Reduced quality 22LR ammo - most match brands

[Tiger_Shilone]

Hmm, so if I'm on a ship in the ocean and my barrel is moving up and down due to the frequency of the waves moving the boat each shot would have a different velocity due to the barrel moving up and down?

All barrels have what's called a natural resonant frequency. That means their vibrations are caused by firing the projectile. Their vibrations are due to physical properties, weight, length, thickness, etc. Vibrations are similar to a guitar string. What the tuner does is moves the resonate mode to a different spot to dampen the natural resonant frequency. There is no difference in speed that the bullet exits if it's at the top, middle, or bottom of the node. The tuner dampens the movement to a minimum. This dampening and tuning is only repeatable if the ammo is repeatable. That's why you may have to tune every lot of ammo. Maybe every box.

How many here used a tuner and then stopped because it was non value added. Meaning is was not worth tuning almost every box of ammo?

Where did you acquire this theory?

You’re almost there, almost ready to learn something .

Tuners don’t dampen barrel movement, they change the timing of barrel whip frequency to match the various different speeds of the bullets so that a slower bullet exits the barrel at a slightly higher trajectory than a faster bullet. The slower bullet will then hit the same POI as the faster bullet since it had a higher arc trajectory. We are only dealing with gravity and resulting barrel droop, not side to side motion.

There is a whole industry built up around tuners. If it didn’t work the tuner aftermarket would not exist. But it isn’t a cure all and has it’s drawbacks as well. It only works for the node it’s tuned to at a specific distance. Change that distance and now the barrel is out of tune and groups will get worse, maybe worse than without the tuner.

You state you’re an engineer so that means you are always right and everyone else is wrong unless it can be proven with hard data. So go to varmintal.com specifically https://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm and see all the FIA stuff this rocket science guy does as a hobby. Lots of pictures and a couple movies make it so even a rube like me can get an idea of how tuning works.

 

[GuideDog]

I'm shooting a Vudoo V22S., ARA Unlimited at 50yds. is my game. I'm not a world beater...just having fun.

I think missed calls on condition change is what affects my shooting the most.




Won't hurt anything to give it a try. Let us know how it shoots for you.

Just so you know....I don't use a chronograph so I have no idea what kind of numbers to expect.

I don't use a chrono either. I just go by POI changes and grouping. As long as is subsonic it's good. I read it's about 1050fps. I use either 18 or 20" length tubes so I don't slow the velocity with a longer barrel.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Shhhhhh!!! LOL!!!

Sorry you know me always trying to be helpful

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I don't use a chrono either. I just go by POI changes and grouping. As long as is subsonic it's good. I read it's about 1050fps. I use either 18 or 20" length tubes so I don't slow the velocity with a longer barrel.

Without a chrono how the hell can you tell what speed correlated to the POI.
damn you should come out here to Vegas and play the tables you'll walk away with some big money, if you can know the speed by mere POI knowing when to bet would be simple for you

Lee

 

[GuideDog]

You’re almost there, almost ready to learn something .

Tuners don’t dampen barrel movement, they change the timing of barrel whip frequency to match the various different speeds of the bullets so that a slower bullet exits the barrel at a slightly higher trajectory than a faster bullet. The slower bullet will then hit the same POI as the faster bullet since it had a higher arc trajectory. We are only dealing with gravity and resulting barrel droop, not side to side motion.

There is a whole industry built up around tuners. If it didn’t work the tuner aftermarket would not exist. But it isn’t a cure all and has it’s drawbacks as well. It only works for the node it’s tuned to at a specific distance. Change that distance and now the barrel is out of tune and groups will get worse, maybe worse than without the tuner.

You state you’re an engineer so that means you are always right and everyone else is wrong unless it can be proven with hard data. So go to varmintal.com specifically https://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm and see all the FIA stuff this rocket science guy does as a hobby. Lots of pictures and a couple movies make it so even a rube like me can get an idea of how tuning works.

Geez you need to re-read that. A tuner does NOT change the velocity of bullets. The article explains the effect of a slower and faster charges propelling the bullet. The whip is dampened or changed by the tuner. Again no change in velocity by the tuner, the barrel acts differently of course (natural frequency) to different velocity charges. Different frequencies are produced changing the oscillation.

It's not hard to understand. What part was I wrong on? The article is about A Harrell tuner and a reverse taper barrel. Do you have one? Do you know someone that does? Reverse taper acts slightly differently but the effect of the tuner is the same, to dampen whip. I explained the effect on a straight barrel since that's very common. They dampen vibration, call it whip or whatever term you want.

What surprising is how people cant comprehend. Sorry, gotta be honest.

Do people buy things like tuners that may or not be useful? Yep! Just asked at the last match if the tuner was helping. Answer, Ask again in a few months. If it worked well the answer would be yes. I also know a few who also purchased one and decided it's not worth trying to tune each new lot or even box of ammo to get 0.1 inch better accuracy. That's why there are different grades of ammo, in a perfect world. But it's not perfect just yet, is it?

Google reverse taper barrel to see how uncommon they are. I don't recall ever seeing one! Again, have you? If so I'll be interest to learn more.

Good explanation on how one works on a reverse taper and why with a tuner.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Geez you need to re-read that. A tuner does NOT change the velocity of bullets. The article explains the effect of a slower and faster charges propelling the bullet. The whip is dampened or changed by the tuner. Again no change in velocity by the tuner, the barrel acts differently of course (natural frequency) to different velocity charges. Different frequencies are produced changing the oscillation.

