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Rifle Scopes How do YOU level your optic?

C

chuckshoots

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 31, 2012
21
0
Berkeley, CA
Hey Guys,

I got some wheeler levels for leveling my optic with my action and, well, it is a bit odd. I thought it was pretty good before and now when I have a level on the action rails and one on top of the top turret and they match up, the reticle looks totally cockeyed when you look through the optic. I am curious how you guys get your optic level so I can give that a shot. My rifle is a rem 700 SPS-varmint 308 with a NF NXS 3.5-15X50 F1.

thanks

chuck
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter so much that the optic and rifle are leveled together, just that when you fire, it's important that your optic is level. The bullet will always fall toward the center of the earth, so as long as your reticle is level when you fire, you should be good to go.

Some people go so far as to mount their optic at an angle so that when they shoulder their rifle the optic is level (and the rifle is cocked at an angle).
 
I install a us optics level on the rail, I draw a 48" line on a target at 100 yards and make it level or plumb then while making sure the rail level is dead nuts I turn the scope until the reticle aligns with the plumb line on the target. And if its a new scope I'll shoot three shot groups up the line at 3-6 and 9 mil and check for vertical tracking and spacing between groups, 10.75 between groups and from zero point of aim 32.4".
 
jonesy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter so much that the optic and rifle are leveled together, just that when you fire, it's important that your optic is level. The bullet will always fall toward the center of the earth, so as long as your reticle is level when you fire, you should be good to go.

Some people go so far as to mount their optic at an angle so that when they shoulder their rifle the optic is level (and the rifle is cocked at an angle).
Click to expand...

That sounds like it causes more problems than it fixes.
 
OFIS said:
That sounds like it causes more problems than it fixes.
Click to expand...

I would agree. Works for some people apparently though. I would say just try to shoulder the rifle level. My main point was that all you really need is a level on your scope for shooting.
 
^There will be a little windage adjustment needed for that technique to zero at different distances. It may be minor.

I use a level on the rail, lock the bipod, then level the scope using an open elevation turret. I then pull back behind the rifle and verify the vertical crosshair is crossing the bore center. I then install the bubble level for an initial fit.

Out back, I create a long plumb line with a weight attached to a string. I level the scope with the bubble level, verify and adjust the bubble level until the vertical crosshair lines up exactly with the plumb line. I then recenter the crosshairs to the bottom of the plumb line and dial elevation to verify the scope tracks directly up the line.
 
I've even seen a brand new deck of playing cards used. The plumb-bob method works great too. They key is that no matter what method you use - you've got to make sure that you can replicate it in the field or on the range. That's why lots of folks use a scope mounted level, especially if you're shooting on uneven terrain.
 
This "vertical reticle instrument" is one of the best purchases I've ever made:

26175reticletool1.jpg






Details and how to use it:

Vertical Retical Instrument


It eliminates all guesswork. Worth its weight in gold in my opinion. Use this with a "plumb-bob" or anything you know is dead nuts vertical. It tells you when your optic is perfectly aligned with your bore, and when your reticle with truly level in relation to the real world. Lots of good cant information on that site as well.
 
Feeler gages.

USO rail mount level for consistency at longer ranges where it matters.
 
A deck of cards between the bottom of the turrets and the base work well if you don't have any feeler gauges around.
 
I put a small bubble level under the scope on the pic rail, against one of the rings to make sure the rifle is level, then use a plum bob (small string with roll of electrical tape tied on end to be exact) to line the reticle up vertically on the other side of the garage.

Putting a bubble level on top of your scope cap is not going to get it done accurately, because if your not perfectly 90 degrees to the rail/barrel, your not leveling properly.

There are a lot of ways to do it, but feeler gauges only work if your reticle is 100% level to the bottom of your scope, and I doubt many are. Neither of my NF NSX were. The most accurate way to do it, with common tools is described above, because after all, you want your reticle level, not your turrets or the bottom of your scope.
 
I do all mine just as Hasgun Willtravel described... I want the reticle level... Then, of course, run a tracking drill on a trued target...
 
Feeler gauges or playing cards. I've found stacking them just a bit high (.01") so the scope wobbles a bit between front and rear ring helps ensure it's level. Once one ring is tightened enough to avoid slippage you can just pull the stack out and tighten the rings.
 
Feeler gauges... simple easy and the best way to level the scope to the action.

