick the closest to what you would choose.

****************************************************************************​

Something else I'd like to know, in what order would you rank the following criteria and how much it plays a role in your choice for the above crossover scope:

• Large magnification range (examples would be the 8x scopes like March and NF NX8)
• Short magnification range (this would be your traditional 4x and 5x scopes)
• Mid magnification range (something around 6x is where you'd like to be)
• Weight under 35oz
• Weight under 30oz
• Weight under 25oz
• Objective size 56mm (the bigger the better)
• Objective size 50mm (middle of the road is best of both worlds)
• Objective size 42/44mm (smaller objective is worth the trade off to reduce weight and/or streamline the scope)
• Brightest image possible (shooting at dawn/dusk is crucial for you)
• Shorter scope length (this rig is also used for night hunting with NV/Thermal clip-on)
• Forgiving Eyebox
• Forgiving DOF
• Forgiving Parallax
• Exposed elevation turret
• Capped windage turret
• Locking turrets
• Well designed reticle that works at lowest mag and highest mag
• Tree reticle (nice not to have to dial in certain situations)
• Non-tree reticle (keep it clean)
• Daylight bright illumination
• Wide FOV
• IQ, contrast and clarity (what many of us refer to as "pop")
• Control of CA (the less chromatic aberration the better)
• I'm sure I'm forgetting something so feel free to add other important factors for you

Given the above ranking (in your order) what would be the "ideal" crossover scope for you if it doesn't already exist today?

Spreadsheet of scopes that meet the following criteria:

• FFP Hash Reticle
• 4.5x or less at bottom magnification
• 15x or more at top magnification
• Weigh 30 ounces or less (preferably under 28oz)
• Length less than 14 inches (preferably under 13.5")
• Not manufactured in China (if you need to ask you haven't been paying attention)

I have ordered these by bottom magnification at far left and increasing up to 4.5x on far right

 

[Glassaholic]

Here's my example

For me personally, this is how I would rank and what I would choose:

1. IQ, contrast and clarity - look at my user name, I kind of get obsessed about good glass
2. Well designed reticle that works at lowest mag and highest mag - this alone causes me to pass over many options today!
3. Forgiving Eyebox
4. Forgiving DOF
5. Forgiving Parallax
6. Wide FOV - you can't shoot what you can't see, but edge to edge sharpness takes priority
7. Control of CA - I hate purple fringing! Not only does it distract but it takes away from micro-contrast
8. Exposed elevation turret - I've got to be able to dial
9. Objective size 56mm - low light is king because missing a shot on a trophy at dawn or dusk is not acceptable
10. Brightest image possible (shooting at dawn/dusk is crucial for you) - goes with the above but also applies to good glass
11. Weight under 35oz - I'm willing to sacrifice weight in order to get the objective and mag range I'd like
12. Shorter scope length (this rig is also used for night hunting with NV/Thermal clip-on)
13. Mid magnification range - I think 6x is a happy medium between not too much and not too little but 5x works too
14. Locking turrets - I prefer Schmidt DTII+ and March Shuriken style locking mechanism the best, push/pull is not my favorite
15. Tree reticle - but only where the tree is unobtrusive
16. Daylight bright illumination - this is more important if the reticle is not that usable at low magnification

Given the above ranking (in your order) what would be the "ideal" crossover scope for you if it doesn't already exist today?
The Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 is close, but could use a few improvements. I'd love to see a true alpha class 3.3-20x56 that meets all the above criteria.

 

[YotaEer]

I say this all the time, but my ideal scope would be a Gen 2 razor AMG

5-30x. 30mm tube, 30 oz. Same zero system and glass as the Gen 3 razor 6-36x.

Killed multiple deer in thick woods under 50 yards with the the 6-24x AMG, so better FOV and less mag would only make that easier.

 

[Glassaholic]

I say this all the time, but my ideal scope would be a Gen 2 razor AMG

5-30x. 30mm tube, 30 oz. Same zero system and glass as the Gen 3 razor 6-36x.

Killed multiple deer in thick woods under 50 yards with the the 6-24x AMG, so better FOV and less mag would only make that easier.

I've been hoping for a 4-20x50 AMG for a very long time so I hear you. Out of curiosity, why would you choose 5-30 and not 4-20?

 

[VandelayIndustries]

Mine would be a LRHS with the G2H. .2 windage marks. Locking windage. Slightly larger fov. Mag range in that 2-12 or maybe 2.5-15. Illuminate just inside the donut and the donut itself.

