Just had some time, and have been "reading the posts". My favorite AR, is a Rock river,LAR-15 5.56, with a 4X Acog, on it. Understand, I'm an "old guy", and not into the competition or "add on " stuff. She's just a "fun gun to go shoot". Am I behind the times? Should I tuck my tail, and be happy. I'm not attracted to lasers or flashlights. Vertical front grips turn me off. Don't like the cheese cutter{hurts my hands} picitany fronts. I've posted stuff, on this site, with my "opinion", and gotten some "negative" responses. That's OK. But... Is all this stuff the Current Attitude, for AR's, or can a guy shoot a "basic gun", and be happy here?
- Thread starter JoshcBoucher
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It's the ACOG that makes the gun.. those things are awesome. Makes any AR awesome.
Josh,
I like bare bones with an ACOG. However, since I use night vision, I have to have rails, but I don't like quad rails. Also I like free floated hg's that are at least 12". This gives me a more stable shooting platform, and if your arm is extended past carbine, it will be easier to transition laterally between targets. My solution is to save up $40 and make a lightweight carbon fiber hand guard that has rails only where I need them.
Add a lightweight free float to your set up, and in my opinion, it will be hard to beat for most uses.
Here's a link to a thread explaining how I make my hand guards. If you want to make one, I'll give you a few extra pointers.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-d-i-y/193069-diy-ar-15-free-float-hgs.html
I like bare bones with an ACOG. However, since I use night vision, I have to have rails, but I don't like quad rails. Also I like free floated hg's that are at least 12". This gives me a more stable shooting platform, and if your arm is extended past carbine, it will be easier to transition laterally between targets. My solution is to save up $40 and make a lightweight carbon fiber hand guard that has rails only where I need them.
Add a lightweight free float to your set up, and in my opinion, it will be hard to beat for most uses.
Here's a link to a thread explaining how I make my hand guards. If you want to make one, I'll give you a few extra pointers.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-d-i-y/193069-diy-ar-15-free-float-hgs.html
I'll "give ya the top rail". There's a big plus, for that, for your reasons. And a good trigger. But all this other "stuff", takes away from "shooting". I was reading another thread, and a guy "sterling shooter", I think his name was, changed my thoughts, about "getting upgrades", and adding on. I thought I was "in the woods", and behind the times. I've been working on shooting. Thought the "answer", might be add ons. Now I'm thinking it's better ,to go back to basics. Plain shooting, and plain "knowledge". I see a lot of Movement to add ons, in the "club", as the answer to "great shooting". A lot of guys 'head that way". The guy[Sterling} had a "good point", I think we all should consider.
why do you care what other people add to there rifles? an ar15 is no different than a pick-up truck , some people need a ladder rack others need side boards to haul hogs. some need a flat bed and others are content to just have an 8ft bed that works well for most needs. if your happy with your rifle the way it is dont worry about the latest mall ninja fad . just shoot and be happy.
I have a colt 6940 with a ta31f acog and it is by far the most used rifle in my safe.
I have a colt 6940 with a ta31f acog and it is by far the most used rifle in my safe.
I also think the add-ons don't add anything to enhance the accuracy of the rifle. IMO they have their place for the folks that really need them to accomplish a particular mission. I agree the picatinny rails are hand biters so any of my AR's that have them rail ladder covers were added except were needed for sling adapters. I also do not care for the vertical grips although they might help in off hand shooting. Since most of my shooting is not off hand but off a bench they just get in my way. I believe in the kiss principle when it comes to add-ons. The top long rail however I find very useful when mounting some of my longer scopes like my NF NXS's. They make it much easier to get proper placement for optimal eye relief. JMO
It is a tool, and it is a very adaptable tool at that, so much so I have more than a few. Set it up how it works for you. The simpler the better for sure, but if you need the rail it is indispensable. Having used it a lot, I kind of know what to do with it and how to make it work for me. I guess I'm a fan of the rails and add on junk, guilty as charged. But I do find the KAC rails, whether you use them or just cover them all up, and FF or not (but if you spend the money, just get the FF) are much more stable than the regular plastic handguards that move around. They vent heat better too, FF will tighten your groups, and with all four long rail panels clipped in, it is just a regular handguard with future potential should you need a bipod, etc.
