Nah... I just used Jihad al Qalam to vanquish your fakeness and bullshit.

shlouf said:

Thanks. Was thinking of starting with RL15 and tac and maybe tinkering with 4831. Have plenty of varget and h4350 if it doesn’t pan

Anyone have some leftover 145 lrx or 150 ABLRs they tried and aren’t using? Can’t bring myself to pay that much for test boxes when I have a pile of 150 eldx already

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145LRX and varget has been a very accurate combo for me. They just need more jump that the ELD

Did ZCO fix the illumination (and did they whack you or was the price fair) is what we need to know..?

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I'm really wanting to know this. What a company is legally bound to do vs what they will do actually says a lot about them to me.

Vortex gen 3 scopes cost significantly less to manufacture. In fact, Vortex can afford to replaced them a few times and still break even.

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This is likely a bit more due to the cost of manufacture in Japan vs Europe. Compare the prices of grand pianos from Yamaha and Shigeru Kawai to Hamburg Steinway, Fazioli, and Petrof, and you'll see similar cost differences. Same with Seiko watch movements and ETA movements from Europe.

I still think the ZCO is likely better designed and made, but the ease of replacement is likely more due to geographical costs. I bet ZCO could do the same if they made their scopes out of Japan too, and the quality wouldn't be wildly different.

I find it interesting that a company can invest so much time in R&D and still have the gas block contacting the handguard. Like WTF guys no one just looked in there and said damn thats a little close...I have a feeling mine might have the same issue but haven't pulled it apart yet. Overall I kinda regret selling my JP upper to get this one.

Are you guys having issues with standard. 750 Adjustable Gas Blocks? Or with .875?

More illiterate stroke-jobs who don't know what "Jihad" means.

Get scared though... everyone should be pissing their pants right now...

J_D said:

You can always go Vudoo and wait indefinitely.........

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Found one last week. On its way to my FFL in CA .

CK1.0 said:

Fair.

Vortex is so good with their customer service and warranty stuff, that with everyone else it can almost seem like we're getting less for our money (sometimes, even when spending more).

That said, Vortex probably sells, IDK, maybe ~200,000? more scopes than companies the size of operations like ZCO or Tangent Theta.

The "alpha glass" Co's are a niche of a niche, cream of the crop fancy rifile shit for guys already deep in the rabbit hole lol, but they're ants compared to a boot-size company like Vortex who sells like 10,000 shitty red dots + 1000 Diamondback/Strike Eagle tier scopes + 20 Razors for every scope one of these smaller fancy-pants outfits move. So CS shit should be great, since they can afford it (and it appears they can judging by the free hats and stickers and shit I've received when dealing with them lol).

Economy of scale, I guess..?

I'm not trying to be an apologist for ZCO because I have/run one either, but I can wrap my head around why a smaller company wouldn't front you a shipping label if the issue is known to be outside the warranty, is all.

Leupold CS jerked me around and made me get a little loud to get a pre-paid shipping label out of them on a fresh out of the plastic scope... so clearly company-mindset and how companies choose to act matters as well.

Did ZCO fix the illumination (and did they whack you or was the price fair) is what we need to know..?

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I agree with everything you say in your post, and for the same reasons.

I'm not a Vortex fanboy, nor am I bashing ZCO. All I wanted to do is point out the written warranty differences and my experience with each brand. I've owned or still own at least a dozen Vortex scopes... there are three gen-3 Razors in my safe and I just bought a Strike Eagle 3-18x44 to stick on an AR - in no small part because of all the discounts to be had on Vortex optics, but also because they just get the job done for a very competitive price and... warranty.

To answer your question re illumination: I didn't send the scope in. I actually called about doing so not because of illumination but because my rifle fell off my cart about two feet onto a gravel drive after 2nd stage at a match. I missed a number of targets I should have hit afterward, so I wondered if I had damaged it (negligence!).

I just didn't get a good feeling during and after that call, so I took no action. The illumination kinda sorta works; it's just not bright enough to use on shaded targets in full sun and batteries die pdq. And I discovered that I had used my .223 calculator profile during the match, which is pretty darn close to the 6BR profile under 600-700 yards . The scope's tracking was and is fine.

It may well be that ZCO would have taken care of illumination gratis had I sent it in.

DBD is right about the thinner optic of the gen-3 Razor (compared to ZCO 527) being a disadvantage in some circumstances. For that exact reason, I swapped the ZCO from my 6BR to my Vudoo .22, and the Vudoo's Razor went to the 6BR. Works better.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

ZCO is a European company (made there atleast) and as such, there are restrictions on what they can do in writing. What they "Claim" and what they actually do aren't the same thing.

I have known a ton of people (myself includes) who have warrantied Vortex, ZCO and TT scopes. Every time it has been similar. Easy process, quick turnaround.

Vortex gen 3 scopes cost significantly less to manufacture. In fact, Vortex can afford to replaced them a few times and still break even. Think about that for a minute. This is direct from one of their most well known sponsored shooters.

ZCO is a much smaller company, with a smaller product line and what I assume is, much lower margins. Its also a significantly better product overall.

I have never had to pay for shipping to ZCO and honestly, if I got to pay $30-50 to ship a $4000 optic to get repaired, I and anyone else who has one can afford it. It doesn't move the needle. Unless bitching about non material differences is the goal.

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I don’t think he said the ZCO warranty was bad, just not equally as painless as the Vortex.

carbonbased said:

I dunno about that man (but it should work fine for @hafejd30 in the summer). Perhaps they used them early in the war, but check this out. I wrote about it and also posted a link to the YT vid.


