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Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I was a scout sniper in 3/8 for two years. Graduated from class 2-10 out of stone bay. I just finished my contract so no, I'm not a sniper anymore. There are differences between military issue sniper rifles and civilian rifles. However if a civilian got the same parts and built a rifle to the same specs as a military issue sniper rifle then there would be no physical difference. If a vietnam era M16 held 1 MOA, it would be a precision rifle. Lots of rifles could be used with great effectiveness as issued rifles to snipers as long as they can hold the accuracy requirement. The reason the government doesn't let us use any rifle (even if accurate) is liability. They don't want somebody dying and then an accusation being made that it was because there was no regulation on his issued weapons, meaning the government is indirectly responsible. All current weapon systems are thoroughly evaluated before being fielded for active service.
Let's agree to disagree since we're both right. There is no authority on what defines sniper rifles. Different organizations define them differently as will people. My definition is mine. You can't say it's wrong because nothing supports you considering what I said is reasonable. It's my definition. Just like I can't say your definition is wrong, and I don't. My definition is what was taught to me and I agree with it and use it. It makes sense, it works, so it's good. This thread was for "<span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> definition of a sniper rifle." As long as it's generally reasonable, it can't be ruled incorrect. Again I'm defining a sniper rifle from a capability standpoint. It does not pertain to ownership or actual purpose. <span style="color: #FF0000">A sniper's rifle would give the person owning the rifle the title of sniper.</span> A person owning a sniper rifle says that person is in possession of a rifle capable of delivering precision fire according to the owner's definition.
And no, the M82A1 and the M107 are not sniper rifles as defined by scout snipers (2-3 moa average on both systems) even though snipers use them. They were designed for anti materiel use hence the name grouping special application scoped rifle (SASR) as opposed to special application sniper rifle. [/quote]







I disagree with the highlighted part as I think you will see others will too. OR you have just made the day for a lot of people.
What is your definition of a sniper? Anyone who can make a longrange precision shot and owns a precision rifle? That is ridiculous.
To say some guy can throw a rifle together with the same specs as a military rifle means he is now a "sniper" Is one of the most retarded things i have read on here...............next to butt hurt, its a toss up.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

Someone may have already said this but, Using the term "sniper rifle" one thing thing comes to my mind first "sniper" when you think about it all you need is the "sniper" after you have him a "sniper rifle" would be what ever rifle decides to pick up and use..... regardless of the target ie: paper,steel,wild game or other gunmen..
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I could see on a battle field someone packing a precision rifle being called a sniper. Sure. Who would wait to find out.
But a civilian shooting paper and steel targets with no military training.
Marksman. Precision shooter. Tactical type shooter. Maybe. But I really dont see how owning a precision gun and shooting targets makes one a sniper.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I think your'e misunderstanding me a-hull. I am saying there is a difference between the term "sniper rifle" and "sniper's rifle." I am saying a sniper rifle has the accuracy capability I mentioned. Anyone could own one. But it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle if a sniper doesn't currently own and employ it. A sniper's rifle is the rifle of a bonafide sniper. Believe me, I know there is more to being a sniper than shooting. What I'm saying is anybody can possess a sniper rifle but only snipers can possess a sniper's rifle since if it was anyone else it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle. That's about as barney style as I can make it.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

mission_fail said:
I think your'e misunderstanding me a-hull. I am saying there is a difference between the term "sniper rifle" and "sniper's rifle." I am saying a sniper rifle has the accuracy capability I mentioned. Anyone could own one. But it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle if a sniper doesn't currently own and employ it. A sniper's rifle is the rifle of a bonafide sniper. Believe me, I know there is more to being a sniper than shooting. What I'm saying is anybody can possess a sniper rifle but only snipers can possess a sniper's rifle since if it was anyone else it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle. That's about as barney style as I can make it.
I think then it is just a generic term to describe a precision rifle.
I still think it is not correct. The main reason is a sniper rifle is used on people and military targets, or is that incorrect.
To try and sell a rifle as a bonafied sniper rifle, meaning one has been used for its intended purpose of shooting people or military targets by a person trained to be a sniper at some point in its life it would have had to be used in that manner, otherwise it is not a sniper rifle or a former sniper's rifle.
I think there is also a difference between the military world, law enforcement world, and the civilan world. I would imagine in the military and law enforce world things are looked at as weapons or threats (sniper rifles). In the civilian world where a person builds a rifle and from day one until its last shot fired is at paper, steel, or rocks on a hill side, that rifle is a lot of things but not a sniper rifle.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your'e misunderstanding me a-hull. I am saying there is a difference between the term "sniper rifle" and "sniper's rifle." I am saying a sniper rifle has the accuracy capability I mentioned. Anyone could own one. But it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle if a sniper doesn't currently own and employ it. A sniper's rifle is the rifle of a bonafide sniper. Believe me, I know there is more to being a sniper than shooting. What I'm saying is anybody can possess a sniper rifle but only snipers can possess a sniper's rifle since if it was anyone else it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle. That's about as barney style as I can make it.</div></div>


