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Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Alaska
Sec. 11.61.200. Misconduct involving weapons in the third degree.
(a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the third degree if the person
(3) manufactures, possesses, transports, sells, or transfers a prohibited weapon;
(c) It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under (a)(3) of this section that the manufacture, possession, transportation, sale, or transfer of the prohibited weapon was in accordance with registration under 26 U.S.C. 5801-5872 (National Firearms Act).
(e) The provisions of (a)(3) and (11) of this section do not apply to a peace officer acting within the scope and authority of the officer's employment.
(h) As used in this section,
(1) "prohibited weapon" means any
(B) device designed, made, or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm;
(C) firearm that is capable of shooting more than one shot automatically, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger; or
(D) rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches, shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or firearm made from a rifle or shotgun which, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches;
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

Man, I would NEVER mess with you! Are you like that one guy on TV that walks tall and carries a big stick? </div></div>

No. I'm the guy you look for behind the shower curtain when you get home from the movies after finger banging your girlfriend and your mommy and daddy arn't home. </div></div>

OH! I would have never guessed. How did you know I live with my parents still? Are you really in the shower right now? Do you get internet angry all the time? You better calm down before you have to twist someone up. Seriously internet is not worth losing for freedom for. I guess you can twist people up in prison.....is that a sexual move in prison? Gonna have to wiki that.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

What state is next? Alphabetical or someone name one. I can look them all up.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state is next? Alphabetical or someone name one. I can look them all up.</div></div>

See what the deal is with NC...

While I fully intend to comply with ANY inquiry, it'd be nice to have a legal perspective on who I have to show.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

Man, I would NEVER mess with you! Are you like that one guy on TV that walks tall and carries a big stick? </div></div>

No. I'm the guy you look for behind the shower curtain when you get home from the movies after finger banging your girlfriend and your mommy and daddy arn't home. </div></div>

OH! I would have never guessed. How did you know I live with my parents still? Are you really in the shower right now? Do you get internet angry all the time? You better calm down before you have to twist someone up. Seriously internet is not worth losing for freedom for. I guess you can twist people up in prison.....is that a sexual move in prison? Gonna have to wiki that. </div></div>

No one is mad, no one is angry. If you are angry about what is wrote on a forum you have issues and your wife is lonely.

This is not a positive contribution to SH. I only have 41 posts and I would like to some day sell some of my shit on here. Good night Mr. Tactical Sasquatch.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Wow! More than a few pages have gone by since I left this discussion...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, I'll say it again... if some civilians are "exempt" from the law that makes it illegal to possess NFA items, then how does an LEO have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to think a civilian's mere possession is NOT exempt?

if some, are exempt, then a reasonable person would think that anyone who is openly shooting a NFA item at a range is doing so legally</div></div>You are confusing probable cause with benefit of the doubt. The first is a legal standard; second assures that you have a pleasant remainder of the day.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">show me a state statute that says a person has to carry and or present their NFA forms... or a case where someone was successfully prosecuted for not having the forms for a legally registered item... until then, I have the right to remain silent and be free from unreasonable search or seizure </div></div>Nobody in this Thread ever said that you had to produce your Form 4 to an officer under penalty of law for not doing so. Your 5th Amendment right to remain silent does not apply because you are not being compelled to talk and you are not in a judicial proceeding. Your 4th Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and siezure isn't implicated because it's not a search and it's not a siezure.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... for HIS state... but unless any other states have something similar, the burden is still on the state, not the defendant... by default </div></div>You are making this up as you go along, aren't you?

