Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

DarinR

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Did they find the M70 had shortcomings or was it budget/availability based?

Just curious why it happened.

The more I learn about the M70, I more I like it.

Thanks,
Darin Reiss
 

bcw1284

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

action design changed in '64, the post-'64 are not considered as desireable as the pre-64. Not sure about the USMC decision, but do be aware of this if you are thinking of buying one.
 

DarinR

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Thanks bcw1284, I am looking at the Pre '64 style actions and not the later type. Specifically, I have been looking at the FN SPR actions. Very impressed with what I see so far for strength and still excellent accuracy potential even thought it probably harder to "true" due to the flat bottom receiver since it would take more time to center in a lathe for facing. I understand the FN SPR actions coming out are in good tolerance to begin with.

Thanks,
Darin
 

USSR

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

DarinR,

Remington actively persued the gov't contract; Winchester didn't. Had nothing to do with the post-64 thing at Winchester or the Remington being perceived as better.

Don
 

Emilio

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Its covered pretty well in The One Shot War.
 

DarinR

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Thanks Guys!

I believe I still have One Shot War on a bookshelf in the basement if I haven't lent it out and forgot it. I will catch up on my reading if I can find it tonight.

Thanks,
Darin
 

ArcticLight

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

It had everything to do with WInchester not giving a rats ass about doing a contract or getting back to the USMC - Remington stepped up to the plate and said "Lets do it" - The USMC actually contacted Winchester but they were not very responsive...

All about politics and military contracting...

FYI - the late model 70's had the same features as the PRe-64 - control round feeding, something about the extractor....WInchester finally listened to the customers then threw them under the bus...
 

DarinR

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Oops. My book is "The Complete Book of US Sniping" by Peter Senich. Is "The One Shot War" worth buying if you already have this book.

Thanks,
Darin
 

Lindy

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

The Model 70 is a good action. I have two Model 70 HBVs which I'll put up against any factory Remington 700 any day, and against a lot of custom 700s. They're solid 3/4-MOA guns right out of the box.
 

Queequeg

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Ed Kugler's book, Dead Center, mentions something about the change of rifles during one of his tours. Great book and funny comments. As I recall he was less than pleased with going from 30-06 to 7.62. Less effective range and he did not care for the 700 at first.

To be fair it's 10 years, or so, since I read it so my memory may fail me.
 

Queequeg

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Always bothered me that I never owned a model 70...

I saw something about the new ones coming out of the FN plant in South Carolina being very nicely made! Worth a look.
 

Aries64

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It had everything to do with WInchester not giving a rats ass about doing a contract or getting back to the USMC - Remington stepped up to the plate and said "Lets do it" - The USMC actually contacted Winchester but they were not very responsive...

All about politics and military contracting...

<span style="font-weight: bold">FYI - the late model 70's had the same features as the PRe-64 - control round feeding, something about the extractor</span>....WInchester finally listened to the customers then threw them under the bus... </div></div>
Actually, the Model 70s' produced in the late 70s', (really, Model 70s' produced between 1964 and 1993) were very different from the Pre-64 and "Classic" (introduced in 1994) Model 70s'. The Pre-64 action and the "Classic" feature a large, full length external claw extractor and a fixed blade-type ejector for positive feeding and ejection. The lip of the extractor snap-ups in front of the case head as the round is stripped from the magazine, capturing the case head between the extractor lip and the bolt face. The claw maintains "control" of the round from the time that it engages the case head to the time that the case is ejected. Hence the "CRF" (Controlled Round Feed) name. The external extractor is very strong and provides both control very positive extraction.

