Re: Who can ask for papers?
the LE guys like SirMechanic were professional and answered the question in a complete manner, go to the first page.
It was only when idiots thought they knew better and that it was their right to not show the paperwork did things get ugly. Not understanding the overlapping State law that required you show the paperwork, instead people without a clue started chiming in how the BATF says they dont' have to show anyone but an ATF Agent the paperwork to prove anything --- Clearly proven wrong from the first page.
This was the 3rd Response and from LE, doesnt' get any more respectful.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.
But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.
I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items.
Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!
Weld up parts kits or hacksaw off your gun barrel like a moron... you deserve what you get. And that does not include my sympathy or understanding. Ownership of cool C3/DD items is not hard or expensive. Correctly-filled-out paperwork almost guarantees approval. The $200 fee is a pittance compared to the price of C3 items these days.
Do the paperwork... get approved. Enjoy the best toys and welcome to the club.
Just my $0.02.
Cheers,
Sirhr
</div></div>
When others challenge this he continued to show respect, with details,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861
That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork. And our local BATF agents, who I know on a first-name basis, are 20 minutes away if a subject refuses to show paperwork. No harrassment suit. No wrongful detainment. Cut and dried. I don't even have to do much paperwork, because BATF has no sense of humor that they are aware of. And they'll happily take the whole case off my hands and federal court is no fun! Other states have different flavors of this... but 'online forum lawschool advice' aside, local LE have no jurisdictional issues when it comes to asking for Class 3, DD, Form 1, etc. firearms paperwork.
What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.
Windermike... your parts kit on Form 1, as long as it complies with BATF regs, glad you have it. Enjoy it. Do I want to take it? Nope. Not if it's legal! Would I ask for your papers and be justified in asking? You bet. And after verifying that it's legal... I'd probably admire your build quality and compliment an interesting gun and we'd have a great time on the range talking C3 and FA and DD. That's what fellow-enthusiasts do.
If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.
That said... We're On The Same Damn Side!!!!
Folks... those in LE who know the Class 3/DD/SBR/Form 1 rules inside out and who respect, enjoy and participate in that community are not your enemies!
In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Finally, we are committed to defend you to the hilt when antis think that machine guns/silencers/short barrels, etc. are for "criminals and crazies." And those antis usually far outnumber us supporters!
So when we go out of our way to keep the legal owners happy and safe... and go to the trouble to know our jobs and the details of the law well enough to keep the illegal builders/buyers/traders from ruining the fun for all of us... one would think that would be considered laudable. It should not become a reason to accuse us of all being a bunch of jack-booted thugs trying to confiscate firearms.
Looking for nothing more here than keeping a great aspect of the firearms hobby (and one that I love) within the bounds of the law, so Class 3/DD/SBR/etc. stays fun and legal and does not ultimately get banned for all of us.
Hostile attitudes towards your Allies... that doesn't do any of us any good!
Cheers,
Sirhr</div></div>
Clearly the Forum Attorneys came out and started pushing back... hence your 7 pages of back and forth.
Dont' tell me you're just defending your buddies from the big bad Police, bad advice which would land you in trouble was the issue, not their response to hostile posters without a clue.
The bottom line, this was started because someone felt inconvenienced and was wondering why they have to pay and be put out... Again, back to my 80 year old law comment and all of the sudden it is a major issue. Be glad it never rose with inflation, $200 can easily be $2000, or $10,000 to possess one.
So DrRansom where did this all start with the LE members of this forum or with a few hard ass uneducated folks trying to act the part. Clearly the law has been demonstrated that LE has the ability to ask to see your paperwork to establish the legality of the device under Stage law. End of story.
</div></div>Why isn't it reasonable to assume that the silencer is legal? Unless it is home made it would be almost impossible to get illegally, where as a car can easily be bought without a valid drivers license.