I think then it is just a generic term to describe a precision rifle.
I still think it is not correct. The main reason is a sniper rifle is used on people and military targets, or is that incorrect.
To try and sell a rifle as a bonafied sniper rifle, meaning one has been used for its intended purpose of shooting people or military targets by a person trained to be a sniper at some point in its life it would have had to be used in that manner, otherwise it is not a sniper rifle or a former sniper's rifle.
I think there is also a difference between the military world, law enforcement world, and the civilan world. I would imagine in the military and law enforce world things are looked at as weapons or threats (sniper rifles). In the civilian world where a person builds a rifle and from day one until its last shot fired is at paper, steel, or rocks on a hill side, that rifle is a lot of things but not a sniper rifle.
</div></div>

I get what MF is saying. Anyone can own a sniper rifle but, that doesn't make them a sniper. A sniper uses a rifle on people and that makes that rifle a sniper's rifle.

What's funny is that if you think about it, the people that wrote the definitions that you quote as gospel, have probably never even fired a rifle.

BTW, you sure can butcher a quote.
smile.gif
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I think the definition of a Sniper Rifle is not something one can do as a standalone concept. The Rifle makes the Sniper, and the Sniper makes the Rifle. The two are inseparable. Without the one, the other does not exist.

Next...
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the definition of a Sniper Rifle is not something one can do as a standalone concept. The Rifle makes the Sniper, and the Sniper makes the Rifle. The two are inseparable. Without the one, the other does not exist.

Next... </div></div>

I fail to see how a rifle can change from one thing to another according to who shoots it. It is what it is. The rifle does not define the shooter.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

i think that trying to be a Sniper would be a pretty futile exercise without the rifle...
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

Another way to look at it, after re-reading and thinking about this topic:

I own a 1917 Enfield, Its a WWI battle rifle, I'm not a WWI Vet but its still a WWI Battle Rifle.

I own a Garand, Its a WWII Battle Rifle, I'm not a WWII vet but its still a WWII Battle Rifle

I own a Mosin, it's a Russian Infantry Rifle, I'm not a Russian Infantryman but its still a Russian Infantry Rifle.

Next on my list is a M1C/D. Its a WWII/Korean Sniper Rifle, I'm not a WWII/Korean sniper but its still a Sniper Rifle.

Why does one have to be a sniper. If he buys a sniper rifle, just because he isnt a sniper, dosn't mean its not a sniper rifle.

Look at the CMP GSM Vintage Sniper Matches. The rules say it has to be a vintage military sniper rifle. I doubt many, if any of the competitiors are vintage snipers, but they are still sniper rifles.

So if the OP buys an "X" sniper rifle, and isnt a sniper, why is his rifle no longer a sniper rifle?

Another example. In 1978 I went to the USAMU Sniper School, we used the M21, but the school was set up for both military and LE. I went to school from the ARNG, but at the same time I was in LE and wanted to come up with a program for my department as well as start a sniper program for the AK NG.

The AMU came up with a guide for sollecting a LE sniper rifle, at that time they reccommed something along the lines of a 223 Bolt gun with a fixed 6X scope. Ok I did that, I got a Remington BDL in 223, put on a Redfield Widefield, 6X scope, it worked quite well until I retired in '94. My sole reasoning was to get a rifle and set up a LE sniper rifle to be used as such, and was used as such.

Now we are both retired and I only snipe prarie dogs, but until this morning I didn't think it was still a sniper rifle, but now I think it is. Just as my service revolver (Model 28) which was given to me when I retired, is still a LE service revolver even though I'm not longer a cop.

