http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20090829/NEWS01/908290304&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL
My respect for MT FWP just dropped below 0!!
My respect for MT FWP just dropped below 0!!
Hunting & Fishing WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
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Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
I'm curious, why the lack of respect? They caught a "guide" that was doing multiple illegal activities to take game.
The fact that he actually shot the ram? Or what?
Truly curious, don't know the whole story, I'm just interested in your side.
I'm curious, why the lack of respect? They caught a "guide" that was doing multiple illegal activities to take game.
The fact that he actually shot the ram? Or what?
Truly curious, don't know the whole story, I'm just interested in your side.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
I didn't think law officers could break the law while working undercover....
or maybe I watch too much tv??
I didn't think law officers could break the law while working undercover....
or maybe I watch too much tv??
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
Just think of the guys that drew that permit legitimately and were robbed of the opportunity to hunt that world class ram. Hey if the guy is dirty than bust him...but do it without sacrificing a big game animal...especially a great ram like that one. Most of us will never have the opportunity to hunt sheep in a draw area. The odds of drawing that permit are 200 to 1. It just seems like a huge waste to me. Very sad.
Just think of the guys that drew that permit legitimately and were robbed of the opportunity to hunt that world class ram. Hey if the guy is dirty than bust him...but do it without sacrificing a big game animal...especially a great ram like that one. Most of us will never have the opportunity to hunt sheep in a draw area. The odds of drawing that permit are 200 to 1. It just seems like a huge waste to me. Very sad.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just think of the guys that drew that permit legitimately and were robbed of the opportunity to hunt that world class ram. Hey if the guy is dirty than bust him...but do it without sacrificing a big game animal...especially a great ram like that one. Most of us will never have the opportunity to hunt sheep in a draw area. The odds of drawing that permit are 200 to 1. It just seems like a huge waste to me. Very sad. </div></div>
Jason, I couldn't of said it any better than PGS.
The guy that pulled the trigger should be in the hot seat for killing that Ram.
Killing that animal without a valid license is a $30,000 fine for most folks!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just think of the guys that drew that permit legitimately and were robbed of the opportunity to hunt that world class ram. Hey if the guy is dirty than bust him...but do it without sacrificing a big game animal...especially a great ram like that one. Most of us will never have the opportunity to hunt sheep in a draw area. The odds of drawing that permit are 200 to 1. It just seems like a huge waste to me. Very sad. </div></div>
Jason, I couldn't of said it any better than PGS.
The guy that pulled the trigger should be in the hot seat for killing that Ram.
Killing that animal without a valid license is a $30,000 fine for most folks!
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
I'm not happy that he shot the ram, but how many more would have been killed illegally if he hadn't. At what point does he not shoot and the "guides" get suspicious because he missed or passed on a 100 yard shot 2 or 3 times in a row. Obviously in todays world, hard evidence is important, thanks to CSI shows every jury expects to see a smoking gun with DNA and fingerprints all over it. The guide talking about flying over the ram to spot it for him would not of got a conviction.
JCH, I think they do what they need to in order to protect their own safety. It's not like he was making a hit on a mafia member.
I'm not happy that he shot the ram, but how many more would have been killed illegally if he hadn't. At what point does he not shoot and the "guides" get suspicious because he missed or passed on a 100 yard shot 2 or 3 times in a row. Obviously in todays world, hard evidence is important, thanks to CSI shows every jury expects to see a smoking gun with DNA and fingerprints all over it. The guide talking about flying over the ram to spot it for him would not of got a conviction.
JCH, I think they do what they need to in order to protect their own safety. It's not like he was making a hit on a mafia member.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
I understand the motivation behind it. Hell I worked undercover a bunch. However, I think the killing of the ram could have been avoided. I mean after you missed a few times, fake a fall down a slide and call "no mas"
The bring the boys in bust them. After he has taken you out the door with the intended purpose of hunting especially in illegal areas, he's already done wrong.
I understand the motivation behind it. Hell I worked undercover a bunch. However, I think the killing of the ram could have been avoided. I mean after you missed a few times, fake a fall down a slide and call "no mas"
The bring the boys in bust them. After he has taken you out the door with the intended purpose of hunting especially in illegal areas, he's already done wrong.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
I don't disagree Weda', I've never worked undercover and I wasn't there. Just trying not to pass judgement on LEOs without knowing the whole story.
There were some undercover guys in CA working a big bear poaching ring for a couple years undercover. I know they killed bears, I also know that they were told on more than one occasion that if any members of the ring were found out to be LEO that no one would find their bodies.....and these guys weren't joking. They killed a few bears, but learned through working in the ring that hundreds had been killed in the past, so they saved several hundred more by putting them away with hard evidence.
I don't disagree Weda', I've never worked undercover and I wasn't there. Just trying not to pass judgement on LEOs without knowing the whole story.
There were some undercover guys in CA working a big bear poaching ring for a couple years undercover. I know they killed bears, I also know that they were told on more than one occasion that if any members of the ring were found out to be LEO that no one would find their bodies.....and these guys weren't joking. They killed a few bears, but learned through working in the ring that hundreds had been killed in the past, so they saved several hundred more by putting them away with hard evidence.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
J,
I hear ya.
There are some things you do undercover that can't be avoided and to maintain the integrity of the assignment and to "be one of them" legal or illegal you do it.
But in this situation I think there may have been a way out. Albeit, none of us were there so who's to say. But after you're in position for a shot and miss... well all the intentions were there for the bad guys. Now if they were 15 miles in the back country with no plans on coming out till a sheep was killed, things could have been real challenging for the agent. To protect his life, the integrity of the case etc. he might have had no choice.
J,
I hear ya.
There are some things you do undercover that can't be avoided and to maintain the integrity of the assignment and to "be one of them" legal or illegal you do it.