It's not hard to understand. What part was I wrong on? The article is about A Harrell tuner and a reverse taper barrel. Do you have one? Do you know someone that does? Reverse taper acts slightly differently but the effect of the tuner is the same, to dampen whip. I explained the effect on a straight barrel since that's very common. What surprising is how people cant comprehend. Sorry, gotta be honest.

Google reverse taper barrel to see how uncommon they are. I don't recall ever seeing one! Again, have you? If so I'll be interest to learn more.

Good explanation on how one works on a reverse taper and why with a tuner.

I think you need to read better. what was being mentioned by Tiger was what is called Positive Compensation where you have slow and fast shots intersecting to the same POI. but how can that be? it is called exit timing a fast round will exit earlier than a slow so impact if the exit is unaltered will be different but by placing weight at an exact point forward of the crown you can merge the two different velocities. no one has ever achieved 100% total compensation if one does every different velocity of each round would be at the exact POI so the need for your prefect ammo won't be necessary.

I shoot a rifle with a heavy reverse taper barrel. the best score RBA target is 250-22X shooting CX bought blind. I won 6 consecutive club championships with this very rifle. the tuner I have on it is a modified Harrell lightened to 4.25-oz. I assure you it does not dampen anything. it times the exit of the bullet, so it is near always at the top of the barrel rise.

Lee

 

[Williwaw]

I'll be interest to learn more.

Call me unconvinced.

 

[GuideDog]

I think you need to read better. what was being mentioned by Tiger was what is called Positive Compensation where you have slow and fast shots intersecting to the same POI. but how can that be? it is called exit timing a fast round will exit earlier than a slow so impact if the exit is unaltered will be different but by placing weight at an exact point forward of the crown you can merge the two different velocities. no one has ever achieved 100% total compensation if one does every different velocity of each round would be at the exact POI so the need for your prefect ammo won't be necessary.

I shoot a rifle with a heavy reverse taper barrel. the best score RBA target is 250-22X shooting CX bought blind. I won 6 consecutive club championships with this very rifle. the tuner I have on it is a modified Harrell lightened to 4.25-oz. I assure you it does not dampen anything. it times the exit of the bullet, so it is near always at the top of the barrel rise.

Lee

Yep, I re-read and I was wrong. Never heard of reverse taper and I don't use a tuner. Never needed one. I have shot 250-17X without one.
Dampening changes the timing. There's no other way to do that, but yep it's to have the bullet exit at the top of the wave. No velocity changes to the bullet, just adjusting the weight to dampen the whip, changing the time of the oscillation to hit the max. I never really looked into what a tuner does and assumed it was just reducing the oscillations.

 

[BowChamp]

I don't use a chrono either. I just go by POI changes and grouping. As long as is subsonic it's good. I read it's about 1050fps. I use either 18 or 20" length tubes so I don't slow the velocity with a longer barrel.

Barrel on my Vudoo is just over 26".

 

[oldrifleman]

Barrel on my Vudoo is just over 26".

My anschutz is a 24.5” I wouldn’t mind a 26 though.

 

[Williwaw]

Yep, I re-read and I was wrong. Never heard of reverse taper and I don't use a tuner. Never needed one. I have shot 250-17X without one.
Dampening changes the timing. There's no other way to do that, but yep it's to have the bullet exit at the top of the wave. No velocity changes to the bullet, just adjusting the weight to dampen the whip, changing the time of the oscillation to hit the max. I never really looked into what a tuner does and assumed it was just reducing the oscillations.

You've got it there ... I would just add one tweak. That is rather than timing exit time to a max, how about somewhere on the preceding upslope thereby fast and slow rounds have different launch angles which at least approximately compensate for their otherwise differing POI in the vertical. That is referred to as positive compensation by those of us who have drank the PC koolaid ... not all have.

Your 18 and 20 inch barrels are not good candidates for a tuner. I am shooting my first 27.2 inch barrel and it may be hard to go back to something shorter. But as you know different disciplines require different equipment.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Almost there……..getting closer

Rimfire ammo just plain sux, some brands worse than others. I expect 1-3 turds per box of 50 ( including the “good stuff $$$) and live within those expectations. That’s with “decent” SK, Lapua, or Eley, sometimes Norma and Geco. The only American ammo I’ll use is CCI sv as the low end plinking ammo, everything else is just to inconsistent (browning, remington, federal, winchester, magtech, aguila——all 25 yards or less).

Tuners will correct SMALL inconsistencies in velocity spread (figure 50 fps or less) and will NOT make junk ammo with 100+ fps ES into decent ammo. And that is exactly why they are used by the benchrest crowd looking for that last .100” advantage.