I thought you said that you used to be an LEO?! This is all basic criminal procedure.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

way past any of that Graham... and YES... people did say that people had to show paperwork to local LE under penalty of law...

and we all found several states where that is at least partially true...some don't mention suppressors/silencers/mufflers as being illegal under state law...

and I'm retired.. been off the streets a LONG time.. I don't have to remember.. or even care about criminal procedure... that's what I have an attorney for...
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I had my form 4 blown up and applied as a full size decal on my truck, will that get me a twisted wrist secret shower reach around?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state is next? Alphabetical or someone name one. I can look them all up.</div></div>
How about Missouri? I think they are prohibited unless you comply with NFA regs. So I guess the law would be similar to tx. I own cans and sbrs but I have asked more about how to get one and "can I shoot it?". I have never be questioned by LE about my class 3 items.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">way past any of that Graham... and YES... people did say that people had to show paperwork to local LE under penalty of law...</div></div>Where? Perhaps I missed it. I could very well have.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.

But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.

I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.

You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.

Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items.

Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!

Weld up parts kits or hacksaw off your gun barrel like a moron... you deserve what you get. And that does not include my sympathy or understanding. Ownership of cool C3/DD items is not hard or expensive. Correctly-filled-out paperwork almost guarantees approval. The $200 fee is a pittance compared to the price of C3 items these days.

Do the paperwork... get approved. Enjoy the best toys and welcome to the club.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,

Sirhr





</div></div>
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had my form 4 blown up and applied as a full size decal on my truck, will that get me a twisted wrist secret shower reach around? </div></div>For some reason I no longer miss Boltripper.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.

But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.

I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.

You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.

Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items....</div></div> </div></div>I don't see anything in his post that says people must show paperwork to local LE under penalty of law.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt.Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state is next? Alphabetical or someone name one. I can look them all up.</div></div>

See what the deal is with NC...

While I fully intend to comply with ANY inquiry, it'd be nice to have a legal perspective on who I have to show.</div></div>
North Carolina is kinda funny so you get the majority of it rather than cut out portions.

§ 14&#8209;409. Machine guns and other like weapons.
(a)As used in this section, "machine gun" or "submachine gun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

(b)It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to manufacture, sell, give away, dispose of, use or possess machine guns, submachine guns, or other like weapons as defined by subsection (a) of this section: Provided, however, that this subsection shall not apply to the following:
Banks, merchants, and recognized business establishments for use in their respective places of business, who shall first apply to and receive from the sheriff of the county in which said business is located, a permit to possess the said weapons for the purpose of defending the said business; officers and soldiers of the United States Army, when in discharge of their official duties, officers and soldiers of the militia when called into actual service, officers of the State, or of any county, city or town, charged with the execution of the laws of the State, when acting in the discharge of their official duties; the manufacture, use or possession of such weapons for scientific or experimental purposes when such manufacture, use or possession is lawful under federal laws and the weapon is registered with a federal agency, and when a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located; a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by Subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801&#8209;5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon. Provided, further, that any bona fide resident of this State who now owns a machine gun used in former wars, as a relic or souvenir, may retain and keep same as his or her property without violating the provisions of this section upon his reporting said ownership to the sheriff of the county in which said person lives.

(c)Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class I felony.

§ 14&#8209;288.8. MANUFACTURE, ASSEMBLY, POSSESSION,STORAGE, TRANSPORTATION, SALE, PURCHASE, DELIVERY, OR ACQUISITION OF WEAPON OF MASS DEATH AND DESTRUCTION; exceptions.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.

(b) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(1) Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14&#8209;269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.
(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.
(3) Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.
(4) Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.
(5) Persons who lawfully possess or own a weapon as defined in subsection (c) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801&#8209;5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon.

(c) The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:
(2) Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one&#8209;half inch in diameter; or
(3) Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or
(4) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.
The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" does not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line&#8209;throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes, in accordance with Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(d) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a Class F felony.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

in fact.. I'm pretty much bored w/ this now.... people posted full statues for some states.. and I called my attorney and asked what specific Oklahoma statute to look at, did and provided the #...

basically we settled the original question as it was worded, and as it was intended w/o you and now you want to pop back in and catch up...

well....read away
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Matt, It's in your in box.</div></div>

Well now I just feel violated.. LOL

Thanks Graham, much appreciated.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">then start at post #1 and start reading... it was said several times, that if you refuse to show NFA forms you'll be arrested...</div></div>That's not the same thing as what you claimed. Don't play fast and loose with the facts.