But in this situation I think there may have been a way out. Albeit, none of us were there so who's to say. But after you're in position for a shot and miss... well all the intentions were there for the bad guys. Now if they were 15 miles in the back country with no plans on coming out till a sheep was killed, things could have been real challenging for the agent. To protect his life, the integrity of the case etc. he might have had no choice.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Not sure if I read this or understand, but it appears to me that the undercover agent wasn't named in the charges filed. The three that are charged seem be the ones doing the guiding. The district attorney has the discretion to file charges against the agent. I believe since I was not there that it may have been a situation of shoot the ram or guys with guns are going to get real suspicious about the agent, blowing his cover and the case. I'm sure the agent did not want to take the ram, but maybe it is a case of kill one, save a hundred.
Not sure if I read this or understand, but it appears to me that the undercover agent wasn't named in the charges filed. The three that are charged seem be the ones doing the guiding. The district attorney has the discretion to file charges against the agent. I believe since I was not there that it may have been a situation of shoot the ram or guys with guns are going to get real suspicious about the agent, blowing his cover and the case. I'm sure the agent did not want to take the ram, but maybe it is a case of kill one, save a hundred.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
i do not think the end justifies the means in this case. the charges that got brought up from this sting (possession of illegal game was the only felony) were not sufficient to waste what may be the state record ram. a cell phone call and a helicoptor ride would have gotten the agent out of the hot seat without the kill after the first miss, or hatch a plan that does not involve the possibility of having to kill the ram.
something went amiss with this whole deal. if the ram was taken illegally, the FW&P agent is just as guilty, as he knew the law and pulled the trigger anyway.
i do not think the end justifies the means in this case. the charges that got brought up from this sting (possession of illegal game was the only felony) were not sufficient to waste what may be the state record ram. a cell phone call and a helicoptor ride would have gotten the agent out of the hot seat without the kill after the first miss, or hatch a plan that does not involve the possibility of having to kill the ram.
something went amiss with this whole deal. if the ram was taken illegally, the FW&P agent is just as guilty, as he knew the law and pulled the trigger anyway.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Again, I wasn't there, but..... It seems to me that the "guides" had already committed crimes by using aircraft, radios, and trespassing so why was the ram shot at all? My only guess is that the "guides" having the animal is the only felony involved and that is what was needed, a felony??? As said before, something wrong happened here and the agent is at some fault I believe.
Thanks for posting, pretty interesting.
Again, I wasn't there, but..... It seems to me that the "guides" had already committed crimes by using aircraft, radios, and trespassing so why was the ram shot at all? My only guess is that the "guides" having the animal is the only felony involved and that is what was needed, a felony??? As said before, something wrong happened here and the agent is at some fault I believe.
Thanks for posting, pretty interesting.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
There was no reason to kill the ram.By the time the warden shot the ram they already had these guys on everything short of possession of an illegal animal.Fucker probably wanted to shoot a world record ram all along and had a partial excuse to do it under the law.
There was no reason to kill the ram.By the time the warden shot the ram they already had these guys on everything short of possession of an illegal animal.Fucker probably wanted to shoot a world record ram all along and had a partial excuse to do it under the law.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
i agree, he had enough to take his guide license and hunting privledges. shooting it didnt prove anything, the means of doing it was the illegal part. he was just as wrong as them for crossing private ground and killing it. this isnt training day, you dont have to commit crimes to catch criminals. my dad has been putting in for that tag for 15 years, and just drew it last year and killed a nice ram around the river as well. but will never get that tag again, and many montanans will never get that tag.
just my .02 cents
the game wardens in my neck of the woods back home arent all that great either. one time we were glassing on a ridge on a below zero day and went back to the pickup and there was a game warden sitting inside our truck cuz he hiked up there and got cold.
i agree, he had enough to take his guide license and hunting privledges. shooting it didnt prove anything, the means of doing it was the illegal part. he was just as wrong as them for crossing private ground and killing it. this isnt training day, you dont have to commit crimes to catch criminals. my dad has been putting in for that tag for 15 years, and just drew it last year and killed a nice ram around the river as well. but will never get that tag again, and many montanans will never get that tag.
just my .02 cents
the game wardens in my neck of the woods back home arent all that great either. one time we were glassing on a ridge on a below zero day and went back to the pickup and there was a game warden sitting inside our truck cuz he hiked up there and got cold.
G
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Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP."
Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP."
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP." </div></div>
This is Montana. We don't put up with that bullshit period! These guy's weren't convicted of poaching . The Game Wordon filled those shoes. He killed the #1 Recorded BigHorn Ram in our State.
The Ram was killed to convict the others in this case.
It's NOT legal to kill Game animals here in the State of Montana in those methods used!
Do you work with the Montana Fish and Game Dept?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP." </div></div>
This is Montana. We don't put up with that bullshit period! These guy's weren't convicted of poaching . The Game Wordon filled those shoes. He killed the #1 Recorded BigHorn Ram in our State.
The Ram was killed to convict the others in this case.
It's NOT legal to kill Game animals here in the State of Montana in those methods used!
Do you work with the Montana Fish and Game Dept?
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Like in every reported story there is part of the story, the wrong story, the internet story, and the true story. That article I rate right up there with part of the story, with a lot of facts and information left out or not reported.
The one thing that story did do is made that agent a marked man in some peoples eyes, right or wrong. Chances are his name will never be made public. I would also bet, based on this article, this case gets made to quietly disappear.
Like in every reported story there is part of the story, the wrong story, the internet story, and the true story. That article I rate right up there with part of the story, with a lot of facts and information left out or not reported.
The one thing that story did do is made that agent a marked man in some peoples eyes, right or wrong. Chances are his name will never be made public. I would also bet, based on this article, this case gets made to quietly disappear.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I understand that the MT guys are pissed and anyone who's applied for this tag is pissed but shaggy's right. Unless you were there with them you can't criticize the GW. It is easy to sit back and fucking speculate how you would have done the UC job and how you woulda followed the letter of the law. Hell, the guys in the white house do it every day. Do I need to mention how they handled the wolf problem???
UC doesn't have a script like TV or the movies. Things change every minute and even a min. ago. If he was in the back country and no way of communicating verbally or with signals there's no telling what his situation was. Seems to me these guys were fame and fortune hungry and wanted to thump their chest. A comment like "you miss that fucking thing again and we're gonna have a pow wow" would make you think twice. You know, about your kids, wife...life...
