Well, I guess we'll just bow down to your superior weapons handling prowess. I feel like such a neophyte in your presence.
You still avoided the issue. Typical when you just can't be wrong.
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Hunting & Fishing Another hunting death
- Thread starter GardDog
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Well, I guess we'll just bow down to your superior weapons handling prowess. I feel like such a neophyte in your presence.
You still avoided the issue. Typical when you just can't be wrong.
What is there to be wrong about. You carry how you like and I will carry how I like. I have people begging me to take them out hunting. If a loaded gun scares you its ok, they scare lots of people.
Um...here in PA if you hunt with a cold chamber by the time you chamber a round all you're going to see is the deer's behind. Ranges here are are typically close, less than 100 yards but with occasional opportunities of 2 - 300 yards. And the slightest movement can spook a deer. I've hunted with a loaded chamber all my life. Keep my safety ON, finger OFF the trigger and muzzle pointed to the ground. Now I will say that if I have to traverse a fence, I'll open the bolt slightly then place the rifle on the ground, retrieving it after I've gotten under the fence.
maybe rename this thread "another death caused by someone else's carelessness"
hunting didn't kill 'em, a mistake by the bloke next to him did.
hunting didn't kill 'em, a mistake by the bloke next to him did.
"I note a general difference of opinion in this thread: cold chamber west of Mississippi, hot east (not 100%). In the west we hunt wide open spaces and it does give us an opportunity to see, stalk, set up a shot much more often than in the tight woods of the East."
Very good observation mt Al.
Very good observation mt Al.
Redryder most of the deer and elk I have killed out here(Montana) were at close range in heavy timber. Sure I have taken some long shots but I would say overall my longest shots as a average were over soybean fields back in Michigan.
I have hunted with a hot camber all my life. Never had an ND. Probably because of the marine who trained me at six years old taught me Weapons discipline in black and white no excuses. Follow the ten commandment of firearm safely and you will be good to go. I swear to god the next time some one tells me don't worry its not loaded, I'm gonna bust a nose.
By this line of thought everyone who concealed carries is "about due for an ND". Proper weapons handling is not complacency, it's proper weapons handling. Do you have a lot ND's when handling firearms?
That is correct. Especially if they have not yet had one.
Whether other people more experienced than you have had NDs has no bearing on whether or not you are going to have one, but it is an indication of whether or not it is possible for you to have one.
You're wrong if you think that your having ND's is any indicator of me having an ND. Sounds like you don't have a good grasp of safe weapons handling for all your vast experience.
I bought a series of Jeff Cooper videos once. In one of the videos Jeff took his .45 and showed the camera that it was loaded and then set it on the mantle of his fireplace. Jeff then asked, "If I leave this weapon right there for 10,000 years what are the chances that it will fire absent any human manipulation?" After a dramatic pause he answered "zero. Someone has to take the firearm down turn the safety off and activate the trigger." Those are still the things that have to happen to fire a gun. So if a operator insures those things do not happen, then how can he have a AD?
Another hunting death
Your argument is: If you make something not happen, then it can't happen.
If your premise is that you are preventing something from happening, then of course you can use that to argue that it won't happen.
But that's not Col. Cooper's argument. The point he is trying to make with that demonstration is the same point I am trying to make here:
Jeff Cooper's argument is that the weapon won't discharge on its own; but when you add any human element you begin to risk an ND.
That's circular reasoning:
Your argument is: If you make something not happen, then it can't happen.
If your premise is that you are preventing something from happening, then of course you can use that to argue that it won't happen.
But that's not Col. Cooper's argument. The point he is trying to make with that demonstration is the same point I am trying to make here:
Jeff Cooper's argument is that the weapon won't discharge on its own; but when you add any human element you begin to risk an ND.
Graham, I am not trying to get into a argument with you but is that not the point of the entire thread that we are all responsible to make certain that we are not involved in a accident. And if you check rule 1, you can not simply say "gosh I got no bullets in the chamber so I am safe."