Personally, I prefer my basic go-to M4 to be setup a lot like I had it in the army but with some minor tweaks, with ACOG, KAC rail and rear 600m flip (fixed front) surefire grip light, sling stud, PEQ, AAC suppressor mount, and a grip with an extra bolt and pin in it and the SOPMOD stock full of batteries and other small parts for the rifle. This is comfortable, familiar for me, and the only one I have fully decked out. But I also have training with and know how to use all this stuff and make it work for me. I kept a bipod on mine in the army most of the time, but I have others more suited for longer range shooting now. My wife has an M4 exactly like mine but with just the EOTech and a grip and a sling with an old Surefire weapon light mounted way out front on the side, the rest is covered up so you can still hold it normally. That's how she likes it, that's the limit of what she needs and for next to the bed, what else DOES she need?
On my shooters, they still have KAC rails, but FF, and they are mostly covered up too except for the spot for the sling stud and the bipod mount. One even has a 1907 sling along with a USO SN3, but short of that, it is a plain 20" A4 style 6.5mm Grendel (but with really good guts inside).
So to each his own... But nobody should be giving you shit for choosing a simple weapon. Everyone has personal preferences, and a weapon is a serious item, it is what you defend yourself with. So if your training and comfort lies with a light, plain AR with just the ACOG, then so be it. If you feel more comfortable adding weight in order to get other tools that you have trained with that make you feel more comfortable, well, then so be it too.
Don't feel compelled to add shit on. If you don't feel the need to, then it is likely you don't need it in the first place. Never trained with it, no need for it, all it will do is make your rifle feel foreign and unfamiliar.
Some people criticize for the sake of criticizing someone, and non-constructively at that, the worst kind, "you should have done this instead" or "that looks tacticool/you're a mall ninja" or "I can't see the point of this or that". That is all garbage. Constructive criticism might be to discuss the application and use of an item so as to suggest a better alternative. Such as what I mentioned in the first paragraph. Know to look for the difference if other's opinions bother you.
Anyone giving you shit because you don't have rails and add-ons likely is from the mall ninja mindset. You don't want to take advice from a mall ninja do you? Didn't think so.
And look at what the Marines use: M16A4 with no intention on changing. Most have rails covered up, with ACOGs, some have the Harris bipod, very few have grips from pictures I've seen. Most use them just for the bipod or the laser it seems, if they have one. Simple seems to be working for them. Granted they have the rails, but like I said, they can offer a good stable handguard covered up (and potential should you need them) if you don't need the rails.
Personally, I prefer my basic go-to M4 to be setup a lot like I had it in the army but with some minor tweaks, with ACOG, KAC rail and rear 600m flip (fixed front) surefire grip light, sling stud, PEQ, AAC suppressor mount, and a grip with an extra bolt and pin in it and the SOPMOD stock full of batteries and other small parts for the rifle. This is comfortable, familiar for me, and the only one I have fully decked out. But I also have training with and know how to use all this stuff and make it work for me. I kept a bipod on mine in the army most of the time, but I have others more suited for longer range shooting now. My wife has an M4 exactly like mine but with just the EOTech and a grip and a sling with an old Surefire weapon light mounted way out front on the side, the rest is covered up so you can still hold it normally. That's how she likes it, that's the limit of what she needs and for next to the bed, what else DOES she need?
On my shooters, they still have KAC rails, but FF, and they are mostly covered up too except for the spot for the sling stud and the bipod mount. One even has a 1907 sling along with a USO SN3, but short of that, it is a plain 20" A4 style 6.5mm Grendel (but with really good guts inside).
So to each his own... But nobody should be giving you shit for choosing a simple weapon. Everyone has personal preferences, and a weapon is a serious item, it is what you defend yourself with. So if your training and comfort lies with a light, plain AR with just the ACOG, then so be it. If you feel more comfortable adding weight in order to get other tools that you have trained with that make you feel more comfortable, well, then so be it too.
Don't feel compelled to add shit on. If you don't feel the need to, then it is likely you don't need it in the first place. Never trained with it, no need for it, all it will do is make your rifle feel foreign and unfamiliar.