This is all irrelevant if you don’t understand what a tuner is trying to do and don’t use the tools for properly setting one (chronograph and decent rest and indoor range). Lot testing is real and when you run out of a favorite lot the world sucks. Every lot tunes a little different and temperature plays a bigger role than I care to admit. I found large heavy tuners more temp sensitive than lighter tuners

I was an ARA match director for a few years (until the politics of factory class started , I then walked away). and earned an overall state championship win one year. I chronographed probably 80% of the for record shots I took and kept data logs. I could usually tell by sound when a round went out slower or faster than the rest and the view though the scope confirmed a lot of those disappointments. Installing a tuner on my Anschutz made the 1710hb competitive with a one piece rest. Without the tuner it shot in the .2’s and .3’s at 50 yds. With a tuner I got into the high .0’s. Best ever was a testing session indoors with a 5 round group into either .090” or .070” ctc, (id have to look into my notes), it was a great day! I NEVER shot that good outdoors at any of the benchrest matches


At the minimum you need a chronograph to collect fps data. Typical match setup for me with the martini

Indoor 50 yard lot testing and tuner tuning. No wind, consistent temperature, very stable

Can’t hit the bullseye if you dont know what the wind is doing

Anschutz 1710 heavy barrel with large tuner, my main benchrest set up for ARA

started making smaller, lighter tuners for the vudoo and another annie. Weighs in at 2.8 oz iirc

Installed on Anschutz 1712 for NRA metallic silhouette shooting. Works great at one range, but silhouette uses 4 different yardages of 40,60,77, and 100 meters so it came off. Offhand unsupported results don’t require the level of accuracy that a tuner can provide and it wasn’t legal for hunter class, it’s considered an attachment.

Found it. .072” ctc with dial calipers

This was back when @jbell was running the 6x5 thread. Six groups of 5 shots on one target.
I shot the better part of a brick over three hours tuning the anshutz

 

[chevy_man]

Hmm, change the barrel? Not sure that's a good option. No ammo is perfect is understood. The point is that the variability in lots seems to be getting larger. There was a time most if not all Lapua Midas + for example would shoot acceptably tight groups meaning 0.2 inch or smaller. Out of the last 3 lots (bricks of 500) I have 1 that's acceptable. The other 2 might as well be Center-X with more than occasional flyers that hit the 0.5 inch mark. Sure that may be acceptable to some shooters. I have seen the accuracy of rimfire ammo improve until maybe the past 6 months to a year. Now it's gone down along with availability too.

It's all hit and miss and that's why we lot test.

I still haven't found anything that's shoots better than sk long range match for my Bergara. Everything more expensive shoots worse, but then sk standard was horrible too.

I have a Remington that I found a lot of Eley target that shoots single hole groups. Every other lot I've tried since sucked. It consistently shoots eley match (black box) very good, but nothing has ever compared to that magic lot of $30 bricks of target.

 

[GuideDog]

You've got it there ... I would just add one tweak. That is rather than timing exit time to a max, how about somewhere on the preceding upslope thereby fast and slow rounds have different launch angles which at least approximately compensate for their otherwise differing POI in the vertical. That is referred to as positive compensation by those of us who have drank the PC koolaid ... not all have.

Your 18 and 20 inch barrels are not good candidates for a tuner. I am shooting my first 27.2 inch barrel and it may be hard to go back to something shorter. But as you know different disciplines require different equipment.

Yep, I'm winning my local matches without a chrono or a tuner and agree an thick 18 or 20 in barrel will not benefit from a tuner. There are contestants using long barrels and tuners at the matches. I have heard both sides as to if they work. Perhaps the ones with shorter barrels are the ones who have tried them and no longer use them. I did ask one of the winners with a long barrel, perhaps 26" why he uses one and he even said it's questionable. I now understand what they do and how. I always wonder how I manage to win without one but I now contribute it to my 20" MTU Contour barrel being too short to whip much. Then that raises the question on 26 or longer, Why? What's the benefit? I'm sure I'm missing data.

 

[Emerson0311]

Yep, I'm winning my local matches without a chrono or a tuner and agree a thick 18 or 20 in barrel will not benefit from a tuner. There are contestants using long barrels and tuners at the matches. I have heard both sides as to if they work. Perhaps the ones with shorter barrels are the ones who have tried them and no longer use them. I did ask one of the winners with a long barrel, perhaps 26" why he uses one and he even said it's questionable. I now understand what they do and how. I always wonder how I manage to win without one but I now contribute it to my 20" MTU Contour barrel being too short to whip much. Then that raises the question on 26 or longer, Why? What's the benefit? I'm sure I'm missing data.

BR or paper targets for score, correct?

 

[chevy_man]

Yep, I'm winning my local matches without a chrono or a tuner and agree an thick 18 or 20 in barrel will not benefit from a tuner. There are contestants using long barrels and tuners at the matches. I have heard both sides as to if they work. Perhaps the ones with shorter barrels are the ones who have tried them and no longer use them. I did ask one of the winners with a long barrel, perhaps 26" why he uses one and he even said it's questionable. I now understand what they do and how. I always wonder how I manage to win without one but I now contribute it to my 20" MTU Contour barrel being too short to whip much. Then that raises the question on 26 or longer, Why? What's the benefit? I'm sure I'm missing data.

Long barrels tend to be more consistent with velocity. 18" is usually the peak velocity, and running longer tends to help average out the slow and fast for whatever reason.
I still think 22s are black magic, and I'm more interested in consistent results than trying to explain them. So I use the data and spend my time shooting, rather than trying to explain the magic.

 

[GuideDog]

BR or paper targets for score, correct?

Yes, paper targets. IBS Rimfire 50 yard.

 

[GuideDog]

Long barrels tend to be more consistent with velocity. 18" is usually the peak velocity, and running longer tends to help average out the slow and fast for whatever reason.
I still think 22s are black magic, and I'm more interested in consistent results than trying to explain them. So I use the data and spend my time shooting, rather than trying to explain the magic.

