WTF is going on with KAC stuff?

[The King]

I gotcha. Im sure that’s right given the pressure increases. The difference in fouling of piston/DI is simply amplified using a can.
I still feel like my DI guns hold better groups than my piston guns, but they do require more maintenance.

I would agree with that as well. My DI's shoot better groups. Hell, the LMT MWS I shoot most of the time shoots better than my AXSR.

That said, I did shoot 5 groups out of a 14.5 LMT MRP piston gun and all of them were sub-moa with match ammo. It was a surprise. the same gun with a 16" piston barrel shot 3" on a good day.

I would love to see a test some day of some fantastic barrel that was just swapped between piston and DI setups to see how much of the delta was related to barrel quality.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'm not gonna say I think there is a better DI AR than the KAC. Although I do sometimes look at a JP as being a contender. I do think if you have an advanced bolt geometry/metallurgy and Ambi controls you are right up there with KAC. They would be in deep shit if Geisele had put Ambi controls on the Super Duty.

I WILL say I don't think the KAC is as good as the new Haenel. Or an HK416. When you toss a can on a gun there is a desirable difference in a piston driven gun IMHO.

Pistons are a solution looking for a problem. Ask the Marine Corps about their bolts breaking and other issues.

People really need to learn this science was figured out almost 20 years ago. DI is superior to Piston in most AR applications.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How is piston better for suppressed?

Its not. Its bullshit spouted by people who don't know what they are talking about.

Virtually all of the high round count AR guns tested outside of DOD that have gone the distance are DI. BCM Fithy 14, bunch of KAC guns and some Colts.

Try to do the same shit with every Piston gun on the market you are breaking parts before the halfway point of a quality DI gun.

There "was" one special niche where a piston gun was superior and it was 15 years ago before modern advancements have already made it obsolete. So obsolete in fact, those 416's were replaced with DI noveske's and KAC uppers.

 

[The King]

Pistons are a solution looking for a problem. Ask the Marine Corps about their bolts breaking and other issues.

People really need to learn this science was figured out almost 20 years ago. DI is superior to Piston in most AR applications.

I enjoy your statistics and reference materials and find you a master of the cutting use of the citation.

 

[TheOE800]

I enjoy your statistics and reference materials and find you a master of the cutting use of the citation.

In your best high school teacher or college professor voice, everyone: “CITE YOUR SOURCES!”

 

[The King]

In your best high school teacher or college professor voice, everyone: “CITE YOUR SOURCES!”

I'm definitely not that guy....until someone tosses out the "you are full of shit" boat anchor. Particularly when someone says "how dare you toss out your extensive personal experience as if it was a fact..."

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Mother fuckers are losing the game so bad they don't even know its already over.

There were 2 main units within the United States military that use/used a piston AR. One was Devgru who actually developed the gun with HK due to a specialized niche (high round count, Short barreled, suppressed). This was before port sizing as well as some more modern AR developments came about to mitigate these issues. The contemporary guns it replaced were all late 1990's vintage guns. They have already been replaced by DI guns. By like 2006-08 the SR15 Mod 0 had already surpassed the 416 in every area.

The other is the USMC, who in their infinite wisdom, used the justification of replacing the M249 SAW which is a squad belt fed machine gun and the primary base of fire for the fire team, with a semi auto 5.56 magazine fed rifle that is heavier than a M4 and less reliable. They have been breaking bolts left and right and the introduction of the M885A1 higher pressures are wrecking havoc on internals. This was just a sly way to get new rifles into the hands of infantrymen who did not need them, as its one of the least casualty producing weapons on the battlefield. They would have been better off investing in newer lightweight Mortars , putting a Carl G in each squad or a few more F35B's. Since the Marine Corps leadership like the rest of the US government is run by fucking morons, this is the result you get.

A DI gun is cheaper, more accurate, easier to maintain, easier to replace parts, lighter, more reliable across a wide spectrum of environments, and has a lower recoil impulse all things being equal. That is why it has been a staple and the longest serving rifle in American History. Unless there is some revolutionary technological leap or more likely, political pressure it will stay that way for a long time.