Silly as I thought this topic was, it's changed my mind on whats an EX sniper rifle.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think that trying to be a Sniper would be a pretty futile exercise without the rifle... </div></div>

Perhaps but, having a sniper rifle does not make one a sniper.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

In this we agree, but this topic is not about defining Snipers, but about defining Sniper Rifles.

However, in reading Kraig's post, I also see that my own views are flawed. Kraig is dead right.

There is another way to look at it.

One may produce a rifle with the attributes of accuracy, durability, and suitibility to Sniper employment; and offer it for sale as a Sniper Rifle.

Does this make it a Sniper Rifle, simply because it meets the basic requirements and we call it so? Some might be convinced it is so.

For reasons of my own, I would not be among them.

Greg
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

i'll stick with the fact that there is no physical difference between the design and function of a "real" sniper rifle and any other rifle built with the same parts to the same spec.

what it really boils down to is, who really gives a fuck what someone on the internet calls their rifle in the title of their for sale ad?
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if the OP buys an "X" sniper rifle, and isnt a sniper, why is his rifle no longer a sniper rifle? </div></div>

A sniper is a person who shoots people from a place of concealment according to Webster. IMO there are only 2 types (1) Government trained snipers wether LE or Military. (2) Enemy trained snipers or criminal snipers.

If you were trained by the government as a sniper wether LE or Military you were issued a Sniper Rifle. You can get your hands on Vintage Sniper Rifles that were made and used in that capacity. You can have a clone built exactly to spec and have a Sniper Rifle Clone.

Enemy Sniper Rifles like your Viet one are Sniper Rifles. Or if someone climbed a clock tower and used a rifle to snipe people it would go down in history as a Sniper Rifle. The only civillians that have Sniper Rifles are ones that are Vintage, Clones, or are criminals and have used them on people.

Taking a generic off the shelf rifle and putting a scope on it IMO cannot rightly be reffered to as a Sniper Rifle but often is.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

That's not a bad point, but suppose the rifle was yours, neither you (nor it) had never had anything to do with the Sniper profession, yet some opinionated public servant insisted it was an evil sniper rifle and wanted to sieze and destroy it? Let's take it one little step further, and say they decided it was one because it was identical in all aspects to the one somebody else called a 'sniper rifle' and tried to sell somebody online.

That's when names become more meaningful. That's when folks who bandy about terms like 'sniper rifle' with cavalier disregard for actual employment by a professional in a sanctioned activity gets my attention and tweak my antennae regarding a whole lot of the crap that goes on quite regularly in Foggy Bottom.

There's a lot of meaning in a name, both explicit and implied.

Greg
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

If that were to happen, i bet you these guys will refer to the same definitions i have been quoting "as gospel" from the dicitonary.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I agree Greg. One day a public servant saying my long range hunting or competition rifle is a 'Sniper Rifle' will then try to make a law saying im not allowed to have it. Kind of like they tried to do with any rifles labeled "Tactical". Ignorance of the general public can fan the flames of paranoia. Then anybody with a painted rifle and nice optic is a criminal in possesion of a dangerous 'Sniper Rifle'.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's not a bad point, but suppose the rifle was yours, neither you (nor it) had never had anything to do with the Sniper profession, yet some opinionated public servant insisted it was an evil sniper rifle and wanted to sieze and destroy it? Let's take it one little step further, and say they decided it was one because it was identical in all aspects to the one somebody else called a 'sniper rifle' and tried to sell somebody online.

That's when names become more meaningful. That's when folks who bandy about terms like 'sniper rifle' with cavalier disregard for actual employment by a professional in a sanctioned activity gets my attention and tweak my antennae regarding a whole lot of the crap that goes on quite regularly in Foggy Bottom.

There's a lot of meaning in a name, both explicit and implied.