When properly fed, (rounds are inserted into the magazine and not just placed in front of the bolt) it is <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> hard to break the extractor on a CRF M70 (Pre-64 or Classic design). The rationale behind feeding from the magazine is so that the extractor lip "pops-up" to engage the case head, instead of the extractor lip being forced over the case head as the round is chambered. Some people say <span style="font-style: italic">"you don't have to do that - I just throw the round on top and close the bolt"</span>. Yeah, OK - whatever floats your boat. I'd venture to say that some people who do this are used to a Model 700 - others may be in a hurry, don't realize you could damage the extractor (pretty hard), or are just lazy. Because of this, many years ago Winchester started beveling the lip of the extractor to help the lip slip over the case head more easily. While this works, it is not the way the M70's CRF system was designed to operate. IMHO its' better to insert the round into the magazine on a CRF Model 70.

The Post-64 Model 70s' employ a clusterfuck called Controlled Round Push Feed (CRPF). On the CRPF bolt, a large extractor built into the bolthead guides the round as it is stripped from the magazine (much like the CRF on a Pre-64 or Classic action). The design seems to work, but the extractor isn't nearly as robust as that of a Pre-64 or Classic design. I also prefer the CRF's fixed blade-type ejector over the CRPF's button type.

Keith
 

9H_Cracka

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

Just because the "classic" M70 actions have a claw extractor does not mean that they are the same as the pre-64 M70 actions.

The pre-64s have a bunch of hand work done to make them. The Classics are spit out like the post-64 and M700 actions. Also the Classics have MIM trigger parts. The extractor is not the same steel, hence the reason Williams offers a replacement of better steel.

All that said, I agree with Lindy. The M70 is a very good action. They are stiffer than the M700 by a factor of almost 2, have a nice flat bedding surface to take torque, and a better safety system.

But, it's kinda like saying a MOPAR motor is better than a Chevy due to its connecting rod length and piston pin placement - the aftermarket revolves around the M700. About the only "improved" M70 action out there is the Montana and it is an absolute POS as far as execution goes.

When Remington launched the 721/722 actions that evolved into the 700s we know today, they didn't set out to make them BETTER than the pre-64 M70 - they set out to make them CHEAPER. The rest is marketing mystique, and as the original post illustrates, you'll never catch up with the lore of the pre-64 Model 70.
 

montyb

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

i feel the late M70 classics are better than the pre-64s were.
 

our gang

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Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

They were/are both fine rifles but if you get your mitts on the new Kimber tactical... well it's as close to a TRG as an average slob can afford. It shoots 1/4 MOA in 223, 1/2 MOA in 308 and the 300 winmag version should allow touching Achmed a bit farther. By the time you pay to build up a M70 or 700 to have all the features that come on the Kimber you'll spend as much but with a lot less resale value.

tactical-lpt.jpg

tactical-tactical.jpg

tactical-advancedtactical.jpg
 

GUNNER75

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    This may hurt, but what the heck. What exactly makes the M70 so much stronger than a 700?

    I will just say it. The square front end has more meat, I get that part, but from there back, I don't see it at all.

    The slot for the bolt release goes damn near through the action. I would think the action "out of stock" would tend to twist more than the 700. Just something I noticed. (not that this matters, just mentioning it).

    I love the incorperated recoil lug, but nothing more. Just my opinion.

    What gives on the Pre 64 being better than the Post? I would think machining specs, machines themselves, etc would have been better as the years progressed. Then again, What Winchester put out in the last 1yr of production didn't impress me much.

    Definitly interested in some good info on this subject.

    As for current actions, etc being built, they moved the bolt release pin back, creating all sorts of issues. I think there new trigger is good to go, but would have liked to seen them get rid of that bolt release set up.

    Definitly interested in some good info on this subject.
     

    1911.it

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    I have a pre-64 Win Model 70 in .270 Win. It's deadly on deer. Even though machining and tolerances are better today IMO a lot of skilled handiwork went into rifles of that era.
     

    our gang

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    The 700 is stronger and handles gas better, the 70 has controlled feed and a better extractor. I had to put a SAKO extractor in my 700 rebbled to 244 H&H to ensure extraction every time, that never would have happened had it been a 70. If you can get a 70 with the BOSS system, like my 270, they will shoot one hole out of the box groups with almost any ammo. That is not always true of 700s (see the recent story in Handloader on the most accurate 308 load where they had to discard a fancy 700 because of accuracy issues). You really can't go too far wrong with either although the Savage is usually more "out of the box" accurate and the Kimber is just a more modern design with no issues at all. I have all kinds of stuff from an 1807 British 61 cal Baker Flintlock military rifle (that killed a big 6x6 this year) to a 300 SAUM DPMS black rifle. They all work just fine. IMO if we all spent more time shooting and less obsessing about minute technological differences, we would all be more effective on paper, game or bad guys.
     

