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Sig Kilo 10k Gen 2 Review
- By catorres1
- Observation & Sighting Devices
- 2 Replies
Sig Kilo 10k Gen 2 Review Part II
Optics
Unlike a CRF that functions strictly as a range-finding device, we are talking about a binocular here, so, unlike the CRF, the bino RF has to excel in two areas, a one trick pony will not do. That is, you are not carrying just a ranging device, it is also your primary observation device, so optical performance is an important consideration.
While the 10k gen 2 is a class leading ranging device, the glass does not lead the pack, especially if you are looking at binos that absolutely prioritize glass quality like the the three alphas. That is not to say the optics are poor, but the optical performance is not in the same class as the ranging performance. That is, in fact, the major difference between the 10 gen 1 and the gen 2. While the ranging performance on the gen 1 is on par with the gen 2, the gen 1’s optical performance was well below it’s ranging class, in my opinion, falling below even what one would experience with the older 3k’s. This is due not to changes in sharpness or chromatic aberration, but due to issues with the coatings utilized in the first 10k’s. Whereas the 3k’s optics were very similar to what one would get out of, say, a Vortex Viper HD, the gen 1 10k’s had a very strong blue cast that decreased perceived contrast and brightness. In full sun, it wasn’t as noticeable unless you were comparing them to another set of binos side by side. But in lower and low light, it was very noticeable. I actually took the first set of 10k’s on a bighorn hunt and used them on several deer and elk hunts to see if it was something I’d get used to or whether it was a problem for me. For me, I never got used to it and, while I was able to find game, I felt it was an issue that really degraded the overall performance package.
It’s interesting to note that the 8k has the same cast, but as it is a CRF, whose only job is to range game that has already been located, it did not get in the way. But on the 10k, where it’s primary role is to find game in difficult lighting conditions, it was a problem. Sig recognized this as well, especially considering the feedback they got from the field, and went to work to solve the issue, which resulted in changes rolled out in the gen 2 version of the 10k. In my opinion, this is THE upgrade for the gen 2. So now, with the gen 2, the optics performance has returned to about what it was with the 3k, though I actually feel like the center is a little sharper on the 10k’s, but that could be sample variation or mis-memory. Like the 3k’s, one barrel is cooler, one barrel is warmer, so that as you look through both, you get a balanced tone. Center sharpness is really pretty good on my unit, but it falls off pretty quickly, with the edges being noticeably soft. In comparison, I noted the same through the Leica Pro’s I had on hand, but the size of the sweetspot in the center was larger on the Pros, and the drop-off on the edges was not as pronounced. Overall, using them over the last months, I found them to be pretty good, even down to the end of shooting light. I never found myself unable to see in those conditions, and though alpha glass will show you more, I didn’t feel like the 10k’s didn’t give me enough. Would I like alpha- level glass in these? For sure. But undoubtedly, that would push the 10k’s into a whole other price bracket. Compared to my FL’s, admittedly old optics but the best I have, the FL’s are definitely better n all categories, but not mind-blowingly so. I also compared them to the Leica Pro’s, which wasn’t as helpful as I’d have liked as the Pro’s are 8x’s…so the exit pupil alone gave it an advantage. On the other hand, the 10k’s had the magnification advantage, but yes, the Pro’s are optically superior. It’s not binos verses coke bottles, they are actually much closer than I expected to my eyes, but Leica prioritizes their glass and it shows. The 10k glass was good, but it is not in the alpha class, and as expected, though it is apparent in all light, the difference is most noticeable in low light. The thing is though, by the time the 10k’s fell apart for me, it was pretty well after shooting light. And that is a pretty good summary of how I feel about the 10k optics. They are solid and get the job done in an efficient fashion while lacking the next level refinement and performance of the alpha offerings. One final note, I spent many hours behind the 10k’s for many consecutive days while elk hunting this year and did not have any problems with eye-strain, something I am particularly sensitive to with my relatively poor eyesight and progressive lens glasses.