FM, you said:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... people did say that people had to show paperwork to local LE under penalty of law...</div></div>'Under penalty of law' is a term of art. It doesn't mean what you choose it to mean. That's not the same thing as an officer posting that he would arrest you for violation of a State suppressor statute.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7.62DAV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state is next? Alphabetical or someone name one. I can look them all up.</div></div>
How about Missouri? I think they are prohibited unless you comply with NFA regs. So I guess the law would be similar to tx. I own cans and sbrs but I have asked more about how to get one and "can I shoot it?". I have never be questioned by LE about my class 3 items. </div></div>
571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:

(7) Any of the following in violation of federal law:

(a) A machine gun;

(b) A short-barreled rifle or shotgun; or

(c) A firearm silencer.

Basically if you are in violation of federal law, you are in violation of state law. If you are not in violation of federal law you are good.

My disclaimer to all of this is: These are the laws that I found, I ATTEMPT to get them all but I may not. YOU are ultimately responsible for knowing the laws where ever you are.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

so in Texas, I am still committing a class 3 felony by owning a supressor? and the defense to prosecution does not make ownership legal, it just keeps me from being convicted of the crime?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Since this thread is now going somewhere, can someone please find Maine law? It would be good to know where I stand.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

I find it ironic to say the least that you post this and then in your signiture line you quote Zac as saying "Because America is awesome."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had my form 4 blown up and applied as a full size decal on my truck, will that get me a twisted wrist secret shower reach around? </div></div>

Thanks for lightening things up a bit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stag15m4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a cop and have been so for a while now...

I have 2 Form 1 suppressors on a trust and both have a fancy $200 stamp on the top of the paper. My Form 1s are almost a right of passage and I am rather proud of them.

My job as a cop is to find the bad guys. The ones who want to prey on the good guys. The only way to do that is by talking to everyone I encounter to determine if they are good people doing something stupid or if they are bad people pretending to be good people. I do not get my rocks off asking people for their Forms 1 or 4. Or even better, asking for their SOT status to determine if their MG is REALLY a dealer sample or not. The fact of the matter is if they are at a GUN RANGE, they are not out robbing jewelry stores or 7/11 stores with their $16,000 M-16. If they have a nicely built suppressor with serial numbers and model numbers and they are not exhibiting any SIGNS OF DECEIT, than they are more than likely G2G. The bad guys generally don't go to the range! They hide their cache until it's time to use it.

Cops who go to the range presumably while off duty and question people about their tax status is a ridiculous thought. Go sit on the highway and learn to be a cop... Interdict illegal weapons being smuggled... Interdict kilos of cocaine... Interdict large amounts of cash moving from drug buyer to drug dealer. More importantly, learn that anybody can manufacture a document, especially when it is readily available ON THE INTERNET. Read the person, not the tax stamp.

BatchelorJack...

"Cops are the best liars out there."

That is the most short-sighted anti-cop liberal BS talk I've heard in a while. There are a number of overzealous rookies out stretching their wings. There are also a larger number of seasoned officers who are not out screwing with people just because "they can."

Just as with anything, those people make names for themselves and it usually burns them in the not-so-long run.

Your absurd blanket statement is not only incorrect, but extremely offensive. Forum-Jockeys are the best liars out there, ask Brad Paisley.

Long story short... If you are not doing something stupid and some rookie asks you for a Form 1 or 4 while you're at the range, save yourself some time and hassle by showing it to him. First, school his ass, then call and tell his supervisor what his off-duty activities for the day consisted of.

If you are traveling from point A to point B and commit a traffic violation and the investigating officer asks you if you have documentation for your NFA item, show him! Most states fall back on the Federal NFA laws to determine legality of the weapon. If you can show that you are in compliance than what sense does it make not to???

It will save a lot of time and money and stupid, useless court time.