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Sounds like using any optic over there is risky and requires an ARD. Shooting a civi laser around would also seem to be like hoisting a big “kill me” flag over your head.

I’m no military guy, but

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Excellent video. Times change. Technology changes but goal is the same

400 left

Schw15 said:

I've been really thinking about upgrading my razor gen 3 but not sure if it's worth the squeeze. Richard from CST pointed me in the direction of the zco527. This is a lot of money to me to drop on a scope so I figured I would ask the hide there opinions and people who have both or have the higher end of scopes. I've been around ATACR and looked threw a zco 5 years ago for like 1 min so I have no experience.

I shoot elr style matches that's it. I like the razor gen 3 but this is the only rifle I own and so I figured I mine as well have the best I can can since I'm limited to 1.

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What distances are you shooting? Are you competitive now? Are you wanting to win more often? And can I ask what you shot before the G3 Razor?

Has anyone tried these on an ARC CDG action yet?

I will take this per our PMs.

All have been 108gr ELD-M thus far. I'll reload for it eventually.

Knights Manufacturing Company (Vero Beach) 1993 SR25 Match Rifle. All Black with no white lettering Military Match model with the 24” OberMeyer Match Barrel. Super Accurate.

JR1200W3 said:

It would shoot a few good groups and then it wouldn't. Here's the first 4 groups through it. You can see how it is inconsistent. Which is why I said we need a 5x 5 because a person could cherry pick a good group or two. The test target was just shy of .9". I bought the rifle off someone who put 60 rds through it. I wonder what they thought of it.

View attachment 8682138

In retrospect, after I pulled the barrel I saw this and I think the gas block was hitting the handguard. And if you look at the groups, it certainly makes sense.

View attachment 8682140View attachment 8682142

Here's a comparison of the Proof barrel vs the replacement barrel.

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WOA 20" after I found a gas block small enough
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Positional test with the replacement barrel
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There's not a lot of good looking testimonial groups on this thread. And the posts that are here often have some sort of caveat, "I'm not a good group shooter" or something like that. And the test targets the guns come with kinda confirm. I shot more than a couple of groups and just found that it was too inconsistent for me. 3/4" groups definitely get it done for this type of gun and it's intended purpose but for me, I wanted a longer barrel and more velocity anyway. Black Max is happy with the barrel I sold him. I'm happy to have a different barrel. I call that a good deal. He's running it in a different handguard and it seems to shoot better. I think if he throws up a 5 x 5 showing consistent performance, it would confirm my theory.

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I may have missed this but what did you end up picking for a gas block to clearance the handguard?

BurtG said:

Glad I asked !

So
Once again. What adj has block will fit well under the handguard. Got a 350 legend rainier match barrel to put in one of these uppers

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Does it need to be adjustable?

st1650 said:

RL15 is pretty close to varget. Should work fine with the 150 and 160s - probably 40-43gr for the 150s and 39-42 for the 160s. Start low and work up.

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Thanks. Was thinking of starting with RL15 and tac and maybe tinkering with 4831. Have plenty of varget and h4350 if it doesn’t pan

Anyone have some leftover 145 lrx or 150 ABLRs they tried and aren’t using? Can’t bring myself to pay that much for test boxes when I have a pile of 150 eldx already

GreenGO Juan said:

I like the direction this thread has taken.


Makes me think of the story of Walter Kaaden designing an expansion chamber exhaust pipe using knowledge gained from the V-1 buzz bombs pulse jet engine, a program he worked on. They East Germans were cleaning up the post war racing competition until Ernest Degner worked a deal with Suzuki to steal the design and crossed the Berlin wall with it from east into West Germany.

While the story is interesting one of the issues was at higher RPM, I believe above 10,500 the pulse reversion would begin to lean out the mixture, causing the cylinder and piston to get hot and it would lock up, causing the rear tire to lock up, most people couldn’t catch it and would end up crashing when the tire locked up at generally high triple digit speeds. They were fast as hell, but killed and injured a lot of people.

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Fortnine did a video on that (I suspect you watched it already).
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I'd always wanted a Marlin, but had never bought one. Several months ago, while being dazzled by a bunch of used Sako bolt rifles a semi-local gun shop has been importing from Finland, I found a pretty nice Winchester 9422 XTR - but the first thing I noticed was the muzzle threaded 1/2-20 - very common threads in Europe, but not so much here. I asked about that, and the shop helper told me that they'd imported it from Finland too. They also had a group of nice, older 39A rifles that they'd bought as a collection from an estate sale. I looked at several of them, but left that day with the 9422.
Couldn't stop thinking about all those Marlins though, so the next trip down - while I'd made up my mind to pick one of them out - I instead took my Hawkeye borescope along and used it to check the bore of a pre-A Win M52 with a factory heavy stainless bbl. The bore looked excellent, so even though someone had chopped several inches off the forearm & an inch or so off the buttstock (and replaced the factory checkered buttplate with a fugly homemade one), I walked out with that rifle. It shoots great with SK ammo, after I mounted a Unertl varmint 15x scope on it,
Finally, on the next trip to this gun shop, I gave into temptation, and picked a 39A out of the group of those rifles. It's in pretty nice shape, and once I can figure out whether the letter prefix of the S/N is a P or L or something else, I should be able to nail the date of manufacture down to between 1954-1957. It's got Ballard rifling instead of Micro-Groove, and after I'd wet-patched & brushed the bore, then used the Hawkeye on it, the bore condition looks excellent. The bolt isn't drilled & tapped for a scope base, so I may get a Marbles tang sight and see how it shoots.