Even after long days of intensive glassing for elk, I never experienced eye fatigue and found the optics, if not extraordinary, to be pleasant to use and sharp enough to pick apart distant hillsides
So overall, on the optics, I would say we are back where we were with the 3k’s, maybe a bit better. This is a marked improvement over the gen 1 10k’s, giving us good optical performance that I found wholly sufficient and pleasant to look through, though lacking the kind of performance you would expect from alpha glass. That said, considering the incredible strength of the RF performance, this is one area I wish Sig could invest a little more into to more closely match the ranging performance. Of course, as I mentioned, the problem is that it would push the price significantly, as it’s not just as simple as switching out a couple of elements and maybe changing a few coatings. A lot of the design, including the prisms, would probably need to be addressed, which would likely push the price into the class of what alpha offerings cost, something I think Sig doesn’t want to do for this product. Adding another $750 to $1k to the price probably takes it beyond where many people can afford to go, and so shuts out much of the market segment they are trying to serve. My guess is that their product design parameters for their current bino RF’s target the goal of offering very respectable optics, though not top shelf, with world-beating ranging performance, allowing them to come in at a price more people can afford, and I feel like they’ve achieved that.
Ballistics
Like the 8k, the 10k relies on Applied Ballistics for their onboard solver, and indeed, there is no change to the gen 2 in regard to the earlier gen or the 8k. AB is generally considered one of the, if not the, gold standards for ballistic solvers and is used by an increasing number of manufacturers due to it’s excellent reputation. I won’t go into detail here as AB is incredibly dense and would easily fill up a review of it’s own. But the important things to note are that it’s fast and easy to set up your profiles on the app and then load them onto the 10k. After that, you don’t need to connect to the app for ballistics reasons unless you want to create new profiles or edit old ones. It’s very straightforward, range your target and you instantly get your solution, courtesy of the onboard AB elite solver. Of course, like the 8k and the original 10k, the gen 2 has onboard sensors for your atmospherics like temperature and pressure, as well as an inclinometer and an onboard compass. All told, together, the 10k can provide the onboard AB elite solver everything it needs in order to calculate a solution, no need for another device or connection to the app.
Wind
While the ballistics suite did not see any change, that is not the case with wind input. New to the gen 2 are three additional buttons that allow direct entry of wind inputs. Holding down the ‘W’ button brings you to a screen where you can use the other two buttons, ‘+’ and ‘-’, to set your wind speed. Hit the ‘W’ button again, and you are brought to a second screen that allows you to set a vector wind direction in the form of a clock.
Sig added three buttons to the 10k gen 2 to enable very fast and efficient wind value entry. While the optics are the biggest upgrade, the ability to input wind values directly is notable
It’s very reminiscent of what Vortex offers on their Fury AB, but lacking the ‘capture’ capability, where you just point into the wind and hit capture. Sig’s implementation is very easy to use and effective, despite it lacking the capture mode that Vortex offers, which I understand may be a patented feature, hence it’s exclusion on the gen 2. Overall, the addition of a really fast way to set wind is a nice upgrade from the gen 1 and makes is much faster and easier to get a full solution from AB, such that not only do you get a wind solution, but also enable the solver to be as accurate as possible for things like aerodynamic jump etc.
Display
Another excellent carryover from the 8k and the original 10k is the AMOLED display featured in all three devices, though there is one technical change that appears to have solved one problem but created another less critical one, which I’ll get to later. Otherwise, the display system remains unchanged from the gen 1, which is to say, excellent from an information and capability perspective. Again, have a look at my 8k review linked above for more information, but the summary is that the AMOLED display they are using allows them to do all sorts of things most other RF’s can’t do. The information that can be displayed far outstrips what has been possible in the past (like actually naming your profiles and being able to see it displayed when you are ranging so you are sure you have the correct profile selected). The digital compass reading has actually been really useful to me in trying to find points of interest etc. And the ability for the user to customize just what they want or don’t want to see is pretty great, considering pretty much all of it is right there when you range, no more waiting for the carousel to come around. Frankly, if you show everything, it’s pretty busy to my eye, but that’s why they leave it to each user to configure.