...My .35 Cents. </div></div>

While pointing out the posts that pissed folks off, it's more important to point out the posts that were more down to earth. Thanks Stag15M4.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so in Texas, I am still committing a class 3 felony by owning a supressor? and the defense to prosecution does not make ownership legal, it just keeps me from being convicted of the crime? </div></div>

The way the Prohibited Weapons statute is currently written, that is correct.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Thanks SniperCJ. Was afraid thats what it was saying. Seems that we should be working on changing the verbage in the statute to make them legal. Not just you can get away with it w/ a stamp. Seems this would be a high priority on the PD's list as they would not want to have their officers knowingly and willingly committing felonys (that they cant be prosecuted for) while performing their duties...ie SWAT and such.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so in Texas, I am still committing a class 3 felony by owning a supressor? and the defense to prosecution does not make ownership legal, it just keeps me from being convicted of the crime? </div></div>The way the Prohibited Weapons statute is currently written, that is correct. </div></div>Not exactly. Let's think about this for a minute: Is the state that leads the nation in suppressor sales creating a new felony each time a 'legal' silencer changes hands? No.

From the statute:

"(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor’s conduct was Incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility. (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor’s possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended."

So, possession under NFA rules is not simply an affirmative defense, it's a complete defense, meaning that you are not committing a felony because you have a complete defense to having committed the crime - you have <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> committed the felony.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?


Graham, I like your answer better than CJ's but it leaves more questions...If the "average" LEO stops me and uses CJ's definition, I'm committing a felony and subject to arrest. Then i'm released because I have stamp. With your definition of complete defense, I have committed no crime and not subject to arrest. I would think this is how the writers of the statute would want is interpereted to bypass military, gov agencies and the like but if our "hide member" leo's disagree on the verbage it needs to be changed. I'm obvously not a law professor, but it would be interesting to see how they would interperate it.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

It might be a good idea to check hunting laws as well. In Tennessee, someone hunting with a suppressor is required to carry paperwork. It might be different in some states than when not hunting.

The use of suppressors/silencers is legal for persons possessing the required federal license from the United States Department of Treasury. Hunters using these devices must have proof of such license on their person.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Swil, good call. And a good question. I'm not sure that I know the answer because I don't practice law in Texas and I'm not giving legal advice on this Thread.

It comes down to the difference between the standard for probable cause to arrest, which must be met by the cop; and the standard for prosecution, which is whether or not you have a complete defense to the crime. The two are different animals entirely.

As a Texas cop, if I see a suppressor I have reasonable suspicion that possession is illegal. So I can make inquiries short of an arrest, like detain the guy. Then I can ask him to produce a Form 4 or other evidence that he is not committing a felony. Now, if he produces a tax stamp, I know he has a complete defense to felony possession so unless I have other information that he is committing the same felony (or other evidence of another crime) maybe my probable cause goes away... or maybe it doesn't.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Its not 'my' definition, its the State of Texas's definition.

I dont like the way it is written either and I'm merely saying that 'technically' you could still be arrested for a felony, and it would shake out in court.

In real world practice, once you produce the Form 4, youre 'legal' in LEO's eyes.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

OK all you rabid civil libertarians, second amendment fundamentalists, and lovers of 'What if', SHTF, and 'Bug-out to the local DNR range' scenarios: Out of the basement and into the streets for a few of the hypotheticals that have taken-up so much time on this Thread: What have we learned?

1) In Texas, if CJ pulls me over and sees (or knows that I have with me) a suppressor, he can detain me further and ask for proof that I am not committing a felony. Can I tell him to just stroke me the biscuit and be on his way? Sure. But it ain't gonna happen that way. Do I have to show him my Form 4? Nope: No law says you get charged with failing to produce a Form 4. But then in all likelihood he's got probable cause to arrest me for a class 3 felony, sieze my can, impound my vehicle, book me into the jail and we figure it all out later between the prosecutor and the judge.

Or maybe I show CJ my tax stamp, thank him for his service, and his probable cause to arrest me goes away. Let's see... Which path would I rather take?