I have done easily 30 scopes this way and they all have come up perfect when I check them with levels, lines, and box/tracking tests.
 
DFOOSKING said:
Have you tried it?

You are addressing the rifle as consistently as your individual body shape will allow, then plumbing the reticle to the fall of gravity.

For some people that may do little to alter the scope/rifle orientation.... other people, more drastic.

The idea is your not fighting the rifle for NPOA. And if the trajectory is up/down and the reticle is true up and down....what's the issue?

The key is to have reticle level consistently when you pull the trigger.

Throw a level on your scope if you want.
Click to expand...

I have tried it, unintentionally. Watched as my misses got exponentially greater with distance.

Thats why they make adjustable stocks, because it is the stock's job to fit your body for NPA. It is the scope's job to line up a magnified picture of the target with the path of a projectile that shows you where that projectile will intersect a given point.

If that point on glass is adjusted at any axis other than vertical to the bore, your scope is not doing its job to the best of its ability.

Forget holdovers by the way if your bullet drop doesn't line up with the bottom half of your reticle.

If you are shooting one fixed distance NRA style, you could mount the scope any way but backwards as long as it can adjust to intersect the path of the bullet.
 
chuckshoots said:
Hey Guys,

I got some wheeler levels for leveling my optic with my action and, well, it is a bit odd. I thought it was pretty good before and now when I have a level on the action rails and one on top of the top turret and they match up, the reticle looks totally cockeyed when you look through the optic. I am curious how you guys get your optic level so I can give that a shot. My rifle is a rem 700 SPS-varmint 308 with a NF NXS 3.5-15X50 F1.

thanks

chuck
Click to expand...

I always start with the feeler gauges where the optic design and mounting arrangement allows (this does not work on 11mm tip off mounts for instance.) I do this as much to make sure that the reticle is not canted relative to the adjustments as I do to level the reticle. Reticles being canted is not uncommon. I do this feeler gauge method a little different than most folks. I like to set the thickness to just enough less than the gap to be able to see a thin slit of light rather than having the gauges butt up to the scope bottom. I feel like this gives me more precision and allows me to verify, as I tighten, that the optic it is not being canted by the tightening of the screws (tightening a scope down with feeler gauges butting up against the bottom of its saddle section is a bad idea). When I finish tightening the screws I will shoulder the rifle to see if it feels right. I will also dial the scope power down to min, pull my head back off the scope and look though it such that I can see if the reticle appears to be pointing straight down through the action. If all is well I am done. If not, or the arrangement does not allow for feeler gauges, I will mount freehand.

What I call mounting free hand involves looking through the scope at low power with my head well back of optimal eye relief to judge whether or not the vertical reticle line is pointed straight through the center of the action. This type of mounting also involves getting behind the rifle in normal shooting position and judging if it feels natural. While mounting the scope in this way I have my rifle wedged in my bulls bag and on a table so that I can get behind it in normal bench-rest fashion. At some point in the turn a little this way, whups to much, turn a little back process I will find a place where it feels right looking though the scope while behind the rifle in normal fashion and where the vertical reticle line also appears to bisect the action and I will carefully tighten things down as evenly as possible. Mounting freehand usually take me 10-15 min because I futz with it a bit more than is probably necessary.

You may note that I do not use plumb bobs or levels in any way during mounting. I have not found plumb bobs to be of particular help though I don't think they are a hindrance either and sometimes when I am looking though the scope testing the feel I will look at the flagpole behind my house. I don't think it matters one way or another. I think that levels are a waste of time when mounting a scope. When I was mounting one of my first scopes I put a level on the rail and a plumb bob down range. The damn thing just felt crooked when I was done and when I pulled my head back it was apparent that the reticle was not bisecting the action. I have not found the read out from a level to be accurate enough to be of any help.

I think the bottom line thing to keep in mind when leveling a scope is that it foremost must feel correct to you or it will drive you nuts. Gauges, levels, and plumb bobs really can't tell you this and even if the scopes level was to be a little off relative to say, the rail, it would not matter. You need the scope to stay level to the target when you are shooting. It does not really matter whether it is level to the rifle stock or rail.

Hope that all helps.
 
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OFIS said:
I have tried it, unintentionally. Watched as my misses got exponentially greater with distance.