I've taken Larry Vickers' basic carbine and AK classes, and he pointed out the difference between carrying sidearms and long guns. Your sidearm is secure in a holster that completely covers the trigger and trigger guard. Your long gun's trigger and trigger guard are out in the open where a loose piece of kit or a tree branch or a hostile person or anything else can result in an unintended discharge. Therefore, you always carry a long gun on safe.
I always cringe when I read the official tree stand safety rules that tell you to leave your gun on the ground while you climb and then haul it up by a rope. What if a stick gets inside the trigger guard while you're "safely" pulling it across the ground? After it's off the ground, how many times does the muzzle spin around and flag you while you're "safely" pulling it up? How about using a proper sling so it's always under control and never pointed at anything?
On the farm, I hunt with an AR-pattern rifle on a two-point muzzle-down sling and since I'm by myself and without warning could run into game or a venomous snake or a trespasser of unknown intentions, the rifle is cocked and locked just like my 1911. The only person I sometimes hunt with does likewise, but she's a captain in Army civil affairs and has deployed to Afghanistan where she also carried an M4 that way quite often.
But this is on my land on level terrain. If I was on somebody else's land as their guest, I would follow their rules.
I disagree, what i am saying is that if you follow the ten commandments of gun safety you WILL NOT HAVE A ND. What i hear you saying is if you have an empty camber then when you don't follow the rules of firearms safety it won't matter. That is if the camber was truly empty. Complacency comes from treating a firearms as if it is not loaded. All my firearms are loaded, even the empty ones.
How can you totally control a rifle with a loaded chamber if you fall while walking through rough, steep, rocky, wet , snow covered terrain? There is always some risk of an AD, even if it's miniscule. Even on dry, flat ground, anyone can loose their footing and fall. Is it worth the risk of saving a split second on getting a shot? What about that one time you get back to the truck, or tent and you forget to clear the chamber?
My hunting career spans 45+ years, and I can honestly say, hunting with a cold chamber has never cost me a single big game animal.....if it ever does, I can live with it.
My hunting career spans 45+ years, and I can honestly say, hunting with a cold chamber has never cost me a single big game animal.....if it ever does, I can live with it.
I would venture to say that EVERY one of us who has carried a firearm for a living knows someone that despite their training has had an ND.
I personally know a few guys who I have great respect for that have had the big "oops" with a weapon: shooting a tree in the precinct parking lot while "clearing" the 870; shooting a closet full of clothes while practicing "quick draw" in the mirror, etc.
On par with the average American gun owner (I hold my fellow Hiders above this standard so I promise I'm not talking shit with you guys) I am CONSIDERABLY better trained with a variety of weapons, and EVERY SINGLE time I manipulate a weapon I am CONSTANTLY aware that I could have an ND if I lose concentration or do something stupid.
I'm still in that "haven't had an ND.........YET" category, and I pray that if I ever have one, I'll have obeyed all the other rules and cause no more damage than to my pride.
I personally know a few guys who I have great respect for that have had the big "oops" with a weapon: shooting a tree in the precinct parking lot while "clearing" the 870; shooting a closet full of clothes while practicing "quick draw" in the mirror, etc.
On par with the average American gun owner (I hold my fellow Hiders above this standard so I promise I'm not talking shit with you guys) I am CONSIDERABLY better trained with a variety of weapons, and EVERY SINGLE time I manipulate a weapon I am CONSTANTLY aware that I could have an ND if I lose concentration or do something stupid.
I'm still in that "haven't had an ND.........YET" category, and I pray that if I ever have one, I'll have obeyed all the other rules and cause no more damage than to my pride.