 

[M4guru]

DEVGRU didn't develop the HK416. The Army unit that did readopted it two more times in open trials. It has had an 18-year run. I like my DI guns too, but it has been very successful with the guys that HK developed it with. DEVGRU adopted it a couple years after the Army fielded it, but they kept it 14 years.

But yeah other than that, SR-15 master race. That gun is awesome and the new ones will be even awesomer whenever they can make enough to release them.

 

[The King]

As for the IAR...you mean when you put a bullet that is pretty much a drill bit with a token jacket of copper around the base loaded to proof round pressure levels in a gun it wasn’t designed for it can do some strange shit?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

DEVGRU didn't develop the HK416. The Army unit that did readopted it two more times in open trials. It has had an 18-year run. I like my DI guns too, but it has been very successful with the guys that HK developed it with. DEVGRU adopted it a couple years after the Army fielded it, but they kept it 14 years.

But yeah other than that, SR-15 master race. That gun is awesome and the new ones will be even awesomer whenever they can make enough to release them.

You were right I made a typo. Brain fart. It was CAG not devgru. Larry helped develop it when he was with the unit.

The Vickers Guide has some great info on it and this video below is the first hand account.

 

[kthomas]

So my Mod 1 sucks now?

 

[jMarine]

So my Mod 1 sucks now?

Yeah. Just give it away man!

 

[jMarine]

I've got to look if I still have one. But I'm pretty sure I do

Any luck?

 

[Charger442]

Any luck?

Yes I have one. Part km20495.

What are you trying to do? Since they are hens tooth rare, I'm weary of shipping it out. If you pay shipping both ways, I'll do whatever work you want on it.

 

[TheGerman]

I think you’ll eventually be able to get some spare KAC parts but these are never gonna be for us lowly poors again unless the economy crashes and guys are fire selling shit to pay for their McMansions.

Key is going to be us, as a whole, to stop panic buying shit and sitting on it. Spares is a good thing, but do any of us need 3 lifetimes worth at 300% cost because that is what’s happening.

I like that you already have proven platforms with commonality to your team. One rifle goes down hard, say, breaks a lower etc. it just became spares for all the other guns. There would be some comfort in that for me.

I've been waiting for exactly this for at least a year.

When all the stimulus bullshit and unemployment extensions were slated to end, I figured, any day now, we're going to be awash in brand new dumb shit all of the poors bought with their 'free' money that they now can't afford.

Credit is still cheap and Target pays total fucking failures at life $25/hr all of a sudden and that didn't materialize, yet.

Yet.

The interest rate hike and the mention that it will continue to rise each month until the end of the year is the beginning of the end. It's already slowed the housing market which in turn will effect supply costs and lumber. It will also shake off all of the shitty cut throat 'contractors' at some point. When the housing market slows further, it'll start making all of those 'my house is my biggest investment' retards sweat. They'll see that the house next to them has been on the market for 2/3 of what they paid for theirs and it isn't selling. I saw this happen wholesale in Florida. I will not feel bad for any of them and will instead mercilessly low-ball them before they are foreclosed on.

That's when people selling off all their shit occurs. I'm still waiting as this time, I see it as a giant opportunity at the expense of people who I actually wish pain onto.

 

[FatBoy]

Unfortunately some good people will get caught up in bad situations but I have lived in the same little 1100sqft house since ‘98. Raised a daughter here, etc. Buy used cars and work in them myself. I don’t have to worry about working just to pay a house or car note. Allows us to travel some and if I want something I just buy it (within reason, (not TheHorta money) I could have (should have) bought land a few years back but living within my means and saving some each month has me less worried about what’s coming, even if I do lose my job.

Finding parts doesn’t worry me either. We’ll see if this food shortage comes to fruition. Then Shit gets real….

 

[jMarine]

Yes I have one. Part km20495.