2) Also in Texas, CJ is dispatched to the shooting range for a 'man with a silencer' call (a class 3 felony). He sees my suppressor. He now has reason to believe that a felony is in progress. That's not a good time for me to lecture CJ about my constititional second amendment right to own a suppressor - a right that doesn't exist - or about his abuse of the 4th Amendment, an amendment that won't apply until I am either arrested and/or he siezes my suppressor. Is there a law that says I have to show him a Form 4? Nope. So I insist on invoking my 5th Amendment privilege - a right that doesn't even exist in that situation yet. I am then arrested, at which point CJ will tell me all about my right to remain silent being triggered, plus the other rights in the Miranda warning.

Or maybe I show CJ my tax stamp, thank him for his service, and his probable cause to arrest me goes away. Let's see... Which path would I rather take?

C'mon people, get a clue. Or not: It's your life, your freedoms, and your stuff.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so in Texas, I am still committing a class 3 felony by owning a supressor? and the defense to prosecution does not make ownership legal, it just keeps me from being convicted of the crime? </div></div>The way the Prohibited Weapons statute is currently written, that is correct. </div></div>Not exactly. Let's think about this for a minute: Is the state that leads the nation in suppressor sales creating a new felony each time a 'legal' silencer changes hands? No.

From the statute:

"(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor’s conduct was Incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility. (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor’s possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended."

So, possession under NFA rules is not simply an affirmative defense, it's a complete defense, meaning that you are not committing a felony because you have a complete defense to having committed the crime - you have <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> committed the felony.</div></div>

Kind of...The way I read it and understand it is that you can still be arrested for a felony. However according to the definition of defense you will be acquitted when you show your defense to the jury/prosecuting attorney.

Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."
(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

Again strictly semantics/technicalities you could still be arrested. HOWEVER it would be INCREDIBLY stupid and probably result in disciplinary actions on the officer if he/she did arrest when shown paperwork or believes the paperwork exists. Something you will learn very fast when you start reading laws is that a lot of them are written poorly and with bad language. I think this is partially because some of them are written a piece at a time and added on to over the years. Many many times the language that they use when amending laws creates unintended issues in understanding/enforcing it.

If someone interprets this differently let me know. I've learned a lot from this thread already.

Now back to looking up the other states' laws (FYI I'm just googling "_______ state statutes" or "_______ state weapons statutes" and then going to that state's official website)
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, I should get an honorary law degree, cause I said all that 2 pages ago.
smile.gif


</div></div>

Print it out and write your name in Crayon anywhere you choose.

Law-School-Diploma.jpg
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you are looking, what about LA?</div></div>

Wow LA law is a PITA to look up. Here is what I found, there is more to it but you may have to call someone in LA to find it.

§1752 Handling of machine guns unlawful; exceptions

No person shall sell, keep or offer for sale, loan or give away, purchase, possess, carry, or transport any machine gun within this state, except that:

(1) All duly appointed peace officers may purchase, possess, carry, and transport machine guns.

(2) This Part does not apply to the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps of the United States, the National Guard, and organizations authorized by law to purchase etc.

(3) Persons possessing war relics may purchase and possess machine guns which are relics of any war in which the United States was involved, may exhibit and carry the machine guns in the parades of any military organization, etc

(4) Guards or messengers employed by common carriers, banks, and trust companies, and pay-roll guards or messengers may possess and carry machine guns while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery, etc

(5) Manufacturers and merchants may sell, keep or offer for sale, loan or give away, purchase, possess,etc.