Had a long response to this written, but in short. What works in one place does not in another. Those hunting with loaded chambers were taught differently than those of you hunting with an empty chamber, but not incorrectly. Most of us started as kids walking the woods on hunts with our dads with an empty firearm to learn safety. The line of safety for ourselves is different for each of us. I won't be insulted if you don't want to hunt with me, but know that you would be considered somewhat foolish to take foot after a whitetail, bear or turkey in our mountains with an unloaded rifle. You would also be considered a fool to not unload it crossing fences, streams, embankments, ect(IE pulling it up into a tree for one dude). Stand hunting is a new idea to much of the state. I saw deer baiting made legal only a couple of years ago. Spot and stalk hunting and the skills that go with it are lessons worth learning, including proper handling of a loaded rifle around company and quarry in the outdoors. I could fall and have my rifle kill me tomorrow, or maybe just hit my head on a rock and die. I could also wreck my truck on the way home. The outdoors is real life and dangerous. Handling it safely is necessary, but never a guarantee of absolute safety. Please watch your rifle, and yes the 10 rules of gun safety are good knowledge and should be taught to all new shooters!!!! For those unfamiliar, I like the NSSF version. This argument falls under the definition of rule 2. I consider mine in use when I get into the woods. YMMV. Happy New Year.
Firearms Safety | 10 Rules of Safe Gun Handling
Firearms Safety -- 10 Rules of Safe Gun Handling
Collapse All - Expand All
1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction
2. Firearms Should Be Unloaded When Not Actually In Use
3. Don't Rely On Your Gun's "Safety"
4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It
5. Use Correct Ammunition
6. If Your Gun Fails To Fire When The Trigger Is Pulled, Handle With Care!
7. Always Wear Eye And Ear Protection When Shooting
8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting
9. Don't Alter Or Modify Your Gun, And Have Guns Serviced Regularly
10. Learn The Mechanical And Handling Characteristics Of The Firearm You Are Using
Firearms Safety | 10 Rules of Safe Gun Handling
Firearms Safety -- 10 Rules of Safe Gun Handling
Collapse All - Expand All
1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction
2. Firearms Should Be Unloaded When Not Actually In Use
3. Don't Rely On Your Gun's "Safety"
4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It
5. Use Correct Ammunition
6. If Your Gun Fails To Fire When The Trigger Is Pulled, Handle With Care!
7. Always Wear Eye And Ear Protection When Shooting
8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting
9. Don't Alter Or Modify Your Gun, And Have Guns Serviced Regularly
10. Learn The Mechanical And Handling Characteristics Of The Firearm You Are Using
Another hunting death
I don't think that Pat is saying that all hunting rifles should be unloaded until the game presents itself.
If you are still hunting, waiting for a deer, I don't see the problem with loading the chamber. Likewise, if you are stalking a squirrel that you see, but you haven't yet shouldered the rifle, I don't think he is saying that you can't run the bolt.
I haven't had an ND yet, except when on a range, on the line and while engaging targets - that I have done. But I have seen more experienced people than I have them in my presence. It's embarrassing all-around. The key is to admit it, own it, and move on: Muzzle was in a safe direction.
Regardless of how careful I am I know that it can always happen to me, especially during the times that I think I am being safe and when I assume that it can't happen to me.
I don't think that Pat is saying that all hunting rifles should be unloaded until the game presents itself.
If you are still hunting, waiting for a deer, I don't see the problem with loading the chamber. Likewise, if you are stalking a squirrel that you see, but you haven't yet shouldered the rifle, I don't think he is saying that you can't run the bolt.
I haven't had an ND yet, except when on a range, on the line and while engaging targets - that I have done. But I have seen more experienced people than I have them in my presence. It's embarrassing all-around. The key is to admit it, own it, and move on: Muzzle was in a safe direction.
Regardless of how careful I am I know that it can always happen to me, especially during the times that I think I am being safe and when I assume that it can't happen to me.
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Common sense is the answer.
I cannot imagine elephant, cape buffalo, lion, grizzly or brown bear hunting with an unloaded chamber. Nor stalking deer in the timber. Coyote hunting with an AR? How is that going to work? Hunting in areas where poachers, outlaws, drug cookers and dope growers operate? Hunting in politically or militarily unstable areas? I have done all of these things and would not have considered doing so with an unloaded gun, or no round in the chamber.
Hunting horseback, mountain hunting in non grizzly country, climbing, backpacking are situations that allow an empty chamber. Hunting open plains and mountain areas where security is not a risk. Many areas indicate no round in chamber. Also anytime you have concerns about mechanical failure or you ability to safely operate a firearm.
It is all a matter of weighing the risk/benefit of a course of action, just like the rest of the decisions we make in life.