What are you trying to do? Since they are hens tooth rare, I'm weary of shipping it out. If you pay shipping both ways, I'll do whatever work you want on it.

I understand completely! I wouldn’t mind shipping to you. I’m just wanting to install the URX rail onto an upper. But I’m looking at KAC website and it’s showing 20495 to be the SR-15 wrench. The SR-25 is 23383

 

[Milf Dots]

For those of us who've owned and like both Di and Piston - - one of the things many appreciate about piston ARs compared to Di is the ease and speed of cleaning- piston guns are just easier to maintain and require less maintenance overall.

I posted a thread about the Army ordering 35,000 NGSW rifles- though the docs didn't reveal which of the two remaining contenders got the nod. Both are of course piston designs.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

For those of us who've owned and like both Di and Piston - - one of the things many appreciate about piston ARs compared to Di is the ease and speed of cleaning- piston guns are just easier to maintain and require less maintenance overall.

I posted a thread about the Army ordering 35,000 NGSW rifles- though the docs didn't reveal which of the two remaining contenders got the nod. Both are of course piston designs.

Thats not true. It takes just as much time to clean a piston gun, in fact more if you have to break the gas piston down. Maintenance is much less with the DI gun as far as PM.

 

[Charger442]

I understand completely! I wouldn’t mind shipping to you. I’m just wanting to install the URX rail onto an upper. But I’m looking at KAC website and it’s showing 20495 to be the SR-15 wrench. The SR-25 is 23383

Oops sorry. It's not for a large frame

 

[jMarine]

Oops sorry. It's not for a large frame

no prob man. Got me excited for a second!

 

[Milf Dots]

Thats not true. It takes just as much time to clean a piston gun, in fact more if you have to break the gas piston down. Maintenance is much less with the DI gun as far as PM.

That's not true. Piston rifles run cleaner longer because they don't foul the action like a Di gun. Maintenance is less with piston guns. The BCG can go many more thousands of rounds than Di and still be so clean that just a quick wipe down is needed. Cleaning the piston assembly is quick and easy- just pop the valve open and pull the rod and spring, wipe, lube, and reinstall. Again, piston ARs don't foul the action like Di.

 

[TheOE800]

So my Mod 1 sucks now?

Nah the Mod 2 is more better and you can turn your Mod 1 into two of them.

 

[Makinchips208]

So my Mod 1 sucks now?

Fifty bucks?

 

[MCSO1357]

None of ya'll can have my MOD2 CQB unless the going price eclipses $7500 US, I would like to find a KAC suppressor but have thus far been unable to locate one that isn't fucking insanely priced..

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That's not true. Piston rifles run cleaner longer because they don't foul the action like a Di gun. Maintenance is less with piston guns. The BCG can go many more thousands of rounds than Di and still be so clean that just a quick wipe down is needed. Cleaning the piston assembly is quick and easy- just pop the valve open and pull the rod and spring, wipe, lube, and reinstall. Again, piston ARs don't foul the action like Di.

I spent almost 10 years as an armorer and have cleaned more AR's than most people have seen in their lifetimes. It takes about 5-10 minutes to clean a DI AR. Do not need to take apart the rail, take apart the gas system, its easier.

A quality built AR can go longer without cleaning than Most Pistons guns go before they shear a bolt lug. 10-15K with nothing but lube before you start to really see issues. Springs are going to wear out faster than needing to clean the gun.

That was 2010 : https://bravocompanyusa.com/content/Filthy 14 bravo_swat_10.pdf



Quote:

At Columbus, Ohio, in November 2009, we had several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds. The shooter gave it a field cleaning and replaced the extractor and extractor spring. At 28,905 rounds, we finally cleaned Filthy 14. As part of our year-end maintenance schedule, we inspect and replace parts as necessary. Filthy 14 looked like the inside of the crankcase of Uncle Ed’s ’49 Packard. It was disgusting to look at and contaminated everything near it, somewhat like the toner cartridges for old printers.

