Is Schmidt & Bender still the scope that all other scopes are measured by?
Have some new kids on the block knocked S&B off the top of the mountain?
Have some new kids on the block knocked S&B off the top of the mountain?
Rifle Scopes Is S&B still the gold standard of rifle scopes?
- Thread starter Magnumdood
- Start date
In my opinion yes, it just isn't as far ahead of the rest of the pack as they just to be. Depending on the application there may be equal or better choices but IMO there still had to beat.
Lets put it this way. If you wanted to know your money was well spent then an SnB would be your best option. That said there are other optics out there that are great but not as trusted yet.
I have owned most of the high end optics and my SnB will be the last optic I sell. It tracks perfect, the glass is crystal, and it's built like a panzer.
Kahles, Premier, Steiner close seconds.
Agree.
Sold off my USO, Nightforce's, Mark 4's and will probably sell my Steiner to run S&B's exclusively. If Hensoldt did a 34mm 5-25 it would be the only other brand I'd consider.
Thats funny as I was gonna mention Hensoldt, have never owned one, but used one for a day. Glass on those is stellar, reticle little think and the SnB MSR and P4f is preferable.
<--- been there.
SnB > Hensoldt
SnB > Hensoldt
Yep... specifcally the 5-25. Illumination, 10Y parallax and H-59 were the clinchers for me. It's the most versatile scope on the market today! Use it one day for Extreme Long range and the next day put it on a air rifle and shoot Field Target matches.
Although the line was built around and most of its products still are geared to the benchrest shooters I think the March are awfully good, I'm not sure they are quite up to the German optical quality but they have potential. The benchrest guys I know won't have any other brand. Their FFP line is small but the one I shot for a year had a lot of good qualities, I just wish they had more scope options and retical choices.
This ^^ I agree. Had 4-16x56 FFP NH1 reticle. Nice scope but much prefer my Schmidts. Having owned both I find the Schmidt vs Hensoldt re: glass quality is a wash.
Nope,
Other manufacturers have caught them. Kahles is the first that comes to mind. The only thing S&B are clinging to now are their reticles and even those are being matched (again, see the new Kahles MSR Gen2. But to say they are still ahead of everyone else is a mistake. With a blank check in hand S&B would not be my #1 pick.
Other manufacturers have caught them. Kahles is the first that comes to mind. The only thing S&B are clinging to now are their reticles and even those are being matched (again, see the new Kahles MSR Gen2. But to say they are still ahead of everyone else is a mistake. With a blank check in hand S&B would not be my #1 pick.
Interesting observations...thank you gentlemen.
Why the older ones? Warranty?
I really like the Kahles but I think an awesome combo would be a Kahles with H2CMR reticle. I really like the .2 mil sub-tensions vs .5 on the windage.
Yes as far as I am concerned it is, not that there are not others in the same stratosphere because there are.
So from what im reading here, USO is no longer in the top 3 ???
Is this the start of a optics Holocaust??
Is this the start of a optics Holocaust??
I've run many S&B's - mostly the 5x25's, and they have been close to perfect. The Premier's I have also are good, as are the USO's.
Are the S&B that you have used older models or newer (last year or two)? I only ask as I have heard that the quality has gone down hill in the last few years as Graham stated.
Both. Probably about 6-7 older and 4 newer models. I've had 1 issue with the new turret design. I spoke to Jerry at S&B, sent the scope out the same day, and had it back within a week, problem fixed. Glass and tracking is near perfect on all.
I think the answer to your question is easy. Yes, S&B is still the Gold Standard. Every new, good scope gets measured against the S&B which means its the Gold Standard.
Now there are other great scopes, and depending on your needs, some of the other scopes may be better for you than an S&B. Premier's NF, Kahles, Steiner, etc are all worth considering. But, when making their buying decision, most people will at some time ask how the scope they are considering compares to an S&B, if they are spending $2K or more.
Now there are other great scopes, and depending on your needs, some of the other scopes may be better for you than an S&B. Premier's NF, Kahles, Steiner, etc are all worth considering. But, when making their buying decision, most people will at some time ask how the scope they are considering compares to an S&B, if they are spending $2K or more.
Cool. I'm really close to getting a 5-25 with H2CMR but I keep hearing about all these quality control issue that make me a little hesitant on picking one up.
+1. SB is the gold standard.
I recently purchased a SB PM II 5-25 MTC with MSR, and it is outstanding in every way.
I recently purchased a SB PM II 5-25 MTC with MSR, and it is outstanding in every way.
That's my favorite reticle !! You'll love it.
For tactical scopes, they still seem to be, but as has been mentioned there are others that are nipping at their heels. The optical quality, durability and features gap are much smaller than they were 12 years ago. Khales and Hensoldt are easily within the optical quality range of S&B, using the 5-25x as the standard (that could all change with their upcoming High Power line). Durability is one area where I think there are several that have caught up and have equal or near equal durability. Features are another where we're now seeing scopes from other manufacturers with CCW double-turn turrets (remember getting lost on Mk4s?), zero stops and FFP reticles. It wasn't that long ago when S&B stood way out from the rest with those features. A good example is looking how Nightforce made a pretty wide switch from say 2008 to now, with single and double-turn turrets with zero stops and FFP reticles. Let alone the mil/mil and MOA/MOA issue.
I'm going to pull the trigger on a S&B 5-25x56, CCW, MTC locking turrets. One feature I really like is the single turn turret.
Being as every high end tactical scope other than an S&B ends up getting compared to an S&B, yes, it's still the gold standard.