For some, knowing your limitations apparently play a role as well.
I cannot imagine elephant, cape buffalo, lion, grizzly or brown bear hunting with an unloaded chamber. Nor stalking deer in the timber. Coyote hunting with an AR? How is that going to work? Hunting in areas where poachers, outlaws, drug cookers and dope growers operate? Hunting in politically or militarily unstable areas? I have done all of these things and would not have considered doing so with an unloaded gun, or no round in the chamber.
Hunting horseback, mountain hunting in non grizzly country, climbing, backpacking are situations that allow an empty chamber. Hunting open plains and mountain areas where security is not a risk. Many areas indicate no round in chamber. Also anytime you have concerns about mechanical failure or you ability to safely operate a firearm.
It is all a matter of weighing the risk/benefit of a course of action, just like the rest of the decisions we make in life.
For some, knowing your limitations apparently play a role as well.
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First, that's too many to remember. Four is plenty.
Not only that, these "Ten Commandments" don't even get the Four Rules right.
#1 at least correctly states the Second Rule, but should therefore be moved to #2.
#2 is WRONG and should read "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED" and should be moved to #1.
The Third Rule, keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided to fire, isn't even there!
#4 is correct and in the right place.
#5, well, you'd think people would know this, but in police academy on our first day of live range I passed by the table where our instructor was jamming mags for his M92 and something caught my eye. Upon closer inspection: "uh, L-T, do you MEAN to be loading your 9-mil with .380s?" What are you talking about? "Look at those rounds. They're .380, 9mm short, not 9mm Luger. Pull one and check the headstamp." Huh, you're right. "Anytime, sir." Somehow, the reloading company either dropped a box of .380s in a case of 9mm or better yet filled a 50-round box labeled 9mm with .380s. I don't recommend that reloading company anymore. The instructor is a squared-away guy, he just wasn't expecting such a bizarre error.
Another hunting death
Again it amazes me how many experienced gun people don't know the four basic rules.
It's not: ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded. Because we don't always load all guns, and whether guns are always loaded isn't the issue anyway.
It's: Treat EVERY gun AS IF it is loaded.
Again it amazes me how many experienced gun people don't know the four basic rules.
It's not: ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded. Because we don't always load all guns, and whether guns are always loaded isn't the issue anyway.
It's: Treat EVERY gun AS IF it is loaded.
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Things like this is why I am strongly considering taking an EMT class at the local state collage in town. Something similar happened out in the desert here not too long ago and I would always hate to be nearby and not know what to do/have something with me to help.
This is also why I always have an IFAK on me, even when shooting alone or out at night.
This is also why I always have an IFAK on me, even when shooting alone or out at night.
Yes, that's better. Some people are as careless with guns they know are loaded and chambered as they are with a toy gun.
One time I got out my bullseye 1911 (not an A1; made in March 1911) for some dryfiring. Mag out, cocked, safety off, lined up on the target, trigger press, click? no, BAM! One in the chamber after all, since I hadn't actually run the slide to see what might be in there. Good thing I was on the live fire range in the backyard and aimed at a known target with backstop, not shooting at bad guys on the TV.
I used to say this incident was proof that you could violate one rule (incorrectly assuming it was unloaded) so long as you obeyed the other three (safe direction, finger on trigger only after deciding to fire, known target and backstop), but I think there's a flaw in that reasoning somewhere.
Another time at a highpower match during the offhand stage, I single-loaded a round in my match AR and dropped the bolt with the catch as I had done hundreds of times before. Boom, slamfire. Safe direction--pointed at the ground right in front of the 200-yard line--saved everybody from a 5.56mm hole. Probably an ever-so-slightly high primer in my handload. After that, I believed all those people who were telling me don't drop the bolt with the catch. I got a SLED and no more slamfires.
Come on guys, it doesn't matter how well trained or how good you think you are with a rifle/pistol. The laws of uncle murphy are at play when ever you have a round in the chamber. It can't go off if there isn't a round in the chamber. Safeties do fail, it's a mechanical device.
I'm on board with Pat and Garham on this one guys.