 

[A.Redd]

Riflescopes – Hunting – 3-18x42 – NEW

www.schmidtundbender.de

This scope in FFP, and an enhanced mildot reticle would be a dream. I’m assuming it has a fire dot illumination system.

 

[Glassaholic]

Mine would be a LRHS with the G2H. .2 windage marks. Locking windage. Slightly larger fov. Mag range in that 2-12 or maybe 2.5-15. Illuminate just inside the donut and the donut itself.

I loved the LRHS's, they were phenomenal scopes that struggled to sell because they were traditional 4x long bodied scopes when everyone was wanting 5x or higher in a short body without fully understanding what compromises that brings. The only reason I sold my LRTS 4.5-18x44 was because I felt the Vortex LHT 4.5-22x50 was slightly better in higher mags and offered a little more for less weight. If Bushnell brought back the LRHS with 6x erector in a 3-18x44 that was around 13.5" and under 28oz I think I would be very interested... hmmm, now that I think about that, Primary Arms just came out with a GLx 3-18x44 which sounds like it could be a great option for the price being made in the Philippines but offering excellent glass for the price, I just wish it weighed a wee bit less.

 

[FuhQ]

I didn't see 3.3-18x50 on there (Burris XTR-III SCR 2). I find the SCR 2 would make a great crossover reticle and the glass is plenty clear enough to hunt with, even at distance. Weight, length, FFP, great reticle, good glass, and overall size make it a fairly formidable opponent in the crossover arena, as well... In my opinion.

 

[Glassaholic]

I didn't see 3.3-18x50 on there (Burris XTR-III SCR 2). I find the SCR 2 would make a great crossover reticle and the glass is plenty clear enough to hunt with, even at distance. Weight, length, FFP, great reticle, good glass, and overall size make it a fairly formidable opponent in the crossover arena, as well... In my opinion.

I originally included it but had to give up some space to others and was close enough to 3.5-18x50. I think the SCR2 is great for mid to top mag work but not a fan of it at low mag. The 3.3-18x50 is one of my most recommended scopes when someone is on a budget and looking for something under 30oz.

 

[FuhQ]

I originally included it but had to give up some space to others and was close enough to 3.5-18x50. I think the SCR2 is great for mid to top mag work but not a fan of it at low mag. The 3.3-18x50 is one of my most recommended scopes when someone is on a budget and looking for something under 30oz.

I'll agree with that. It can be a bit thin at low mag. I've noticed this on my XTR-III 5.5-30x56. The XTR-III really is a lot of scope for the money. I used to snub at Burris for decades, but after owning a couple, I'm a believer in the XTR line.

 

[YotaEer]

I've been hoping for a 4-20x50 AMG for a very long time so I hear you. Out of curiosity, why would you choose 5-30 and not 4-20?

I feel that giving up only 1x on the low end, with a high FOV design like the AMG, is worth it for the extra mag on top.

The 5-30x would be my ideal scope for mixed use of steel and all types of hunting (varmint and big game) but adding a 3-18x AMG2 would also be great.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

Glass, I'm in agreement with just about everything in your list. Two things different for me: need lower end magnification and I'd want it a little lighter 30oz max (although not a deal breaker).

So far my favorite scope has been the Gen 2 Razor HD 3-18x. Great scope but it needs a diet big time. If they could make that scope 30 oz max I'd be happy. My Zeiss S5 is nice too but I haven't used it enough yet to dethrone the Razor G2 as my favorite.

 

[Glassaholic]

I feel that giving up only 1x on the low end, with a high FOV design like the AMG, is worth it for the extra mag on top.

The 5-30x would be my ideal scope for mixed use of steel and all types of hunting (varmint and big game) but adding a 3-18x AMG2 would also be great.

Valid points. Thats why I had the Minox ZP5 5-25x56 on my main hunting rig for so long. Previously I had the AMG 6-24 but felt the extra FOV the ZP5 offered along with 56mm objective for only a few ounces more was worth it. But that was when I lived in Colorado and knew many opportunities come at distance, now that I’m a Florida jungle mutt I have to consider greater FOV

 

[Glassaholic]

Glass, I'm in agreement with just about everything in your list. Two things different for me: need lower end magnification and I'd want it a little lighter 30oz max (although not a deal breaker).

So far my favorite scope has been the Gen 2 Razor HD 3-18x. Great scope but it needs a diet big time. If they could make that scope 30 oz max I'd be happy. My Zeiss S5 is nice too but I haven't used it enough yet to dethrone the Razor G2 as my favorite.