Greg </div></div>

you have a decent point greg but you know what? those people are trying to take our guns anyways. a word some guy put in the title of his for sale ad is not going to change that. it is these people's mission in life to take away our second amendment rights. i am not going to tippy-toe around in my own life worrying about what they may think. i'm certainly not going to loose sleep because someone put a catch phrase in the title of his for sale ad.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your'e misunderstanding me a-hull. I am saying there is a difference between the term "sniper rifle" and "sniper's rifle." I am saying a sniper rifle has the accuracy capability I mentioned. Anyone could own one. But it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle if a sniper doesn't currently own and employ it. A sniper's rifle is the rifle of a bonafide sniper. Believe me, I know there is more to being a sniper than shooting. What I'm saying is anybody can possess a sniper rifle but only snipers can possess a sniper's rifle since if it was anyone else it wouldn't be a sniper's rifle. That's about as barney style as I can make it.</div></div>


I think then it is just a generic term to describe a precision rifle.
I still think it is not correct. The main reason is a sniper rifle is used on people and military targets, or is that incorrect.
To try and sell a rifle as a bonafied sniper rifle, meaning one has been used for its intended purpose of shooting people or military targets by a person trained to be a sniper at some point in its life it would have had to be used in that manner, otherwise it is not a sniper rifle or a former sniper's rifle.
I think there is also a difference between the military world, law enforcement world, and the civilan world. I would imagine in the military and law enforce world things are looked at as weapons or threats (sniper rifles). In the civilian world where a person builds a rifle and from day one until its last shot fired is at paper, steel, or rocks on a hill side, that rifle is a lot of things but not a sniper rifle.
</div></div>

I get what MF is saying. Anyone can own a sniper rifle but, that doesn't make them a sniper. A sniper uses a rifle on people and that makes that rifle a sniper's rifle.

What's funny is that if you think about it, the people that wrote the definitions that you quote as gospel, have probably never even fired a rifle.

BTW, you sure can butcher a quote.
smile.gif
</div></div>



I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

About the for sale add, I said it before I will say it again. It is petty I know. I wanted to vent. I did. Your still wrong.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I use a AI AW at work , is it a sniper rifle, yes.a guy off the street can buy that exact same rifle ,is it still a sniper rifle? I think so,is he a sniper,no.Is he a sniper if he shoots someone with it from a distance, I dont think so,more likely a good shot/marksman with serious problems.A sniper is more than shooting from a distance.shooting comprised of 1 week of my 8 week basic sniper course,thers is alot more skillset invoved than just shooting.I get where the op is coming from though.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think then it is just a generic term to describe a precision rifle.
I still think it is not correct. The main reason is a sniper rifle is used on people and military targets, or is that incorrect.
To try and sell a rifle as a bonafied sniper rifle, meaning one has been used for its intended purpose of shooting people or military targets by a person trained to be a sniper at some point in its life it would have had to be used in that manner, otherwise it is not a sniper rifle or a former sniper's rifle.
I think there is also a difference between the military world, law enforcement world, and the civilan world. I would imagine in the military and law enforce world things are looked at as weapons or threats (sniper rifles). In the civilian world where a person builds a rifle and from day one until its last shot fired is at paper, steel, or rocks on a hill side, that rifle is a lot of things but not a sniper rifle.
</div></div>

So you would say an M40A5 made at PWS in quantico is not a sniper rifle since it hasn't been issued to a sniper or used to fulfill its purpose yet?
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension before you label what I said (especially it being an opinion) as retarded seeing as you're not getting what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with it, but you should understand what I'm actually saying. You're fucking up enough of what I said to show that you probably gave my reply a hasty once over and then fired off your hasty response. I set forth my point and explained it. If you want clarification, re-read my other responses. I'm not spouting fact, I'm spouting opinion. If you like it fine, if you don't say so, respectfully citing your reason, and leave it at that. The only elaboration needed is if one of the parties doesn't understand another.
If you're going to start a topic asking for opinions, then expect someone's to be different from your own. If you're going to unprofessionally criticize differing opinions then don't start topics based on opinion.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

I am not saying anything other than purpose. Isnt there a difference between military useage and civilian usage?
Which is why i ask if it was correct or not. Since you have gone through sniper school i was asking you for fact. Maybe you need to work on comprehension.
One more time. In your opinion there is no difference. Got it.
Does the military define every rifle capable of one moa in the world both civilian and military as a sniper rifle, or are they refering to military applications? Feel free to state both fact and opinion. You did say what the instructors define as a sniper rifle as a fact didnt you? Or is that your opinion of what they said. Big difference if i am comprehending that correctly.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not saying anything other than purpose. Isnt there a difference between military useage and civilian usage? </div></div>

If you define a sniper rifle by it's intended purpose, you are completely right. There are differences in military usage versus civilian usage in the employment of accurate rifles but there are also similarities.