That display has a lot of really cool capabilities that are actually useful, but to me, the most useful is the ability to move the reticle on the screen to properly align with where the ranging sensor actually sits. Every RF I have tested has had some amount of misalignment, and they all have their own ‘within spec’ tolerance. So mapping sensor and reticle alignment is a must for any new RF you might buy, but then, you have to remember where the convergence is, and hopefully it’s in a place that is easy to reference. However, because Sig’s AMOLED screen is configurable, you can actually move the reticle on the screen to align with the positioning of the sensor. There is a limit as to how much the reticle can be moved, but if they cannot be aligned to lie completely within the reticle, I believe Sig considers that a warranty issue. So no matter what, you can ensure your reticle and sensor are well aligned. Mis-ranging is probably a lot more common than we realize, so In my opinion, this is probably the most useful and impactful benefit of the AMOLED display.
The only issue I noted with the display is that In changing the coatings on the gen 2, they appear to have made some changes to the brightness of the display as well. In most lighting, it’s not noticeable, but my gen 2 exhibits ‘ghosting’ of the embedded display screen as the light goes down. I start to notice it at about 15 or 20 minutes after sunset. At that point, it’s barely noticeable and isn’t an issue. But as it gets darker, it becomes more obtrusive. By the time it gets to the last minute or two of legal light, the screen is very visible, especially when looking at dark objects like trees. I could still see through it because the left eye has no screen, so your eyes blend the image and you can ‘see through’ the red box. But it is opaque enough at that light level to the point that if I was only using the right barrel, I would probably not be able to see to range accurately at long distances. Again, in all but the lowest light, you can’t see it, or it is hardly noticeable, but during those very last moments of the day, it became an issue for me. It is still useable, for sure, and it is a fair trade in order to solve the color caste problem, for sure, but it somewhat degrades ranging in very low-light conditions for me, though certainly does not preclude it.
Optics
Unlike a CRF that functions strictly as a range-finding device, we are talking about a binocular here, so, unlike the CRF, the bino RF has to excel in two areas, a one trick pony will not do. That is, you are not carrying just a ranging device, it is also your primary observation device, so optical performance is an important consideration.
While the 10k gen 2 is a class leading ranging device, the glass does not lead the pack, especially if you are looking at binos that absolutely prioritize glass quality like the the three alphas. That is not to say the optics are poor, but the optical performance is not in the same class as the ranging performance. That is, in fact, the major difference between the 10 gen 1 and the gen 2. While the ranging performance on the gen 1 is on par with the gen 2, the gen 1’s optical performance was well below it’s ranging class, in my opinion, falling below even what one would experience with the older 3k’s. This is due not to changes in sharpness or chromatic aberration, but due to issues with the coatings utilized in the first 10k’s. Whereas the 3k’s optics were very similar to what one would get out of, say, a Vortex Viper HD, the gen 1 10k’s had a very strong blue cast that decreased perceived contrast and brightness. In full sun, it wasn’t as noticeable unless you were comparing them to another set of binos side by side. But in lower and low light, it was very noticeable. I actually took the first set of 10k’s on a bighorn hunt and used them on several deer and elk hunts to see if it was something I’d get used to or whether it was a problem for me. For me, I never got used to it and, while I was able to find game, I felt it was an issue that really degraded the overall performance package.