I waiver back and forth between smaller/lighter. Years ago I told myself that a crossover scope had to be under 30oz but got frustrated with the lack of options so bumped up my max to 35oz which opened doors to a whole new world of opportunities. At the end of the day a crossover scope is whatever you want it to be, if you want to put a 15-60 comp scope on your 375 H&H then more power to ya

You bring up an interesting point with the Razor G2 3-18 and it weighing a metric tonne. If memory serves, the 3-18 was announced with the 4.5-27 or shortly thereafter. The G3 6-36 was announced a while ago now but no word on any 3-18ish replacement. My guess is the G2 3-18 struggled to sell, the 4.5-27 was pretty much a competition scope and weight wasn’t a huge concern but 3-18 is a different story. Not the best option for crossover use and not really appealing for gas guns either left a very small market opportunity for this scope. I can’t imagine Vortex is going to abandon this mid-range market but I think they know it has to go on a diet so I think the design is just taking longer for a G3 3-18 or possibly the AMG team is working on the AMG II which hopefully has a lower mag starting point and it wouldn't make sense to offer two scopes with similar design and price point. This is purely conjecture.

 

[noremorse92]

A revamp of the NXS compact scopes with a 2-10 power range, a x32 and a x42 obj like before, FFP option, illumination/parallax adjustment on both models, updated glass for 2023, locking ZS elevation turret, capped windage and keep a 20-22oz weight.

I dont really need any more for a simple, general purpose, bombproof scope that you can put on just about anything and hit stuff from 10yds to 1000yds.

 

[Birddog6424]

I originally included it but had to give up some space to others and was close enough to 3.5-18x50. I think the SCR2 is great for mid to top mag work but not a fan of it at low mag. The 3.3-18x50 is one of my most recommended scopes when someone is on a budget and looking for something under 30oz.

I have the 3.3-18x50 and 5.5-30x56 illuminated XTRIIIs, both on hunting rifles. I had no issues last or this year at lower magnification in hunting scenarios with the thicker reticle of the illuminated models.

I get it if someone simply prefers a fat black reticle. But these are entirely functional with no issues seeing them. Especially with red and green selectable illumination.

I think between the two though, I like my 30x best. I like the size and compactness of the 18x, but I do like the 56mm objective and the horsepower better on the 30x. That's what I have on my 300 Norma elk rifle. My tag is already open and I was using it on 30x as my "spotter" last weekend. All I had were 10x Steiner binos to look at an elk herd 2100 yards away. The 30x was nice to have.

 

[BigJimFish]

I guess the short answer is that I think generally the Mark 5's are the best crossover scopes out there. Mark 5's basically give up nothing on the precision rifle side while coming in at crazy low weight and a turret design that manages to well serve users all the way from competition to hunting. Given the mag range and size your looking at, the 3.6-18x44 model fits your bill best and I expect that is probably the most popular power range for most folks the hunting side of the crossover crowd with the precision rifle side probably favoring the 5-25x56.

Of your options mentioned, the things I care about most in a crossover are:
1) Weight, the lighter the better. That Mark 5 3.6-18x44 is 26 oz. As you mentioned, few other options even make it below 30oz. 26oz is really light.
2) Image quality. It's hard to specify this more precisely as a good optical design is about balancing many of the optical performance factors we rate.
3) Turret design, preferably exposed and locking with a good design.
4) Objective on the smaller size, I just don't think the extra light is generally worth the bulk and weight.

 

[farwest]

Thank you BigJimFish. Finally a good word for Leupold Mark 5's. I love my Mark 5 illuminated PR-1 (#180725). Leupold doesn't have much available to me in the illuminated 5x25x56's, so I really like the Zeiss S3 4x25x50. The Leupold PR-1 & PR-2 Mil 5x25x56 are good scopes, but the illumination models are never available on the VIP web page. For those people that have to pay for their equipment, out the door prices are important.

 

[psinclair]

Tangent Theta 3-15X50M with a GenII reticle.....

Easy choice for me.

 

[Nortex]

Currently run a 3-15x50 premier heritage and have been really happy. It’s maybe a touch heavy for most but it’s a great do all.

 

[rlsmith1]

Some type of 2.5-15 or 2-12 would have been my choice. The 8x erector in the NX8 is super nice but brings some compromise (and hopefully 6x could shave some weight).