I also want to point out that out of all the definitions I have read of "sniper rifle" I haven't found anything concretely stating that a sniper rifle can only exist as one if it is used for a certain purpose or is owned by a certified sniper.

Furthermore I found this from the wikipedia article on "sniper rifle".
wikipedia-"A 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) average extreme spread for a 5-shot group (meaning the center-to-center distance between the two most distant bullet holes in a shot-group) translates into a 69% probability that the bullet's point of impact will be in a target circle with a diameter of 23.3 cm at 800 m (about 8 inches at 800 yards). This average extreme spread for a 5-shot group and the accompanying hit probability are considered sufficient for effectively hitting a human shape at 800 m distance.
In 1982 a U.S. Army draft requirement for a Sniper Weapon System was: "The System will: (6) Have an accuracy of no more than 0.75 MOA (0.2 mrad) for a 5-shot group at 1,500 meters when fired from a supported, non-benchrest position".[6] Actual Sniper Weapon System (M24) adopted in 1988 has stated maximum effective range of 800 meters and a maximum allowed average mean radius (AMR) of 1.9 inches at 300 yards from a machine rest, what corresponds to a 0.6 MOA (0.5 mrad) extreme spread for a 5-shot group when using 7.62 x 51 mm M118 Special Ball cartridges.[7][8][9]


Precision Weapon Engagement Ranges & Dispersion according to the US Army.
A 2008 United States military market survey for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR) calls for 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) extreme vertical spread for all shots in a 5-round group fired at targets at 300, 600, 900, 1,200 and 1,500 meters.[10][11] In 2009 a United States Special Operations Command market survey calls for 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) extreme vertical spread for all shots in a 10-round group fired at targets at 300, 600, 900, 1,200 and 1,500 meters.[12][13] The 2009 Precession Sniper Rifle requirements state that the PSR when fired without suppressor shall provide a confidence factor of 80% that the weapon and ammunition combination is capable of holding 1 MOA extreme vertical spread. This shall be calculated from 150 ten (10) round groups that were fired unsuppressed. No individual group shall exceed 1.5 MOA (0.5 mrad) extreme vertical spread. All accuracy will be taken at the 1,500 meter point.[14][15] In 2008 the US military adopted the M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System which has corresponding maximum allowed extreme spread of 1.8 MOA (0.5 mrad) for a 5-shot group on 300 feet, using M118LR ammunition or equivalent.[7][8][16] In 2010 maximum bullet dispersion requirement for M24 .300 Winchester Magnum corresponds[7][8] 1.4 MOA extreme spread for 5 shot group on 100 meters.[17]
Although <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">accuracy standards for police rifles do not widely exist, rifles are frequently seen with accuracy levels from 0.5-1.5 MOA (0.2-0.5 mrad)</span></span>.[18] For typical policing situations an extreme spread accuracy level no better than 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) is usually all that is required. This is because police typically employ their rifles at short ranges.[19] At 100 m or less, a rifle with a relatively low accuracy of only 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) should be able to repeatedly hit a 3 cm (1.2 inch) target. A 3 cm diameter target is smaller than the brain stem which is targeted by police snipers for its quick killing effect.[20]" (bold and underlined text added by me).

The entire article doesn't imply the rifle is made for any one specific purpose and does not require specific origin or owner ship to be labeled as a "sniper rifle." Sniper is being used as an adjective to describe a class of rifles that have the capability of fulfilling the roles that actual snipers would employ the rifle in. whether or not they are used for that role is irrelevant according to the article. Due to the laws of english a "sniper's rifle" would be a rifle used in an actual sniper role and owned by said sniper because it couldn't be used as anything but that.
You can define a sniper rifle by purpose or capability. Either way is acceptable. I understand both ways to define but follow only one. Because the term is not officially defined (any dictionary definition is so vague as to be open to wide interpretation) neither sniper rifle defined by purpose nor capability can be considered wrong.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly. </div></div>



sniperrifledefinition11.jpg
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sniper is being used as an adjective to describe a class of rifles that have the capability of fulfilling the roles that actual snipers would employ the rifle in. whether or not they are used for that role is irrelevant according to the article. </div></div>

sorry to cut out the rest of your post mission fail, but i wanted to agree specifically with this point you made here.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not saying anything other than purpose. Isnt there a difference between military useage and civilian usage?
Which is why i ask if it was correct or not. Since you have gone through sniper school i was asking you for fact. Maybe you need to work on comprehension.
One more time. In your opinion there is no difference. Got it.
Does the military define every rifle capable of one moa in the world both civilian and military as a sniper rifle, or are they refering to military applications? Feel free to state both fact and opinion. You did say what the instructors define as a sniper rifle as a fact didnt you? Or is that your opinion of what they said. Big difference if i am comprehending that correctly. </div></div>

