I don't see how you can expect the rifle company to warranty your firearm. Every manufacture I know of will state that using Handloads will void any warranty, which you have done. Glad you are ok, but you put the handload in your rifle and pulled the trigger.
Gunsmithing Input on what happened to this brass...
- Thread starter Fenix Mike
- Start date
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Like I said before, there is no proof the powder is mixed, I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion based on a picture.
But if that gun was made with incorrect hardness of steel in the barrel, or something to that tune, they sure as the fuck should-better stand behind their product.
Doesn't matter if the powder was mixed or not, it was a handload so it voids most every warranty out there. Not saying that if there was something wrong with the gun they shouldn't stand by it, but it is a handload. If this was one of his factory PPU rounds that he was shooting first then I would say either PPU or the rifle manufacture will be at fault.
It will be an uphill fight to prove to the rifle manufacture that they are at fault because he used a handload. Thats what I am saying in a nut shell.
Hodgdon, if they're willing, is probably your best bet for some answers. IMHO, all they will be able to do is confirm samples sent to them are either mixed or not and maybe tell you what type or approx. burn rate. That limited info may prove the handloads sent to be unsafe, but can't prove anything about the one fired. Bad situation all around, other than the fact you still have eyes, hands, ...
Good luck (and I do accept PM's here if you wanted to send that vid or pictures....
)
Good luck (and I do accept PM's here if you wanted to send that vid or pictures....
)Sure, it's just a picture, but it is very clear in that picture that there are no less than two different size/shape/colors of Kernel. That alone is not normal for any powders I've taken a gander at or used, and I've used H1000 and it most definitely does not consist of kernels of varying size/length/color.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
So what exactly is the intent of this thread?
Seems to me, that alot are getting spun-up over this, and shouldn't be. If, and I do say 'IF' there is to be any outcome of this 'story',,,, then I suggest that we simply wait and see what that outcome is going to be.
Either way, it will be interesting. Chances are, entertaining as well.
Seems to me, that alot are getting spun-up over this, and shouldn't be. If, and I do say 'IF' there is to be any outcome of this 'story',,,, then I suggest that we simply wait and see what that outcome is going to be.
Either way, it will be interesting. Chances are, entertaining as well.
I just looked at this pic closer. Dang! That looks like a spread of rice-a-roni!! It looks like several different colors of kernel in there, a couple different shapes, and a few different lengths. Like a potpourri of kernels if you will. How good of a friend is this friend of yours? That looks like the last of several cans of stuff that were thrown together to get rid of. Wow.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
I appreciate the more respectful post... basically he bought an item off me and in exchange I got about 75 pieces of brass, 2 boxes of SMK bullets, some primed Lapua cases, and 8 rounds that he had made up for his gun. I gave one to a friend for analysis, took 6 apart last night, and obviously 1 was fired. Depending which book you look at, they all have different answers on the correct load, however only the Sierra 5th edition has the load data for the 250 gr SMK HPBT, which states 3.680 OAL and up to 100 gr of H1000. All 6 of the rounds I took apart last night were 3.695-3.705 OAL. All bullets were SMK and came in at 249.98-249.99 gr each. All brass was Lapua brass... So I can figure at least these were consistent and "guess" the round fired was the same. I sold all my reloading stuff last year so I had to go buy a scale, mic and puller just for this, but had planned on getting another Dillon anyway just for this gun. According to the Sierra manual, all loads were within "spec" other than the variable on what the powder issue is, and waiting to hear back from Hodgdon after I sent him pictures.
Last edited:
waiting to hear back, he wanted the information on the brass as well so I sent him what i had and that was a few hours ago
I havent made any threats to the company in question, I am merely looking for proof either way to see which route, if any, I should pursue.