I had a MK5 3.6-18 and absolutely loved everything about it (locking turrets, weight, size, 18x, forgiving parallax) except the low end FOV. I hung at night enough that I’ve been running an NX8 recently although it is a less forgiving design (that’s not to say the NX8 is a bad scope, I really like it too).

A well executed 3-15 would probably do the trick for me, but a TT just isn’t in the cards right now

 

[YotaEer]

I guess the short answer is that I think generally the Mark 5's are the best crossover scopes out there. Mark 5's basically give up nothing on the precision rifle side while coming in at crazy low weight and a turret design that manages to well serve users all the way from competition to hunting. Given the mag range and size your looking at, the 3.6-18x44 model fits your bill best and I expect that is probably the most popular power range for most folks the hunting side of the crossover crowd with the precision rifle side probably favoring the 5-25x56.

Of your options mentioned, the things I care about most in a crossover are:
1) Weight, the lighter the better. That Mark 5 3.6-18x44 is 26 oz. As you mentioned, few other options even make it below 30oz. 26oz is really light.
2) Image quality. It's hard to specify this more precisely as a good optical design is about balancing many of the optical performance factors we rate.
3) Turret design, preferably exposed and locking with a good design.
4) Objective on the smaller size, I just don't think the extra light is generally worth the bulk and weight.

Mk5 are also an excellent scope. As you noted, an overall great design. If they had an illuminated pr2 (without an obscene upcharge) I would still have them.

 

[stanley_white]

While I have not used it in a crossover manner, my U.S. Optics Foundation 3.2-17x50mm with MPR reticle would likely fit the bill as the reticle is equally usable at both ends of magnification.

-Stan

 

[DJL2]

I sort of voted my wallet and my past purchases versus my wishes to some extent... 3-15, 4-20, 4.5-22. More zoom range is nice, but I'm not sold on its necessity (particularly when value / cost is considered). To the rankings...

GO/NOGO:
- Under 30 oz
- At least 3.8" of eye relief
- locking elevation, locking or capped windage
- reticle legible/functional at low light AND low magnification
- mrad

Preferences:
1. Under 25 oz
2. 4 inches of eye relief
3. 5x or better zoom range
4. Reticle clean; floating dot, open top, .2 mrad hash (unobtrusive tree if it's there)
5. Forgiving "eye box" for use in less than perfect positions
6. FoV
7. DoF
8. Parallax
9. Low light performance (base line adequacy assumed for GO above)
10. IQ
11. Control of CA / stray light handling
.
.
.
.
.
.
XX. all the rest; my rule here is "ask for capability, not assets." I'm not going to tell you how to skin the cat, but I expect my General Tso's to be delicious none the less. I want a scope that works well in field conditions... and if the glass is something to brag about, that's nice too. There are a shit ton of good/great scopes in the 33-45 ounce range that run the performance gamut.

 

[ma smith]

± 2.5-12x
<24 oz
±42mm

But also

Drop-proof. Nothing matters if it doesn't track.

Usabilty. Eyebox, FOV, focus/parallax. Elite performance.

These last bits are "hard", but required.

Just my $0.02

 

[ExtremeMemer]

I am looking for this type of scope for a 308 AR10. The AR10 is a LMT MWS, so weight is a big concern. I am not tied to a specific magnification range, but rather I am looking for the best product that fits my needs. If money were no object I would get a ZCO 4-20. However, money is an object so I will likely get the ATACR 4-16. I am interested in the Tremor 3 reticle which narrows down the field a bit. I also looked at the Leupold Mk5 but I heard that it has CA at higher magnification.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

3-15x50. 5x erector is perfect IMO as there’s few compromises. 3x is enough on the low end and 15x is enough on the top.

FFP, tree illuminated reticle with floating dot, parallax, compact as it can be without making image DOF and eye box fucky, definitely under 30oz but under 25oz if it can get good reliability, 10 mil turrets, zero stop, don’t give a shit if it locks or not, toolless turrets nice but not required, capped windage, 30mm tube, diopter with lock ring, eyepiece doesn’t rotate with magnification.

Daytime bright illumination means nothing to me on an optic like this, but low settings for low light hunting does.

I would buy a few of those if someone made them decent under $2500 and not in a third world shithole or china.

 

[adavis1138]

I am looking for this type of scope for a 308 AR10. The AR10 is a LMT MWS, so weight is a big concern. I am not tied to a specific magnification range, but rather I am looking for the best product that fits my needs. If money were no object I would get a ZCO 4-20. However, money is an object so I will likely get the ATACR 4-16. I am interested in the Tremor 3 reticle which narrows down the field a bit. I also looked at the Leupold Mk5 but I heard that it has CA at higher magnification.