Of those who've compared scopes side by side some give an optical edge to Premier and Hensoldt, but I don't think I've ever read a complaint about the glass in a PMII... it's so good that the slight advantage held by any other scope would provide next to no improvement in practical use.
The 2 year warranty gives me a little pause but I once had Jerry R repair a 5-25 the week before Christmas, and he busted his a$$ to get it out before the winter break so I didn't have to wait until the 2nd week in January. Top notch service from a dedicated skilled craftsman who cares about his customers. Hopefully, if he ever leaves the Virginia service center, his replacement would follow suit, but that's just my hope.
I now have a Steiner 5-25 and my first thoughts were "how does it compare to the PMII". Remarkably well was my answer. It mimics feature for feature the PMII, and certainly in this case, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I would give the S&B a slight nod in the optics department (purely from memory, so take that with a grain of salt), but not enough to practically handicap the Steiner, as it has so far been top shelf in operation
Joe
Of those who've compared scopes side by side some give an optical edge to Premier and Hensoldt, but I don't think I've ever read a complaint about the glass in a PMII... it's so good that the slight advantage held by any other scope would provide next to no improvement in practical use.
The 2 year warranty gives me a little pause but I once had Jerry R repair a 5-25 the week before Christmas, and he busted his a$$ to get it out before the winter break so I didn't have to wait until the 2nd week in January. Top notch service from a dedicated skilled craftsman who cares about his customers. Hopefully, if he ever leaves the Virginia service center, his replacement would follow suit, but that's just my hope.
I now have a Steiner 5-25 and my first thoughts were "how does it compare to the PMII". Remarkably well was my answer. It mimics feature for feature the PMII, and certainly in this case, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I would give the S&B a slight nod in the optics department (purely from memory, so take that with a grain of salt), but not enough to practically handicap the Steiner, as it has so far been top shelf in operation
Joe
I think S&B is about to enter a world of hurt with the "2 year warranty" when everyone else is "lifetime".
Here in the hide, we're aware of Jerry R and his dedication to customer service, but non hiders are probably looking at the 2 year warranty and passing up S&B for other scopes.
Here in the hide, we're aware of Jerry R and his dedication to customer service, but non hiders are probably looking at the 2 year warranty and passing up S&B for other scopes.
Yeah that is pretty crazy that one of the most expensive scopes out there has the shortest warranty. Wonder why that is. I guess they figure if it doesn't fail in the first 2 years it isn't going to fail short of negligence from the operator.
I read that it has something to do with some law in Germany. Have no idea what that has to do with the US of A though?
Yeah no kidding. This is Mercia damnit...lol
Maybe [MENTION=9253]Jerry R[/MENTION] with S&B will see this and chime in.
Yeah Jerry told me it had to do with German law and S&B Germany. At the same time I had a speck of crap inside my 3-4 year old 4-16 and he took care of me right away. I am not going to say S&B is the end all, be all BUT the majority of what I was hearing is that the MTC and locking turrets are the scopes that are going down. My 5-25 (double turn NON MTC turrets) is under 2 years old but I know as long as Jerry is behind the wheel I am covered if the scope fails due to a manufacturer defect. Everyone wants something a little different like reticles, turrets, direction of turrets, etc. I feel the S&B glass, and mechanics are up their at the top, Kahles, and US Optics also are up there, it comes down to what the buyer wants.
Must be it's the scope that everyone compares to. By the way I can't imagine a better scope at any price than my PMII 5-25 with the MSR reticle. The reason no other scope company can pass them is that maybe we've reached the pinnacle in quality glass that the human eye is capable of seeing a difference. I mean we have 1080p television now, if we had higher resolution t.v.'s the human eye wouldn't notice a difference, maybe we've reached that level with scope glass as well?
One of the reasons that S&B is considered the "gold standard" is the very limited availability of the other brands in the U.S. For years there was nothing that compared. Now that we're getting these other fantastic European brands S&B is no longer exclusive; there are ample peers to S&B scopes. This question would have much different answers in Europe where Hensoldt and others have been the gold standard for nearly 100 years.
Now look who owns Hensoldt and where there warranty service went. Not sure what is in store for the Hensoldt spotter 45 & 60.
Where did their warranty service go?!
I own a Hensoldt scope, and while I'm not near as hard on a scope as real life military and police snipers, I'd like to think Hensoldt would honor their warranty if something happened to my scope.
Just reading this post makes me greatful for all the quality options available now. I have a Vortex Razor HD 5-20X, which I love, but also have March F 3-24X & 5-40X with FML-1 reticles and waiting for the BEAST. All reticles are mil/mil. Have used S&B, but din't see much difference.
Warranty is important to me when buying a high dollar scope. I know some folks on here are swimming in money, but every high dollar scope I own was a long saved for purchase. I won't buy Hensoldt because of their CS. I do not like the idea of having a $4K paper weight.
Get it - with the old-style DT turrets. You won't regret it. I don't have much time behind my 3-20 at all but the H2CMR reticle is freaking awesome. On lower mag it looks like a single thick crosshair, and the .2 mil wind holds are amazing on higher mag.
Honestly if it weren't for the fact that S&B is right down the way and Jerry is running things I likely would have gone with a Kahles (even though they are new to being back in the US). Premier has a long history and they too are local but I wouldn't buy one after they fired the entire staff the day before xmas and there change over in ownership.
I have zero interest in buying something for 3k+ if I can't count on there being a stateside presence for as long as I plan on owning the product.
I have zero interest in buying something for 3k+ if I can't count on there being a stateside presence for as long as I plan on owning the product.