Some people criticize for the sake of criticizing someone, and non-constructively at that, the worst kind, "you should have done this instead" or "that looks tacticool/you're a mall ninja" or "I can't see the point of this or that". That is all garbage. Constructive criticism might be to discuss the application and use of an item so as to suggest a better alternative. Such as what I mentioned in the first paragraph. Know to look for the difference if other's opinions bother you.
Anyone giving you shit because you don't have rails and add-ons likely is from the mall ninja mindset. You don't want to take advice from a mall ninja do you? Didn't think so.
And look at what the Marines use: M16A4 with no intention on changing. Most have rails covered up, with ACOGs, some have the Harris bipod, very few have grips from pictures I've seen. Most use them just for the bipod or the laser it seems, if they have one. Simple seems to be working for them. Granted they have the rails, but like I said, they can offer a good stable handguard covered up (and potential should you need them) if you don't need the rails.
Shucks, you have already upgraded with that ACOG In my book! My two simplest AR's are iron sighted; 16” and 20”, both with std handguards
---16 with Troy folders and the 20 with carry handle fixed sights. For me upgrades are the T-1, Eotech, or ACOG with a top rail handguard. All
optical sights, lasers, bipods and such are on quik-release mts. for when ya want 'em. For fun try shooting rabbits on the run---thus far the Eotech has given me the highest hit %. When you can hit a rabbit or jackrabbit on the run, a wild boar or coyote is much easier! You may also
want to try a good .22LR conversion unit. The young kids love shooting the .22 and it can be loads of fun as a training tool for new shooters who
are intimidated by media reports on the 'evil' blk rifles.
---16 with Troy folders and the 20 with carry handle fixed sights. For me upgrades are the T-1, Eotech, or ACOG with a top rail handguard. All
optical sights, lasers, bipods and such are on quik-release mts. for when ya want 'em. For fun try shooting rabbits on the run---thus far the Eotech has given me the highest hit %. When you can hit a rabbit or jackrabbit on the run, a wild boar or coyote is much easier! You may also
want to try a good .22LR conversion unit. The young kids love shooting the .22 and it can be loads of fun as a training tool for new shooters who
are intimidated by media reports on the 'evil' blk rifles.
Thanks for the replies. I've "taken some crap", from the kids, about how I like my old "brick" cell phone, instead of the new ones. I've been on the range, and gotten the sneers, from the "mall Ninjas", with their tricked out guns. Makes no never mind ,to me. What I don't have , is military /law enforcement experience. I "look" to those guys, for the real advice. It's hard to filter who's who, here. I've had a gun, in my hands, since I was 7-8 yrs old. Country "farm raised", for most of my life. Shooting was as natural, as goin to school. I used to be "real good", with my BB gun, or .22. Could take a crow, off the power lines, at 50 ft, on a snap shot, with out sights. I'm trying to "get back ", there, with an AR. I'm retired, and have the time and money to spend practicing. I guess I'm stuck with the limitations of gettin old. Maybe I don't have the skill/reactions/eyesight, I had, back then, and maybe "that's that". Some times I think the "add ons" may help. Just been "wondering" what the "experienced guys" think. I've gotten "bit", by the long range bug, and do that a lot, but I still like to shoot the Ar, for fun, at 25- 50-100 yds, and keep my skills for snap shooting honed, for all the obvious reasons. Figured I'd throw it out there, and see what you guys thought.
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It's all about proficiency.
I wouldn't doubt you outshoot the majority of knuckleheads who show up at the range with a dozen gadgets hung on to their gun who have never shot past 100 yards, ever.
There are highpower service rifle shooters all over the country who every weekend shoot a (to all outside appearances) standard M16A2 (or semi AR) with a primitive GI M1917 leather sling -- standing, sitting, and prone, to 600 yards...with iron sights.
Shoot the gun, shoot it a lot, be happy.
Some folks would benefit from using the money they spent on gadgets on ammo and targets.
I wouldn't doubt you outshoot the majority of knuckleheads who show up at the range with a dozen gadgets hung on to their gun who have never shot past 100 yards, ever.
There are highpower service rifle shooters all over the country who every weekend shoot a (to all outside appearances) standard M16A2 (or semi AR) with a primitive GI M1917 leather sling -- standing, sitting, and prone, to 600 yards...with iron sights.