I cited what the instructors said as fact. They did in fact say it. However it was based on the opinions of the scout sniper community. It is not fact outside the scout sniper community even though other organizations might have the same opinion. Organizations that utilize sniper class weapons define them as needed. FBI HRT might require 3/8 moa accuracy and certain scope and a fiberglass stock. The Israeli sniper community might require completely different requirements but it wold be fact in that locale. Al-Quad-ea terrorist cells might say as long as it goes bang it can be a sniper rifle. That would be fact in they're locale. They said it and it's true to them, fact. It doesn't make it fact worldwide. Meaning you can have your own interpretation and anyone else can have their's because there is no solid, factual answer. Define the term as you need to.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly. </div></div>




sniperrifledefinition11.jpg
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I just wanted to post this because I found it pretty funny.
"sniper rifle

noun
an extremely powerful rifle developed for the military; capable of destroying light armored vehicles and aircraft more than a mile away"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sniper+rifle
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not saying anything other than purpose. Isnt there a difference between military useage and civilian usage?
Which is why i ask if it was correct or not. Since you have gone through sniper school i was asking you for fact. Maybe you need to work on comprehension.
One more time. In your opinion there is no difference. Got it.
Does the military define every rifle capable of one moa in the world both civilian and military as a sniper rifle, or are they refering to military applications? Feel free to state both fact and opinion. You did say what the instructors define as a sniper rifle as a fact didnt you? Or is that your opinion of what they said. Big difference if i am comprehending that correctly. </div></div>

I cited what the instructors said as fact. They did in fact say it. However it was based on the opinions of the scout sniper community. It is not fact outside the scout sniper community even though other organizations might have the same opinion. Organizations that utilize sniper class weapons define them as needed. FBI HRT might require 3/8 moa accuracy and certain scope and a fiberglass stock. The Israeli sniper community might require completely different requirements but it wold be fact in that locale. Al-Quad-ea terrorist cells might say as long as it goes bang it can be a sniper rifle. That would be fact in they're locale. They said it and it's true to them, fact. It doesn't make it fact worldwide. Meaning you can have your own interpretation and anyone else can have their's because there is no solid, factual answer. Define the term as you need to. </div></div>


Ok we are getting closer. You said in those organizations and communities. What do those communties all in fact have in common.

And the retarded comment was directed at the person owning snipers rifle would posses the title sniper. Meaning if a civilian were able to buy lets say hathcocks original rifle a true sniper rifle, that would give the person the title sniper. I doubt anyone would argue that that rifle is not a sniper rifle.
In my opinion in that way a person could own a sniper rifle and not be a sniper.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

mission_fail. I agree with you on the term "Sniper's Rifle". I think the problem is some people that refer to their Sniper Rifle imply there is an association to a "Sniper's Rifle". It's a peeve because it's misleading.

When i take a Varmint rifle for hunting coyotes etc. to the range and the guy shooting next to me says 'nice Sniper Rifle' i can't help but laugh a little to myself.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

a-hull, anyone can own a sniper rifle, only a sniper could own a sniper's rifle. If carlos hathcock transferred ownership of a rifle to a non-sniper then it would no longer be a sniper<span style="font-weight: bold">'s</span> rifle. It might still be a sniper rifle to some and it might not be to others. If the rifle was a Marlin lever action 30-30, I would say it was never a sniper rifle ever and <span style="font-weight: bold">was</span> a sniper's rifle for a length of time (the period hatchcock owned it). If the rifle was a Winchester M70 that held at least 1moa, I would say it was always a sniper rifle and still is a sniper rifle but it is no longer a sniper<span style="font-weight: bold">'s</span> rifle. Examples are based on my definition.

mulehunter, I understand this and agree that people can regard "sniper rifle" and "sniper's rifle" as the same term since "sniper rifle" is an incorrect term in english and was derived from the "sniper's rifle" term that implied ownership.
And heck, under my definition, I might consider your varmint rifle a sniper rifle as well. There are some sniper rifles that make great varmint rifles. It brings up a point that one rifle can fill many roles.