This is what happens when people start talking about shit like they are a SME when they barley have a basic understanding of the subject.

This piston bullshit was hashed out over 15 years ago and its still a solution looking for a problem. It gets tiresome having to repeat the same shit because people can't be bothered to educate themselves despite the plethora of information available at their fingertips.

 

[The King]

I spent almost 10 years as an armorer and have cleaned more AR's than most people have seen in their lifetimes. It takes about 5-10 minutes to clean a DI AR. Do not need to take apart the rail, take apart the gas system, its easier.

A quality built AR can go longer without cleaning than Most Pistons guns go before they shear a bolt lug. 10-15K with nothing but lube before you start to really see issues. Springs are going to wear out faster than needing to clean the gun.

That was 2010 : https://bravocompanyusa.com/content/Filthy 14 bravo_swat_10.pdf



Quote:

At Columbus, Ohio, in November 2009, we had several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds. The shooter gave it a field cleaning and replaced the extractor and extractor spring. At 28,905 rounds, we finally cleaned Filthy 14. As part of our year-end maintenance schedule, we inspect and replace parts as necessary. Filthy 14 looked like the inside of the crankcase of Uncle Ed’s ’49 Packard. It was disgusting to look at and contaminated everything near it, somewhat like the toner cartridges for old printers.

This is what happens when people start talking about shit like they are a SME when they barley have a basic understanding of the subject.

This piston bullshit was hashed out over 15 years ago and its still a solution looking for a problem. It gets tiresome having to repeat the same shit because people can't be bothered to educate themselves despite the plethora of information available at their fingertips.

You have made a lot of assumptions about who you might run into on this site. And what their level of experience may or may not be.

There is a lot of information put out by vendors of DI AR15s that tell you how cool they are. I know. I used to be one of them. Just like piston guns.

If I could go back and change something I would have taken more classes with Pat. He was a cool guy for sure and his passing meant we were lesser. Work paid for it all and if I had hit some more overtime I think I could have utilized the training budget better instead of working day shifts through the training days. The DI Larue I ran in classes was just fine, but cans weren’t as widespread as they are now.

Now unless I need to reach out at distance I pick an LMT piston every time. I don’t shoot anything unsuppressed anymore. And I’m not any more worried about my LMT bolt eating shit with the piston carrier wrapped around it than I am with the DI one I use for .300 blackout.

I simply want more fouling budget before the gun needs lube RFN. And the piston system does that for me.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You have made a lot of assumptions about who you might run into on this site. And what their level of experience may or may not be.

There is a lot of information put out by vendors of DI AR15s that tell you how cool they are. I know. I used to be one of them. Just like piston guns.

If I could go back and change something I would have taken more classes with Pat. He was a cool guy for sure and his passing meant we were lesser. Work paid for it all and if I had hit some more overtime I think I could have utilized the training budget better instead of working day shifts through the training days. The DI Larue I ran in classes was just fine, but cans weren’t as widespread as they are now.

Now unless I need to reach out at distance I pick an LMT piston every time. I don’t shoot anything unsuppressed anymore. And I’m not any more worried about my LMT bolt eating shit with the piston carrier wrapped around it than I am with the DI one I use for .300 blackout.

View attachment 7847998
I simply want more fouling budget before the gun needs lube RFN. And the piston system does that for me.

There are plenty of people on this site who on are turned on and know their shit. I have worked with some over the last 2 decades but they don't seem to be posting in this thread for the same reason they don't post in most. It gets old having to repeat the same shit over.

Pat was a fantastic instructor and one of the OG's of modern tactical training. I only got to take one course with him but alot of his drills and lessons stuck to this day. He was a good sport while most of the class was former army dudes talking shit about the Marines.