Shoot the gun, shoot it a lot, be happy.
Some folks would benefit from using the money they spent on gadgets on ammo and targets.
I Do better than most, But I "learned a lesson", from an old Marine, and his iron sighted M1A socom, that he was shooting next me, and my 16X scoped M1A . Which is why I was humbled, and continue to ask questions, and practice.
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It's all about proficiency.
I wouldn't doubt you outshoot the majority of knuckleheads who show up at the range with a dozen gadgets hung on to their gun who have never shot past 100 yards, ever.
There are highpower service rifle shooters all over the country who every weekend shoot a (to all outside appearances) standard M16A2 (or semi AR) with a primitive GI M1917 leather sling -- standing, sitting, and prone, to 600 yards...with iron sights.
Shoot the gun, shoot it a lot, be happy.
Some folks would benefit from using the money they spent on gadgets on ammo and targets.
Sinister knows which hog ate the cabbage. I will add that it seems most folks want to "doctor-up" their AR's not having a clue about the benefit their part/s substitution will provide. It seems to be a monkey see, monkey do sort of thing. The desire to replace the factory pistol grip or butt stock seem particularly suspect. At any rate, what I see most often are folks who want to replace their BDC detachable carry handle with some sort of a dot sight, when, with a little instruction, they might find the BDC to be more compelling. Of course, if there is no interest in learning how to shoot the AR, or if the monkey already thinks he knows how to shoot, the dot sight may be exactly what the monkey needs.
BTW, I really do find the TA31F ACOG to be an awesome sight for a multitude of reasons. I think it's range finding/bullet drop compensating reticle is a godsend to any who need good quick hits on mid range targets.
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Thanks, to Sterling shooter, for chiming in.Going from "Iron sights, to the ACOG" felt like an " old guys answer", to the sighting issue. I'd rather be on iron sights. But "these days", a target, at 50 yds. is fuzzy. Glasses don't work, for me.The ACOG is nice, for a crutch. Seems I need a crutch. Gettin old, ain't for sissies. I can still hold my own.
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I'm no longer an ACOG guy - as you can get a lot better optics these days for cheaper (by better I really mean better, ACOG's have some major parallax issues, so using them with NV in front is not great, the BCD is load and climate specific, and the 4x ones have crappy eye relief).
However all that said - you have it - and since you have it your going to be a lot better off shooting it, than wasting ammo money on a new setup.
However all that said - you have it - and since you have it your going to be a lot better off shooting it, than wasting ammo money on a new setup.
Yep I have a TA01 ACOG on my M4!
Anyone can flame me, but irons are inferior. Anyone who says otherwise has not used an aim point or acog in combat. I want every edge over my adversary that I can get, whether it's a hadji, left wing extremist, or a menacing steel gong.
If you want every edge then learn how to use irons. There's nothing inferior about them, they serve to understand where the barrel is pointed actually better than the Aimpoint or ACOG just using the brain's natural ability to balance and center things. Thing is, most folks do not understand how to properly point the rifle using consistent sight alignment. They don't know how assure a consistent sight picture. These folks use the Aimpoint and ACOG as substitutes for marksmanship. That's to say, it is the shooter who is inferior, not the iron sights. No doubt though, the Aimpoint and ACOG are godsends; and, with mastery of marksmanship, all of these devices have a place.
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Way back in 1976, when I got my first AR, I couldn't believe how accurate it was, with plain iron sights. We shot snapping turtles, off the pond, at 100 yds. I was 19 yrs. old, then, with great eyesight. It's still one of the "most accurate, out of the box" guns you can buy. If I could still "see", I'd stick with the iron sights. What a great rifle. Getting better, at "snap shooting", where ya pull the gun up, and shoot, without "aquiring the target", in the sights. Just plain muscle memory, like the handguns. I'm inside 18 inches, at 50 yds., right now, with 60% of my shots. would like to be inside 10. Working on it. It takes practice. Samurai stuff. The gun has to become a "part of you".This is what I'm working on, right now. Boy, does it burn up the ammo. I'm sure the younger guys do a lot better.