I also understand MT and the states out west don't put up with poachers or renegades but guys are doing it every year day in and day out. Right in front of you and no one is saying a thing.
Maybe we will maybe we won't know what really happened but doing that UC job couldn't have been a cake walk. The GW's life has changed forever and now I bet his life and families life is in danger. All because of guys who think they could have done a better job. Easy to say sitting home reading about it.
I understand that the MT guys are pissed and anyone who's applied for this tag is pissed but shaggy's right. Unless you were there with them you can't criticize the GW. It is easy to sit back and fucking speculate how you would have done the UC job and how you woulda followed the letter of the law. Hell, the guys in the white house do it every day. Do I need to mention how they handled the wolf problem???
UC doesn't have a script like TV or the movies. Things change every minute and even a min. ago. If he was in the back country and no way of communicating verbally or with signals there's no telling what his situation was. Seems to me these guys were fame and fortune hungry and wanted to thump their chest. A comment like "you miss that fucking thing again and we're gonna have a pow wow" would make you think twice. You know, about your kids, wife...life...
I also understand MT and the states out west don't put up with poachers or renegades but guys are doing it every year day in and day out. Right in front of you and no one is saying a thing.
Maybe we will maybe we won't know what really happened but doing that UC job couldn't have been a cake walk. The GW's life has changed forever and now I bet his life and families life is in danger. All because of guys who think they could have done a better job. Easy to say sitting home reading about it.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tip em over</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP." </div></div>
This is Montana. We don't put up with that bullshit period! These guy's weren't convicted of poaching . The Game Wordon filled those shoes. He killed the #1 Recorded BigHorn Ram in our State.
The Ram was killed to convict the others in this case.
It's NOT legal to kill Game animals here in the State of Montana in those methods used!
Do you work with the Montana Fish and Game Dept? </div></div>
While I hate to see the animal killed to get a conviction, I don't know the whole story, maybe he did the right thing, maybe he didn't....
"This is Montana....." you serious, that's your argument.
Do you think the illegal taking of game is "put up" with in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho.... or any other state? Is it a lesser case in any other state.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tip em over</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felony poachers arent "good ole boys" who just made a mistake. Often times, just like any other felon, they are willing to kill to protect their freedom, just like other shitbags.
Ever notice that GWs wear armor? Carry a gun? End up dead every year? How do you think that happens?
If they guy took a dive and missed a few times, I would be willing to bet that guide might have told him that there would be ramifications for another miss.
Kinda like working UC narc. You can use every "gotta see my PO tomorrow" or "gonna go pick up my kid later," but eventually if you avoid taking one for the team one too many times, people get wise to it and you get dead.
Now, if the UC game warden fucked up, it will come to light and his agency will take a giant shit on him. If he didnt have a choice in the matter, or felt threatened, then I dont fault him at all for it.
But, you internet tough talkers all know what took place on that mountain right? And youve all worked undercover, so you know the risks. But, since youre all so wiley, you can get out of any situation, right?
Always amazes me.
You dont go to the dentist and tell him how to fix a cavity.
You dont tell your accountant how to do your taxes.
You dont tell the lawyer how to write your will.
Why?
You didnt go to school for dentistry.
Youre not a CPA.
You didnt go to law school.
But, any idiot thinks they know the law and just how it should be applied and enforced and has no problem running their suck about it. If you can do it better, by all means, join up and show em how its done.
In the immortal words of Rodney Carrington, "I dont come to where you work and throw rocks atcha while youre bowling, so SHUT UP." </div></div>
This is Montana. We don't put up with that bullshit period! These guy's weren't convicted of poaching . The Game Wordon filled those shoes. He killed the #1 Recorded BigHorn Ram in our State.
The Ram was killed to convict the others in this case.
It's NOT legal to kill Game animals here in the State of Montana in those methods used!
Do you work with the Montana Fish and Game Dept? </div></div>
While I hate to see the animal killed to get a conviction, I don't know the whole story, maybe he did the right thing, maybe he didn't....
"This is Montana....." you serious, that's your argument.
Do you think the illegal taking of game is "put up" with in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho.... or any other state? Is it a lesser case in any other state.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
What Russ said +1
Oh that's right as a resident you can legally hunt 2 guys for no money... yeah yeah... the other 2 were just along to take pics and no money was ever exchanged. Bullshit...
I saw them day in and day out running the back country.
I bet I could go to any trailhead in Wyo or MT and find a renegade every week.
Hell I proposed that to some guys on the inside at game and fish. But there's no money in the budget. I told them of several I knew about.. again, we're really busy and we're tight on funding. We'll try to get to it.
What Russ said +1
Oh that's right as a resident you can legally hunt 2 guys for no money... yeah yeah... the other 2 were just along to take pics and no money was ever exchanged. Bullshit...
I saw them day in and day out running the back country.
I bet I could go to any trailhead in Wyo or MT and find a renegade every week.
Hell I proposed that to some guys on the inside at game and fish. But there's no money in the budget. I told them of several I knew about.. again, we're really busy and we're tight on funding. We'll try to get to it.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sledder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There was no reason to kill the ram.By the time the warden shot the ram they already had these guys on everything short of possession of an illegal animal.Fucker probably wanted to shoot a world record ram all along and had a partial excuse to do it under the law. </div></div>
And he got paid to do it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sledder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There was no reason to kill the ram.By the time the warden shot the ram they already had these guys on everything short of possession of an illegal animal.Fucker probably wanted to shoot a world record ram all along and had a partial excuse to do it under the law. </div></div>
And he got paid to do it.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I'm sure he's sitting at home sippin' a toddy laughing and saying Fuck me I'm awesome. I got paid to kill a record ram. Look at the at fucker on my wall...
You really think that's the case? That fucking ram is owned by the MT G&F. There's no claim to fame on that ram.
I'm sure he's sitting at home sippin' a toddy laughing and saying Fuck me I'm awesome. I got paid to kill a record ram. Look at the at fucker on my wall...
You really think that's the case? That fucking ram is owned by the MT G&F. There's no claim to fame on that ram.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
A good friend of mine wrote this below and I agree with his opinion.