The mk5 can have bad CA at low mag too.

 

[WILLSMITH030382]

I really like the vortex razor lht 4.5-22 but I feel like it could be improved. Make it a razor lht 2.5-15 and give it a rotary illumination knob in ffp with low elevation turrets and would buy multiples of it !

 

[drew hopkinth]

@Glassaholic I know it doesn’t hit the high end magnification requirements but what’re your thoughts on the 3-12x50 PMII?

 

[StrayDog]

ZCO 4-20 has become my favorite all-purpose. I would be interested in a Khales DLR 3-18x50 if it beat the ZCO in FOV tho...

 

[Glassaholic]

@Glassaholic I know it doesn’t hit the high end magnification requirements but what’re your thoughts on the 3-12x50 PMII?

The "old" 3-12's were fantastic designs overall, PM II, Kahles 3-12, Hensoldt, even the Bushnell LRHS all seemed to perform very well, but as I mentioned in the opening post these scopes got looked over a few years ago in favor of all the new high erector short bodies. Now, I feel the shooting community is realizing that short body/high erector designs have too many compromises (for some) if you're looking for pure optical performance and I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing some of these older designs get a few facelifts and come back to market. But as someone mentioned above, the industry does not like the perception of going backwards so not sure how that might play out. However, if you look at the new Schmidt & Bender 6-36x56 this is a brand new 6x design that is apparently just as good, if not better, than many older 5x and 4x designs so if manufacturers begin capitalizing on this new formula, maybe we can see some 6x scopes that perform just as good as a 4x. Imagine a 3-18 performing just as good if not better than an older 3-12 design...

 

[steve123]

We've already got our nice PRS style scopes with thin reticles so staying within the theme of "crossover". Meaning it's not what we normally use for competition but if needed it'd work in a pinch.

It's easier just to say I don't want compromise to the extreme or in other words, not too short, not too this and not too ... everything, however it needs to be somewhat lightweight. I've had the extremes and they've got enough faults optically it isn't something I want to have anymore.

This with a reasonably thick-ish mil holdover reticle and center dot. Maybe .07 mil lines and 1.5 mil center dot. If you can't make out the reticle on lowest magnification then why bother, right?!

I like those sloped tapered outside reticle bars that point to the middle which would help on low mag for quick shooting.

For me there's no need for more than 5 mils of holdover or holdoff because by then I'll be dialing the solution. Heck my 6mmBR gets me to 850y at 5 mils with a 100y zero.

Definitely daylight bright illume.

For sure NO lackluster turrets and none of this 6 mil or 12 mil per turn nonsense. Wide locking 10 mil elevation is just fine thanks. I could live with capped windage.

2.8-16.8x48??

Although not the most ideal magnification for long range I can still hit stuff using 12x out to 1122y using a Athlon Helos G2 2-12 and that huge .3mil center dot so 16.8 should be more than fine.

And KILLER glass!!

 

[Glassaholic]

In hindsight my post was a bit unfair, I offered way too many options to choose from. It's like going into a car dealership and they bring out the war and peace novel to tell you about all the options and they nickel and dime you until your base Toyota now costs more than the Lexus you wanted to begin with Seriously, I knew going into this that we'd be all over the board, and to a degree, that was the point, we all have a different idea of what would be "ideal" for us, whether you are an NRL Hunter competitor, a hunter who just wants to have fun ringing steel or what have you.

But I am definitely getting a common theme - great glass, but lighter weight with a usable reticle. My reviews started over a decade ago on the Hide when I asked the question about a lightweight, lowlight tactical scope and at the time wanted something under 30oz. There was not much at all to choose from and now just over ten years later, sure, we have a few more options but still not much to choose from.

The challenge for any manufacturer is to determine what is going to appeal to the market, which in turn leads to sales and higher ROI. But it's a bit like playing roulette with what will actually appeal.

I know the ZCO 2-16 thread has gained a lot of traction over the past couple years, but only because everyone thinks they would like this design until they actually saw it optically. To make a FFP 2-16 perform close to their 4-20 it's likely the 2-16 would have to be 16" long and probably weigh 40oz - now how many shooters would actually want that? Their 1.7-12x50 (only available in Europe) is an interesting concept and makes for a decent (albeit heavy) MPVO option, but I see crossover as being the next magnification level up from MPVO. It seems there are too many compromises with an 8x erector but the 6x erector seems to be perfected on many fronts and when done well offers little compromise over 5x and even some 4x designs.