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There's a comment from a Vietnam Vet, that has a great "resonance", along with sterling shooter,and Delta 4-3. I think they all have a solid, good approach. The "theater", rules, as to add ons. Good, basic "gun handling". and "iron sight" shooting, are KEY. Knowledge of the scopes, and their use, in different situations, is the "next step".Being able to "go" to irons, is critical. Being able to use scopes, for short distances, and long distances, and transition to any situation, is critical. Becoming "one with the gun", is the trait I'm after.I "guess" i'm trying to get the thought "out there", for the general audience. I appreciate the input from the "guys that know", and the knowledge that can be passed on, to "us that don't." I think that focusing on add ons, is wrong, and I guess i'm fighting that trend, with this thread. On we go.
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A low power scope is just damn good on a combat rifle for everything but building clearing. We only had M16A2's when I was in for the most part. Yes I could shoot expert on the range but it was always a running joke that I wished I had my deer rifle. My theory was that one clean shot was all you needed with it at any exposed body part. Sure irons are great for most stuff and covering fire, but you're not going to consistently zap somebody's exposed hand or foot at 100 or 200 yards with irons.
I was like "thank god" when they finally re-issued the M14s with scopes.
I was like "thank god" when they finally re-issued the M14s with scopes.
I disagree, I don't want ACOG's or Aim Points (or any other glass) in combat. I can use irons and they are more durable.
This is just silly..... Have you been in combat?
Tapatalk2
No I got my CIB out of a cracker jacks box..............................that is if you know what a CIB is.
Do a little search on South Vietnam then come back and tell me the conditions don't resemble that picture, then tell me it's silly.
Why not, just learn to shoot the gun. The M16a1/a2 is capable.
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Believe it or not advancements in weapons and optics improve our effectiveness. Deny it all you want while clinging to the "old days", but it has been proven time and time again. Hell let's break out the hatchets and muskets. Purely dismissing something out of ignorance offers very little credibility.
Tapatalk2
I respect your opinion on the matter KY, I think you have a good command of your AO. I can shoot irons well, and have been competing with them since single digit age, but I have found that I personally perform better with a cco of sort in urban environments and longer distances of tHe mountains.
For the record, I got hit with a seven array efp, taking shrapnel that went clean through my ESAPI and most of my body. My aim point was knocked off my m4 and the m2 was wrecked. Later, when I got rtd, we put my aim point on and it retained zero. Very impressive piece of kit.
I have been here long enough to know better than argue with Sterling Shooter or KraigWY, because those men know their shit and I have supreme respect for all they post.
I do believe there is definite merit in the SPEED of red dot sights in a hurried environment over iron sights based simply on the principal of alignment-in-movement. A red dot sight is not as particular regarding cheek weld, therefore giving leeway. An RDS requires rough eye alignment, dot on target shooting... where iron sights are more demanding on eye alignment, front-rear sight alignment, and sight-target alignment. Many cases of combat shooting is where speed per accuracy is more critical than accuracy per speed.
The merit of RDS is NOT pristine accuracy, it is speed.
Good irons are almost always more accurate than RDS. But in the situation where combat accuracy is necessary under pressure of time, there is less alignment necessary with a RDS while still giving you a consistent aiming reference.
Obviously, in certain environments, a RDS illumination is exponentially helpful as well.
I would feel comfortable framing a deck with my ACOG, remounting, and having it hold zero.
I do believe there is definite merit in the SPEED of red dot sights in a hurried environment over iron sights based simply on the principal of alignment-in-movement. A red dot sight is not as particular regarding cheek weld, therefore giving leeway. An RDS requires rough eye alignment, dot on target shooting... where iron sights are more demanding on eye alignment, front-rear sight alignment, and sight-target alignment. Many cases of combat shooting is where speed per accuracy is more critical than accuracy per speed.
The merit of RDS is NOT pristine accuracy, it is speed.
Good irons are almost always more accurate than RDS. But in the situation where combat accuracy is necessary under pressure of time, there is less alignment necessary with a RDS while still giving you a consistent aiming reference.
Obviously, in certain environments, a RDS illumination is exponentially helpful as well.
I would feel comfortable framing a deck with my ACOG, remounting, and having it hold zero.