"I will feel absolutely no pity for the Hunting Guide(s). They are mostly corrupt and are turning our wildlife and public land into a profit center for them while getting the rest of us true sportsmen blocked from hunting access.
What really sucks is that they killed the ram when the Game Warden could have let it go. I think the Game Warden badly errored in judgment, his career should be on the line. It's easy for me to say but he should have had the courage to stop the sting at the point he felt he was out of options and told the corrupt hunting guide that the gig was up. He could have arrested the guide and pressed these charges. Killing the ram added NOTHING to the case. Looks like the GW lacked training of what to do if..."
A good friend of mine wrote this below and I agree with his opinion.
"I will feel absolutely no pity for the Hunting Guide(s). They are mostly corrupt and are turning our wildlife and public land into a profit center for them while getting the rest of us true sportsmen blocked from hunting access.
What really sucks is that they killed the ram when the Game Warden could have let it go. I think the Game Warden badly errored in judgment, his career should be on the line. It's easy for me to say but he should have had the courage to stop the sting at the point he felt he was out of options and told the corrupt hunting guide that the gig was up. He could have arrested the guide and pressed these charges. Killing the ram added NOTHING to the case. Looks like the GW lacked training of what to do if..."
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
"but he should have had the courage to stop the sting at the point he felt he was out of options and told the corrupt hunting guide that the gig was up. He could have arrested the guide and pressed these charges."
...and thats where the story would have ended.... more than likely he would have not been found after saying that. The back country makes it aweful easy to make a person "go away"
All you guys that are armchair quarterbacking this don't have anymore info than I do. You have NO clue, absolutey no freaking idea of the circumstances involved and more than likely never will.
BUT, the internet tough guys that say he was wrong and the "This is Montana" crowd, as if there are huge differences in the poaching laws between the western states...... your fools to think he got his rocks off on all of this.
3 against one in the back country and you are going to tell me you would have "been the man" and told them they were all under arrest? Give me a brake.
"but he should have had the courage to stop the sting at the point he felt he was out of options and told the corrupt hunting guide that the gig was up. He could have arrested the guide and pressed these charges."
...and thats where the story would have ended.... more than likely he would have not been found after saying that. The back country makes it aweful easy to make a person "go away"
All you guys that are armchair quarterbacking this don't have anymore info than I do. You have NO clue, absolutey no freaking idea of the circumstances involved and more than likely never will.
BUT, the internet tough guys that say he was wrong and the "This is Montana" crowd, as if there are huge differences in the poaching laws between the western states...... your fools to think he got his rocks off on all of this.
3 against one in the back country and you are going to tell me you would have "been the man" and told them they were all under arrest? Give me a brake.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/big_horn_sheep_killing_a_betrayal_of_trust/C41/L41/
Read this opinion......
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/big_horn_sheep_killing_a_betrayal_of_trust/C41/L41/
Read this opinion......
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Good article and interesting perspective. General points I'd like to make?
OK so hundreds of thousands were spent? Umm where does he get hundreds of thousands?
Do we know just how many alleged wrong doings the 3 arrested were involved in prior? Could it be they have been operating these illegal activities for years? Totaling/robbing what cost to the sportsman of MT?
Do we have a day by day minute by minute account of how this went down. The report by the officer.
How far from communications or backup at any given time was he?
The exchange of money is a hinge.
Is this entrapment?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lewton specifically told J. G. he could not charge for helping him as Lewton was not an outfitter. He went on to say that he would be scouting and flying the area for another hunter, and could do the same for J. G. for $1,000. By my reading of the court documents, these are the only monies Lewton received prior to the shooting of the sheep.
</div></div>
He said he could not charge for helping him. Yet he did help him actually kill the animal? With means penned to be illegal.
Has he done this before? For how many and were monies exchanged?
I think we (those conversing about this in this thread) can only speculate until we all read the court documents. Even this article, well very thought out and adept, could be leaving out facts.
UC is a grey area tricky at best. It hardly ever ends without discrepancies, what ifs, and should have done this or done that.
Good article and interesting perspective. General points I'd like to make?
OK so hundreds of thousands were spent? Umm where does he get hundreds of thousands?
Do we know just how many alleged wrong doings the 3 arrested were involved in prior? Could it be they have been operating these illegal activities for years? Totaling/robbing what cost to the sportsman of MT?
Do we have a day by day minute by minute account of how this went down. The report by the officer.
How far from communications or backup at any given time was he?
The exchange of money is a hinge.
Is this entrapment?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lewton specifically told J. G. he could not charge for helping him as Lewton was not an outfitter. He went on to say that he would be scouting and flying the area for another hunter, and could do the same for J. G. for $1,000. By my reading of the court documents, these are the only monies Lewton received prior to the shooting of the sheep.
</div></div>
He said he could not charge for helping him. Yet he did help him actually kill the animal? With means penned to be illegal.
Has he done this before? For how many and were monies exchanged?
I think we (those conversing about this in this thread) can only speculate until we all read the court documents. Even this article, well very thought out and adept, could be leaving out facts.
UC is a grey area tricky at best. It hardly ever ends without discrepancies, what ifs, and should have done this or done that.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Just so i understand some of your guys way of thinking.......... the next time a undercover cop has to kill a rival gang member to "maintain his cover" thats cool right???????
Just so i understand some of your guys way of thinking.......... the next time a undercover cop has to kill a rival gang member to "maintain his cover" thats cool right???????
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
How many DEA, FBI etc. do you think participated in illegal acts to maintain cover?
Like I said. Anyone of us can generate an armchair quarterbacks heroic effort and save the day and do the right thing.
Without reading the officers log or report NO ONE can say if he's right or wrong.
How many DEA, FBI etc. do you think participated in illegal acts to maintain cover?
Like I said. Anyone of us can generate an armchair quarterbacks heroic effort and save the day and do the right thing.
Without reading the officers log or report NO ONE can say if he's right or wrong.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
What if the history of this guy is such that he has "helped" take several Rams. Using illegal methods and illegal access.
Those several rams could have been hunted by legal hunters.
What if the history of this guy is such that he has "helped" take several Rams. Using illegal methods and illegal access.