Thats why they make adjustable stocks, because it is the stock's job to fit your body for NPA. It is the scope's job to line up a magnified picture of the target with the path of a projectile that shows you where that projectile will intersect a given point.

If that point on glass is adjusted at any axis other than vertical to the bore, your scope is not doing its job to the best of its ability.

Forget holdovers by the way if your bullet drop doesn't line up with the bottom half of your reticle.

If you are shooting one fixed distance NRA style, you could mount the scope any way but backwards as long as it can adjust to intersect the path of the bullet.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this and I call bullshit here.

First of all, it's linearly, not exponentially.

Secondly, here's some math: If I give you 1.75" scope height, 15 degree cant in your optic (which is extremely noticeable), and a 100 yard zero, your miss at 1000 yards would be 4.1", or just over 0.4 MOA.

Now, what do you think is more likely to be the problem: your rifle and scope not being respectively level, or your wind reading? For the sake of being conservative, I gave you 15 degrees, 1.75" scope height, and a 100 yard zero.

Here are some more realistic numbers: 1.25" scope height, 5 degree cant, and 300 yard zero. What is your miss at 1000 yards with these parameters? You'd be hitting 0.25" to one side. The side you hit depends on which way your scope is canted.

Bottom line here: Unless you royally fuck up mounting your optic (pretty easy to mount within 5-10 degrees level), you're not going to be able to shoot the difference between the fudge in your holdovers, so there's really no need to even use a level when mounting your optic.
 
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I agree with jonesy and dfoosking. My scope is purposely mounted canted with the top of the reticle a couple degrees clockwise. The feel of the rifle is more ergonomic. The reticle being level with the world is what matters when shooting at varying distances. The most accurate wind call you can make, compiled with how perfectly level you can get your optic (without a mounted level), and spin drift add up to being much more of a variable than the cant in a scope. For example a 175 grain SMK @ 2550 fps shooting at 1000 yards spin drift would be approximately 10" and a 1mph wind would be roughly 8" making for a total error there of 18". Based on jonesy's math and other factors not mentioned here it appears there is more error elsewhere than in the cant of a reticle. But I'm just a new guy and I welcome the knowledge of others.
 
I used feeler gauges to get it leveled to my rifle... I then setup a plumb bob somewhere in the distance, setup my rifle so my scope reticle is aligned to the plumb bob... set my bubble level on my scope to be level... then I'm done.

My reticle will always be level to the world as long as the bubble says it's level. I place the level above left of the scope so if I look through the scope with both eyes open (right eye dominant), my brain superimposes an image of the bubble level into the actual scope so I can watch my target and see a semi blurry version of the bubble level at the same time.
 
Feeler gauges, deck of cards.....both allow you to place an adjustable "spacer" between the top of your base and bottom of the turret housing. The trick is to get the feeler gauges flat on the base and the turret housing flat on top of the gauges.

Feeler gauges allow for a height adjustment of as little as 0.001" (0.0005" if yours has the 0.0015" leaf). The cards not as fine, but usable.

If you do not have a flat base the feeler gauges won't work.

OFG
 
Feeler gauges and forget about it. I was debating what I would do when my SS 1-6 finally showed up. It has flat base and I knew I had my old set of feelers. Used a stack, called it good, done. Why complicate things?
 
ScottyD said:
This "vertical reticle instrument" is one of the best purchases I've ever made:

26175reticletool1.jpg






Details and how to use it:

Vertical Retical Instrument


It eliminates all guesswork. Worth its weight in gold in my opinion. Use this with a "plumb-bob" or anything you know is dead nuts vertical. It tells you when your optic is perfectly aligned with your bore, and when your reticle with truly level in relation to the real world. Lots of good cant information on that site as well.
Click to expand...

That's what I use too. Before I blaimed slight cant on windage call errors, etc. Even with a feeler gauge I was not getting it perfectly level. Reticle, scope, rings, base, bore, etc...lots of variables.
 
Diver160651 said:
Arn't barrel bores round? Does the bore really know or care what level is as long as it lets them co the same orientation each time?
Click to expand...

Not sure if this is true of not but I was told that barrels are angled slightly upwards and that's why there a rise in the trajectory before it starts to drop. Otherwise it would start descending the instant it leaves the barrel.
 
Hey guys, first post. I was really looking forward to using the wedge to level the new PM11 in my new SPUHR, but the parallax knob means you can't get the wedge in. Not happy - back to the cards!
 
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