I carry a 16" ar15 as my patrol rifle. It has a 15" free float slim midwest industries hand guard. It has backup iron sights, an eotech and a flashlight. I also added a bennie cooley compensator. The rifle is light, fast, accurate, and has minimal recoil. Working nights the flashlight and eotech make fast and positive engagements much much faster. The mission really dictates the extras on a rifle.
that being said I think that you can take a great shooter with iron sights and make him an even faster shooter with a quality red dot. You can also take a mediocre shooter, give him a red dot and make him a better shooter but it is a crutch. I went to a Paul Howe school. During the school he schooled all of us with his iron sighted Ar15. It proved to me that it can be done with practice. And if you fave Paul a red dot scope he was even faster yet. As Kraig pointed out in the picture, red dots can and will fail in some environments.
I think the most important thing is time behind the trigger and solid practice.
that being said I think that you can take a great shooter with iron sights and make him an even faster shooter with a quality red dot. You can also take a mediocre shooter, give him a red dot and make him a better shooter but it is a crutch. I went to a Paul Howe school. During the school he schooled all of us with his iron sighted Ar15. It proved to me that it can be done with practice. And if you fave Paul a red dot scope he was even faster yet. As Kraig pointed out in the picture, red dots can and will fail in some environments.
I think the most important thing is time behind the trigger and solid practice.
Any sight is only as good as the shooter is willing to learn and practice with it. In normal conditions any would work.
My point is, if you low crawling thought mud and silt, (as in the picture I posted) the crap sticks to everything, normally you can whack a rifle and the big chunks will fall off and you can use it, but with glass, aim points or what ever you have to clean off the lenses. Some times you don't have the time, or everything you have that might be used to clean off the lenses are also covered with that crap.
I like scopes, I like red dots, I like iron sights, I use all three in different situations, but if I was to go back in combat (which will never happen) I want iron sights.
My point is, if you low crawling thought mud and silt, (as in the picture I posted) the crap sticks to everything, normally you can whack a rifle and the big chunks will fall off and you can use it, but with glass, aim points or what ever you have to clean off the lenses. Some times you don't have the time, or everything you have that might be used to clean off the lenses are also covered with that crap.
I like scopes, I like red dots, I like iron sights, I use all three in different situations, but if I was to go back in combat (which will never happen) I want iron sights.
Optics can also freeze over in the winter by condensation from your breath - and light off the glistening snow can blind you quicker thru an optic.
There is a reason that BIS are issued along with Optics -- -- however MUD can just as easy clump to your sights and make then ineffective until cleaned out.
The force multiplier than optics are one is foolish to discount them. However like anything they can fail, and knowing your irons is also a skill you need.
There is a reason that BIS are issued along with Optics -- -- however MUD can just as easy clump to your sights and make then ineffective until cleaned out.
The force multiplier than optics are one is foolish to discount them. However like anything they can fail, and knowing your irons is also a skill you need.
I'm gonna listen, to all, but I think I'm gonna keep my "bottom line", with the last comment , in this post. Practice transition with "other sights" and learn the deficiencees {spell check}of all . Many situations call for different optics. Quick detach mounts, are what I use, so I can go to irons. Look at the mud, in KraigwY's post , to see what he's saying. I think "time on the gun", has no substitute. What really "rakes me", is when I read the stats of what the guys "get to shoot on the range", to practice. Most only get a few hundred rnds., per year. I shoot that in one range trip.
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RELIABLE optics have merit.
Irons do as well.
Most important is knowing your weapon, it's strengths and limitations. I was issued an ACOG back in the day. I also qualified expert numerous times with the A2 irons.
The M16A2 still holds a fond place in my memory. Possibly why I built a semi-auto clone.
Oh, and that's not just a parade sling. It's a hell of a shooting aid.
Irons do as well.
Most important is knowing your weapon, it's strengths and limitations. I was issued an ACOG back in the day. I also qualified expert numerous times with the A2 irons.
The M16A2 still holds a fond place in my memory. Possibly why I built a semi-auto clone.
Oh, and that's not just a parade sling. It's a hell of a shooting aid.
...and if you are going to mount BUIS dont buy them with the intent you will never use them and they are just to look tacticool - buy a quality set.
Im pretty happy with my KAC 200-600
Now when will the 45 offset 200-600 that Ive had on backorder with a hide vendor since January be available?