Situational awareness and complacency.
There is also the law of probability. The more a person carries a loaded weapon the higher that chance of having an AD. So it's a 50/50 chance every time you have that round in the chamber. Say nothing happens for the first 1000 times, there is that probabilty of having something happen on the 1001 time. obviously this is not a correct figure, but just an example. So the next time you think about loading a weapon think about taking a quarter out of your pocket and giving it a toss. 50/50 chance...
xdeano
I'm on board with Pat and Garham on this one guys.
Situational awareness and complacency.
There is also the law of probability. The more a person carries a loaded weapon the higher that chance of having an AD. So it's a 50/50 chance every time you have that round in the chamber. Say nothing happens for the first 1000 times, there is that probabilty of having something happen on the 1001 time. obviously this is not a correct figure, but just an example. So the next time you think about loading a weapon think about taking a quarter out of your pocket and giving it a toss. 50/50 chance...
xdeano
Every weapon has numerous options to increase safety or to prepare for discharge. Training, awareness and circumstance dictate what should be done.
Unfortunately in this circumstance lack of knowledge-training, complacency or indifference led to tragedy.
Unfortunately in this circumstance lack of knowledge-training, complacency or indifference led to tragedy.
I had a ND once while quail hunting, but it wasn't because I slipped and fell, I pulled the trigger thinking it was empty. Stupid mistake, but at least I was alone, and was using proper muzzle discipline, and the shot went into the air. Now, I think about that every time I go hunting, and make sure that I keep the safety on, and my finger away from the trigger until i'm ready to shoot. I still hunt with a round chambered, but I think careful when I do, and I make sure that I wont make that mistake again.
While I am exmilitary, I am unfamiliar with the nomenclature, hot/cold/ND/AD but it seems like a lot of it has nothing to do with most still hunting in the field. Personally, I close the bolt on a round and engage the safety but am super conscious of where the barrel is pointing, alone or with others. If somebody started with his "rules" about empty chambers, I's say fine, see ya because lots of accidental discharges happen with supposedly unloaded weapons. Probably more because people are more respectful of loaded weapons and get a little careless when the are "empty". Like somebody said previously, TREAT all guns like they are loaded. Works for me.
Mistakes are mistakes, but I'm not changing how I handle guns to suit some control freak. Less than a month ago I was coyote hunting in southern Arizona with a retired Navy Captain. My truck. I use a custom Model 700 and he usually has a break open single shot like a Escort but this time he had an AR. Well, after a couple stands I started wondering and asked him if his chamber was unloaded? He said "no" but the safety was on. Well, the idea of that thing pointed toward the cab didn't sit too well with me, beside just having a loaded rifle in the vehicle. This situation never came up before with the break open stuff he favors but we will need to have a talk if he even brings a "machine gun" next time.
I mean, I trust a safety, while exercising muzzle control, but rolling around in the back of my truck is different. But, this is a delicate matter. I'm not a control freak, but it's my truck and I don't want somebody throwing a "loaded" firearm in the back. And, that's why I don't like the AR platform in the first place, for they type of hunting I do. The loading, unloading between stands and dealing with the loud clatter of replacing the magazine and chambering a round can spook a coyote a half a mile away, which is about how far we walk in.
If anything makes a man understand how important it is to exercise gun safety, it's dragging a coyote with the far side blown out. It's not pretty and I never want to be responsible for accidentally shooting another man in a hunting accident. It would be very hard to live with. BB
Mistakes are mistakes, but I'm not changing how I handle guns to suit some control freak. Less than a month ago I was coyote hunting in southern Arizona with a retired Navy Captain. My truck. I use a custom Model 700 and he usually has a break open single shot like a Escort but this time he had an AR. Well, after a couple stands I started wondering and asked him if his chamber was unloaded? He said "no" but the safety was on. Well, the idea of that thing pointed toward the cab didn't sit too well with me, beside just having a loaded rifle in the vehicle. This situation never came up before with the break open stuff he favors but we will need to have a talk if he even brings a "machine gun" next time.