Those several rams could have been hunted by legal hunters.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7.62willdo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just so i understand some of your guys way of thinking.......... the next time a undercover cop has to kill a rival gang member to "maintain his cover" thats cool right??????? </div></div>
Dipshit of the Day award winner.
Human life. An animals life. NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BALL PARK.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7.62willdo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just so i understand some of your guys way of thinking.......... the next time a undercover cop has to kill a rival gang member to "maintain his cover" thats cool right??????? </div></div>
Dipshit of the Day award winner.
Human life. An animals life. NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BALL PARK.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
You guys would shit if you knew how often things like this play out around the country...from bald eagles to ridley sea turtles. Judges want more than just intent on wildlife violations; thats just the way it is. Every once in a while a case will get a little air just to rekindle the psychy of all the dirtbag guides and outfitters.
I've very likely had my hands on that very ram, and as hard as it is to do, you can't get anthropomorphic.
You guys would shit if you knew how often things like this play out around the country...from bald eagles to ridley sea turtles. Judges want more than just intent on wildlife violations; thats just the way it is. Every once in a while a case will get a little air just to rekindle the psychy of all the dirtbag guides and outfitters.
I've very likely had my hands on that very ram, and as hard as it is to do, you can't get anthropomorphic.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
Oh and PS: like most state agencies, MTFWP's wildlife division is not a "our tax dollars at work" organization. They do not receive general fund appropriations. They are completely user-funded through license revenue and excise tax collected from the sale of sporting equipment (PR Act of 1937).
Oh and PS: like most state agencies, MTFWP's wildlife division is not a "our tax dollars at work" organization. They do not receive general fund appropriations. They are completely user-funded through license revenue and excise tax collected from the sale of sporting equipment (PR Act of 1937).
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
What people don't understand is that if they went to the trouble of putting an undercover operation together for these guides, they already knew in advance they had a significant documented history of multiple violations. How many animals did these guides take from real sportsmen over the years. It's not like they just send guys out to random guide services to see what they can dig up. Friend of mine is a federal prosecutor did game crimes for years and they are rampant. When guys pay them $10K a weekend to hunt pheasants you really think they are only going to let them shoot 2 a day, they shoot them by the truck load, don't pick them up or dump them in a ditch. Same is true for any game animal when someone flashes enough cash. There are more dishonest guides than honest ones these days.
Guides doing these crimes are not stupid either, it's a big money operation now, they pay ranchers/landowners thousands a year to lock up the good private land, essentially ruining hunting for the average sportsman in states without significant public land. They are not going to do these illegal activities for just anyone that walks in with some cash, you have to gain their trust, many times book multiple hunts with them before they will incriminate themselves. Especially now that these type of sting operations are more and more common and the guides know they are used as tactics.
If hunters had any idea how many guides were breaking the laws and taking way way more game than they should be and doing stuff under the table they'd be a lot more upset with the guides than the Game/fish
Did the officer have to shoot the ram, who knows, only the officer and the guys with him could answer that. You can bet that more than one game and fish officer has been killed after confronting those doing illegal gaming operations in the field.
The real sad part is the pathetic fines guides get when they get into court. They get a slap on the wrist, maybe loose their rifle, get a few thousand dollars fine, no jail time, and maybe loose their guide license for a few years. It's a joke, they just hire a couple new guides, become just the "business owner", change the name and go back to business as usual. Most of the time you can get caught poaching a trophy animal and it costs you less in fines than it would if you booked a trophy hunt in the first place.
What people don't understand is that if they went to the trouble of putting an undercover operation together for these guides, they already knew in advance they had a significant documented history of multiple violations. How many animals did these guides take from real sportsmen over the years. It's not like they just send guys out to random guide services to see what they can dig up. Friend of mine is a federal prosecutor did game crimes for years and they are rampant. When guys pay them $10K a weekend to hunt pheasants you really think they are only going to let them shoot 2 a day, they shoot them by the truck load, don't pick them up or dump them in a ditch. Same is true for any game animal when someone flashes enough cash. There are more dishonest guides than honest ones these days.
Guides doing these crimes are not stupid either, it's a big money operation now, they pay ranchers/landowners thousands a year to lock up the good private land, essentially ruining hunting for the average sportsman in states without significant public land. They are not going to do these illegal activities for just anyone that walks in with some cash, you have to gain their trust, many times book multiple hunts with them before they will incriminate themselves. Especially now that these type of sting operations are more and more common and the guides know they are used as tactics.
If hunters had any idea how many guides were breaking the laws and taking way way more game than they should be and doing stuff under the table they'd be a lot more upset with the guides than the Game/fish
Did the officer have to shoot the ram, who knows, only the officer and the guys with him could answer that. You can bet that more than one game and fish officer has been killed after confronting those doing illegal gaming operations in the field.
The real sad part is the pathetic fines guides get when they get into court. They get a slap on the wrist, maybe loose their rifle, get a few thousand dollars fine, no jail time, and maybe loose their guide license for a few years. It's a joke, they just hire a couple new guides, become just the "business owner", change the name and go back to business as usual. Most of the time you can get caught poaching a trophy animal and it costs you less in fines than it would if you booked a trophy hunt in the first place.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
OK Folkes, IMHO and based on eduction and experiences a perspective of events from the article some things to consider.
LEOs are not in the business of setting up a grand scale UC Operation to catch the random doer of misdeeds. UC Ops are after rings of poachers and in this case it appears so. The Poacher/Guide had a long suspected career of illegal activities. The poacher/guide had done this many times in the past and new what he was doing was breaking laws. The UC officer did miss twice and placed himself in jeopardy TWICE. While it is indeed a shame that the ram was record size that shows also that the LEO was indeed in jeopardy as they were intent on killing this particular ram. The money value to the poachers was very great.