It’s interesting to note that the 8k has the same cast, but as it is a CRF, whose only job is to range game that has already been located, it did not get in the way. But on the 10k, where it’s primary role is to find game in difficult lighting conditions, it was a problem. Sig recognized this as well, especially considering the feedback they got from the field, and went to work to solve the issue, which resulted in changes rolled out in the gen 2 version of the 10k. In my opinion, this is THE upgrade for the gen 2. So now, with the gen 2, the optics performance has returned to about what it was with the 3k, though I actually feel like the center is a little sharper on the 10k’s, but that could be sample variation or mis-memory. Like the 3k’s, one barrel is cooler, one barrel is warmer, so that as you look through both, you get a balanced tone. Center sharpness is really pretty good on my unit, but it falls off pretty quickly, with the edges being noticeably soft. In comparison, I noted the same through the Leica Pro’s I had on hand, but the size of the sweetspot in the center was larger on the Pros, and the drop-off on the edges was not as pronounced. Overall, using them over the last months, I found them to be pretty good, even down to the end of shooting light. I never found myself unable to see in those conditions, and though alpha glass will show you more, I didn’t feel like the 10k’s didn’t give me enough. Would I like alpha- level glass in these? For sure. But undoubtedly, that would push the 10k’s into a whole other price bracket. Compared to my FL’s, admittedly old optics but the best I have, the FL’s are definitely better n all categories, but not mind-blowingly so. I also compared them to the Leica Pro’s, which wasn’t as helpful as I’d have liked as the Pro’s are 8x’s…so the exit pupil alone gave it an advantage. On the other hand, the 10k’s had the magnification advantage, but yes, the Pro’s are optically superior. It’s not binos verses coke bottles, they are actually much closer than I expected to my eyes, but Leica prioritizes their glass and it shows. The 10k glass was good, but it is not in the alpha class, and as expected, though it is apparent in all light, the difference is most noticeable in low light. The thing is though, by the time the 10k’s fell apart for me, it was pretty well after shooting light. And that is a pretty good summary of how I feel about the 10k optics. They are solid and get the job done in an efficient fashion while lacking the next level refinement and performance of the alpha offerings. One final note, I spent many hours behind the 10k’s for many consecutive days while elk hunting this year and did not have any problems with eye-strain, something I am particularly sensitive to with my relatively poor eyesight and progressive lens glasses.
Even after long days of intensive glassing for elk, I never experienced eye fatigue and found the optics, if not extraordinary, to be pleasant to use and sharp enough to pick apart distant hillsides
So overall, on the optics, I would say we are back where we were with the 3k’s, maybe a bit better. This is a marked improvement over the gen 1 10k’s, giving us good optical performance that I found wholly sufficient and pleasant to look through, though lacking the kind of performance you would expect from alpha glass. That said, considering the incredible strength of the RF performance, this is one area I wish Sig could invest a little more into to more closely match the ranging performance. Of course, as I mentioned, the problem is that it would push the price significantly, as it’s not just as simple as switching out a couple of elements and maybe changing a few coatings. A lot of the design, including the prisms, would probably need to be addressed, which would likely push the price into the class of what alpha offerings cost, something I think Sig doesn’t want to do for this product. Adding another $750 to $1k to the price probably takes it beyond where many people can afford to go, and so shuts out much of the market segment they are trying to serve. My guess is that their product design parameters for their current bino RF’s target the goal of offering very respectable optics, though not top shelf, with world-beating ranging performance, allowing them to come in at a price more people can afford, and I feel like they’ve achieved that.
Ballistics
Like the 8k, the 10k relies on Applied Ballistics for their onboard solver, and indeed, there is no change to the gen 2 in regard to the earlier gen or the 8k. AB is generally considered one of the, if not the, gold standards for ballistic solvers and is used by an increasing number of manufacturers due to it’s excellent reputation. I won’t go into detail here as AB is incredibly dense and would easily fill up a review of it’s own. But the important things to note are that it’s fast and easy to set up your profiles on the app and then load them onto the 10k. After that, you don’t need to connect to the app for ballistics reasons unless you want to create new profiles or edit old ones. It’s very straightforward, range your target and you instantly get your solution, courtesy of the onboard AB elite solver. Of course, like the 8k and the original 10k, the gen 2 has onboard sensors for your atmospherics like temperature and pressure, as well as an inclinometer and an onboard compass. All told, together, the 10k can provide the onboard AB elite solver everything it needs in order to calculate a solution, no need for another device or connection to the app.
