Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

[Tactical30]

I was just loading some 170gr. Sierra Flat Nose Pro-Hunter Bullets up for my 30-30 Winchester and noticed the data as I flipped thru a couple manuals.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Here is the data I found for the 170gr. Sierra FN and Win748</span>:

Hornady Book: 36.5 gr.
Sierra Book: 31.7 gr.
Speer Book: 34.0 gr.
Hodgdon Manual: 32.0 gr.

4.8 grs. below Hornady Data! Wow. Or maybe Hornady is a little more close to reality.

I could see how new reloaders can get confused. First thing I did when I started reloading was buy a couple reloading manuals and you could see the difference in charges. I always want to compare a couple books before i start a load up.

I always knew Sierra was conservative but this is the first 5.0gr. difference I think I ever seen in books.

 

[Teggy1]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

There are so many variables it's hard to say who is closer, and closer to what, or where.

I have found, as many here state, our books, are REFERENCES. I personally have gone WAY over what the books say before seeing pressure signs. That is here, what would it have done there? where ever there is.

 

[ED_RN]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

You are comparing apples to oranges. Each used different brass, primers, and test platforms to arrive at the data.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

I have noticed Sierra as conservative compared to the Hornaday and Nosler books, but like others have said, they make good starting points.

My 70 blitz load was a full 250 -300 fps faster than what sierra said it could do.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

"4.8 grs. below Hornady Data! Wow. Or maybe Hornady is a little more close to reality."

Or maybe both actually list the data they obtained in their own rifles and they didn't use the same rifles? Perhaps if they did, their results would be a very close match.

Anyway. why do you jump to a conclusion that Hornady's hotter charges are more correct or that they might automatically better suit YOUR rifle? I assure you, such untested conclusions are potentially risky.

I never suggest noobs have more than one manual for a long time. Two or more books invaribaly causes more confusion than help when the data doesn't match and they don't know which way to go; meaning they are too inexperienced to deal with variables.

 

[EWP]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Do you really think two different rifles with SAAMI chambers could be 5.0gr's apart? thats a helluva difference in chamber pressure and their has to be some other standard that only permits using commercial cases and what not so I'm sure neither used Military brass and I just don't see primers or seating depth making that kind of difference in a controlled test.

From all my testing Sierra is way low vs all my test data, their .223 AR data is a joke because they used a Colt rifle with a .223 SAAMI chamber instead of a 5.56 chamber.

My Sierra manual is usually the last manual I get down to check charge weights if I even check it.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Sierra manual = doorstop.

Actually, if you use their data for matching up powders, chamberings, and bullet weights, it is pretty good.

Just plan on boosting the powder loads some.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Sierra manual is well known for being very conservative. Their max 175 SMK load with Varget is 42grns which is what Hodgdon's starting load is.

If you are using Hodgdon, IMR or Win powders do yourself a favor and go to Hodgdon's site and use their reloading data center.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[Brutas]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

The .30-30 Winchester is one of the oldest cartridges that is still in common use. It was originally loaded with black powder. There are many rifles that are well over 100 years old still being used. While a modern rifle will be able to with stand much higher pressures, these old rifles just can't cut it. Check out the loads for the .45-70, same thing. Lawyers cover their ass.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Astute Handloading Manual publishers fully understand that owning the means to perform handloading is no guarantee of sufficient intelligence and/or any commitment to do so responsibly.

They also understand that there is a wide range of firearms in existence, that no predictions can be made about which ones are involved, and that some of them will reasonably require a conservative approach to handloading.

Their published data prudently reflects such conditions.

When I post handloading data, I try to carefully check to ensure it does not conflict with the limits of prudent published data.

But I can't honestly make any such guarantee, or be responsible for error on anyone's part including my own, which is why I try to make that effort, and am making this statement now.

Greg

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

I posted a similar thread to this recently.
For both the .308 and 7.62 x 54R I'm loading for- with SMK's- the Sierra <span style="font-style: italic">maximum</span> loads were less than Hodgdon's published <span style="font-style: italic">minimum</span> (Varget).

Yeah, I get there are some variables. But a different primer sure as hell can't account for those kind of differences.

Since it's Hodgon's powder, I chose to go by their load data- which was generally verified by posts/load data I found here on this forum...

 

[vman]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

I love Sierra products, but their data does not get any of my attention

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

EWP: "Do you really think two different rifles with SAAMI chambers could be 5.0gr's apart?"

A large part of it, yes. An experienced loader knows that more goes into it that just that but anyone asking these questions is unlikely to be highly experienced.