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That's a nice group, for Irons, at 100. Fast shooting?Nice to be in the zone!
I was running a LE C/S school for a little department on the west coast. They gave me some Speer 64 gr ammo that they use work with since they wanted the class geared to their existing equipment.
I shot this sitting rapid with my White Oak Service rifle. Iron sights do work and they are fast. The target is the NRA 600 yard reduced for 100 yards, look up the spacing of the scoring rings to get an ideal of the size of the group.
I shot this sitting rapid with my White Oak Service rifle. Iron sights do work and they are fast. The target is the NRA 600 yard reduced for 100 yards, look up the spacing of the scoring rings to get an ideal of the size of the group.
YA see! There it is. Some "old guy" comes in, with his group, and we all go to the fence. I'm going to "take a poop", then I'm coming back withAMB YOU "OLD GUYS" makes me feel like a pup.Shoot a string like that! F U., and , I'm in awe. Keep shooting. I'll keep watching. It "pisses me off", but that's just me.I'm a tight ass. I can't shoot, like you do. I I 'can't do what you do", Old guy's suck! They make me feel stupid! Hat's off, to ya. I'll keep trying. Thanks for the "input".What I "really want to say", is Thanks. I'll do better.PS: I do like older guys, U just ......................Make me shoot better..............., And "suck", in the process". cause I'm using up ammo. Keep 'em coming. I like to learn.
AMB YOU "OLD GUYS" makes me feel like a pup.Shoot a string like that! F U., and , I'm in awe. Keep shooting. I'll keep watching. It "pisses me off", but that's just me.I'm a tight ass. I can't shoot, like you do. I I 'can't do what you do", Old guy's suck! They make me feel stupid! Hat's off, to ya. I'll keep trying. Thanks for the "input".What I "really want to say", is Thanks. I'll do better.PS: I do like older guys, U just ......................Make me shoot better..............., And "suck", in the process". cause I'm using up ammo. Keep 'em coming. I like to learn.
I like irons but then I have really good eye sight (at least in my shooting eye).
Generally, the finer sights with a longer radius and more adjustment will be more accurate but really any sight that holds zero can be very effective. People poo-poo cheap ones like magpuls because they don't have elevation adjustment in the rear and large apertures but really, with a 25 yard zero and a 6 o'clock hold they can work very well.
Generally, the finer sights with a longer radius and more adjustment will be more accurate but really any sight that holds zero can be very effective. People poo-poo cheap ones like magpuls because they don't have elevation adjustment in the rear and large apertures but really, with a 25 yard zero and a 6 o'clock hold they can work very well.
Being that is a Army SR target reduced for use at 100 and I shot it off a bench/bag it really isnt anything to boast about but it made me happy. The firing rate was two mags of ten probably at the rate I should shoot rapid fire but really much slower than I do when the clock is ticking.
What I am discovering is that my 45 yo eyes are failing me. I wear a weak prescription for distance while working. At the pistol range, not wearing glasses, I can see my sights great and there is enough target to see that I can group.
With the rifle though, no glasses I see the sights fine but the aiming black is a gray smudge. With glasses I see the target but my front sight gets fuzzy.
The problem with the gun hobby is that when young with good eyes I didnt have the money to get geared up. Now with the money to buy great gear my eyes cant take full advantage.
Bring on the scopes.
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If I had to "run" and shoot, I'd be dead. 40 yrs. a smoker. If I had to run, more than a couple hundred yds. I'd be coughing up a lung.Maybe I need those "nitro pills". Where do ya get em? Like my mother in law, used to say: Gettin old ain't for sissies!
Wait 10 yrs, then "see" what happens. 32X scopes are nice. At least I shot enough' pistols" that muscle memory, puts em "in the black", most of the time. Leave the glasses, at home. That's what I tell my "Buds", when I'm at the range. Damn. Forgot my glasses!QUOTE=pmclaine;2572757]Being that is a Army SR target reduced for use at 100 it really isnt anything to boast about but it made me happy. The firing rate was two mags of ten probably at the rate I should shoot rapid fire butWait 10 really much slower than I do when the clock is ticking. I also had the benefit of a bench to shoot from.