I mean, I trust a safety, while exercising muzzle control, but rolling around in the back of my truck is different. But, this is a delicate matter. I'm not a control freak, but it's my truck and I don't want somebody throwing a "loaded" firearm in the back. And, that's why I don't like the AR platform in the first place, for they type of hunting I do. The loading, unloading between stands and dealing with the loud clatter of replacing the magazine and chambering a round can spook a coyote a half a mile away, which is about how far we walk in.
If anything makes a man understand how important it is to exercise gun safety, it's dragging a coyote with the far side blown out. It's not pretty and I never want to be responsible for accidentally shooting another man in a hunting accident. It would be very hard to live with. BB
I never have one in the tube unless I'm sitting in the stand. Never missed an opportunity because of it, and never shot my friends either. Though an old timer at my hunting camp did shoot himself in the leg with a .44 magnum that was holstered (hammer got caught on some vines).
I always encourage my hunting buddies to keep a cold chamber. There have been multiple times after a hunt where we have set our rifles on the picnic table at camp.. there are others at camp that may not be educated with firearms, kids, wives, etc. You don't always remember to unload and you don't always keep your muzzle in a safe direction 100% of the time. If you think you do, you are either lying to yourself or not aware of reality. It only takes a nanosecond of being in the wrong direction and you can never call that bullet back.
Instead of relying on yourself to not pull the trigger, or your gun to not fail, why not remove all possibility and keep one out of the chamber? There is HUMAN error, and there is MECHANICAL failure. But neither of those matter if there isn't anything to go boom.
I always encourage my hunting buddies to keep a cold chamber. There have been multiple times after a hunt where we have set our rifles on the picnic table at camp.. there are others at camp that may not be educated with firearms, kids, wives, etc. You don't always remember to unload and you don't always keep your muzzle in a safe direction 100% of the time. If you think you do, you are either lying to yourself or not aware of reality. It only takes a nanosecond of being in the wrong direction and you can never call that bullet back.
Instead of relying on yourself to not pull the trigger, or your gun to not fail, why not remove all possibility and keep one out of the chamber? There is HUMAN error, and there is MECHANICAL failure. But neither of those matter if there isn't anything to go boom.
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All well and good, Sir. But, it appears you don't understand the still hunting concept, as is normal under western conditions. We hunt alone, and I have never actually seen a tree stand, except in catalogs. A slung rifle is quick off the shoulder, releasing the safety and taking a deliberate shot without the noise associated with chambering a round and spooking game. If you can't walk and stalk without worrying about shooting yourself, you probably don't belong out there? BB
Riding in the truck or UTV to my hunting area, always unloaded.
Walking to my hunting stand, climbing, etc. always loaded. (follow Graham's rules of safety).
Hunting, loaded.
Back to a vehicle, loaded.
In the vehicle, unloaded.
You must ALWAYS follow the basic rules and you, IMHO, must always follow your established protocol.
Forgive me but I have had the ND and it was with a handgun. I saw Larry Vickers name mentioned above. Larry has had an ND (I know it because I was at the match). My ND was at a USPSA match. I passed the muzzle control part but my finger was on the trigger when I became overcome by gravity and hit the dirt. Same could happen on hunting ground but if the safety is on and the finger is off the trigger you will have a high likely hood of not having an issue.
As for hunting with a cold chamber, there is a distinct possibility that, when an animal appears, you could ND during that instant when you realize you have to load the damn thing in order to kill it. After all, your focus is going to be on the animal and you are going to be stressed. Will you remember anything about the rules of gun safety then? Probably not.
BB, for once I am with you. Your truck, your rules.
Walking to my hunting stand, climbing, etc. always loaded. (follow Graham's rules of safety).
Hunting, loaded.
Back to a vehicle, loaded.
In the vehicle, unloaded.
You must ALWAYS follow the basic rules and you, IMHO, must always follow your established protocol.
Forgive me but I have had the ND and it was with a handgun. I saw Larry Vickers name mentioned above. Larry has had an ND (I know it because I was at the match). My ND was at a USPSA match. I passed the muzzle control part but my finger was on the trigger when I became overcome by gravity and hit the dirt. Same could happen on hunting ground but if the safety is on and the finger is off the trigger you will have a high likely hood of not having an issue.