Wind
While the ballistics suite did not see any change, that is not the case with wind input. New to the gen 2 are three additional buttons that allow direct entry of wind inputs. Holding down the ‘W’ button brings you to a screen where you can use the other two buttons, ‘+’ and ‘-’, to set your wind speed. Hit the ‘W’ button again, and you are brought to a second screen that allows you to set a vector wind direction in the form of a clock.
Sig added three buttons to the 10k gen 2 to enable very fast and efficient wind value entry. While the optics are the biggest upgrade, the ability to input wind values directly is notable
It’s very reminiscent of what Vortex offers on their Fury AB, but lacking the ‘capture’ capability, where you just point into the wind and hit capture. Sig’s implementation is very easy to use and effective, despite it lacking the capture mode that Vortex offers, which I understand may be a patented feature, hence it’s exclusion on the gen 2. Overall, the addition of a really fast way to set wind is a nice upgrade from the gen 1 and makes is much faster and easier to get a full solution from AB, such that not only do you get a wind solution, but also enable the solver to be as accurate as possible for things like aerodynamic jump etc.
Display
Another excellent carryover from the 8k and the original 10k is the AMOLED display featured in all three devices, though there is one technical change that appears to have solved one problem but created another less critical one, which I’ll get to later. Otherwise, the display system remains unchanged from the gen 1, which is to say, excellent from an information and capability perspective. Again, have a look at my 8k review linked above for more information, but the summary is that the AMOLED display they are using allows them to do all sorts of things most other RF’s can’t do. The information that can be displayed far outstrips what has been possible in the past (like actually naming your profiles and being able to see it displayed when you are ranging so you are sure you have the correct profile selected). The digital compass reading has actually been really useful to me in trying to find points of interest etc. And the ability for the user to customize just what they want or don’t want to see is pretty great, considering pretty much all of it is right there when you range, no more waiting for the carousel to come around. Frankly, if you show everything, it’s pretty busy to my eye, but that’s why they leave it to each user to configure.
That display has a lot of really cool capabilities that are actually useful, but to me, the most useful is the ability to move the reticle on the screen to properly align with where the ranging sensor actually sits. Every RF I have tested has had some amount of misalignment, and they all have their own ‘within spec’ tolerance. So mapping sensor and reticle alignment is a must for any new RF you might buy, but then, you have to remember where the convergence is, and hopefully it’s in a place that is easy to reference. However, because Sig’s AMOLED screen is configurable, you can actually move the reticle on the screen to align with the positioning of the sensor. There is a limit as to how much the reticle can be moved, but if they cannot be aligned to lie completely within the reticle, I believe Sig considers that a warranty issue. So no matter what, you can ensure your reticle and sensor are well aligned. Mis-ranging is probably a lot more common than we realize, so In my opinion, this is probably the most useful and impactful benefit of the AMOLED display.
The only issue I noted with the display is that In changing the coatings on the gen 2, they appear to have made some changes to the brightness of the display as well. In most lighting, it’s not noticeable, but my gen 2 exhibits ‘ghosting’ of the embedded display screen as the light goes down. I start to notice it at about 15 or 20 minutes after sunset. At that point, it’s barely noticeable and isn’t an issue. But as it gets darker, it becomes more obtrusive. By the time it gets to the last minute or two of legal light, the screen is very visible, especially when looking at dark objects like trees. I could still see through it because the left eye has no screen, so your eyes blend the image and you can ‘see through’ the red box. But it is opaque enough at that light level to the point that if I was only using the right barrel, I would probably not be able to see to range accurately at long distances. Again, in all but the lowest light, you can’t see it, or it is hardly noticeable, but during those very last moments of the day, it became an issue for me. It is still useable, for sure, and it is a fair trade in order to solve the color caste problem, for sure, but it somewhat degrades ranging in very low-light conditions for me, though certainly does not preclude it.