I have owned and ran just about everything out there. Sold the SCARs, Sr25's and the LMT's as i got out mostly of the precision semi auto game and into the PRS and rimfire stuff. No point in having all that money sitting in safe not getting shot. The SCAR is a great platform and IMO the best battle rifle out there all things considered. Next would be the SR-25 with the MWS right on its heels. Both have pros and cons with the refinement and soft shooting favoring the KAC. The barrel change system really is the game changer and what makes the MWS hard to beat, not to mention the price is much more palatable. If you are shooting out barrels, the MWS is a no brainer. Notice 2/3 of those are DI guns.

For a small frame fighting gun, there is no reason (unless as Larry points out, you have very specific needs) to not run a quality DI gun. Its a superior platform for just about every user. The platform is mature and proven. If a piston AR was the solution the majority of SOCOM would be running one. They have been weighed, measured, tested and found wanting with the exception of a few JSOC units with special requirements, who by the way, have already replaced the piston with a DI gun. All those great benefits the ignorant masses spew about pistons guns..... yea no one cares.

 

[JustSendit]

I am 13 months waiting on a order (cert) and the rep said 12-18 more months. Crazy.

 

[M4guru]

The URX SR25 barrel nut wrench. I’ve been wanting to pick up the 3.1 for my AR but can’t find the wrench anywhere. Not to mention the KAC ones are 400 bucks

I do indeed have one, along with the correct action rod.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

When I was at KAC HQ/Lawmans about 6 months ago they were still letting people get on waiting list for SR15s and SR25's. They actually had SR25 lowers in stock and I was able to snag one.

 

[Milf Dots]

The amount of misinformation, perhaps accidental, about piston ARs is stunning... One doesn't have to 'remove handguards' to access pistons on many of the top piston ARs like the Barrett, LMT, Sig 516, one just needs to remove the plug at the front of the gas block and pull the piston assembly straight out.

Piston guns run better on SBRs and/or with cans. That's objective fact.

Another fact- piston guns are quicker and easier to do PM on because they don't shit where they eat like Di guns do.

The U.S. military is slowly moving away from Di and toward piston- they just ordered 35,000 30,000 piston driven NGSW rifles.

People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.

If the Army had the choice of both the ar15 and ar18 at the same time in history- they may have chosen the ar18, and if that were the case, virtually no military would be moving toward the very dirty Di system.

ETA: if memory serves me- the Colt 6940P piston pulls straight out the front too.

Edited for accuracy: the number of NGSW rifles ordered was 30,000, not 35,000.

 

[Makinchips208]

…they just ordered 35,000 piston driven NGSW.

For reals? Which one?

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I have a sponsor who wants me to shoot their guns

I look forward to you taking over QC at PSA. Please let us know when you plan to formally announce.

 

[Milf Dots]

Additionally, the m4 didn't really mature until the troops/DoD helped Colt work out some major shortcomings- the result is the m4a1.

One of the biggest reasons many SOF have moved back to Di is this: if the SOF units buy M4a1s- big army pays the tab. If SOF buys SCARs, 416s, SIg MCX, etc., that comes out of SOF's budget. In the former cases the logic is the m4a1 is 'good enough' that they're okay with saving that SOF budget money to spend on other needs. 'Good enough' doesn't mean "better than piston".

It's also interesting to observe that the consumer AR market has been moving for a while toward mid length gas systems and away from carbine length- proving again that the Di system is STILL maturing.

 

[jMarine]

I do indeed have one, along with the correct action rod.

Hell yeah!! So if I send you the receiver, barrel, rail, and maybe gas block, you’d be willing to get it installed for me? I’ll shoot you some dough for your time and return shipping.

 

[strikeeagle1]

This happy thread began as a simple discussion inquiry as to current extraordinary KAC demand / supply pricing and then turned down into the which-one is the superlative, piston v. DI mechanics rabbit hole.

On the civilian side, 5.56 ammo is basically $1.00 / round.
At 3-4K rounds you have matched the cost of an entire new upper, the barrel and the ammo are expendable at current ammo pricing.

Why worry about 10K-15K round count failures? Run it until it doesn’t, then buy another. Nothing to see here, move along please.