I would like to say I'm arguing an ambiguous proposition which is probably responsible for any confusion. It can be difficult to understand that anyone can be right based on their circumstances and environment and that the same person correct in one instance can then be wrong maintaining the same statement he made because his circumstances/environment have changed between then and now.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not saying anything other than purpose. Isnt there a difference between military useage and civilian usage? </div></div>

If you define a sniper rifle by it's intended purpose, you are completely right. There are differences in military usage versus civilian usage in the employment of accurate rifles but there are also similarities.

I also want to point out that out of all the definitions I have read of "sniper rifle" I haven't found anything concretely stating that a sniper rifle can only exist as one if it is used for a certain purpose or is owned by a certified sniper.

Furthermore I found this from the wikipedia article on "sniper rifle".
wikipedia-"A 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) average extreme spread for a 5-shot group (meaning the center-to-center distance between the two most distant bullet holes in a shot-group) translates into a 69% probability that the bullet's point of impact will be in a target circle with a diameter of 23.3 cm at 800 m (about 8 inches at 800 yards). This average extreme spread for a 5-shot group and the accompanying hit probability are considered sufficient for effectively hitting a human shape at 800 m distance.
In 1982 a U.S. Army draft requirement for a Sniper Weapon System was: "The System will: (6) Have an accuracy of no more than 0.75 MOA (0.2 mrad) for a 5-shot group at 1,500 meters when fired from a supported, non-benchrest position".[6] Actual Sniper Weapon System (M24) adopted in 1988 has stated maximum effective range of 800 meters and a maximum allowed average mean radius (AMR) of 1.9 inches at 300 yards from a machine rest, what corresponds to a 0.6 MOA (0.5 mrad) extreme spread for a 5-shot group when using 7.62 x 51 mm M118 Special Ball cartridges.[7][8][9]


Precision Weapon Engagement Ranges & Dispersion according to the US Army.
A 2008 United States military market survey for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR) calls for 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) extreme vertical spread for all shots in a 5-round group fired at targets at 300, 600, 900, 1,200 and 1,500 meters.[10][11] In 2009 a United States Special Operations Command market survey calls for 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) extreme vertical spread for all shots in a 10-round group fired at targets at 300, 600, 900, 1,200 and 1,500 meters.[12][13] The 2009 Precession Sniper Rifle requirements state that the PSR when fired without suppressor shall provide a confidence factor of 80% that the weapon and ammunition combination is capable of holding 1 MOA extreme vertical spread. This shall be calculated from 150 ten (10) round groups that were fired unsuppressed. No individual group shall exceed 1.5 MOA (0.5 mrad) extreme vertical spread. All accuracy will be taken at the 1,500 meter point.[14][15] In 2008 the US military adopted the M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System which has corresponding maximum allowed extreme spread of 1.8 MOA (0.5 mrad) for a 5-shot group on 300 feet, using M118LR ammunition or equivalent.[7][8][16] In 2010 maximum bullet dispersion requirement for M24 .300 Winchester Magnum corresponds[7][8] 1.4 MOA extreme spread for 5 shot group on 100 meters.[17]
Although <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">accuracy standards for police rifles do not widely exist, rifles are frequently seen with accuracy levels from 0.5-1.5 MOA (0.2-0.5 mrad)</span></span>.[18] For typical policing situations an extreme spread accuracy level no better than 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) is usually all that is required. This is because police typically employ their rifles at short ranges.[19] At 100 m or less, a rifle with a relatively low accuracy of only 1 MOA (0.3 mrad) should be able to repeatedly hit a 3 cm (1.2 inch) target. A 3 cm diameter target is smaller than the brain stem which is targeted by police snipers for its quick killing effect.[20]" (bold and underlined text added by me).