    MtGoat

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because the "classic" M70 actions have a claw extractor does not mean that they are the same as the pre-64 M70 actions.

    The pre-64s have a bunch of hand work done to make them. The Classics are spit out like the post-64 and M700 actions. Also the Classics have MIM trigger parts. The extractor is not the same steel, hence the reason Williams offers a replacement of better steel.

    All that said, I agree with Lindy. The M70 is a very good action. They are stiffer than the M700 by a factor of almost 2, have a nice flat bedding surface to take torque, and a better safety system.

    But, it's kinda like saying a MOPAR motor is better than a Chevy due to its connecting rod length and piston pin placement - the aftermarket revolves around the M700. About the only "improved" M70 action out there is the Montana and it is an absolute POS as far as execution goes.

    When Remington launched the 721/722 actions that evolved into the 700s we know today, they didn't set out to make them BETTER than the pre-64 M70 - they set out to make them CHEAPER. The rest is marketing mystique, and as the original post illustrates, you'll never catch up with the lore of the pre-64 Model 70. </div></div>

    The recoil lug stays with the action so when changing barrels on a pre-64 Model 70 you did not need to rebed the action unless changing barrel contour. A number of hi-power shooters preferred the Model 70 to the 700. The 700 ended up becoming the king due to Winchesters change in design and aftermarket parts being much more readily available for the 700 (or that was the story in the late 80's when I was competitively shooting).

    Pat
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Model 70 is a good action. I have two Model 70 HBVs which I'll put up against any factory Remington 700 any day, and against a lot of custom 700s. They're solid 3/4-MOA guns right out of the box.
    </div></div>

    As I understand it, you're a pretty good shot. I'd suspect you could get 3/4 minute out of an AK.
     

    Graham

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    Builds on Win 70 actions dominated the DCRA long range matches for years.
     

    BasraBoy

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    Not sure there is a simple answer here.

    Try to get a copy of "The One Round War, USMC Snipers in Vietnam" by Peter R Senich (published by Paladin Press)

    It covers this plus the evolution of the M40 into the M40A1 in detail (350 pages)
     

    Lindy

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I understand it, you're a pretty good shot. I'd suspect you could get 3/4 minute out of an AK.</div></div>

    Thanks, Charles - I wish that were true. It'd save me a lot of money.
    laugh.gif


    OTOH, with an AI and two good Winchester .308s, I'm not spending any more money on rifles, just on ammuntion. And most of my practice which actually matters is dry firing.

    It's not much about the gun - as you know very well.
     

    oneshot onekill

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i feel the late M70 classics are better than the pre-64s were.</div></div> I have never owned one of the M70 Classics but I would imagine you're right because of advances in machining techniques and computer controlled devices. However, I have owned many Pre '64 M70's and there's just something about the way they're built and finished that makes you know that "someone cared when he built this rifle". There's pride in one's workmanship there... Especially in the older ones. I would almost liken it to a GAP customized M700 compared to a Factory M700. I'll stick with my Pre '64 M70's... and M54's
     

    DarinR

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    I just ordered the "One Round War". Sounds like good reading.

    Thanks for everyone's input!

    Darin
     

    Chui

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    How would you guys compare what FNHUSA is producing today - drop forged receiver and bolt, etc., etc?
     

    our gang

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    Everything I have read says it's great but pricey. I'm still at a loss to see, why given the choice, you would seek out an old rifle with no factory support (M 70) or a new one with spotty QC and that almost begs for upgrades (700) over a Kimber?
    I own all three and were I buying a new rifle it would be another Kimber like this. (84 NRA in 338 Federal, Trijicon 3-9, so light you think it's a 22 and shoots MOA with 185 TSXs)

    DSCN1897.jpg

     

    DarinR

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    The book, "The One-Round War" arrived today. Thanks for the suggestion!! This is the best book on Marine sniper rifle technical data that I have seen.