Shooting is much better. I still try to understand.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Interesting about tuners...I've never use them, but I'm pretty sure they can improve things (why? because theory and physics say so). The problem is, I think, they are still new things and people don't understand how they work and how to use them correctly. Occasionally we read reports that tuner just worsen groups and they conclude "it doesn't work"

 

[Mr.BR]

Long barrels tend to be more consistent with velocity. 18" is usually the peak velocity, and running longer tends to help average out the slow and fast for whatever reason.
I still think 22s are black magic, and I'm more interested in consistent results than trying to explain them. So I use the data and spend my time shooting, rather than trying to explain the magic.

Definetly long barrels ,smooth things out . It for me somewhat mindbogling that manufacturers are still desperately trying to step on the same rake.

In the field of Olympic shooting they had a short barrel craze couple of decades back , based on solid theory of unsupported rifle muzzle movement while the bullet is traveling through the barrel , they effectively cut barrel time and shooters influence in followtrough ,end of the day while rifles shot well enough they became extremely picky in regards to ammo hard to find ammo made the whole exercise moot and short barrels went the way of dodo never to be heard of again .Round come manufacturers of rifles and start offering 16 and 20inch barrels , and the tapered barrel profiles , reinventing the wheel again for no apparent reason ,when prerequisites for accurate .22LR have been known for decades .

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Interesting about tuners...I've never use them, but I'm pretty sure they can improve things (why? because theory and physics say so). The problem is, I think, they are still new things and people don't understand how they work and how to use them correctly. Occasionally we read reports that tuner just worsen groups and they conclude "it doesn't work"

Tuners are not new there has been one form or another of tuners for over 25 years. what is new is new shooters not understanding how to find the setting for their set up. if you search and use most recommended ways to find a tuner setting most will have you move the tuner and make adjustments of from 25 -100 marks on the tuner scale. making this big of an adjustment will have you pass over a setting which would probably shoot great. IME best way is start with the tuner all the way in even if it is past the marked zero on the scale.
then move by 5 marks at a time. some use even 1 or 2 marks but 5 is the happy medium I found.
But none of the above will work if you do not have good consistent ammo. this is probably the most misunderstood factor most who attempt to use tuner and give up don't understand.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes, paper targets. IBS Rimfire 50 yard.

I started RFBR with that target back then if you didn't shoot 750 total for 3 targets you were going place 2nd or lower. X count would determine the winner in most matches. my best 3 target agg. was 750-54X

Lee

 

[bulletbluesky]

Definetly long barrels ,smooth things out . It for me somewhat mindbogling that manufacturers are still desperately trying to step on the same rake.

In the field of Olympic shooting they had a short barrel craze couple of decades back , based on solid theory of unsupported rifle muzzle movement while the bullet is traveling through the barrel , they effectively cut barrel time and shooters influence in followtrough ,end of the day while rifles shot well enough they became extremely picky in regards to ammo hard to find ammo made the whole exercise moot and short barrels went the way of dodo never to be heard of again .Round come manufacturers of rifles and start offering 16 and 20inch barrels , and the tapered barrel profiles , reinventing the wheel again for no apparent reason ,when prerequisites for accurate .22LR have been known for decades .

I don't recall seeing particularly short pipes 2 decades ago in the Olympics, nor particularly long ones in recent times. I do recall reading they were experimenting with center of mass of the rifle and overall weight of it (which includes barrel lenght and can be a factor in kneeling and standing sessions of the matches) though

 

[Mr.BR]

I don't recall seeing particularly short pipes 2 decades ago in the Olympics, nor particularly long ones in recent times. I do recall reading they were experimenting with center of mass of the rifle and overall weight of it (which includes barrel lenght and can be a factor in kneeling and standing sessions of the matches) though

Anschutz late 90's you could see bunch of these with bulky blop tube barrel weight , and a 500mm barrel
Initialy the boxy 20xx action was only availible with these short barrels only some time later could you buy the 660 and 690mm barrels that were standard for xx07 and xx13 Anschutz , at that time Anschutz was undisputed king of the hill .

Text from brochure:
The asterisk (*) beside 2013 denotes the following: "A reduction in length of rifling of the barrel for shorter lock time!"

Then came the absolute 180° Unique T2000 in with 34in barrels kicked ass.Ask anyone who ever laped a rimfire barrel 30+ in is a pain in the ass to do .

Probably only match winning and record setting rimfire with cut rifled barrels
Fat 30mm diameter but extremely agreesive barrel flutting, when you look at the barrel it looks like a star section not a round fluted tube(picture does not make it justice). Good friend of mine and one of all time ISSF great 3time olimpic medalist and holder of some 16 world records some of them with Unique T2000 Concept X a rifle considered a peak Olyimpic free rifle when budget did not matter.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Good friend of mine and one of all time ISSF great 3time olimpic medalist and holder of some 16 world records some of them with Unique T2000 Concept X a rifle considered a peak Olyimpic free rifle when budget did not matter.

34" BL for 22 rimfire holly molly...
I guess I would certainly notice something like that sticking out from typical group of 25-27 inchers.
Makes me wonder what range of muzzle velocities it used to give

 

[Mr.BR]

34" BL for 22 rimfire holly molly...
I guess I would certainly notice something like that sticking out from typical group of 25-27 inchers.
Makes me wonder what range of muzzle velocities it used to give

It was probably slow as fuck but ,it worked well , due to such lenght you never seen one with blop tube for the front diopter sight.