What I am discovering is that my 45 yo eyes are failing me. I wear a weak prescription for distance while working. At the pistol range, not wearing glasses, I can see my sights great and there is enough target to see that I can group.
With the rifle though, no glasses I see the sights fine but the aiming black is a gray smudge. With glasses I see the target but my front sight gets fuzzy.
The problem with the gun hobby is that when young with good eyes I didnt have the money to get geared up. Now with the money to buy great gear my eyes cant take full advantage.
Bring on the scopes.[/QUOTE]
What I am discovering is that my 45 yo eyes are failing me. I wear a weak prescription for distance while working. At the pistol range, not wearing glasses, I can see my sights great and there is enough target to see that I can group.
With the rifle though, no glasses I see the sights fine but the aiming black is a gray smudge. With glasses I see the target but my front sight gets fuzzy.
The problem with the gun hobby is that when young with good eyes I didnt have the money to get geared up. Now with the money to buy great gear my eyes cant take full advantage.
Bring on the scopes.[/QUOTE]
With a small rear aperture I can focus on the front sight post of the M16 even though I am far sighted. I can not however focus on the post of a rack grade M4 so I will put a valve in its aperture to help me out. So, even having lost my vision in the left eye, I have been able to put it back together for the most part from the right shoulder. My point is do not let vision be an excuse to not hitting where aimed. Also, do not let the resolution of a scope deceive you that you know anything other than you can see better.
BTW, I got out my 308 bolt gun the other day. It is fitted with an aperture iron sight set. I have not shot the rifle in over three years. For grins and giggles I put out a 300 yard decimal target and fired a round to confirm zero. I could not see the round through my spotting scope so I fired another round. I could not see it either so I walked out to the target where I realized two bullets in the same hole about 3 minutes right and low. I went back to my firing point made an adjustment to the sight and put three more inside the 3 inch X ring. I was pleased with the result, although the 308 for some reason seems to kick a little harder than I remembered. At any rate, don't let age or vision be an excuse. Use your experience to make up when physical ability is diminished.
BTW, I got out my 308 bolt gun the other day. It is fitted with an aperture iron sight set. I have not shot the rifle in over three years. For grins and giggles I put out a 300 yard decimal target and fired a round to confirm zero. I could not see the round through my spotting scope so I fired another round. I could not see it either so I walked out to the target where I realized two bullets in the same hole about 3 minutes right and low. I went back to my firing point made an adjustment to the sight and put three more inside the 3 inch X ring. I was pleased with the result, although the 308 for some reason seems to kick a little harder than I remembered. At any rate, don't let age or vision be an excuse. Use your experience to make up when physical ability is diminished.
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I disagree, I don't want ACOG's or Aim Points (or any other glass) in combat. I can use irons and they are more durable.
I have broken the front sight on an AR before. I have never broken an Aimpoint.... Honestly, if going into combat, there is no reason not to have both.
I have 2 AR's...one with quad rail and one without. Like them both. I do like a vertical foregrip but do not have lights/lasers/etc. Like another poster said...a good optic makes the rifle for me. I have Aimpoints and love them. Shoot what you got...don't worry about what everyone else has/does. You can probably out shoot alot of the fanboys with the latest and greatest gadgets.
JoshcBoucher personally I would not worry about all the add on stuff if you do not have any need for them. Iron sights are good, ACOG's are good too,. and I like shooting both whenever I can. So far keeping a detailed data book for my AR-15 is the best thing I've done for it.
Now I have the other add on stuff like the grip bi pod & Surefire weapon light but I rarely use them. I'm getting a Surefire suppressor and a civi IR laser and maybe a helmet mounted NV setup so I can go hog hunting at night. Other than the suppressor none of that crap is going to be mounted for a casual day plinking at the range.
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I've been away from the forum for a while an just stumbled across this thread. I am in the camp of simpler is better. A good trigger and a good optic (eyes aren't what they used to be) and that is all I want. For me, other add-ons distract from the art of shooting. I've found myself drawn to shooting my Garand lately simply because it forces me to focus on marksmanship.
I don't have anything against add-ons, but have just come to realize I don't need them to have fun or shoot well.
I don't have anything against add-ons, but have just come to realize I don't need them to have fun or shoot well.