    Thanks,
    Darin Reiss
    FFL/SOT in Haysville, KS
     

    1911.it

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    Re: Why did Marines go from M70 Win to M700 Rem?

    Maybe because Kimber customer service is less than stellar? The Kimber of today is not the same Kimber of 20 years ago. Just like the Win Model 70 of today is not the same as the pre-64. If you like todays' Kimbers, hurray and more power to you. I'll be keeping my pre-64 and it will be handed down from generation to generation in my family.
     

    Weird one

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    As a gunsmith they all have their positives and negatives. I have had 700s come through that have the scope holes drilled out .030" to one side and reciever faces that were not true. I have also seen bolt lugs on pre 64s that were only bearing one one lug and split tangs and goofed up triggers. There are lots of things that can be wrong with a gun and it will still work and shoot just fine. NONE of them are the "holy grail" of shooting, find what works for you and stay with it. I shoot different stuff all the time and they are all good and bad. When I get to shoot what I want to ( belongs to me ) I always grab an M1 or M14 because that is what I am most comfortable with and no, I'm not that old, just what I like and I can hit with them... consistently, of course the M84, Lyman Alaskan and ARTII do help. :) These things are made by people and as such are subject to mistakes. I own both 70 and 700 and as far as parts the 700 is far easier to get parts for. In the process of building an M40a1 and had to make my own repro trig. guard because I couldn't find a pre-war at a decent price. Spent more in time but got what I wanted and felt better because I didn't fill someone else's pocket... good practice too. :)
     

    PKRobbins

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    Own to new M70 Classics - 2012 built .264 Win Mag, Featherweight, and 2013 built .257 Bob Featherweight, they are the finest out of the box light rifles I have ever shot, the 264 blew me away shooting 3/4" 3 shot groups (I know its just three but this is a pencil barrel) at 150yds with Nosler factory loads. Trigger is adjustable pretty decent and the action is far smoother than any of the new 700s. Not hating on Remington though, I've got a Model 7 CDL in .308 setting in layaway right now
     

    jeffersonv

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    I've seen one poster say the model 70 is about twice as strong as the model 70 and another say the model 70 is only stronger in the front.

    I don't think the second comment could be made unless you are just looking at pictures or something. If you are holding both actions in your hands I think you would lean toward the "twice as strong" comment. Model 70 actions are beefy and not just in front because they have a flat base which requires more material along the bottom of the action.

    I like rifles that go bang so I could be happy with either if it shot good but I prefer the Model 70. They are robust as hell and avoid some of the feeding problems that are common to the M 700.

    Again, the M700 is a fine action as well and have their own advantages. Options are good!
     
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    sandwarrior

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    Funny too as some of the original comments from 5 years ago state Winchester never pursued a sniper rifle with the military. Not true, they got dumped on every time they went in to try and get one approved.
     

    Trapshooter12

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    Funny too as some of the original comments from 5 years ago state Winchester never pursued a sniper rifle with the military. Not true, they got dumped on every time they went in to try and get one approved.

    The part I remember reading is that Winchester didn't want to make the request changes to their design and basically
    said take it or leave it. Remington made the requested changes and won the contract.
     

    IPSC

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    No one seems to mention the faster lock-time of the 700 over the 70. An aid to accuracy. Plus....the Mauser-type extractor with controlled feed of the 70, is extremely important if the rifle was a battle rifle (as used by the Germans in WWII in the model 98), but somewhat less-so important to have for the greater shot distances distances used.... and (typically) the-deliberate-shot-fired-at-a-time.....that a sniper typically employs.
     