There is no way we can spoon feed the needed experience on the web. No matter how proficent a writer or reloader anyone may be there will always be others who seek to establish themselves with divergent opinions that may or may not help and the confused OP soon has no idea which is what.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

The latest manuals seem more conservative since the '80's from them. Yet, I've come across some cartridges I load for from them that are pretty close to my max when I reach the top point.

The biggest thing I get from a manual is a safe starting point from which I can work up loads.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

My load testing for a new bullet/propellant choice always begins with pressure testing. I use relatively broad increments, 2 cartidges of each, starting and ending within the published min/max load limits. Working up, each fired case is carefully reviewed for pressure signs before proceding to the next increment. Whether or not the presures signs at max indicate questionable pressure, I will try for an accuracy mode within the published limits.

If no such node can be found, I am more likely to change propellants than to venture outside published limits. Several decades of reloading have suggested to me that this is a good policy. Running hot loads always come with a price, and I don't see any bargains in the practice.

Greg

 

[former naval person]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Someone who works up maximum loads for his .30-30 Savage bolt gun, the gives them to a friend who inherited an early 1890's Winny 94...may be visiting him in the hospital. JMHO

 

[Kinsman]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Loading for a lever gun is a whole nuther thing.
I speak not from broad experience, but after lengthy conversations with reloaders of much greater knowledge.
What I have gleaned from these exchanges is that by the time a load for a lever gun reaches pressure signs that are acceptable in a bolt gun, you probably have exceeded the safe pressure in the lever gun.
The Sierra loads for 30-30 and 45-70 for example, reflect safe pressures for the lever guns, and can be loaded much higher in a bolt gun.

 

[samnev]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

I called Sierra and asked about the big difference in their loads compared to the other manuals. The tech I talked to said it was because they had noticed presure deviations in their tesing due to ambient temperature and barrel heating. This determined what loads they considered to be safe. Don't know how valid what I was told is but that's what I was told.

 

[EWP]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EWP: "Do you really think two different rifles with SAAMI chambers could be 5.0gr's apart?"

A large part of it, yes. An experienced loader knows that more goes into it that just that but anyone asking these questions is unlikely to be highly experienced.

There is no way we can spoon feed the needed experience on the web. No matter how proficent a writer or reloader anyone may be there will always be others who seek to establish themselves with divergent opinions that may or may not help and the confused OP soon has no idea which is what. </div></div>

I wasnt really asking.

And no two rifles using SAAMI approved chambers cant be 5gr's apart, not and be tested to the same published max pressure, not to mention most use test barrels that are pretty much identical for the most popular cartridges.

Sure they can be a grain or two but not 5gr's.

Most companies don't publish compressed loads for what ever reason so regardless if pressure is near max once powder fill reaches a certain point they stop regardless of the pressure and this is why the gap is so large between many companies.

Hornady is bad about this and any company that test to a certain velocity only and not peak chamber pressure are also not loading based on chamber pressure so a real comparison of max powder charge can't be made between those that do and those that don't.

 

[Clark]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Reloading manuals are only loosely connected to SAAMI standards.

SAAMI standards are only loosely connected to reality.

The whole system is good enough for beginners.

 

[ED_RN]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

Do what ever you want, but loading data is not meant to be equal across the spectrum.

Geez in 308 Sierra used Federal Brass
Geez the current online Hoddon data used Win Brass

Does that make a difference? You bet!

It makes no sense for comparison till you are using at least the same components!

 

[Clark]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Here is the data I found for the 170gr. Sierra FN and Win748</span>:
Hornady Book: 36.5 gr.
Sierra Book: 31.7 gr.
Speer Book: 34.0 gr.
Hodgdon Manual: 32.0 gr.</div></div>
I have been shooting 38 gr W748 [all that will fit] with 220 gr in 30-30, but not in a weak action like a 94, 336, or 340. It is in a 219.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Wow, is Sierra Manual Conservative

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I called Sierra and asked about the big difference in their loads compared to the other manuals. The tech I talked to said it was because they had noticed presure deviations in their tesing due to ambient temperature and barrel heating. This determined what loads they considered to be safe. Don't know how valid what I was told is but that's what I was told. </div></div>

FWIW, the large variations I noted in my post above were with Varget. According to Hodgdon- and the main reason I selected Varget for my "beginner's" powder (and still prefer it) is its "insensitivity to hot/cold temperatures". Sierra's explanation holds no merit, at least as far as Varget goes.