For a while Ford was voiding warranties to those using aftermarket oil filters in their engines when they had a catastrophic failure, Hyundai and others now follow the same rules... How would you feel if a dealer told you your engine is junk and based on the fact that you had a mobil 1 filter instead of Ford/Hyundai etc that your warranty was voided regardless of the failure, and did not provide sufficient proof either way? If I see a detailed test showing the failure was 100% the round fired and absolutely nothing to do with the gun whatsoever, id agree with you... but the answer "you used a hand load, its your fault" doesnt fly with me. Not when those who have looked at the gun in their hands locally also said not the ammo. Again though, now the powder thing is a variable I didnt expect, we will see what Hodgdon says and if I have to send a sample to them.
Last edited:
I agree with you 100%, which is why im going the educational route and not the bash on every forum until they die route. Ive owned a business and come out of pocket plenty of times to take care of someone where I was 99% sure it was their fault, but couldnt prove it nor in good confidence say screw off and fix it yourself. IF this was a smear attempt, rest assured the video and pictures would have more than done their duty and got me nowhere.
Hopes that there may be a pro or two on here that deals with this kind of stuff on a regular basis. And sure enough, ive received a few PMs from lurkers in here that gave me some nice information and knew exactly what I was shooting as well as seen the problem before. Ive learned a ton about the powders, loads etc from this thread and would probably still be at square 1 had it not been for some of the input, so id say this thread did exactly what it was supposed to do. Hopefully others will also learn from the mistakes made and not make them as well.
From him after showing him the pics of the powder - "Im still loading from that lot for my win mag, never had any problems".
Again though, im not placing any blame, I just want to get to the bottom of this.
Your analogy is like the factory ammo in your gun like I said. If your engine took a dump on you and it was because of the filter you would go after the manufacture of the filter would you not? Who would you blame if you use a home made filter? No one is going to warranty handloads. Who were the people who have looked at it? Are they experts in the firearms field? Are they experts in this sort of thing? No one here has seen any of the pictures except of the suspect powder so we are only giving you information on what we have seen.
The "you used handloads, its your fault" may not fly with you but it is in writting in you manual/warranty, and that is all that matters no matter how much it sucks. I still think something about that powder does not look right and you are going in the right direction by getting in contact with Hodgdon. Good Luck and most importantly you are still around to figure this out.
Last edited:
I haven't done my QuickLoad homework like Sniper Uncle has, but that's the same load I used with my TRG-42, except I was using 250gr Lapua Scenars. I don't think anyone asked about your COAL, but if your bullet was into the lands at primer ignition you may have created a pressure spike as a result. You might check your buddy's ammo and measure the COAL to determine if it's longer than your own. Glad you're OKay, that's the important thing.
Last edited:
Looking at the original pictures of case failure I notice a lack of carbon on the case. A failure of a case like that would leave a lot of carbon on the case. The shell base has no ejector mark(or its hard to see) visible a failure like that would leave one or any more damage.
The case bent back would not of come out clean like that.
There are no pics of scope damage or rifle damage I know I would have take a whole bunch.
Judgement can't be made until all is known
The case bent back would not of come out clean like that.
There are no pics of scope damage or rifle damage I know I would have take a whole bunch.
Judgement can't be made until all is known
I think you missed my point... with the vehicles, its not always the filters fault, but they just automatically assume since the filter isnt factory, that its the customers fault. Im not trying to start fights on here, im just looking for those with more experience than I have, and having been on both sides of the business/customer equation, I dont always go for simple answers without some sort of proof. Had that been a factory round, im sure PPU would have said its the rifle companies fault, and the rifle company will blame PPU, who might blame something else etc. I just want to find every possibility, then approach the issue with all my information.
Good point on the carbon, I had noticed that too but forgot to mention it. The inside of that case looks WAY clean. Not sure what that is indicating, but it IS indicating something.