Sig Kilo 10k Gen 2 Review
- By catorres1
- Observation & Sighting Devices
- 2 Replies
Introduction
A few years back, Sig got into the nascent bino-rangefinder market with their first release, the Sig 3k. The goal of that project was to put out a bino with mid-tier glass (sort of Viper HD level glass), coupled with a killer rangefinder for a price more people could afford. At that time, if I remember correctly, I am not sure there were any other options, other than Leica, Swarovski, and maybe some other high end choices, most of which were firmly out of most people’s financial grasp. The 3k was solid. The optics were as expected and the ranging performance was the best I had personally used. A couple years later and Sig had the followup coming to market, the Kilo 10k. Boasting the new super amoled display that was also utilized in the 8k, it promised another level of ranging performance. In this, it did not disappoint. The ranging was fantastic, and the information access and configurability that the new display provided were excellent. You can read more in-depth information about that display in my 8k review posted HERE. However, an additional aspect it shared with the 8k was the color cast that came with the optics. In the 8k, while not optimal, it was not a performance issue, as the 8k is not a search and observation device, but strictly a ranging device and the cast did not get in the way. But in a binocular, something which did double duty as the primary tool for finding game in low light, it was a problem. Unfortunately, it was not a simple fix, but it was one Sig realized they had to undertake to solve. Which really was a shame, considering the 10k gen 1’s are otherwise really a fantastic bino RF system. Fast forward to this last year, and Sig was finally able to roll out the successor to the gen 1 10k’s, the 10k gen 2. The gen 2’s are not an entirely new product, that is, the changes are relatively few, but they are all significant. Top of the list is the aforementioned optics issue, but they also added additional buttons for direct wind speed/direction input, as well as making changes to the overall body design. I have had the gen 1’s for a couple years and a set of the gen 2’s for a few months, most significantly through hunting season, and what follows is my impressions on the changes and the package overall after knocking them around in Texas and Colorado this year.Whats in the box
The 10k comes in a pretty nice bag with connections on the back to allow it to be attached to molle equipped packs. Other than that, it has a carry strap, some batteries, a lens pen and a some basic startup instructions. Not a lot of stuff, but nothing you don’t need. The notable exclusion, however, are lens caps for either the front or the back. Personally, I would probably give up everything else, including the bag, for a solid set of lens caps.
Ranging
Having had the original 10k, I had a pretty good idea of what to expect from ranging on the gen 2 version, and I was not disappointed. In some regard, there is really not much to say here. Simply put, the 10k is easily the most powerful rangefinder I have personally tested, by a large margin. Of course, there are many I have not tried, but regardless, the results are impressive.
When testing, as usual, I ranged hillsides, animals (when available), trees and other landscape features. In other words, no street signs or other highly reflective targets ranged at night. I tested only during legal shooting hours, so 30 minutes before sunrise to 30 minutes after sunset. As usual, conditions had a significant effect on ranging capabilities, as did the nature of the targets. At the time of testing, I had a Sig 8k with me, as well as a Leica pro 8x42 in order to get some perspective on the 10k’s performance under the exact same conditions. In short, neither of them could keep up with the 10k. Under very bright conditions on trees, I could easily get beyond 3000 yards handheld. In many cases, braced, 4000 yards plus was possible. As the light went down, those numbers went up drastically, and the separation between the 10k and the other RF’s I had on hand got wider. Suffice it to say, when it comes to ranging, there are no questions about performance here. There is power, and power to spare.
Which does raise the question of what’s the point of all that power, does it really serve a purpose? The answer, at least for me, is yes, but not all of the utility is about shooting. Some certainly is. For example, as I mentioned, as the conditions or targets became less ideal (particularly when the light was extremely bright and hazy, or at angles which make things difficult for rangefinders), the 10k’s ceiling lowered, just as it did for my other rangefinders. Likewise, in snow and rain, the distance decreased markedly. However, when you have a ceiling as high as the 10k has, you are still able to range farther than some RF’s can in the best of conditions. So in poor conditions, you have a rangefinder that can still perform at an incredible level. Case in point, in testing in an absolute downpour, I was still able to range out to nearly a mile on trees. Basically, looking through the bino, if you could make out any texture at all on the tree through the rain, it would range it, and do so without false returns. The 10k has a very powerful laser and highly developed algorithms such that it delivered an amazing level of performance, even in very difficult weather conditions.