 

[DJL2]

I think perhaps THE distinguishing characteristic is weight - it's putting the feature set of a modern FFP, mil/mil, tactical/target scope into a hunk of glass that doesn't suck more than necessary to carry for the sake of those features. It's also coupled with an understanding that field use means low light and low magnification as well as compromised shooting positions (though modern positional comps do that pretty well) more so than teeny-tiny reticle features that look nice over 20x.

If you're running a rig where you can afford, or will absolutely suck up, an additional 8-16 ounces on the scope there are a HUGE number of high-performance optics from 30 ounces to 40+ ounces. Pick your poison, get out your wallet. That's NOT the crossover market in my mind... that's the, pardon the phrasing, "zero compromise" market.

 

[beetroot]

I voted 3-20 and 4-20, 3.5-21 is probably my favorite mag range though.

Mag range should be a max of 4x on the low end and a min of 20x on the high end.
Objective could be anywhere from 44-56mm IMO, so long as the weight is less than 26oz.

I sent Leupold an email probably 5 years ago now asking them to make a FFP 4-20x50 VX5hd, with a decent Mil reticle this would be near perfect.
Low weight, capped wind, good FOV, good (enough) glass, 30mm tube, locking elevation turret.

In perfect Leupold fashion they did release a 4-20 but SFP, MOA, made it a 34mm tube, and gained a few more ounces tham they needed to.

 

[Glassaholic]

I keep forgetting about the new Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44. Under 28oz and 12.7 in length. Biggest question is on the reticle. I think I will try to compile a list of FFP scopes under 30oz and see if that helps identify the gaps, theres some new ones on the market now.

 

[Glassaholic]

I voted 3-20 and 4-20, 3.5-21 is probably my favorite mag range though.

Mag range should be a max of 4x on the low end and a min of 20x on the high end.
Objective could be anywhere from 44-56mm IMO, so long as the weight is less than 26oz.

I sent Leupold an email probably 5 years ago now asking them to make a FFP 4-20x50 VX5hd, with a decent Mil reticle this would be near perfect.
Low weight, capped wind, good FOV, good (enough) glass, 30mm tube, locking elevation turret.

In perfect Leupold fashion they did release a 4-20 but SFP, MOA, made it a 34mm tube, and gained a few more ounces tham they needed to.

Hey, they could have made it a 35mm tube

 

[Hoody2shoes]

I was very happy with the razor lht 4.5-22. Not the best at any one thing but incredibly light and I liked the reticle.

 

[beetroot]

I keep forgetting about the new Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44. Under 28oz and 12.7 in length. Biggest question is on the reticle. I think I will try to compile a list of FFP scopes under 30oz and see if that helps identify the gaps, theres some new ones on the market now.

Based on my experience with the Stryker 4.5-30 I'm not holding my breath on the reticle.
It might be fairly visible on 3.5x as my one is pretty good on 4.5x.

But the whole cross thing for .5 and .2mil holds isn't something I like at all, it's just not very intuitive especially under tme pressure.
I think you'd end up just using it as a .5mil reticle 99% of the time.

I

 

[RayDBonz]

Did you just describe a 4.5-28x52 scope?

 

[Dobermann]

• I'm sure I'm forgetting something so feel free to add other important factors for you

Given the above ranking (in your order) what would be the "ideal" crossover scope for you if it doesn't already exist today?

Bill, not sure you mentioned reliability ... so putting that out there as #1.

Guessing you've seen this thread:

Trijicon Tenmile 3-18x44mm FFP mil/mil Field Eval - https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/trijicon-tenmile-3-18x44mm-ffp-mil-mil-field-eval.252003/​

 

[Glassaholic]

Bill, not sure you mentioned reliability ... so putting that out there as #1.

Guessing you've seen this thread:

Trijicon Tenmile 3-18x44mm FFP mil/mil Field Eval - https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/trijicon-tenmile-3-18x44mm-ffp-mil-mil-field-eval.252003/​

I've known about the Tenmile for a while now, but because the model describes the length of the scope (it's about 10 miles long ) it has not appealed to me, the weight is right but the length is way off.

 

[Secant]

I've written and deleted a couple novels here, haha. I'm continuing to search for MY perfect crossover. The short version is, out of the scopes I've owned/used, I want:

Tangent Theta 3-15x50 Marksmen with better reticle options and 10 mil/rev turrets. The simplest answer is to just offer more reticle choices, and I could keep dealing with the 6 mil/rev turrets.