It kind of makes me chuckle all Rimfire ammo exept pistol variety is made for and factory QC tested in barrels 24-26in long and then precision rifle rimfires start fuckign around with 16 and 20in barrels ,when 24 is a gold standard in BR and 26 in ISSF


Some of the old rants from Bill Calfee's forum

About this 28 inch, Dan Muller, 90 driver 4-groove:
Back some time ago, I was working with extremely long barrels.....30 to 32 inches...
I got Dan Muller to make me up a 32 inch 90 driver 4..
When I evaluated it, there was a spot about three inches back of the muzzle that I was afraid of......

So I never used it......

And then Chuck "Raging Inferno" Morrell did what he did with a 27 inch Muller MI, 12,050 PSL, so I thought about that 90 driver, got it back out, re-evaluated it, nothing had changed, of course, and fit it to my PAS triple build.....

I got just slightly over 28 inches out of it.....

I'd love to brag on it........but I ain't going to.....cause these rimfires will let you down ever time you do....

There's more to this story, having to do with what I've learned about super long barrels, which I'll relate some day soon....
I've been playing with my new pistol build the past couple of weeks and therefore put my 28" driver barrel testing on the back burner....
Till yesterday afternoon.....

This thing is stout.....and so forgiving.
The world of big time RFBR has been owned for years now by 24x900's.......and maybe always will be.....

But my gut tells me, along with a 27 1/4", 4-MI Muller barrel that turned the single most impressive score in the history of big time RFBR, Chuck Morrell's 12,050 PSL record, that there just may be a benefit to barrels longer than the killer 24x900's.....

I've known ever since I got into rimfire accuracy that the ammo we use does better and better if the length of the barrel exceeds the peak burn pressure of the ammo...

There's no doubt that an 18 inch barrel will shoot as good as a 24, if, it has ammo that is exactly the same velocity......which we don't have.

Over the years, I've found the further the crown is away from the peak burn pressure, the more the quality of the barrel, itself, comes into play in producing accuracy...

The shorter barrels are completely dependent on the quality of the ammo used to produce accuracy...
__________________________________
Now, the only question I have yet to answer, is this:
"What is the optimum length for a RFBR barrel, using the ammo we have today?"
There's no question that 27 1/4" is not too long.....
And now it's looking like 28 inches may not be too long either....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

I'm positive that there is a benefit to long rimfire barrels in producing accuracy.
Raging Inferno being the best example, that PSL 12,050 from its 27 1/4" Muller 4 MI.

But, in playing with some long barrels, long like in 30 inches, plus, I've run into lengthy vibration issues.....the barrel vibrates for an exceptionally long time after being fired, before it settles down.....

And this issue is compounded by the weight of the MD (tuner).
___________________
I've got a 32-1/14 inch Muller, 4 groove, 90 driver blank.
I spent some time slugging it again yesterday....
If I'm careful, I can use almost the entire 32 inches.......I'll probably kill a half inch at the muzzle just for insurance.

So, why do I feel this long 32 inch will react to those extended vibration issues any differently than the other super long barrels I've fooled with?
This is where my screwball idea comes in.
I'm going to fool this 32 inch barrel into believing it's only 24 inches long.

Well the French had similar Ideas and XCONCEPT chassis was designed with barrel block
Amat won gold in 3P and set new record in Atlanta Games my friend Rajmond won gold in 3P in Sidney Games with one , rest is history. While Unique is gone ,as are Xconcept chassis , but new interpretation of that chassis with even more adjustable barrel blocks is still around with new Esprit carbine chassis.

Similar type of barrel block as used on original XConcept chassis ,block can be set up at different lenghts and it uses a teflon wedge compresed by a nut

 

[GIXXER2000]

I just tested 6 Lots of Eley Tenex and was surprised at how well 5 of the 6 lots shot. These lotS all shot much better than ammo made in 2024
Here were the group averages by lot number shooting 5 5 shot groups best to worst SIZE, AVG FPS, SD, ES

1 1025-05248-1061 = .127 AVG FPS 1098.8, SD 6.8, ES 24.4
2 1025-03242-1056 = .148 AVG FPS 1101.1, SD 7.1, ES 28.6
3 1025-03253-1060 = 1.71 AVG FPs 1096.4, SD 8.4, ES 32.7
4 1025-03241-1060 = 1.88 AVG FPS 1125.9, SD 7.9, ES 30.6
5 1025-03249-1058 = 1.91 AVG FPS 1082.0, SD 9.7, ES 38.2
6 1025-04299-1046 = 2.84 AVG FPS 1094.2, SD 7.9, ES 45.5

All groups shot group using 2500X, Muller 8, ROTX stock, BIX&ANDY Trigger, Harrel's tuner.

 

[GuideDog]

I just tested 6 Lots of Eley Tenex and was surprised at how well 5 of the 6 lots shot. These lotS all shot much better than ammo made in 2024
Here were the group averages by lot number shooting 5 5 shot groups best to worst SIZE, AVG FPS, SD, ES

1 1025-05248-1061 = .127 AVG FPS 1098.8, SD 6.8, ES 24.4
2 1025-03242-1056 = .148 AVG FPS 1101.1, SD 7.1, ES 28.6
3 1025-03253-1060 = 1.71 AVG FPs 1096.4, SD 8.4, ES 32.7
4 1025-03241-1060 = 1.88 AVG FPS 1125.9, SD 7.9, ES 30.6
5 1025-03249-1058 = 1.91 AVG FPS 1082.0, SD 9.7, ES 38.2
6 1025-04299-1046 = 2.84 AVG FPS 1094.2, SD 7.9, ES 45.5

All groups shot group using 2500X, Muller 8, ROTX stock, BIX&ANDY Trigger, Harrel's tuner.