But other benefits to the power can be realized as well. In one case, I was able to locate a herd of elk in a distant field using my spotter. I could tell they were several miles off, but as I was in a new area, I was not able to tell where they actually were relative to our hunting area. I also couldn’t accurately tell how far they were, I just knew they were far. But because I was able to range an incredible distance with the 10k’s and because I had the compass heading turned on in the display settings, I was able to figure out exactly where they were….which ended up being well into the next unit deeply into private land. Had I fired up OnX, I could have dropped a pin using the RF/mapping integration, but I didn’t need to once I looked at the heading in the display and the distance. I knew where that was enough to know not to bother. Neither my 8k nor the Pro I had with me could range that far, not even close. Of course I could not range the elk at that distance, but the available landscape features were enough for the 10k to bounce of off for me to see that they were several miles away. My other two RF’s were not even close under those conditions.
So as I discussed in a previous review, that extra power not only helps in ensuring you get your range in bad conditions but, along with the mapping integration that many new RF’s have, it starts to leverage your RF as a navigation tool. It becomes a tool to help you to find downed game, figure out where points of interest are for future exploration, find your way back to a distant place where you may have seen potential game, or to evaluate just exactly how far that buck is and whether it is doable before the end of shooting light.
Lastly, one performance area that should also be considered is speed. That is, how fast does it range, how fast does it return a value and how fast can you re-range in case you miss, hit the wrong target, or want to verify. On all counts, as they always have been for me, the Sig is noticeably faster than anything else I have tested. Ranging is immediate, your solution is right now, and you can hit that button again and re-range immediately. It may sound trivial, but when you are trying to hit a target under pressure and it’s very small and you have missed, and you need to try again and then verify, it’s significant. And here, as with all the Sigs I have tried, the gen 2 excelled.
The 10k gen 2 has an updated body style that is a bit better ergonomically, but the form factor is the same compact size that started with the 3k. It retains the standard stud mounting point for tripod attachment, but updates the battery compartment with a built in thumb-tab to make in field battery changes easier
In summary, in terms of ranging, both of the 10k’s I have had have been absolutely amazing. I have nothing but praise for them in this area of performance, and I can’t imagine anyone being disappointed in them in this regard.
308 AR10 Build Info/Picture Thread
- By sheepdog697
- Semi-Automatic Rifles
- 1219 Replies
Saw this on the gram... looks great
MDT ACC Premier Gen 2 experience? review?
- By drglock
- All Things Rimfire
- 12 Replies
The weather here in north central Oklahoma has been horrible since I got mine for my CZ so haven’t used it in a match yet. But shooting it here at the house I’m really liking it.
DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- All Things Rimfire
- 11570 Replies
Last thing first: What issue(s) are you having?
The 15-round mags amplify "sensitivities" found in the 10-rounders:
- The magazine MUST!! be held at the correct height in your chassis or stock.
My 2019-vintage rifle is in an MPA BA Comp chassis. When it first came from Vudoo, the non-adjustable mag latch allowed about 3/16" or so of vertical play. This was enough to cause feed failures, especially with the last round or two in my 10-round polymer mags. @RAVAGE88 identified the issue immediately upon seeing it. The end result was my receiving an adjustable latch from MPA; as I understand it, that latch is now standard on the BA Comp chassis.
More broadly, consider the gigantic challenge of stripping a rimmed cartridge with a butter soft bullet off an under-tension stack of cartridges and feeding it into a chamber only a few thousandths of an inch larger in diameter than the bullet, without that bullet suffering scrapes or dents on the way in. Then add the manufacturing tolerances of the plethora of R700 stocks and chassis. It's actually pretty incredible that Vudoos work as well as they do.
- The mags, ESPECIALLY the 15-rounders, MUST be loaded correctly.