In so very many cases of poaching rings tens to hundreds of record class animals are destroyed out of the greed like this. The unfortunate loss of the record ram is sacrificing one for the population as a whole. The loss of this fine ram is counter balanced by the potential loss of others and that the ram may possibly not see another season...regrettable but to put these men out of business and hopefully behind bars with a rock solid felony by one majestic ram seems worth it. IMHO I might also point out that getting the press out and showing the lengths that LEOs must go through to bust these poachers and the penalties they get may discourage others from doing these illegal activities but it also raises the danger level to UC officers that have no backup. I know many officers and they take great risks to protect our wildlife. JMHO
OK Folkes, IMHO and based on eduction and experiences a perspective of events from the article some things to consider.
LEOs are not in the business of setting up a grand scale UC Operation to catch the random doer of misdeeds. UC Ops are after rings of poachers and in this case it appears so. The Poacher/Guide had a long suspected career of illegal activities. The poacher/guide had done this many times in the past and new what he was doing was breaking laws. The UC officer did miss twice and placed himself in jeopardy TWICE. While it is indeed a shame that the ram was record size that shows also that the LEO was indeed in jeopardy as they were intent on killing this particular ram. The money value to the poachers was very great.
In so very many cases of poaching rings tens to hundreds of record class animals are destroyed out of the greed like this. The unfortunate loss of the record ram is sacrificing one for the population as a whole. The loss of this fine ram is counter balanced by the potential loss of others and that the ram may possibly not see another season...regrettable but to put these men out of business and hopefully behind bars with a rock solid felony by one majestic ram seems worth it. IMHO I might also point out that getting the press out and showing the lengths that LEOs must go through to bust these poachers and the penalties they get may discourage others from doing these illegal activities but it also raises the danger level to UC officers that have no backup. I know many officers and they take great risks to protect our wildlife. JMHO
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag?
how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag?
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I'm not a "big time hunter"....I do a little bit here & there in my home State, so I'm not familiar with the "Montana" attitude.
But it seems from reading these news articles about this incident, that people are mad at the undercover agent because HE shot the animal....and THEY or a member of the PUBLIC didn't get a chance to shoot it first.
So it's really an issue about money that COULD have been generated to the State....and that regular hunters missed out on the chance to shoot this same animal. Let me see if I get this right......this animal could've/would've been hunted and killed anyway on another day in another place & it would've been ok.....But during a "sting operation" it's not ok.??
I know that it may not look good to the average person on how the UC Officer completed this task, but he had a job to do & he completed it without bringing bodily harm to himself or any other human. He shot an animal which would've been legal to hunt & kill in different circumstances, & in doing so, he has caught & hopefully ended the career of these guides from doing this many more times in the future. What's the problem?
And to those who aren't in Law Enforcement & think he should be charged because he also broke the law.....gimme a break. As an LEO acting under "color of law", you are allowed to break certain laws to complete your investigation. Where the courts won't allow you to do this, is when you hurt or inflict unjust harm on people, thus violating their Rights. But it's perfectly fine to break traffic laws, & such, during your investigation.
I'm not a "big time hunter"....I do a little bit here & there in my home State, so I'm not familiar with the "Montana" attitude.
But it seems from reading these news articles about this incident, that people are mad at the undercover agent because HE shot the animal....and THEY or a member of the PUBLIC didn't get a chance to shoot it first.
So it's really an issue about money that COULD have been generated to the State....and that regular hunters missed out on the chance to shoot this same animal. Let me see if I get this right......this animal could've/would've been hunted and killed anyway on another day in another place & it would've been ok.....But during a "sting operation" it's not ok.??
I know that it may not look good to the average person on how the UC Officer completed this task, but he had a job to do & he completed it without bringing bodily harm to himself or any other human. He shot an animal which would've been legal to hunt & kill in different circumstances, & in doing so, he has caught & hopefully ended the career of these guides from doing this many more times in the future. What's the problem?
And to those who aren't in Law Enforcement & think he should be charged because he also broke the law.....gimme a break. As an LEO acting under "color of law", you are allowed to break certain laws to complete your investigation. Where the courts won't allow you to do this, is when you hurt or inflict unjust harm on people, thus violating their Rights. But it's perfectly fine to break traffic laws, & such, during your investigation.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
sik,
I see your point but what I think most of the pissed people are loosing sight of is...
Maybe this was necessary, inevitable, unavoidable... to save 15 ( maybe more )other Sheep. Yeah it was a Booner, but I'm confident MT can grow other Booners.
Self admitted the guy was responsible for many others that were killed.
sik,
I see your point but what I think most of the pissed people are loosing sight of is...
Maybe this was necessary, inevitable, unavoidable... to save 15 ( maybe more )other Sheep. Yeah it was a Booner, but I'm confident MT can grow other Booners.
Self admitted the guy was responsible for many others that were killed.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
With a WAR on two fronts, socialism at our doorster, the economy in the toilet, all I can ask is who gives a ratsass about a sheep? Seems like a HUGE waste of time, money and effort for nothing.
I mean, am I missing something here?
With a WAR on two fronts, socialism at our doorster, the economy in the toilet, all I can ask is who gives a ratsass about a sheep? Seems like a HUGE waste of time, money and effort for nothing.
I mean, am I missing something here?
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
IRON PROWLER... I am not intending to make an insult just making sure we are all on same page in case there is confusion on this.
This was a Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep not the Domestic wool sheep. The Bighorn sheep like this are a prized tag to draw ( some areas and states have a 0.5 to 2% success of draw rate ) and each year some tags such as this are allotted to special interest organizations that put the $$$ back into conservation of the species. These tags have gone in auction for $10,000 to as much as $310,000 (the Montana State and all time record that I can find so far) cover the years that brings easily over $1,000,000 in proceeds for bighorn sheep conservation all over the western states. Rocky Mountain Sheep Society and other conservation groups doing these auctions have funded research, habitat improvements, education, habitat purchases and transplants to increase the populations over many years with the proceeds of these auctions just to get a tag. So you can see that ram had great value to hunters but also to the population his genetics benefited.
Monies at this level you can see would attract scumbag law breakers from everywhere. So efforts by LEOs such as this become more and more essential. IMO.
IRON PROWLER... I am not intending to make an insult just making sure we are all on same page in case there is confusion on this.