View attachment 8785842

Where's the 2024 data? Where's the measured groups on target? It could be better.... need more data.

 

[grauhanen]

Long barrels tend to be more consistent with velocity. 18" is usually the peak velocity, and running longer tends to help average out the slow and fast for whatever reason.

Is this an impression or is there evidence that supports the idea that longer barrels "help average out the slow and fast" rounds? It would be good to see accumulated data on this.

 

[grauhanen]

Anschutz late 90's you could see bunch of these with bulky blop tube barrel weight , and a 500mm barrel
Initialy the boxy 20xx action was only availible with these short barrels only some time later could you buy the 660 and 690mm barrels that were standard for xx07 and xx13 Anschutz , at that time Anschutz was undisputed king of the hill .

Anschutz did offer a 500mm (19.7 inch) barrel with the 20xx action when it first came out in the early 1990s. It may have first served as the barreled action for the Anschutz BR-50 benchrest rifle.

By 1995 the 2013 with the long, heavy 690mm (27.1 inch) barrel was available. (In fact it's shown in the 1995/1996 Anschutz brochure excerpt you show.) In the 1990s other smallbore match rifle makers such as Walther and FWB didn't offer short barrel models.

 

[chevy_man]

Is this an impression or is there evidence that supports the idea that longer barrels "help average out the slow and fast" rounds? It would be good to see accumulated data on this.

There's plenty of people just on the hide that have went back to 22-26" rimfire barrels because they're less picky about ammo.

I'm far to lazy to go digging through all the old threads though.

 

[GuideDog]

There's plenty of people just on the hide that have went back to 22-26" rimfire barrels because they're less picky about ammo.

I'm far to lazy to go digging through all the old threads though.

But where's the evidence (data)? Don't need threads. Just the explanation as to how "longer barrels help average out the slow and fast rounds". Is this assuming sub-sonic ammo is being used or what is the "standard" velocity? Won't the consistency of the ammo will have a much greater effect on performance and not the barrel length?

It would be interesting if we could give the lengths, let's say 16 to 24 inches the same lot of ammo and see the results with sub-sonic ammo. First there could be so much variation in the barrel construction it could be impossible to make a conclusion that length makes a barrel less picky about ammo or even smooths velocity spikes. I think we verify theories with actual data so is there any to support this theory? Some theories sound very good, but we always should always verify.

Hey, I'm not saying what's true, just asking if there's data.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

But where's the evidence (data)? Don't need threads. Just the explanation as to how "longer barrels help average out the slow and fast rounds".

Where's the evidence /data as you say it doesn't?

Lee

 

[Mr.BR]

Well for a true test you would need at minimum two identical builds with different barrel lenghts , but more ideal would be a single action with multiple barrels. And even for this barrel to barrel differences would make the small sample size problematic.

But at least anecdotal evidence suggest longer barrels are farr less picky in terms of ammo.

How long is optimal? that is a different question , but lets just say RFBR is shooting on 24' barrels, ISSF rifles have most often had 26in ,Biathlon runs 21.5in

 

[oldrifleman]

But where's the evidence (data)? Don't need threads. Just the explanation as to how "longer barrels help average out the slow and fast rounds". Is this assuming sub-sonic ammo is being used or what is the "standard" velocity? Won't the consistency of the ammo will have a much greater effect on performance and not the barrel length?

It would be interesting if we could give the lengths, let's say 16 to 24 inches the same lot of ammo and see the results with sub-sonic ammo. First there could be so much variation in the barrel construction it could be impossible to make a conclusion that length makes a barrel less picky about ammo or even smooths velocity spikes. I think we verify theories with actual data so is there any to support this theory? Some theories sound very good, but we always should always verify.

Hey, I'm not saying what's true, just asking if there's data.

I am pretty sure than anything less than a large double blind study would fail to provide what you would accept as evidence. The rest of us learn from experience. We try things and some work, some don’t and some work better. It is almost always anecdotal but it drives our actions. Mine says that newer 22 or ammo is the most consistent I have seen. It also tells me that if I want the last 3% of potential accuracy I need to send the rifle to be tested, in my case to Lapua and then buy a shit load of whatever they find works best ( I mark the cases with which rifle they are for). I know that Tuners can tune some deviation out of even the best pairing, I was told this by ANA master smith Steve Bolton ( who has written several things on 22 accuracy), I ignored his advice to get one installed by him only to later go back and get it done. I know that every single 22 I have owned prefers different lots best, but that unless I am shooting BR with them Lapua CenterX or Midas +, will work really well. I know that my most picky rifle ( that I still own) is a Winchester 52c that a previous owner rebarreled with a rather short (19”) fat Lilja barrel ( spectacular shooter with ammo it really likes, but very picky) my least picky is my 24.5 x 1.05 inch 1727f/AI/Bartlein.
No these are the things I know, none of it means anything to you. And I guess I should accept that and ignore the thread (I probably won’t but hey), enjoy hearing yourself blather.