To me, it looks like there is a bit of ejector mark. I'd expect if there were enough pressure to frag the rifle, there'd be enough pressure to really extrude the casehead into the ejector hole...
the rounds I measured were 3.695-3.705 with most being +/- .002 of 3.700
I will take some of the scope, I have already talked to Nightforce and sounds like they are all in for showing pics of a scope that could be the only thing that saved my life.
Not taking it like you are starting a fight at all. Hope I didn't come across like that.
What I ment by the PPU vs Rifle is that each one will be able to do tests and determine who is at fault, each is a company and has the means to prove they are not at fault and that the other company is at fault. Where when you use a handload its your word vs the companies and basically you don't have a chance with that.
If it were a factory round of ammunition, you could save other rounds from the box and let the ammunition manufacturer check them out while the rifle manufacturer checked out the rifle. You might still be out of luck even in that case if both companies insisted their products appeared to be perfectly normal.
Here, I suspect the rifle manufacturer will test pieces of the steel in the returned barrel, see that it is normal other than having been blown apart, and conclude that it must have been bad ammunition.
Here, I suspect the rifle manufacturer will test pieces of the steel in the returned barrel, see that it is normal other than having been blown apart, and conclude that it must have been bad ammunition.
I did check QL again with Sierra's bullet data, and they are also saying 95.0 max load at 3.072" COAL. Mike is correct in reading the Sierra data which he quoted. I cannot give any light on why such differences in load data, but that is specifically why all the books and sources say to start low and work up.
Question, I know that my Rem 700-P had a rather large chamber. I hear that certain other brands are rather tight in the chamber. Could it be that this particular rifle was jammed on the lands at this COAL???
I also cannot explain anything to do with the lack of soot, as mentioned by Turbo and Thud. Some of my loads do not leave much carbon at all on the cases.
Question 2, could it be possible that if indeed there were two powder types, that the flame was hot enough to burn all the carbon out? I know that in diesel engines, the hotter you run them, the less carbon is deposited, and wondering if the same principle could be at work here.
I was loading 96 to 97 grains of H1000 into Lapua cases with a 250gr Scenar on top. I've noticed that QL overestimates the fill percentage compared to my experience. My 338Lapua load was not compressed either.
The last few images showing the neck and top of the case folded inward is an indication of that an overpressure originated in front of the round. Either the bullet was delayed due to friction with the lands, or there was a barrel obstruction. The fold-back looks like it was due to gas pressure and not debris blow-back because it's smooth; I would expect debris damage to leave strike marks on the case.
Fenix Mike, I think an evaluation of your rifle might reveal where the initial rupture occurred and point to potential causes. The information you've provided doesn't point to an obvious problem with the round itself, especially the images. I'm guessing you don't want to state what rifle you were shooting; if you do later, others with the same rifle may be able to comment based on their experience and knowledge.
PS To do a proper QL calculation, you need to know the water volume of an expended Lapua case from your particular rifle, as well as the measured length of the bullet and COAL.
PPS One additional, but remote possibility: If your rifle was chambered for a small diameter cartridge neck (some benchrest rifles are done this way), the bullet might have been stuck in the cartridge because the case neck could not expand to let the burning gas excape. A sign to you might have been difficulty in pushing the round fully into the chamber; no notable difficulty though doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, measure the neck diameters of your buddy's ammo as well.
Last edited:
S
Sniper Aunt
Guest
Uncle,
You dont know your ass from a hole in the ground on this one cowboy!
While you have been sleezing around town with that slut sally-sue - I've been loading up 338LM and smoking holes in paper at 2300yds.
All factory Remington chambers are oversize - thats a fact.
I think there is a chance this barrel was filled with glitter and when Phallus Mike lit the fuse - it wasnt sparkles and fantasy spraying everywhere....it was sadness and tears.
Se you bed dumpling - Be ready for a hardy pegging tonight. I got my new Strap-on.
You dont know your ass from a hole in the ground on this one cowboy!
While you have been sleezing around town with that slut sally-sue - I've been loading up 338LM and smoking holes in paper at 2300yds.
