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M110 replacement?

Re: M110 replacement?

Awesome link. Thanks. That's much, much more interesting than a debate on GOV monies spent years back. I wonder more about who is not on that list than who is on it. Where's LaRue, LWRC, POF, GAP, etc???
 
Re: M110 replacement?

Larue would be hard pressed to produce 200 rifles a year, let alone 200 rifles a month.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

Guys, KAC won the contract. That doesn't mean their system is the best. It means it was the best of the systems that actually tried to win the contract.

If you got the stones to take the risk and you win it, you are allowed to charge extra.

Are there 0.5 MOA capable 7.62 systems out there? Yes. Did they win the contract, or even try to win it? No, and probably not.

So stop bitching. If you're so upset, why don't you go spend a few or fifty million on equipment, employees, etc. and build your own superior system, so that you can sell it to the government for a low price, out of the goodness of your heart. Jeez. This is like someone once told me "it's so stupid to charge $200+ for bottom metal, it's a single block of aluminium." Yeah, so go buy a $100k CNC machine and learn to code for it and build it yourself for the price of that "single block of aluminium."

This shit is starting to piss me off.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

bp do you have any idea of what happened with that contract? or what knights did to get it? also do you have any idea of hte back story between crane and Knights and crane having hundreds of problem reports for those guns, mine shot its barrel out after 1600 rounds the mod 1's are a step in teh right direction but there is a reason the mk20 got approved so fast. the mk11 aka m110 is a POS.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

I work for a company that does Gov contracts for gear related items and let me tell you retail prices have nothing to do with contract prices. Each contract has unique R&D costs that have to be recuperated and different testing and other costs associated with the contract above and beyond the production of the products not to mention the time of the individuals interfacing with the gov and repair costs. I'm not gonna argue one system vs another but gov pricing has nothing to do with contract pricing period.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

JB,

I apologize for the charts and graphs, but ignorance of how the world works like what we've seen happen in this thread bothers me (and I see others share in the same disgust). It's the same type of ignorance that leads a certain portion of our population to believe that they are entitled to free things from the government. The same type of ignorance that leads our lawmakers to ban certain types of weapons based on how they look.

Back to the topic, there's an interesting PDF that I came across at the office. It was Remington's appeal of the Gov's decision in choosing KAC. May provide some insight as to what they felt could be improved by KAC's M110 and what they would look for in a replacement (or upgrade?). I can't find it now, but will post the link on Monday.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

what about triggers in the knights ,i heard of troubles here ,any truth in this one ??what does the gang think of the fold down rear sight -adjustable one windage and elevation ??thxs
 
Re: M110 replacement?

yep the trigger were constanty breaking, thus we were moving towards replacing with geissele before the MK20 was put into production.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

Like I said in a previous post. 2,500 rds. Trigger has always been fine.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

set



he-he-he...i'm too stupid to get into this debate (it would be like a shooter/sniper/operator trying to preach the finer points of winning government contracts and how/what a business need to do to win/fulfill contracts while being able to make a profit and stay afloat)...i'm not getting out of my swim lane here, b/c i just don't have any experience with government procurement or with how a business works...but in comparison of the weapon in question, the aforementioned link (i'm also too stupid to figure out how to load a pic to my reply, thus the link instead) is a pictured heavy that was just used about, let's say over last few weeks at SFSC in place of the weapon system in question...i hear it faired very sweeeetlllllyyyyy!
 
Re: M110 replacement?

As much money as is wasted by our government on pointless, needless, and dumb shit I wouldn't consider what is spent on any Small Arm to be a drop in the barrel.
Also other than some ruptured gas tubes early on I haven't any heard of many real complaints. I personally would like to see DI give way to piston systems all around. Then theres people who swear by DI. I had three ruptured/clogged gas tubes in a six year stint with the Army. The real problem is for a such a simple fix IE swapping it out, it has to be sent up to Battalion level or higher to get fixed.
If you guys think that spending 12,000grand on a rifle system is bad you should look at the way aircraft have been handled over the years. For example Company A wins a contract, sets time frame and price. Then can't meet the contract so it gets renegotiated for a much higher price.
Thats bad bussiness any way you look at. So kudos to KAC if they can meet there demand on time without charging extra.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

i guess you are as stupid as i with this tech stuff....jus kidding...the link was a picture of a scar heavy used in place of the m110...probably couldn't view it b/c you're not my friend.......
 
Re: M110 replacement?

sorry my last response was in reply for tallshot....i couldn't figure out to load a pic or auth the link.....
 
Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DP425,

There are plenty of reports of greater than 1MOA accuracy with M118LR (this website, lightfighter, american rifleman magazine)...in other words, underwhelming, underperforming, or what ever words u wouldn't expect to use to describe an $8,000 rifle.
[well-warranted but non-detailed citations to 3rd-party sources snipped]</div></div>

I tend to agree there.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I hope the pentagon back-charges KAC for the cost of this POS rifle <span style="font-weight: bold">plus punitive damages</span> in order to send a message to other govt contractors with designs of ripping off the taxpayers...
</div></div>
You're describing a breach of contract action, and the courts are still holding the line distinguishing a mere broken promise (contract, future performance, was it a "bad deal"?) from outright fraud (lies about presently-existing facts PLUS "reasonable reliance" by the victim, and other elements).

Punitive damages just don't happen in breach of contracts cases. It's not like a drunk driver's reckless disregard for the safety of others.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm not afraid to call shit, shit. </div></div>
Neither am I.

Your proposed remedy risks walking down the path of despised politicians who ignore the law. That includes case law, a.k.a. "controlling legal authority" (from a FOB who's long out of office now).
 
Re: M110 replacement?

If you think the gov't is way over paying for everything.....Go to work for them, then post some updates of your fortunes.

Try using the same analysis in your yearly reviews, then post more updates.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That "smoke, mirrors, and extra crap" is what we call "business". Its understanding the economics of how to make money doing something for a living.

I agree there are other platforms out there that are equal or better. No doubt about it.

But it remains that there are only a few suppliers who will meet all of the demands of government contracting and... frankly... are willing to put up with the shit.

The government is not an easy customer. </div></div>


After going through TINA training I completely agree. (Truth In Negotiations Act) - the govt can say "Hey we found someone that will supply your parts c heaper, why did you not use them?" - and they can file a claim against YOU the business.

I think with the 6 billion they lost in Iraq and all the money that the TARPA has lost (56 billion unaccounted for) -

I don't give a rats *ss how much it costs if it is effective at killing bad guys.
 
Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't give a rats *ss how much it costs if it is effective at killing bad guys. </div></div>

^^^^ this.
 
Necro-thread resurrect, but a good one. Funny to see how many people are in the dark about how things really work.

I'm one of the guys who always felt the M24 was an absolute mistake in so many ways, but the accuracy and logistics problems with the M21 were such that formal sniper training schools had a really hard time keeping a consistent gun up and running. SF worked hard to make the M21 more viable with the XM25 program, but it didn't gain a lot of traction.

We really should have had an SR25 when the M24 was adopted, and allowed the system to absorb and deal with it starting around the same time SF and JSOC started buying them in the early 1990's. Only problem is the M24 was developed in the 1980's, and adopted in 1988, with units starting to take delivery in 1989.



We basically put a heavy target gun chambered in 7.62 NATO in a long action, since SF really wanted a .300 WM, slapped a crappy HS Precision stock on it with the 82nd's requirement for the butt to be adjusted down to fit in an M1950 Weapons Case, and issued it to all the Scout Platoons in Infantry Battalions. Sure, for laying in the prone on a clean range, the M24 is fine for shooting accurately and with 1st-round hit probability very high at 600m. Big deal. Now try operating with it in a light infantry, airmobile, or airborne unit where the pace of maneuver is fast, and you are rarely in one position much longer than an hour.

I always felt the M24 was a mistake, and after using it in 3 different Scout Sniper Platoons, attendance in a SOTIC MTT run by 1st SFG, and seeing it used operationally in OIF1, I confirmed my bias against it. We still got it done, but I always wanted a 7.62 Semi-Auto Sniper System based on the AR10.

I'm behind the camera in this pic. That's an M24 SWS with the horrid PVS-10 in the lower left.


And to talk about malfunctions. I had more FTFeed with the stupid M24 because of that long action with a short action cartridge. Imagine M118 bouncing around in the magazine under recoil, and the top rounds stacking back farther than the bottom ones. The M40 OTH was built right in a short action.

Funny thing, when I have asked 8541's what they chose to go outside the wire with, they said they preferred the Mk.11 over the M40A3 most of the time. I know plenty of guys have used the M40 outside the wire, but it has been significantly displaced by the self-loader.

With the superior BC pills in the .308, you can afford to go down to a shorter barrel, which allows you to shoot positions much better. Positions are reality, and the prone rarely is. Knight's has been the major factor in providing a weapon system we should have really had in 1955, and the idea that meeting the Army's requirements can be done at the same volume, at the same or higher standards, for less money is simply ignorant of the understanding of what goes into a military series of requirements. KAC got ot right with the M110C. This + 175gr is a winner.