The entire article doesn't imply the rifle is made for any one specific purpose and does not require specific origin or owner ship to be labeled as a "sniper rifle." Sniper is being used as an adjective to describe a class of rifles that have the capability of fulfilling the roles that actual snipers would employ the rifle in. whether or not they are used for that role is irrelevant according to the article. Due to the laws of english a "sniper's rifle" would be a rifle used in an actual sniper role and owned by said sniper because it couldn't be used as anything but that.
You can define a sniper rifle by purpose or capability. Either way is acceptable. I understand both ways to define but follow only one. Because the term is not officially defined (any dictionary definition is so vague as to be open to wide interpretation) neither sniper rifle defined by purpose nor capability can be considered wrong. </div></div>


This was all really good thanks. Its intended purpose and use is the whole point. Before there was a written standard for sniping and sniper rifles there were guys sniping people using sniper tactics. The rifles they used are sniper rifles are they not? The point is that a true sniper rifle is built tested trained on to shoot people or military targets. A guy who builds a rifle similar to shoot paper has no more a sniper rifle than a guy who paints a car black and white puts lights on it has a police car. It can be similar right down to same and engine and suspension. It is still a replica. A person can even buy a car that used to a police car. If he puts lights and a siren back on it is it a police car? A person can buy brand new rifles that were developed for the military for their snipers. Is it still a sniper rifle? The latter is closer. But if a civilian rolls around in a former police car the car is not the same . A civilian with a spec built rifle is not the same.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

It might not be a police car in official capacity but you're still going to get a citation for impersonating a police officer if you get pulled over.
Are you saying my opinion of what constitutes a sniper rifle is wrong and that the rules I have stated for defining the term are wrong?
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It might not be a police car in official capacity but you're still going to get a citation for impersonating a police officer if you get pulled over.
Are you saying my opinion of what constitutes a sniper rifle is wrong and that the rules I have stated for defining the term are wrong? </div></div>

Nope. I think that is so far the best definition so far.
In the same way a person could get there hands on a former police car but would get arrested if the impersonated a police officer, a person can get their hands on a rifle that may have been actually used by a sniper or get a rifle that may be exactly like ones used by a sniper. What would happen if they as a civilian went around sniping with it? In the definitions you posted they are for the purpose of shooting people. If a law enforcement or military person uses them they are traing or applying what they learned against people. If a civilian uses it there are cosequences from the law. So how the rifle is used defines it. It has little to do with how it is made. It has everything to do with what it is for and for who is intended to use it and or who has used it. This is only my opinion.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

And thanks for adding fact as well as your opinion. It is easy to go and blow hot air (you guys know who you are) . Atleast you presented something that could be debated.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly. </div></div>

No thanks. It will be more fun to let you find them and make more silly threads.


Is is still a chainsaw if it isn't being used by a lumberjack?
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mission_fail</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't been this sick of the word "sniper" since I was a PIG. </div></div>

Welcome to Sniper's Hide.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly. </div></div>

No thanks. It will be more fun to let you find them and make more silly threads.


Is is still a chainsaw if it isn't being used by a lumberjack? </div></div>





You really are funny. Spineless but funny.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

technically, a sniper is someone that shoots at exposed people from a concealed point of vantage

you dont have to be trained to do that and you dont need a specific type of gun to do it. That being said, a sniper would be more effective at sniping with a good weapon and sniper training

Everyone has their pet peeves. Referring to a rifle as a "sniper" rifle instead of a precision rifle is not that big of a deal to me. I know what they are meaning but i wouldnt take stock in those labels "sniper" or "precision" without actually seeing what the rifle is..could be a Daisy BB gun for all i know.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was thinking about your dictionary and definition comments.
Why dont you look up and post all of the other words they have wrongly defined and post them here. That way we can all be confident they are wrong on sniper and sniper rifles.
Try and post something that gives support to your opinion. Maybe they have never used a chainsaw but i bet the defined it properly. </div></div>

No thanks. It will be more fun to let you find them and make more silly threads.


Is is still a chainsaw if it isn't being used by a lumberjack? </div></div>





You really are funny. Spineless but funny. </div></div>

You're just butthurt cause I won't sell you my stock.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ha. That was a good one. I am being serious. That was funny!!!!
Good job. </div></div>

I'm glad you appreciate my contributions to this thread.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

What would Maj. Jim Land say?

Probably that if it goes bang consistently and the bullet goes where it is aimed consistently and if it is deployed with a highly motivated individual tasked to do that type of job consistently... It is a sniper rifle.

The rest is just friggin beating off or beating a horse.
 
Re: Your Definition of a Sniper Rifle

OK; I get it now. I'm on the outside looking in here. Please feel free to disregard anything I've said.

Greg
 
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