 

[GIXXER2000]

Where's the 2024 data? Where's the measured groups on target? It could be better.... need more data.

Sorry that DATA long gone for all but the lot I ordered 5 bricks. Here is the one lot of Tenex that did shot good lot (1024-03451-1059) AVG FPS 1103, SD 6.8,ES 32.7 over 46 shots last time out. Had 2 flyers with a -19.2 fps and +13.5that caused the 32.7 ES. So if I exclude those 2 shots the ES drops to 23.7.
I didn't measure any groups but did shoot 1 ARA target for practice here was the score 2275 11X. The -19.2 dropped into the 25 and the 13.5 was a 50

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I guess I should accept that and ignore the thread

There is a "Pearls Before Swine" comic panels that shows Pig (or Rat) asking Wise Ass on the Hill, "What is the secret to happiness?"

Wise Ass answers, "Don't argue with idiots on the internet."
-------
I have searched in vain for that particular strip. It was pre-pandemic.

 

[GuideDog]

Where's the evidence /data as you say it doesn't?

Lee

"First there could be so much variation in the barrel construction it could be impossible to make a conclusion that length makes a barrel less picky about ammo or even smooths velocity spikes"

There ya go. That's a fact. Isn't all this just for mostly for fun anyway? Isn't it always better to have data?

 

[GuideDog]

I am pretty sure than anything less than a large double blind study would fail to provide what you would accept as evidence. The rest of us learn from experience. We try things and some work, some don’t and some work better. It is almost always anecdotal but it drives our actions. Mine says that newer 22 or ammo is the most consistent I have seen. It also tells me that if I want the last 3% of potential accuracy I need to send the rifle to be tested, in my case to Lapua and then buy a shit load of whatever they find works best ( I mark the cases with which rifle they are for). I know that Tuners can tune some deviation out of even the best pairing, I was told this by ANA master smith Steve Bolton ( who has written several things on 22 accuracy), I ignored his advice to get one installed by him only to later go back and get it done. I know that every single 22 I have owned prefers different lots best, but that unless I am shooting BR with them Lapua CenterX or Midas +, will work really well. I know that my most picky rifle ( that I still own) is a Winchester 52c that a previous owner rebarreled with a rather short (19”) fat Lilja barrel ( spectacular shooter with ammo it really likes, but very picky) my least picky is my 24.5 x 1.05 inch 1727f/AI/Bartlein.
No these are the things I know, none of it means anything to you. And I guess I should accept that and ignore the thread (I probably won’t but hey), enjoy hearing yourself blather.

Hey, some like hearing you blather too. LOL

We are all having fun, right? That's what discussions are for. Maybe we learn, sure some won't. But if we learn it's all for the better.

 

[GuideDog]

There is a "Pearls Before Swine" comic panels that shows Pig (or Rat) asking Wise Ass on the Hill, "What is the secret to happiness?"

Wise Ass answers, "Don't argue with idiots on the internet."
-------
I have searched in vain for that particular strip. It was pre-pandemic.
View attachment 8786304

I like that.

 

[Frank Green]

Anschutz late 90's you could see bunch of these with bulky blop tube barrel weight , and a 500mm barrel
Initialy the boxy 20xx action was only availible with these short barrels only some time later could you buy the 660 and 690mm barrels that were standard for xx07 and xx13 Anschutz , at that time Anschutz was undisputed king of the hill .

Text from brochure:
The asterisk (*) beside 2013 denotes the following: "A reduction in length of rifling of the barrel for shorter lock time!"

Then came the absolute 180° Unique T2000 in with 34in barrels kicked ass.Ask anyone who ever laped a rimfire barrel 30+ in is a pain in the ass to do .

Probably only match winning and record setting rimfire with cut rifled barrels
Fat 30mm diameter but extremely agreesive barrel flutting, when you look at the barrel it looks like a star section not a round fluted tube(picture does not make it justice). Good friend of mine and one of all time ISSF great 3time olimpic medalist and holder of some 16 world records some of them with Unique T2000 Concept X a rifle considered a peak Olyimpic free rifle when budget did not matter.

Not the only one with cut rifled barrels. The G&E rifles are also cut rifled. For several years in a row we made them 22RF barrels. I do believe they are making they're own now. They made all of they're own centerfire rifled barrels but where not making the RF on they're own.

Nice stick you have there!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

We do reverse muzzle taper barrels. Typically it's like $35 extra for that contour if you want it.

I'm going to tell you there is no benefit to it. It was originally done in my opinion for the button rifled barrels so the bore wouldn't get bigger / go sour at the muzzle end when the contoured the blanks. Having that heavier wall thickness at the muzzle end would help resist the bore going sour during contouring.

RF ammo it is what it is. Even back when Pope made barrels in the late 1800's and early 1900's I hated RF because of the factory ammo. Times haven't really changed a whole lot. LOL!

Had a customer cleaning house in RF BR with one of our barrels a while back. Called up and said we need to make a replacement. I asked why? He said he ran out of ammo and had to buy another lot and bought 10k rounds of it with out doing a lot test and the new lot didn't shoot as good and said we need to replace the barrel. I said not happening. The ammo is the variable here. I've seen the real cheap ammo at times outshoot the really expensive stuff. Even when shooting a custom barrel on my bullseye target pistol. $3 box of ammo out shot the $12 box of ammo.

Either do lot testing yourself before you buy a bunch or send your rifle to the Lapua facility or Eley and have them run a test for you and then pick out what shot the best and go and buy 5k or more rounds of that same lot.