All factory Remington chambers are oversize - thats a fact.
I think there is a chance this barrel was filled with glitter and when Phallus Mike lit the fuse - it wasnt sparkles and fantasy spraying everywhere....it was sadness and tears.
Se you bed dumpling - Be ready for a hardy pegging tonight. I got my new Strap-on.
I am pleased to see that your first post makes you look like such an asshole! I actually do know what I am talking about on the soot in diesel engines, and I was asking a question, out of ignorance, and admitting to said ignorance, trying to learn something. All you do is come on here, where there was in intelligent discussion going on, and start spewing horse-shit. Suggest you keep quiet if you don't have anything constructive to say.
S
Sniper Aunt
Guest
User Banned for personal attacks and false account
Last edited by a moderator:
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Uncle, I take it's not your wife!
Funny none the less.
Funny none the less.
Yeah, it is kinda funny in a sick way.
I am the class-less one in my family, so you would be correct Milo.
It was a good run, though, two and a half pages before it went too far south, No? ;-)
This thread could of generated some knowledge for people. But there are always some holes that need to ruin it for others. To the holes GO AWAY.
I talked with NF and im going to post the scope pics tonight for everyone to see. Unfortunately any pics of the rifle pieces will give it away rather quickly, but I will see if i can get one of the barrel.
I'd be asking asking the manufacturer why type of metallurgical testing they do. What I'd do is listen to how they respond. What I want to know is if they do destructive testing or not...it's the only way to accurately determine what happened. If not, then the final decision is merely an opinion without supporting evidence.
If they do not do destructive testing, I'd get the rifle back (may require an attorney to negotiate this). The reason I'd give them is that you want to have the barrel sectioned by a metallurgist to determine the if the barrel was flawed, either by machining process or was supplied to them with a flaw. "return my rifle or send me a new one". If they gave me any "we can't return a firearm in that condition due to policy/liability" crap, I'd let the attorney deal with it.
Unfortunately the attorney costs money but sometimes it's not near as much as you'd expect.
be careful of posting pics of the rifle at this time. Since you still have a chance of the manufacturer taking care of you, the last thing you want to do is to give them a reason to say go jump in a lake.
If they do not do destructive testing, I'd get the rifle back (may require an attorney to negotiate this). The reason I'd give them is that you want to have the barrel sectioned by a metallurgist to determine the if the barrel was flawed, either by machining process or was supplied to them with a flaw. "return my rifle or send me a new one". If they gave me any "we can't return a firearm in that condition due to policy/liability" crap, I'd let the attorney deal with it.
Unfortunately the attorney costs money but sometimes it's not near as much as you'd expect.
be careful of posting pics of the rifle at this time. Since you still have a chance of the manufacturer taking care of you, the last thing you want to do is to give them a reason to say go jump in a lake.
I bet the guys at nightforce would help you get into another scope at a more than fair price if you played your cards right.
We all want to know with absolute certainty what caused this. We all have our hypotheses, but knowing for sure would be a big help.
Its time to start counting your blessings and getting back into another stick asap, though.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
We all want to know with absolute certainty what caused this. We all have our hypotheses, but knowing for sure would be a big help.
Its time to start counting your blessings and getting back into another stick asap, though.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Ive been talking to nightforce, but I already have NF scopes on my other rifles (bought two after this happened and sold the other stuff). I have a Savage FCP HS precision 308, and two Sig 716s I shoot out to 1,000m... our 1500m steel disappeared, but according to the ballistics program, 98 MOA of adjustment will get me there with 175 gr GMM on the Savage, so I just need to go find it and put it back up to see if I can really get the shots there. 1000m is quite boring with that gun because its so consistent, but I miss having a cannon and lobbing 250 grain projectiles much further! If I get a new rifle from these guys, im going to try out the Nightforce ATACR scope, if not, then I need to save for a while and figure out what the next gun will be, or sell a few guns for a new project.