OR

Zero Compromise 4-20x50 NLE, 10 mil/rev turrets, with a slightly modified reticle, and drop 8 oz. My hope is that similar to how Tangent has their Marksman series that is about 1/2 pound lighter than their Professional series, ZCO can make a "Hunter" series that is 1/2 pound lighter as well.


Based on my experience with the 6-24 AMG, I'd be interested in a Gen 2 AMG (3-12, 4-16, etc). I think Nightforce would benefit from a Gen 2 4-16x42 ATACR: get rid of the rotating ocular, increase quality of controls, glass, and have a tighter QC in terms of mechanical operations. A Kahles 3.5-18 DLR could be interesting, but they would need to drop some weight, and either drop their price or increase overall performance (which is based on my experience with the 5-25 version) to be a contender for me. I liked the 3.6-18 Mark 5 that I had, but after having TT & ZCO, I don't have a lot of interest in them anymore, and there are more items I would like to tweak than keep. I have similar thoughts regarding a newer Gen Bushnell Elite or SWFA. Burris should bring back the Gen 2 Mil-Dot in their 3.3-18 XTR3, and that would be a better contender as a mid-tier crossover scope (leaning more towards hunting with that reticle).

Lots of current scopes are useable, but just pecking at the edge optimum.

 

[Nevada Desert Rat]

All are poor choices. For hunting I want a low power scope no more than 2 power prefer 1 power. I want to get on target very quickly. As for ELR My most powerful scope is a 6.5x20 Leupold. The highest power I have every used it on was 16 power. Most the time I am on 10-14 power. The scope on my ELR pistol is a 2x7. I have no problems seeing my 12x18 inch target at 2200yds or the misses. I shoot peep sights on a 1903 Springfield so far out to 1 mile with my 12X18 inch targets. My longest standing offhand shot on my full size silhouette plate is 1 mile using my 300bo AR with a 1X4 on it. Never a need for high power magnification.
I have no clue why people have the need for those expensive high power scopes. My leupold if I put it on 20 power at 1 mile the targets are seriously dancing around because of mirage. It is totally useless at 1 mile on 20. Yes at 300 yards on 20 power I can see when a fly lands on my target. But I can stand there with my 22 Henry and beat on that target all day with open sights.
My 300bo AR I put the 1x4 on it for the reasons you mentioned. It is great on yots I put it on 1 power than as the yots are running me over I can easily get on them. And when I want to shoot it long range or ELR I just put it on 4.
My everyday Hiking 223 AR I do have a 2x8 on it. And it went through the hell of being broken and crawling on the ground with me. It is a cheap BSA scope with tactical turrets. After I got better and totaly dissembled it and cleaned it. The point of impact only shifted 1 inch at 100yds. I dialed in the 1000yd adj on the turret and started ringing steel.. That power range may be a better choice for some.
I have seen plenty of people with scopes as powerful as 40 and then they never shoot any farther than a few hundred yards.
One last thing the higher the power the more it magnifys how much the target is dancing and that screws with you head. The lower the power the less the target is dancing the more calm you become.
Anyway that's my 2 cents.
NDR

 

[Glassaholic]

I've written and deleted a couple novels here, haha. I'm continuing to search for MY perfect crossover. The short version is, out of the scopes I've owned/used, I want:

Tangent Theta 3-15x50 Marksmen with better reticle options and 10 mil/rev turrets. The simplest answer is to just offer more reticle choices, and I could keep dealing with the 6 mil/rev turrets.

I am mostly in agreement with your thoughts here Secant. I agree, the TT315M is the best lightweight scope in this class, I would like to see them use a 6x erector in a 30mm tube with the 10 mil turrets, that would be money (and would cost a lot of money )

OR

Zero Compromise 4-20x50 NLE, 10 mil/rev turrets, with a slightly modified reticle, and drop 8 oz. My hope is that similar to how Tangent has their Marksman series that is about 1/2 pound lighter than their Professional series, ZCO can make a "Hunter" series that is 1/2 pound lighter as well.

I am not convinced that ZCO ever plans to use anything other than their 36mm tubes, the European 1.7-12x50 showed that (doesn't make sense to use 36mm in a MPVO where weight is a critical factor), but I agree, I'd love to see a "hunter" series using 30mm tubes from them, time will tell.

Based on my experience with the 6-24 AMG, I'd be interested in a Gen 2 AMG (3-12, 4-16, etc).