Barrel length vs accuracy on 22RF that is open to a big interpretation there. I went from longer barrels on my small bore gun back in the day to shorter ones. Typically around 21". The faster that bullet got out of the barrel the less chance I had in blowing the shot. If I wanted to run iron sights I had a bloop tube for that otherwise pretty much shot scope. I'd run the scope in the prone and sitting and kneeling position but ran the irons for offhand.

I always had good luck with RWS R50 ammo and the 90's made Federal Ultra Match ammo.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

In centerfire rifles the saying goes, "bullets, powder and barrel" those three things have to work together. Just because the gun doesn't shoot doesn't mean the bullets or barrel is bad or the powder. It could be one of those or it could be all three not working together causing your issue.

Now you throw in box ammo let alone the topic here is production box RF ammo.

The barrel is nothing more than a pressure vessel. If the barrel was made good with consistent bore and groove sizes over the length of the barrel and a uniform twist rate etc.... the barrel is the least of your problems. It's ammo, bullets, powder.

I didn't see any conversation about chamber spec's here on the 22RF as well as cleaning.

 

[oldrifleman]

In centerfire rifles the saying goes, "bullets, powder and barrel" those three things have to work together. Just because the gun doesn't shoot doesn't mean the bullets or barrel is bad or the powder. It could be one of those or it could be all three not working together causing your issue.

Now you throw in box ammo let alone the topic here is production box RF ammo.

The barrel is nothing more than a pressure vessel. If the barrel was made good with consistent bore and groove sizes over the length of the barrel and a uniform twist rate etc.... the barrel is the least of your problems. It's ammo, bullets, powder.

I didn't see any conversation about chamber spec's here on the 22RF as well as cleaning.

There you go re-starting the Rimfire Cleaning Religious wars again

 

[Frank Green]

There you go re-starting the Rimfire Cleaning Religious wars again

Sorry man... I had to throw it in there!!!!!!

 

[Csafisher]

So the “harmonic” frequency would be moving many times faster than the bullet. And also the bullets would be varying in speed. So how can they exit at the same “time.”



There are many videos like the above showing no muzzle vibrations.

Even if tuners work, the amount shots required for a reasonable confidence level to determine the best setting is a lot more that what most of y'all are doing…. I think @stats_guy just dropped an app that will do these statistics.

 

[grauhanen]

There's plenty of people just on the hide that have went back to 22-26" rimfire barrels because they're less picky about ammo.

I'm far to lazy to go digging through all the old threads though.

There's an over-abundance of anecdotal reports on the internet and forums on just about everything under the sun. There can be no doubt that there are posts claiming that longer barrels do what you say they do -- that is "help average out the slow and fast" rounds. But that's not the same as evidence.

On the other hand, there are posts that suggest that it is in fact shorter rather than longer barrels that have smaller ES and SD numbers.
See, for example, what Landy (HuskerP7M8), who knows something about .22LR, said about the question a while back:

The increase in V ES in longer barrels is because friction is a significant force on the bullet from about 6 inches on. Friction robs the bullet of a given amount of energy per unit length traveled up the barrel. But, the energy of the bullet goes as the velocity squared, so slower bullets will slow down quicker than faster bullets. This will lead to an increase in ES with increasing lengths of a barrel.
See post #131 here https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/50-at-200.1129343/page-7?post_id=11171981#post-11171981

Of course this isn't evidence either. But Landy is experienced, knowledgeable, and has considerable expertise.

Perhaps there's something to longer barrels being less picky about ammo because they are heavier, not because they are longer, but that too is without evidence, even though a lot of posts may insist it's true.

 

[bulletbluesky]

There must be combo of factors that sometimes enable more accuracy to a longer riffle barrel than shorter the one. And it's not just in the case 22LR, but centerfire catridges as well. Example: one of the most accurate weapons ever chambered in 7.62x39 mm cartridge is probably Iraqi Tabuk. That designated "marksman rifle" had relatively thin barrel 24" long. In experiments in "Crvena Zastava" factory in ex Yugoslavia, it was discovered that it is more accurate that previously thought the most accurate M72 rifle with 22" long barrel. And it wasn't just more accurate with higher grade ammo, but also with most of factory ammos. Machines, tolerances and materials used in the process of making both rifles were same. I suppose during experimental development of designing the rifle they found a sweet spot, kind of redistributed tuner device at work lol

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

So the “harmonic” frequency would be moving many times faster than the bullet. And also the bullets would be varying in speed. So how can they exit at the same “time.”



There are many videos like the above showing no muzzle vibrations.

Even if tuners work, the amount shots required for a reasonable confidence level to determine the best setting is a lot more that what most of y'all are doing…. I think @stats_guy just dropped an app that will do these statistics.

The example you are giving is in the case of a CF
RF is a whole different thing. given the rifle is sound with a good barrel and consistent ammo you can tune a rifle with less than 100 rounds.

Lee

 

[oldrifleman]

The example you are giving is in the case of a CF
RF is a whole different thing. given the rifle is sound with a good barrel and consistent ammo you can tune a rifle with less than 100 rounds.

Lee

He just likes to expound on topics using unrelated un-collaborated tangential evidence that fits his point of view. The link between center fire tuning and Rimfire tuning is one word without background facts. Rimfire tuners are a proven entity in the Rimfire benchrest community.