Everyone has different levels of cleaning cleanliness benchmarks for their guns, if it works for the individual why point them in a different direction of cleanliness.

Former deployed military, I have quite of few of both these AR mechanical systems and at the civilian level I don’t appreciate one system being better performance than the other. I find the piston seems less filthy than DI’s when shooting suppressed.

A few I shoot.

 

[camocorvette]

Wait, you don't want to pay 4k for $700 dollars of shit a monkey can assemble? Maybe a $1000 if it has a barrel that shoots.

Seeing them for 3800 and 4k in the px. Hahahaha GET FUCKED. I don't give a shit if they never make another one.

 

[houndog]

I've run both piston and DI guns and like them both. But don't piston guns have advantages in some areas?

For example, I've always just taken it on faith that piston guns are a better option if you are running suppressed. (Don't have any personal experience with this, since the three suppressors I recently bought are still in jail). Am I wrong in this belief? Won't the piston's generally stay cleaner, run more reliably and vent less gas back at me? The last consideration is particularly important to me since I shoot lefty.

Finally, my understanding is that when LMT was developing a rifle for Estonia, it had a choice between piston and DI and deliberately spec'd. piston. So there are some military users that have made the determination that for their intended used a piston gun is superior.

And to bring the discussion back to KAC ... while I do own 1 KAC upper, at current prices I doubt I'd buy another, particularly when I can buy DD, LMT or Geissele for a fraction of the price. Sure KAC may have a superior BCG, but it's proprietary and when I can buy a decent Toolcraft BCG for $79 and keep a couple of spares in stock going the KAC route just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[TheOE800]

For example, I've always just taken it on faith that piston guns are a better option if you are running suppressed. (Don't have any personal experience with this, since the three suppressors I recently bought are still in jail). Am I wrong in this belief? Won't the piston's generally stay cleaner, run more reliably and vent less gas back at me? The last consideration is particularly important to me since I shoot lefty.

My SCAR 17S wouldn’t run reliably suppressed, end of story.

Also Europeans are gay and have always liked pistons more than DI, it’s a historical bias.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

For reals? Which one?

First of all, He doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

The Army has not even down selected a design yet. They are scheduled to in Q4, 2022 but that doesn't mean shit.

You know how many times the Army tried to replace the M4 with piston guns, with each one failing? Even after getting all the way to the award and delivery stage, they fizzled out.

It will be a long time before they become standard issue in any unit, if they ever do. There will by an IDIQ and they could order 50 or 50,000, but it will be a LONG time before they are ordering 35K rifles if ever.

This round of trials has a host of technological and logistical challenges that haven't even began to be addressed.

Its 10 times more likely they will adopt the new Vortex Ranging optic on existing rifles than go forward with this new service rifle. It will give them 95% of the capability for a fraction of the cost, while not creating a host of logistical nightmares.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The amount of misinformation, perhaps accidental, about piston ARs is stunning... One doesn't have to 'remove handguards' to access pistons on many of the top piston ARs like the Barrett, LMT, Sig 516, one just needs to remove the plug at the front of the gas block and pull the piston assembly straight out.

Piston guns run better on SBRs and/or with cans. That's objective fact.

Another fact- piston guns are quicker and easier to do PM on because they don't shit where they eat like Di guns do.

The U.S. military is slowly moving away from Di and toward piston- they just ordered 35,000 piston driven NGSW rifles.

People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.

If the Army had the choice of both the ar15 and ar18 at the same time in history- they may have chosen the ar18, and if that were the case, virtually no military would be moving toward the very dirty Di system.

ETA: if memory serves me- the Colt 6940P piston pulls straight out the front too.

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong so much wrong I shouldn't even bother but lets go.