As for hunting with a cold chamber, there is a distinct possibility that, when an animal appears, you could ND during that instant when you realize you have to load the damn thing in order to kill it. After all, your focus is going to be on the animal and you are going to be stressed. Will you remember anything about the rules of gun safety then? Probably not.
BB, for once I am with you. Your truck, your rules.
"BB, for once I am with you. Your truck, your rules."
I don't know what I have done to deserve such praise, but thank you. BB
I don't know what I have done to deserve such praise, but thank you. BB
I got ya. I am really only speaking from my hunting experience here on the East Coast. I have on occasion, said 'screw this crap,' got out of my stand and started stalking with one in the tube. Like your explanation, when this occurs it's usually just me by myself with the safety on, with well thought out deliberate movements (very slow). In reality though, I really will only stalk in a stiff wind and/or rain. Just sort of meander through the woods walking right into the wind. But maybe less than 2% of my hunting time is like this and that's pretty par for the course throughout my camp (I'm not going to speak for all East Coast hunters). It's crazy what you can walk up on when your scent and sound is covered up, I will say that.
Ind. police chief accidentally shoots self at gun shop
Pam Tharp, The (Richmond, Ind.) Palladium-Item 6:24 a.m. EST January 21, 2014
'It was pure carelessness on my part,' said chief, who was treated for a flesh wound.
CONNERSVILLE, Ind. — Shooting himself in the leg is not the way Connersville Police Chief David Counceller planned to promote his candidacy for Fayette County sheriff.
Counceller's 40-caliber Glock handgun accidentally discharged Saturday afternoon while he was at Wullf's Gun Shop. Counceller, who was off-duty at the time, said he'd been examining a handgun similar to the one he carries.
"I need to pay more attention," Counceller said. "I know what the dangers are. It was pure carelessness on my part."
The accident occurred when Counceller was putting his Glock into its holster after he removed it to compare it to a newer Glock model at the gun shop, Counceller said.
"It got tangled in my clothing," Counceller said of his weapon. "I was wearing a sweatshirt and a fleece jacket. I felt (the gun) go in the holster and I pushed it, but it was tangled in the material which caused it to discharge. The bullet went into my leg and then into the floor."
Counceller said he drove himself to the hospital for treatment of the flesh wound on his upper, right thigh. Nurses thought the chief was joking when he told them he'd shot himself, Counceller said.
"It is an entrance and exit wound," Counceller said. "I'm really lucky. It doesn't even hurt. I'd have been at work (Monday) if it wasn't Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I'll be back at work on Tuesday."
Mayor Leonard Urban said he also thought the police chief was kidding when he got the call saying he'd shot himself.
"It was just a little accident. Dave is an excellent marksman," Urban said Monday. "Apparently the Glocks don't have the trigger safety that they should have."
The gunshot wound Saturday is not Councellor's first. Fifteen years ago, Counceller said he accidentally shot himself in his hand.
"I was working third shift as a captain. I was unloading (the gun) to take it to the gunsmith and I didn't drop the barrel to see if there was (a bullet) in the chamber," Counceller said. "The shot hit my hand. That one really hurt."
Counceller, 60, began his law enforcement career in the 1970s as a military policeman and has served almost 34 years with the Connersville Police Department. Now seeking the Republican nomination for sheriff in Fayette County's May primary, the chief was philosophical about his weekend accident.
"If anyone says this could never happen to them, they're mistaken," Counceller said. "You have to keep your guard up at all times. Some candidates are out there doing things for kids to try to get elected. Me, I shoot myself. What a way to get publicity."
Ind. police chief accidentally shoots self at gun shop
Pam Tharp, The (Richmond, Ind.) Palladium-Item 6:24 a.m. EST January 21, 2014
'It was pure carelessness on my part,' said chief, who was treated for a flesh wound.
CONNERSVILLE, Ind. — Shooting himself in the leg is not the way Connersville Police Chief David Counceller planned to promote his candidacy for Fayette County sheriff.