Last edited:
Here is whats left of the Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56. It was mounted down with the Nightforce ultra lite titanium rings, and the force from the rifle blew the scope literally 40 yards away, still with the base attached to it. Its a true testament to the strength not only of their scopes, but also the rings which were still firmly held to the rail and the scope. of the 3 people that inspected this rifle, all 3 agreed the only reason im alive or at least not disfigured is because the scope caught all of the blast and held everything that came out of that chamber instead of distributing it into my face. I ended up with a few scratches and had to check my shorts, but it could have been a lot worse, and thankfully I had on eye protection and inner and outer ears. Ive since bought a couple other NF scopes and will stay true to their stuff on all of my rifles
Attachments
Wow! That's killer...
I have the savage fcp HS also, but it's being reborn, so to speak. I have a spare action that i sent to Phoenix custom rifles (up your way)along with a Krieger barrel. By the time it's done it'll hardly look like a savage. No more barrel nut, and i made my own bolt and swept it back a bit, more like a Remmy. The stock is already quite a bit modified and painted:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
I have the savage fcp HS also, but it's being reborn, so to speak. I have a spare action that i sent to Phoenix custom rifles (up your way)along with a Krieger barrel. By the time it's done it'll hardly look like a savage. No more barrel nut, and i made my own bolt and swept it back a bit, more like a Remmy. The stock is already quite a bit modified and painted:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Attachments
Looking at the pics of the scope, it looks like whatever happened took place pretty far forward in the chamber, as the damage is way up on the scope. I know there has been some speculation about the powder, and I agree the pics of the powder look suspect. I am guessing that there was a huge pressure spike right at the lands.
Thats pretty slick! I found mine with the 5R barrel so I got it just as a fun shooter for when I dont feel like waking up with a sore shoulder from the Lapua. I didnt plan on modifying it other than the muzzle brake, although it was pictured with the HS stock I wanted, and came with the same one the 700P has. Once ATF times come down a bit, im going to get a couple suppressors... my shooting buddies all hate me because everything I own has a brake on it and makes lots of noise! If youre ever up here, PM me, we have a private setup with steel from 100m to 2,000m (other than the 1500m that either got knocked over or stolen)
I've only seen a piece of fired brass like that once in my life. It too was a handload fired through a different rifle than originally loaded for. In that instance we had ten more loaded rounds. We pulled the bullets and measured everything. Came to the conclusion that the brass was too long(but still within spec)for the rifle's chamber. The blown up rifle had a tight chamber with a short leade custom contoured for lighter bullets. The brass of the loaded ammunition was actually jammed into the rifling...upon primer ignition the pressure spiked because the case was actually jammed into the throat...not just the projectile but the actuall brass itself. The piece of brass I type about looked almost exactly like your picture. Like others have said...glad you are ok
Last edited:
More evidence that the base screws/threads are the weak point of most scope mounting systems.
That scope looks brutal....
-matt
Fenix, thanks for showing the scope. Makes me even happier to have bought a NF 8-32X56 NPR1 for my rifle. If you get the new reticle, I'd love to hear how you like it.
If what you described is indeed what happened, wouldn't the shooter feel the hesitation of the bolt closing? The purpose of me asking this isn't to point fingers but to help prevent this from ever happening to myself. I have used reloads from others and had no idea that this could happen. This site still amazes me of how much great information it provides.
I won't even purchase a box of bullets if the seal has been cut. Too many bad outcomes like this. If this is load related.
Ditto on information you can obtain on this site.
Ditto on information you can obtain on this site.
Last edited:
Most likely you wouldn't feel the brass enter the leade because of the gradual taper that makes up the leade. Once the bolt lugs make contact with the receiver the few thousandths of brass that gets crushed into the rifling/leade won't be noticable because of the considerable force needed to lock the bolt closed<<<pertains to all bolt actions too
Similar threads