My greatest hope for a crossover that meets all this criteria is from the Vortex AMG group, I know they are working on something, I just do not know what and as far as I know nobody else does either; Vortex does really good at not allowing information to sneak out onto the market until about a month before release (and then certain people seem to be willing to risk their NDA on spilling the beans - Impact 4000 thread as an example). I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Razor Gen2 3-18x50 was a flop (sales wise) and I think Vortex knows the reason is due to the weight, with the 4.5-27x56 being a dedicated competition scope, nobody really cared that it weighed 3 pounds when they were putting in on a 20 pound rifle, but the 3-18 needs to be light for use with gas guns and crossover/hunting. So it's quite possible we could still see a Razor Gen3 3-18x50 at some point that has a big weight reduction vs. their previous version.

I think Nightforce would benefit from a Gen 2 4-16x42 ATACR: get rid of the rotating ocular, increase quality of controls, glass, and have a tighter QC in terms of mechanical operations.

Agreed, I had hoped the ATACR 4-20 would have addressed this but they went bigger and heavier, the opposite direction of where they needed to go. Sure would be nice if they offered a NX6 line with improved turrets.

A Kahles 3.5-18 DLR could be interesting, but they would need to drop some weight, and either drop their price or increase overall performance (which is based on my experience with the 5-25 version) to be a contender for me.

I've been asking for a K318i DLR ever since the K5125 DLR was announced, why they've ignored a wide angle upgrade to the K318i is baffling. That being said, I do not see any weight reduction with DLR so this scope would still tip the scales over 30 oz

I liked the 3.6-18 Mark 5 that I had, but after having TT & ZCO, I don't have a lot of interest in them anymore, and there are more items I would like to tweak than keep.

Yep, there's a lot to like about the Mark5 3.6-18 but there's also a lot to #(*&$%$^!@ about Let's blend the old Mark 6 with the new Mark5 HD and create a new Mark6 HD line with improved glass, 34mm tube, usable reticles and illumination included. But let's be realistic, this is Leupold, that is not going to happen, even if they do come out with a new line they are going to "leupolded" it somehow.

I have similar thoughts regarding a newer Gen Bushnell Elite or SWFA. Burris should bring back the Gen 2 Mil-Dot in their 3.3-18 XTR3, and that would be a better contender as a mid-tier crossover scope (leaning more towards hunting with that reticle).

Lots of current scopes are useable, but just pecking at the edge optimum.

^^^ Yep. Another interesting player is Primary Arms, they have the potential and seem to punch above their class, they just need to get the reticles right. They seem to be too reliant on their ACSS reticle designer and don't quite understand MPVO and Crossover reticles yet, but I have high hopes they will.

 

[Glassaholic]

Okay, I've put together my spreadsheet, this is what I've come up with so far, let me know what I am missing, but keep in mind it has to meet the following criteria:

• FFP Hash Reticle
• 4.5x or less at bottom magnification
• 15x or more at top magnification
• Weigh 30 ounces or less (preferably under 28oz)
• Length less than 14 inches (preferably under 13.5")
• Not manufactured in China (if you need to ask you haven't been paying attention)

I have ordered these by bottom magnification at far left and increasing up to 4.5x on far right

 

[koshkin]

It sounds like you should just shell out the money for Tangent TT315 Hunter and live happily ever after.

 

[koshkin]

If you do not like the price of the Tangent, get this Tract for under $1k: https://tractoptics.com/riflescopes...ffp-illuminated-mrad-mrad-hunting-rifle-scope

That is also a perfect fit to your requriements.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

I have written about crossover scopes extensively over the last few years and spent a ton of time trying to persuade manufacturers to address this category. I was sufficiently annoying that a my Vortex contact called me up a while back and said something along the lines of "here is your f-ing scope and stop harassing me". That's how I got the HD-LHT 4.5-22x50 a year before it was announced.

This is the category of a riflescope I really like and, given a choice, use most of the time. I have always seen all of them and quite a few more that are not in your table. They come and go. Some stay. Which ones are staying here permanently?

Tangent Theta TT315M 3-15x50
Vortex Razor HD-LHT 4.5-22x50
Tract Toric 2.5-15x44

Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 has not been here very long, so we'll see. I like the configuration and it is going onto a pronghorn hunt with me shortly, so we'll see how it does. It might be staying too.

Burris XTR3i 3.3-18x50 is here as well and I like it. It might stay as well, but we'll see.

ILya