Counceller's 40-caliber Glock handgun accidentally discharged Saturday afternoon while he was at Wullf's Gun Shop. Counceller, who was off-duty at the time, said he'd been examining a handgun similar to the one he carries.
"I need to pay more attention," Counceller said. "I know what the dangers are. It was pure carelessness on my part."
The accident occurred when Counceller was putting his Glock into its holster after he removed it to compare it to a newer Glock model at the gun shop, Counceller said.
"It got tangled in my clothing," Counceller said of his weapon. "I was wearing a sweatshirt and a fleece jacket. I felt (the gun) go in the holster and I pushed it, but it was tangled in the material which caused it to discharge. The bullet went into my leg and then into the floor."
Counceller said he drove himself to the hospital for treatment of the flesh wound on his upper, right thigh. Nurses thought the chief was joking when he told them he'd shot himself, Counceller said.
"It is an entrance and exit wound," Counceller said. "I'm really lucky. It doesn't even hurt. I'd have been at work (Monday) if it wasn't Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I'll be back at work on Tuesday."
Mayor Leonard Urban said he also thought the police chief was kidding when he got the call saying he'd shot himself.
"It was just a little accident. Dave is an excellent marksman," Urban said Monday. "Apparently the Glocks don't have the trigger safety that they should have."
The gunshot wound Saturday is not Councellor's first. Fifteen years ago, Counceller said he accidentally shot himself in his hand.
"I was working third shift as a captain. I was unloading (the gun) to take it to the gunsmith and I didn't drop the barrel to see if there was (a bullet) in the chamber," Counceller said. "The shot hit my hand. That one really hurt."
Counceller, 60, began his law enforcement career in the 1970s as a military policeman and has served almost 34 years with the Connersville Police Department. Now seeking the Republican nomination for sheriff in Fayette County's May primary, the chief was philosophical about his weekend accident.
"If anyone says this could never happen to them, they're mistaken," Counceller said. "You have to keep your guard up at all times. Some candidates are out there doing things for kids to try to get elected. Me, I shoot myself. What a way to get publicity."
Ind. police chief accidentally shoots self at gun shop
Hunting with an empty chamber? That might be safer, but not everything can be completely safe...
Try hunting ruffed grouse without dogs on an empty chamber...you'd starve!
Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction...nobody gets shot.
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Try hunting ruffed grouse without dogs on an empty chamber...you'd starve!
Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction...nobody gets shot.
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Another reply...in response to the point Graham is trying to make.
Graham is absolutely right...ND's can and will happen, but if you're following the rest of the rules then nobody gets hurt.
I blew a hole in the ceiling with a 16 gauge shotgun years ago...was on my way out of the house to go squirrel hunting, I have no idea what pulled the trigger but it wasn't my finger (had an arm load of stuff..vest, coat, shotgun, etc.), my fingers were nowhere near the trigger...but something pulled it.
Gun was pointed up...hole in ceiling...no real harm done...I was about 12 years old when this happened, Grandad just said "at least you had it pointed in a safe direction"....I was expecting an ass whooping.
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Graham is absolutely right...ND's can and will happen, but if you're following the rest of the rules then nobody gets hurt.
I blew a hole in the ceiling with a 16 gauge shotgun years ago...was on my way out of the house to go squirrel hunting, I have no idea what pulled the trigger but it wasn't my finger (had an arm load of stuff..vest, coat, shotgun, etc.), my fingers were nowhere near the trigger...but something pulled it.
Gun was pointed up...hole in ceiling...no real harm done...I was about 12 years old when this happened, Grandad just said "at least you had it pointed in a safe direction"....I was expecting an ass whooping.
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I just want to add... I saw earlier in this thread guys were talking about their carry weapons. I just want to say that there is a big difference between a high powered rifle that is specifically designed to kill something in as few shots and little time as possible... and a pistol that is designed to neutralize a threat. I've had this discussion many times before. Being that I have worked at a hospital I have seen guys come in with multiple pistol wounds in vital areas. They survived. A rifle is a different story, one shot from that sucker and you're very likely to be dead if it hits anywhere near a vital organ. Just adding that .02.