This was a Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep not the Domestic wool sheep. The Bighorn sheep like this are a prized tag to draw ( some areas and states have a 0.5 to 2% success of draw rate ) and each year some tags such as this are allotted to special interest organizations that put the $$$ back into conservation of the species. These tags have gone in auction for $10,000 to as much as $310,000 (the Montana State and all time record that I can find so far) cover the years that brings easily over $1,000,000 in proceeds for bighorn sheep conservation all over the western states. Rocky Mountain Sheep Society and other conservation groups doing these auctions have funded research, habitat improvements, education, habitat purchases and transplants to increase the populations over many years with the proceeds of these auctions just to get a tag. So you can see that ram had great value to hunters but also to the population his genetics benefited.
Monies at this level you can see would attract scumbag law breakers from everywhere. So efforts by LEOs such as this become more and more essential. IMO.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montana!!
iron prowler,
I've learned better than to try to explain why some people have an appreciation for wild places and things. You either get it, or you don't.
"In the end, our society will be defined not only by what we create, but by what we refuse to destroy." - John C. Sawhill
iron prowler,
I've learned better than to try to explain why some people have an appreciation for wild places and things. You either get it, or you don't.
"In the end, our society will be defined not only by what we create, but by what we refuse to destroy." - John C. Sawhill
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
</div></div>
So when an undercover drug Officer is conducting a drug buy/sell.....he's not allowed to possess Cocaine or sell/buy it from or to the scumbag drug dealer, because it's illegal....? So how would you do this?
Or when a traffic Officer clocks you speeding he can't break the speed limit in order to catch up to you & pull you over.....? So how would you do this?
Or when an undercover female Officer is acting as a prostitute.....she can't enter into a money agreement for sex with a "John", because it's illegal.....? So how would you do this?
See a pattern here...?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
</div></div>
So when an undercover drug Officer is conducting a drug buy/sell.....he's not allowed to possess Cocaine or sell/buy it from or to the scumbag drug dealer, because it's illegal....? So how would you do this?
Or when a traffic Officer clocks you speeding he can't break the speed limit in order to catch up to you & pull you over.....? So how would you do this?
Or when an undercover female Officer is acting as a prostitute.....she can't enter into a money agreement for sex with a "John", because it's illegal.....? So how would you do this?
See a pattern here...?
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I look at this sheep killing as two wrongs that don't make a right.
At the sheep's expense they'll end up fining these guys and put them on probation. That's BS.
Same thing as a undercover cop who wants to catch dealers actually snorting or smoking or shooting the drugs.
Same thing as a undercover female Officer acting as a prostitute and "doing" her johns.
When the cop lined up and took the shot, and missed, that should have been enough for the judge.
He didn't have to kill it.
In my book the cop is as guilty as the party he was trying to catch. He should go to jail.
I look at this sheep killing as two wrongs that don't make a right.
At the sheep's expense they'll end up fining these guys and put them on probation. That's BS.
Same thing as a undercover cop who wants to catch dealers actually snorting or smoking or shooting the drugs.
Same thing as a undercover female Officer acting as a prostitute and "doing" her johns.
When the cop lined up and took the shot, and missed, that should have been enough for the judge.
He didn't have to kill it.
In my book the cop is as guilty as the party he was trying to catch. He should go to jail.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at this sheep killing as two wrongs that don't make a right.
At the sheep's expense they'll end up fineing these guys and put them on probation. That's BS.
Same thing as a undercover cop who wants to catch dealers actually snorting or smoking or shooting the drugs.
Same thing as a undercover female Officer acting as a prostitute and "doing" her johns.
When the cop lined up and took the shot, and missed, that should have been enough for the judge.
He didn't have to kill it.
In my book the cop is as guilty as the party he was trying to catch. He should go to jail.
</div></div>
This is ridiculous. First off, the killing of this particular animal <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">legal</span>....just under different circumstances. There have been hundreds of UC drug Officer's who do & have taken drugs to maintain their "cover" because the situation is way to dangerous for him/her not to do so.
This Officer could've been in the same scenario....out in the middle of "BFE" with 3 guys, who very well could've been armed, without immediate backup.....so he maintains his cover and shoots an animal. No big deal. People are mad simply because this was a "trophy" animal that someone else missed the opportunity to shoot.
Trying to effect an arrest of multiple subjects by yourself, when they are possibly armed.....is never as easy as they show it on TV.....any mistake in blowing his true identity, could've resulted in his death. Sorry, but in my world, the animal gets shot....not me.
I do agree that any female Officer that actually has sex with a "John" has crossed the line.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at this sheep killing as two wrongs that don't make a right.
At the sheep's expense they'll end up fineing these guys and put them on probation. That's BS.
Same thing as a undercover cop who wants to catch dealers actually snorting or smoking or shooting the drugs.
Same thing as a undercover female Officer acting as a prostitute and "doing" her johns.
When the cop lined up and took the shot, and missed, that should have been enough for the judge.
He didn't have to kill it.
In my book the cop is as guilty as the party he was trying to catch. He should go to jail.
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This is ridiculous. First off, the killing of this particular animal <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">legal</span>....just under different circumstances. There have been hundreds of UC drug Officer's who do & have taken drugs to maintain their "cover" because the situation is way to dangerous for him/her not to do so.
This Officer could've been in the same scenario....out in the middle of "BFE" with 3 guys, who very well could've been armed, without immediate backup.....so he maintains his cover and shoots an animal. No big deal. People are mad simply because this was a "trophy" animal that someone else missed the opportunity to shoot.
Trying to effect an arrest of multiple subjects by yourself, when they are possibly armed.....is never as easy as they show it on TV.....any mistake in blowing his true identity, could've resulted in his death. Sorry, but in my world, the animal gets shot....not me.
I do agree that any female Officer that actually has sex with a "John" has crossed the line.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
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So when an undercover drug Officer is conducting a drug buy/sell.....he's not allowed to possess Cocaine or sell/buy it from or to the scumbag drug dealer, because it's illegal....? So how would you do this?
Or when a traffic Officer clocks you speeding he can't break the speed limit in order to catch up to you & pull you over.....? So how would you do this?
Or when an undercover female Officer is acting as a prostitute.....she can't enter into a money agreement for sex with a "John", because it's illegal.....? So how would you do this?