Here is a clip from the LA State Police website that leads me to believe there is more on the subject but I was unable to find it http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html

Louisiana law does not require the registration of handguns. However, the law requires the registration and transfer of a firearm. The following is the legal definition of firearm;

"Firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length; a rifle having a barrel of less than sixteen inches in length; any weapon made from either a rifle or a shotgun if said weapon has been modified to have an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; any other firearm, pistol, revolver, or shotgun from which the serial number or mark of identification has been obliterated, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive, if that weapon is capable of being concealed on the person; or a machine gun, grenade launcher, flame thrower, bazooka, rocket launcher, excluding black powder weapons, or gas grenade; and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not the firearm is included within this definition. Pistols and revolvers and those rifles and shotguns which have not previously been defined in this Paragraph as firearms from which serial numbers or marks of identification have not been obliterated are specifically exempt from this definition.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since this thread is now going somewhere, can someone please find Maine law? It would be good to know where I stand.</div></div>

§1051. Possession of machine gun

1. A person is guilty of possession of a machine gun if, without authority to do so, he knowingly possesses a machine gun.

§1052. Right to possess, carry or transport machine gun

Machine guns manufactured, acquired, transferred or possessed in accordance with the National Firearms Act, as amended, shall be exempt from this chapter.

I did not find anything pertaining to suppressors (again doesn't mean it's not there just that I didn't find it)

Another disclaimer: I am not looking up hunting laws so if you are hunting in these states either look them up or call ahead.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

As someone in the process of getting my tax stamp, I have a question that was sort of touched on here.

What is the penalty for possessing a non tax stamped item that is NFA controlled? Ie, a suppressor. Someone pointed out that it would be Tax evasion - ie, since you have refused to pay the tax on the item. It would follow that ownership of an NFA item is not in and of itself illegal - the illegal part is owning an item produced after the date of the NFA act which has not been transferred via the process of obtaining a Tax stamp.

Every time I head about this by the way, I am reminded of the stamps the British colonials were forced to pay and the result of that attempt by the British government.

I haven't actually researched the law, so am asking for opinions of folks who have read the law and reviewed the cases that have been in court and what the results were.

It seems unreasonable that not obtaining a $200 tax stamp could result in years in jail along with huge fines. I would suggest that if this is the case, it would seem to be in conflict with the 8th amendment in regards to cruel and unusual punishment.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, I should get an honorary law degree, cause I said all that 2 pages ago.
smile.gif
</div></div> Print it out and write your name in Crayon anywhere you choose.</div></div>LOL! The exam I took didn't have any coloring, although it had boxes within which I had to stay in order to think.

Being a radical isn’t about waving your arms, stamping your feet, and bitching about the police. Being a true radical requires that you think about old ideas in new ways. Not everyone can do that, which is why second rate faux-radicals have so many third-rate followers.

That kind of run-of-the-mill radical might advocate a God-given ownership right for suppressors regardless of whether or not his government permitted it. I have met people who believe that. They were carrying concealed weapons. I saw them go to jail. Like the cute kid says in those old Hamburger Helper commercials: ‘And I helped’.
All to say that facts don’t carry an argument, point of view does. For the self-styled ‘radicals’ here who think that they have a God-given right to own a suppressor and to tell the cops to go to hell while doing it, I ask you: Would you be willing fo fill-out a form and pay $200 for a document that makes probable cause for a third-degree possession felony vanish? Because, if I were in your shoes, I sure as hell would.

Perhaps we should open The Sniper's Hide School of Applied Common Sense.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone in the process of getting my tax stamp, I have a question that was sort of touched on here.

What is the penalty for possessing a non tax stamped item that is NFA controlled? Ie, a suppressor. Someone pointed out that it would be Tax evasion - ie, since you have refused to pay the tax on the item. It would follow that ownership of an NFA item is not in and of itself illegal - the illegal part is owning an item produced after the date of the NFA act which has not been transferred via the process of obtaining a Tax stamp.

Every time I head about this by the way, I am reminded of the stamps the British colonials were forced to pay and the result of that attempt by the British government.

I haven't actually researched the law, so am asking for opinions of folks who have read the law and reviewed the cases that have been in court and what the results were.