I own a wonderful GA Precision AR in .260 Remington with a Bartlein barrel, and have owned 5 different AR10's. If someone is suggesting that any of the other manufacturers could meet the volume requirement alone, while maintaining KAC's standards, then they're talking about a company that simply doesn't exist right now. I own nothing from KAC other than an unused RAS in a box somewhere, and have no loyalty or affiliation with them. I wish I would have had an SR25 for all those years that I carried an M24 around, with its .900" muzzle.
 
My buddy got a Knights at the time. I got a krieger and JP guts on top of a mega billet.
His shoots ok but nothing to throw a party. Mine shoots 1/2 moa consistently.


308ARMegaKirt03.jpg
 
Why people still get excited about this stuff is beyond me.


This happens EVERY year, for EVERY issued weapon. Just because it's replaced with one gun doesn't make it better than the next. Just some company or some brass said hey I like that one better lets try to sign it over or see if we can have testimonials and replace it.


98% of the time it is just talk or speculation or for a special unit and a few are made and used then all forums across the nation sells their MK12/11 and builds or buys what they just say to say in the cool tactiawesome group.


Then the next year it's all the same.
 
Why people still get excited about this stuff is beyond me.


This happens EVERY year, for EVERY issued weapon. Just because it's replaced with one gun doesn't make it better than the next. Just some company or some brass said hey I like that one better lets try to sign it over or see if we can have testimonials and replace it.


98% of the time it is just talk or speculation or for a special unit and a few are made and used then all forums across the nation sells their MK12/11 and builds or buys what they just say to say in the cool tactiawesome group.


Then the next year it's all the same.

It is all about fashions now. Many folks have gone form Airsoft to Marksman w/o much of a transition so they have no clue what they are doing. Where have you been when the superduper blackout came out? LOL.
 
Why people still get excited about this stuff is beyond me.


This happens EVERY year, for EVERY issued weapon. Just because it's replaced with one gun doesn't make it better than the next. Just some company or some brass said hey I like that one better lets try to sign it over or see if we can have testimonials and replace it.


98% of the time it is just talk or speculation or for a special unit and a few are made and used then all forums across the nation sells their MK12/11 and builds or buys what they just say to say in the cool tactiawesome group.


Then the next year it's all the same.

"Use what they use"

It's the best marketing campaign for any gun manufacturer.
 
I don't think you understand gov't procurement and what the gov't is getting for that price.

The current M110s are stupid expensive. We as tax payers should be more than upset at this fraud waste and abuse. Equal if not better rifles can be had at less than half the cost. The suppressors on the current (and carbine) SR-25s is not the quietest or lightest .30 cal suppressor out their either.

I know that the Larue OBR is a definite contender to take over some new government contracts. Lets just say an OBR at $2,900 + say a Surefire suppressor at $1,900 can be had for less than the cost of an SR-25 carbine WITHOUT a suppressor.

As a taxpayer, everyone on here should be demanding the Government dump the KAC contracts, unless they are dropping their price well below their competitors.

I think the total cost of my M110 was around $21,000... Really??? For what??? I could easily have a platform; capable of the same accuracy, quieter, and with the same reliability for a quarter of the cost.

STOP THE SENSELESS SPENDING!!!!!!

Just my .02 cents.
 
It is all about fashions now. Many folks have gone form Airsoft to Marksman w/o much of a transition so they have no clue what they are doing. Where have you been when the superduper blackout came out? LOL.

You have NO CLUE how many arguments and tactifools I went up against with that sh**...

And the frog lube, and the key mod, and on and on I do this every trend cause I call it like it is then the commandos gets upset and remind me how combat ready I am lol

"Use what they use"

It's the best marketing campaign for any gun manufacturer.

No doubt but the fact that it works is what annoys me. The same as why the kardashians are on every TV and magazine for the past 14 months...
 
I agree if its to look "badass" at the range, that's just retarded and any one worth their salt can see right through those people. I for one am a collector so to be able to purchase what they use if fantastic. The only problem in this case is the cost of the weapon :(

You have NO CLUE how many arguments and tactifools I went up against with that sh**...

And the frog lube, and the key mod, and on and on I do this every trend cause I call it like it is then the commandos gets upset and remind me how combat ready I am lol



No doubt but the fact that it works is what annoys me. The same as why the kardashians are on every TV and magazine for the past 14 months...
 