Look at the cartridge column in my post's photo (included again here) - notice the alternating pattern of the stack. This is accomplished by pressing the follower button down just enough to slide a round under the feed lips, then release the button. The bullet nose should orient itself just above the front of the mag as shown. If the round is "flat" - not angled as shown and the bullet nose points straight at the front wall of the mag - it's wrong; fix it by tapping the base of the mag gently and/or use a fingernail to pull back and down on the cartridge rim; it should pop into position.
Even if each round is loaded correctly, you may notice two bullet noses on the same side of the mag - no alternation. If you leave that uncorrected, a stoppage is almost guaranteed when the bolt tries to feed that slightly misaligned round.
The 10-round mags have the same requirement; it's just that the column doesn't show the pattern as clearly.
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Question on bullet seating.
- Reloading Depot
- 27 Replies
Last year, to my surprise, I happened to see some discarded 6.5 cm Lapua brass that appeared to be just once fired (having what looked like factory sealant around the primer as an indicator), so I picked the 40 rounds laying there for a shooting buddy who reloads that round (I don't shoot the Creedmoor). The different range brass I've collected are from shooters at the range shooting from factory boxes of cartridges while I was there. I've always been careful about picking up range brass, not wanting to have any of those "headaches" from previous reloaded cases; who knows how many times or how they were processed. I've not fired all the different one's in my gun, being I was more interested in the more specific differences (like consistency in weight, primer pocket depths, centering of flash holes, etc.).Truthfully VV powders are a bargain , compared to what those thieves are peddling older US powers produced by " Foreigners " .
What we need as a Country is #4-8 MAJOR munitions producing plants IN THE USA !. Eventually outsourcing comes back to bite one in the ass !.
Range brass pickups are a mixed bag ,sometimes one gets brand new once fired and sometimes one gets headaches from #35 firings in someone Else's chamber . I've not compared a lot of different manufacturers brass , however I've shot and reloaded a crap load of LC & SL 1942-44 .30 Cal M2 once fired in My Garands and was blown away at how many reliable reloads I achieved . #50 I stopped ,cut two cases for real thickness measurement . Easily would go another 10 reloads . I did partial anneal necks after every 3 Rd. firing ,so as not to lose necks from splitting . I also use 1953-68 Mixed 7.62X51mm LC and Match brass ,mainly for M14 and two 7.62X51 Gas guns ,haven't lost a single rim and those extractors are notoriously hard on cases . I used a batch of W cases commercial and after #2 firings scrapped them ,as they looked like a Grizzly bear mauled them and pieces of rims were torn away . So I NEVER us that brand of case in anything ,I reload or shoot .
Laupua is excellent brass but it's also COSTLY now days ,so I tend to avoid it ( unless someone discards it ) ,yet we both know Reloaders DON'T discard Laupa unless it's time has expired . Those days of Lapua Range brass are distant memories .
Swiss make decent brass cases ,as did RWS at one time . IF only FN was still making cases
Initially, I did focus on Federal brass and wanted to see if they'd perform as well as my Lapua brass. And for the most part they have for my .308, but it takes more effort to get cases to the consistency I find in Lapua brass (like culling out outliers). Because their neck thickness and case capacity being close to Lapua and having got them performing close to Lapua brass, I often use them as test cases before I move on to my Lapua brass when trying something new.
Except for last fall when I bought some Lapua Palma brass, I haven't had to buy any of it since I've stocked up pretty well before Covid. LOL. . . I think I've got enough to last the rest of my life
I'm no youngster! I've got a few boxes I picked up as a bargain only paying $79 each for them. 
Night Vision Drones: Changing of the Guard
- By CrazyDoc
- Observation & Sighting Devices
- 27 Replies
Sorry I took all his time lolDamn! @wigwamitus how many head of cattle you got for it to take this long?!
I think I found my new scope
- By oldrifleman
- Observation & Sighting Devices
- 28 Replies
Beans and Rice make a great meal