It seems unreasonable that not obtaining a $200 tax stamp could result in years in jail along with huge fines. I would suggest that if this is the case, it would seem to be in conflict with the 8th amendment in regards to cruel and unusual punishment.</div></div>

That's a good question, here is my thoughts on it. It could be in fact a violation of several different laws. For example may be tax evasion, a violation of state law, possession of an unregistered firearm required to be registered...and so on. I'm unfamiliar with the process of registration/tax stamp paying.

Someone else may prove me wrong on this but just my thoughts on it.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you are looking, what about LA?</div></div>

Wow LA law is a PITA to look up. Here is what I found, there is more to it but you may have to call someone in LA to find it.

§1752 Handling of machine guns unlawful; exceptions

No person shall sell, keep or offer for sale, loan or give away, purchase, possess, carry, or transport any machine gun within this state, except that:

(1) All duly appointed peace officers may purchase, possess, carry, and transport machine guns.

(2) This Part does not apply to the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps of the United States, the National Guard, and organizations authorized by law to purchase etc.

(3) Persons possessing war relics may purchase and possess machine guns which are relics of any war in which the United States was involved, may exhibit and carry the machine guns in the parades of any military organization, etc

(4) Guards or messengers employed by common carriers, banks, and trust companies, and pay-roll guards or messengers may possess and carry machine guns while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery, etc

(5) Manufacturers and merchants may sell, keep or offer for sale, loan or give away, purchase, possess,etc.

Here is a clip from the LA State Police website that leads me to believe there is more on the subject but I was unable to find it http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html

Louisiana law does not require the registration of handguns. However, the law requires the registration and transfer of a firearm. The following is the legal definition of firearm;

"Firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length; a rifle having a barrel of less than sixteen inches in length; any weapon made from either a rifle or a shotgun if said weapon has been modified to have an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; any other firearm, pistol, revolver, or shotgun from which the serial number or mark of identification has been obliterated, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive, if that weapon is capable of being concealed on the person; or a machine gun, grenade launcher, flame thrower, bazooka, rocket launcher, excluding black powder weapons, or gas grenade; and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not the firearm is included within this definition. Pistols and revolvers and those rifles and shotguns which have not previously been defined in this Paragraph as firearms from which serial numbers or marks of identification have not been obliterated are specifically exempt from this definition. </div></div>

Thank you.

It's about like most thinks in this state, clear as muddy water.
smile.gif


 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

This has been an interesting read to say the least. I will pose a thought for these posters. I would be happy to produce paperwork required or not to LEO if I could own a "can" in my state.

just food for thought

Rthur
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Rthur...

something people tend to forget...

just because someone asked "do I HAVE to show my paperwork to local LEO?"

that doesn't mean that they're not happy to show it... it may very well mean they just want to know if they HAVE to.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

It's one of those things where you don't HAVE to do anything you don't want to. You just may not like what happens if that's the decision you make. Same goes for many other situations.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok... clarification... CAN they refuse and not get arrested... legally
</div></div>Already answered multiple times here.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

for some states... yes it has...

what all you people seem to forget is that several of your opinions are wrong... much like several of mine have been proven wrong...

in the state of Oklahoma, I CAN tell a local LEO "suppressors aren't illegal under Oklahoma law", and refuse to show him anything.. and he has no statute to arrest me for... will I, probably not... but I like at least having that information..

not if I have a SBR or SBS and refuse to show him paperwork... he has a statute to arrest me for

people have listed other state laws.. some that show all NFA items, some that just show a few...

but Graham... then a guy comes and says "well, I don't understand WHy you'd want to refuse"

I answer w/ well, a person might not want to refuse, just might want to know...

then you pop up w/ ask and answered... it really hasn't been answered... no matter what you, any other LEO, or LL thinks... there are 50 states.. all w/ different laws.. not all very clear... so people obviously still don't know... so they ask

in some instances you damn sure don't HAVE to show (it is a good idea) but you guys all keep saying "show it and move along, or there might be consequences"

well, IF I refuse to show a form for a suppressor here in Oklahoma (again, not that I WOULD) the consequence is the LEO either walks away or I sue him