I agree if its to look "badass" at the range, that's just retarded and any one worth their salt can see right through those people. I for one am a collector so to be able to purchase what they use if fantastic. The only problem in this case is the cost of the weapon :(

I don't mind it too much I really don't. Until they open their mouth and either go on with the tactical specs on why their gun is chosen by navy seals or better than the 5.56 and pull some random BS out of their a** to justify their rifle being awesome. Or come on forums and spout off these fats they read in someone's post or tactical mag and go on like they invented the dam thing.

Like the 300blk so many people got mad because I didn't jizz my self over their 300blk thread or post "I wish I was you" and throw a fit and talk about how it was made for this and does that against a block wall and mention it's ballistics and "stopping power" and everything and it's like no you dumb a** is was made for suppression... You live in CA, you will not and can not go suppressed your rifle is useless.


Or the guys like a lot of my friends who buy the hip rifle set up then never fire it or shoot it once then sell it for the next hot thing. Then text me about how excited they are and i just say he it's ok or not my thing then they get upset again I didn't lose my mind that they have the hot rifle or $4,000 1oz rail of this week.

It's when the boasting or out right crap smug conversation begins is when I get up and say something.

I buy my rifles to keep and shoot. Not fit in.
 
Guys, with all respect you have no idea what it is like to do business with the US Government. It is typical for them to take 24-36 months to make an AWARD. Then they expect the contractor to fast track deliveries. Our company goes from full rate production plus to shutdown in a regular basis. Today almost no government production is stabilized. After award they often require first article testing. This process can take an additional 12 months before the contractor actually begins production.

Now I am not defending KAC but I live in their world. Here is an example we are dealing with right now. We have a shipment sitting on our dock. It has been there for 2 weeks. Customer demanded they handle shipping. They assured us it would be picked up last Monday. Had we shipped it ourselves we would have already been paid (10 day terms). So they demanded to ship themselves and we cut prices to reflect and we have no idea when they will pick up the shipment. We do know we won't be paid until later next year. Our dock is clogged, and we have material creeping into the production floor. See where this goes....

So, before you bash the price the USG pays for a gun, consider the BS above and you quickly understand why they cost the taxpayer what they cost.

Oh, if the customer continues to demand to handle shipping the price will go up due to forcing us into their shipping system.
 
Guys, with all respect you have no idea what it is like to do business with the US Government. It is typical for them to take 24-36 months to make an AWARD. Then they expect the contractor to fast track deliveries. Our company goes from full rate production plus to shutdown in a regular basis. Today almost no government production is stabilized. After award they often require first article testing. This process can take an additional 12 months before the contractor actually begins production.

Now I am not defending KAC but I live in their world. Here is an example we are dealing with right now. We have a shipment sitting on our dock. It has been there for 2 weeks. Customer demanded they handle shipping. They assured us it would be picked up last Monday. Had we shipped it ourselves we would have already been paid (10 day terms). So they demanded to ship themselves and we cut prices to reflect and we have no idea when they will pick up the shipment. We do know we won't be paid until later next year. Our dock is clogged, and we have material creeping into the production floor. See where this goes....

So, before you bash the price the USG pays for a gun, consider the BS above and you quickly understand why they cost the taxpayer what they cost.

Oh, if the customer continues to demand to handle shipping the price will go up due to forcing us into their shipping system.

Pretty much yea.. I like you work for the Federal Gov (Navy Civ) and know the full spectrum of contracts, work plans and all the paper work and time in between and how it has to pass through 8 people before its signed off approved and passed back down before you get the A-OK to start to job/purchase the machine/material. On top of it usually not being the best there is but more of which sounds better on paper for your boss to approve to his boss to his bosses boss to say yea that sounds like a smart budgeted decision lets do that. The gov like the post I quoted is usually several years behind because of how long it takes to clear and process these kinda of purchases or changes to a unit or command let alone a full branch of military or the entire military.


I'm sure there are plenty active and fed's who know what were talking about lol
 
Both of the above are right on. Government contracting is no picnic. I work in construction contracting on the active side of the NAVY and it's interesting to say the least. And for everyone that whines about small arms contracts, go look up the unit price of the F-35 and the total cost of the entire program or how much a DDG or carrier costs. Small arms are a tiny drop in an immense bucket. You might think you could save a few pennies doing things different but then you start running into the law of diminishing returns.
 
The way I see it, from the perspective of doing more than a few bids on contacts with the government, they make you charge crazy prices. Not to mention the trillions they waste on slugs that do nothing but breed, I am okay with my tax money being "wasted" in this area, I want then to double and triple the "wasting" in this area and stop in other areas.


By time you add the government administrative overhead on top of these rifles you are probably looking at 100 - 200 k each.
 
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