First of all most of the piston designs you are mentioned are shit. The only one remotely decent is the LMT and that one has its own set of issues, Ask the Kiwis how many fucking bolts and firing pins they have broken and had to send back to get fixed/repaired. Even their bolt carriers are starting to shit the bed, which is an unheard of issue with a DI m4/M16. Its not on the level of the 416 , nothing is in the AR platform. The one LMT gun that actually has proven pedigree of service, the L129A1, is a DI gun.

Pistons do not necessarily run better with cans. Depends on gun, can, settings ect. Blanket statements like this are retarded.

US military issuing slowly moving to shit. The only units that are is the USMC infantry and they are getting to learn first hand how fucking dumb that decision was.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, yet here we are 60 years from adoption and its still the dominate western carbine/service rifle. The tip of the spear down to the fat cooks and truck drivers are all carrying a DI gun. Tens of billions have been spent on programs from the OICW, XM8, 6.8 SPC, SCAR program and a bunch of others you never heard of with the same result. The DI m4 is a better overall weapon system.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Wait, you don't want to pay 4k for $700 dollars of shit a monkey can assemble? Maybe a $1000 if it has a barrel that shoots.

Seeing them for 3800 and 4k in the px. Hahahaha GET FUCKED. I don't give a shit if they never make another one.

Poor people noises.

 

[Milf Dots]

First of all, He doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

The Army has not even down selected a design yet. They are scheduled to in Q4, 2022 but that doesn't mean shit.

You know how many times the Army tried to replace the M4 with piston guns, with each one failing? Even after getting all the way to the award and delivery stage, they fizzled out.

It will be a long time before they become standard issue in any unit, if they ever do. There will by an IDIQ and they could order 50 or 50,000, but it will be a LONG time before they are ordering 35K rifles if ever.

This round of trials has a host of technological and logistical challenges that haven't even began to be addressed.

Its 10 times more likely they will adopt the new Vortex Ranging optic on existing rifles than go forward with this new service rifle. It will give them 95% of the capability for a fraction of the cost, while not creating a host of logistical nightmares.

Did you forget you replied to my thread about the Army ordering 30,000 NGSW rifles?!

• Apr 4, 2022
• #17

"These are only going to infantry/SF/Close combat units like engineers, cav, ect.

Paired with the new Vortex optic it will be a game changer. Doctrine will have to change, but sprinkle a few of these into an infantry squad and you bring some new capabilities while fleshing out the system. Having a laser, ballistic calc and reticle that tells you where to hold is going to increase lethality, especially fighting near peers who don't run around getting alah snackbared.

HE is still the king when it comes to producting casualties and destroying shit. This will help elements manuever and get effective fire on targets as well as relay intel back for airstrikes, arty, indirect, drones, ect."

U.S. Army to procure 30,000 Next Gen Squad Weapons/NGSW in 2023

But they still haven't said if they'll be Sig's SPEAR or the Textron bullpup offerings: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/03/31/us-army-30000-next-generation-squad-weapons-2023/

www.snipershide.com

 

[camocorvette]

Poor people noises.

 

[camocorvette]

I would never say my aero, colt, psa, etc is better.
1400-1800. Maybe 2200 if it's got the sights, bcg.. idk a fucking sling...

The value of a dollar is shit. The value of a KAC is more then a dollar. But it ain't worth that many of my fake dollars.

 

[Milf Dots]

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong so much wrong I shouldn't even bother but lets go.

First of all most of the piston designs you are mentioned are shit. The only one remotely decent is the LMT and that one has its own set of issues, Ask the Kiwis how many fucking bolts and firing pins they have broken and had to send back to get fixed/repaired. Even their bolt carriers are starting to shit the bed, which is an unheard of issue with a DI m4/M16. Its not on the level of the 416 , nothing is in the AR platform. The one LMT gun that actually has proven pedigree of service, the L129A1, is a DI gun.

Pistons do not necessarily run better with cans. Depends on gun, can, settings ect. Blanket statements like this are retarded.