    LRJammer

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    Maybe because Kimber customer service is less than stellar? The Kimber of today is not the same Kimber of 20 years ago. Just like the Win Model 70 of today is not the same as the pre-64. If you like todays' Kimbers, hurray and more power to you. I'll be keeping my pre-64 and it will be handed down from generation to generation in my family.

    Kimber wasnt even making the M-70 copy action back then. If memory serves me right, all they made back then was a 22 Rimfire.
     

    sandwarrior

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    The part I remember reading is that Winchester didn't want to make the request changes to their design and basically
    said take it or leave it. Remington made the requested changes and won the contract.

    What changes were those? IPSC brought up a good point about lock time. Trigger adjustment is another one I could see. One thing I could NOT see is changing the claw extractor. Winchesters claw was tapered on the front so it would pop over the rim of a round and chamber it correctly. Many versions of the older Mausers did not have that feature. Just a blunt front to the claw that would not let it go over.

    FWIW, when the two came head to head with each other the M40 was clearly inferior to the M70. The round it used being a big part of it. During Viet Nam, sniper units were allowed to load their own rounds. I was surprised to hear this, as it didn't happen prior to, or after Viet Nam. At least that I know it happening officially or not.

    Also, the M70, while adopted, never was the primary sniper rifle. The 1903 was. Then the M1C/D Garand. The M70 was only 'approved for service'. It's contract and acquisition was through Recreation services. However, Winchester did approach both the Marines and Army about a sniper rifle in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam. Each time they pushed an accurized version of the M70. They never felt the M1, which they built, was a better sniper rifle due to it's accuracy.

    There is a good discussion on this in the Vintage Sniper Rifle section. It started over the pic of Carlos Hathcock and the rifle they gave him in 1979 after his retirement.


    Added: The biggest reason Winchester got dumped on in WWII and Korea was Ordnance did not want another item coming through the supply chain. Seriously, they said they couldn't support another weapon.
     
    Last edited:

    longshooter

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    In a pinch, the Mauser claw can be made to pop over the rim of a chambered round by squeezing the middle of the extractor inward toward the bolt while cycling the bolt at the beginning of the closing ramp.
     

    10generation

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    I'm a big fan of the Model 70. I've got a pre-64 and a new FN. Both are excellent rifles. The workmanship on the new FN rifles is outstanding. I like the CRF action, but many love the 700. In general, seems like the tactical shooters have built around the 700 and the hunting side has a bit of bias to the mauser/model 70 actions. Both work.
     

    IPSC

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    To note.... commercial Mauser 98 actions typically have a beveled front-edge of the extractor to allow more easy snap-over on a chambered round. The military Mausers don't have a beveled front edge but many have been modified to have that for exactly that reason.
     

    longshooter

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    Mine does. I can't speak for all Mausers, but my 1937 WW2 North African capture definitely has a bevel sufficient enough for snap over. I imagine the bevel is more for fitting the corresponding bevel in the brass case, and for ejection. Nonetheless, it snaps over.
     

    sandwarrior

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    Mine does. I can't speak for all Mausers, but my 1937 WW2 North African capture definitely has a bevel sufficient enough for snap over. I imagine the bevel is more for fitting the corresponding bevel in the brass case, and for ejection. Nonetheless, it snaps over.

    I want to say that started in WWI with rifles made for Germany(?) I have several of the South American versions (built prior to WWI) without sufficient taper to 'pop' over the rim. All made by DWM. As Longshooter noted squeezing the body of the extractor helps push the head out. This only works on some Mausers as the cut-out for the extractor on the barrel wasn't deep enough.
     

    DarinR

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    Haysville, Kansas
    Wow, I almost forgot asking the question five years ago. I have had a few M70's built on FN actions since then. Very please with the design.

    Darin
     

    mark5pt56

    Gunny Sergeant
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
    Nov 20, 2005
    2,208
    370
    Florida
    Oldest thread ressurection I've ever witnessed.

    6 years. Impressive.


    Indeed! I have a FN action at GAP right now and a TA at Manners, can't wait! It will be a "Rock" version but with the FN action.