See a pattern here...?
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ok, but if we loose one nice ram for every poaching bust, we'll run out of sheep before we run out of scumbags. you have to understand, there is only the one current state record ram, while scumbag poachers are a dime a dozen.
this case is small potatoes compared to some shit we see here. there are much worse poaching rings working the state right now. every so often guys get caught that have photo albums with 50-75 or more head of animals that were poached. and convictions seldom get more than loss of hunting priviledge and fines.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LuvMuscle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how was it illegal for the agent if he had a tag? </div></div>
he trespassed to access that ram, and he knew it.
shit, guys, he did the very thing he is supposed to stop. i call that hyprocrisy.
i stand behind our game wardens in their efforts to uphold the law, not to break the law.
</div></div>
So when an undercover drug Officer is conducting a drug buy/sell.....he's not allowed to possess Cocaine or sell/buy it from or to the scumbag drug dealer, because it's illegal....? So how would you do this?
Or when a traffic Officer clocks you speeding he can't break the speed limit in order to catch up to you & pull you over.....? So how would you do this?
Or when an undercover female Officer is acting as a prostitute.....she can't enter into a money agreement for sex with a "John", because it's illegal.....? So how would you do this?
See a pattern here...?
</div></div>
ok, but if we loose one nice ram for every poaching bust, we'll run out of sheep before we run out of scumbags. you have to understand, there is only the one current state record ram, while scumbag poachers are a dime a dozen.
this case is small potatoes compared to some shit we see here. there are much worse poaching rings working the state right now. every so often guys get caught that have photo albums with 50-75 or more head of animals that were poached. and convictions seldom get more than loss of hunting priviledge and fines.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I applaud that undercover officer for what he did...... That's one less "Outfitter" out there doing things illegally while there are too many of us attempting to do things legally!!! They cause too much scrutiny on the rest of us as it is.....
I applaud that undercover officer for what he did...... That's one less "Outfitter" out there doing things illegally while there are too many of us attempting to do things legally!!! They cause too much scrutiny on the rest of us as it is.....
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weda'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure he's sitting at home sippin' a toddy laughing and saying Fuck me I'm awesome. I got paid to kill a record ram. Look at the at fucker on my wall...
You really think that's the case? That fucking ram is owned by the MT G&F. There's no claim to fame on that ram. </div></div>
I don't think the ram was "owned" by anyone but the land owner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weda'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure he's sitting at home sippin' a toddy laughing and saying Fuck me I'm awesome. I got paid to kill a record ram. Look at the at fucker on my wall...
You really think that's the case? That fucking ram is owned by the MT G&F. There's no claim to fame on that ram. </div></div>
I don't think the ram was "owned" by anyone but the land owner.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
I don't think it was taken on Private Property was it? And The state owns the wildlife in MT as far as I am aware.
I don't think it was taken on Private Property was it? And The state owns the wildlife in MT as far as I am aware.
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
And to add on the bust in the field he had handcuffs stashed where?? Hard to explain one set of cuffs in your pack let alone 3or four pairs. And just issuing citations and leaving would not fly well either.
Press hard five copies!!!
Ownership of wildlife whether on private or public land is the property of the state for the people. Constitutional law based on Geer vs. Connecticut (1896)
And to add on the bust in the field he had handcuffs stashed where?? Hard to explain one set of cuffs in your pack let alone 3or four pairs. And just issuing citations and leaving would not fly well either.
Press hard five copies!!!
Ownership of wildlife whether on private or public land is the property of the state for the people. Constitutional law based on Geer vs. Connecticut (1896)
Re: WTF!!!!!!!! Our Tax Dollars at work in Montan
This argument is not going to be solved here, I bet you that. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion about the incident, but as already stated we don't know all of the fact. I have been involved in, and continue to conduct investigations and all I can tell you is that sometimes things aren't so black and white. As far as the actual shooting of the animal, I can only assume (as I dont live or work in Montana) that the actual harvest of the animal was probably needed for the felony "possession" aspect of these charges. I love hunting and hate to see things like this...but there is the fact that the officer's safety is paramount over a sheep, elk or even a fucking Unicorn. Now, I don't know what the immediate threat to his safety was...but he was in remote country with three suspects. Criminal behavior is usually not something that is dabbled in...it is an ongiong enterprise for these people. I don't know the criminal history of these guys but you can bet your ass that the officer did and maybe there was enough of that history to make him have the understanding that his safety was something he needed to keep at teh forefront. I understand that it is great to have your own opinions and beliefs about the situation. However, I hope that you realize that doing this work is not easy and is very dangerous. An illegal hunting guide can kill you just as fast as a big weight Meth dealer. Unless you have done UC work, please reserve the judgement of the man/woman who is out there protecting you and your family and has to do so in split second decisions that you get to pick apart in front of your plasma and double decaf no whip mocha. Just a thought! Big as sheep tho, uh!
This argument is not going to be solved here, I bet you that. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion about the incident, but as already stated we don't know all of the fact. I have been involved in, and continue to conduct investigations and all I can tell you is that sometimes things aren't so black and white. As far as the actual shooting of the animal, I can only assume (as I dont live or work in Montana) that the actual harvest of the animal was probably needed for the felony "possession" aspect of these charges. I love hunting and hate to see things like this...but there is the fact that the officer's safety is paramount over a sheep, elk or even a fucking Unicorn. Now, I don't know what the immediate threat to his safety was...but he was in remote country with three suspects. Criminal behavior is usually not something that is dabbled in...it is an ongiong enterprise for these people. I don't know the criminal history of these guys but you can bet your ass that the officer did and maybe there was enough of that history to make him have the understanding that his safety was something he needed to keep at teh forefront. I understand that it is great to have your own opinions and beliefs about the situation. However, I hope that you realize that doing this work is not easy and is very dangerous. An illegal hunting guide can kill you just as fast as a big weight Meth dealer. Unless you have done UC work, please reserve the judgement of the man/woman who is out there protecting you and your family and has to do so in split second decisions that you get to pick apart in front of your plasma and double decaf no whip mocha. Just a thought! Big as sheep tho, uh!