US military issuing slowly moving to shit. The only units that are is the USMC infantry and they are getting to learn first hand how fucking dumb that decision was.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, yet here we are 60 years from adoption and its still the dominate western carbine/service rifle. The tip of the spear down to the fat cooks and truck drivers are all carrying a DI gun. Tens of billions have been spent on programs from the OICW, XM8, 6.8 SPC, SCAR program and a bunch of others you never heard of with the same result. The DI m4 is a better overall weapon system.

You're such an emotional basket case that I'm embarrassed for you! On the IL you go.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Did you forget you replied to my thread about the Army ordering 30,000 NGSW rifles?!

• Apr 4, 2022
• #17

"These are only going to infantry/SF/Close combat units like engineers, cav, ect.

Paired with the new Vortex optic it will be a game changer. Doctrine will have to change, but sprinkle a few of these into an infantry squad and you bring some new capabilities while fleshing out the system. Having a laser, ballistic calc and reticle that tells you where to hold is going to increase lethality, especially fighting near peers who don't run around getting alah snackbared.

HE is still the king when it comes to producting casualties and destroying shit. This will help elements manuever and get effective fire on targets as well as relay intel back for airstrikes, arty, indirect, drones, ect."

U.S. Army to procure 30,000 Next Gen Squad Weapons/NGSW in 2023

But they still haven't said if they'll be Sig's SPEAR or the Textron bullpup offerings: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/03/31/us-army-30000-next-generation-squad-weapons-2023/

www.snipershide.com

There is a plan and there is reality. I explained what would happen if made it to that stage

They haven't selected anything yet. We have seen how this plays out before and the odds are against it.

 

[Asiparks]

I'm the only KAC gun(s) but I do have other brands I've accumulated over the years, none of which I've had any issues with. So with that said, yeah, almost everything runs near 100% these days. The only problem I've ever had was when my SR15 CQB decided it wanted to go from a H2 to a H3 all of a sudden.

Hell, one of my complete carbines with the 2nd most rounds through it behind the KAC I have 30+kish through is a Stag flat top back from when 'the chart' existed and a Colt 6920 was the end all be all gun. I'm on the 3rd barrel and Stag used to 'warranty' them but at some point just stopped sending me new barrels. I don't think I've ever had a malfunction with that gun, ever.

Rest of the guns from the guys consist of:

Radian
BCM
LMT
Cobalt Kinetics
Colt

Only problem out of any of them was that after 100ish rounds, the BCM BCG had a weird issue where it would put the round into battery and lock, the trigger would work fine, firing pin did its thing yet the first round just wouldn't fire. Trades out firing pins, same issue. BCM sent a new BCG and its been 100% since then. I'm not counting ammo related bullshit like the extractor ripping part of the soft steel rim off of cheap ass steel case.

Curious if you're considering any pistons-I have a mix of them along with DI and experienced zero downside other than some unique parts-
On the 556 side, I've an old LWRCi a3 still going strong, ( and yes it's a piece of piss to clean and the adjustable gas helps shooting suppressed), and in 308 POF with a 5R barrel from when they were cool back around 2010 ( with everyones' favorite, an IOR scope on top ), as well as a recent POF Revolution both of which do have some clever touches...If the internets are accurate, their QC is spotty of late, but curious if they are "good rifles". I have an MWS, but the older POF isn't worse in any regard. Different, but not worse.
I'm not OAF, just a few thousand rounds a year between the 308s, so it would be a while before I wear anything out...

 

[Near miss]

Ehem, I do not think of guns much in the piston/DI feature but the overall quality and reputation. HK has designed its way around quite many flaws that come with piston design. Those brands that follow the lead seem to have been happy with sub-optimal results, let's say for example, the carrier tilt.

I do not care if the gun cycles with rubber bands, if it works reliably without or with minimal maintenance, I am good with it.
I know DI guns can be set for suppressors but in my experience, I have not yet ran into a DI that runs well on its own and is suppressor ready without modifications.

And does someone really clean the piston in their gun? I have opened it maybe 3 times and it has looked the same every time, be it 100, 1k or 3k ammo since last cleaning.