Why we don't need or want government "Heros" (See: police shoot robbery suspects and innocent...)

[casualfornow]

I'm guessing an eight foot "group" at 25 yards based on the strike at the top of the truck to the bottom.
Can anyone estimate the MOA at 100 yards?



(If you receive a government pension or expect to receive one you better stop reading now.)

Yes it is clear from this video the the UPS driver was murdered by police while he was trying to escape the truck.

Rules of engagement:

1. Shoot anyone who seems to be involved in an incident. You can always offer grandiose apologies later.
2. Shoot anyone who resists your "God given" authority. Try to avoid being videoed.
3. If you feel it is prudent to shoot a "mouthy" suspect, be sure to yell "GUN!" first to justify the shooting.
4. If you do get caught "murdering" a suspect, don't worry, you fellow "heroes" will explain to the press and at
the subsequent trail why your actions were justified in your situation. Remember: We'll cover for you!
Don't worry how, we have significant resources, and only have to convince the masses, plus they'll forget soon.
5. New recruits: Yes sometimes we have to do horrible things. We don't usually enjoy it. But it is part of your
job if you want to get a paycheck and get a full pension after 20 years. The public doesn't understand the stresses
involved in maintaining the "thin blue line".
6. Lastly and always go home safely to YOUR family and children. Not like the weeping wives and children of those
unfortunate enough to get caught in friendly fire or the collateral damage.

Cut and paste the video not shown on the TV for the masses:



<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/377990719" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IF it is removed let me know I saved a copy...

If you feel this comment is slightly "unfair" don't complain to me. Write a letter to the victims family's why their husband and father was "killed"
during your engagement. Sometimes that is what you get for not being a "hero".

To the families: I am deeply sorry for your love ones being violently killed in such a negligent act. My prayers are all I can offer you now...
My God comfort your wounded hearts. 2 corinthians 1:3 May your families receive justice. Romans 12:19

 

[Expert684]

8’ group at 25 yards is 384 moa group.
Nice shooting, Ray Charles could have done better.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Cant hit the broad side of UPS truck? Nevermind that its in the middle of traffic in the middle of town and there are people all around.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

So hypothetically speaking. if you are an innocent bystander in your car and an officer is shooting stray bullets into your car, is it justified to shoot said officer in self defense?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

So hypothetically speaking. if you are an innocent bystander in your car and an officer is shooting stray bullets into your car, is it justified to shoot said officer in self defense?

It is one HELL of a situation to bring about that sort of question.

 

[Threadcutter308]

FYI guys, there’s rules against trashing cops on this site..........

Not saying anyone is wrong, but this is a good way to get banned.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

It is one HELL of a situation to bring about that sort of question.

Yeah just imagining I'm in traffic with my family and someone is shooting into my car.

IDGAF who it is, they need to be stopped.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against police. Some good friends are officers. It's just you see videos like this and think WTF. A shootout seems like a total disregard for everyone around.

 

[zeroz]

FYI guys, there’s rules against trashing cops on this site..........

Not saying anyone is wrong, but this is a good way to get banned.

.....But if there ever was a time...Jimeny Christmas. At one point it looks like one of them is just sticking his hand over the SUV and cutting loose.

I'm against bashing LEO in general but God bless, this is a disaster.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I'm guessing an eight foot "group" at 25 yards based on the strike at the top of the truck to the bottom.
Can anyone estimate the MOA at 100 yards?



(If you receive a government pension or expect to receive one you better stop reading now.)

View attachment 7197343

Yes it is clear from this video the the UPS driver was murdered by police while he was trying to escape the truck.

Rules of engagement:

1. Shoot anyone who seems to be involved in an incident. You can always offer grandiose apologies later.
2. Shoot anyone who resists your "God given" authority. Try to avoid being videoed.
3. If you feel it is prudent to shoot a "mouthy" suspect, be sure to yell "GUN!" first to justify the shooting.
4. If you do get caught "murdering" a suspect, don't worry, you fellow "heroes" will explain to the press and at
the subsequent trail why your actions were justified in your situation. Remember: We'll cover for you!
Don't worry how, we have significant resources, and only have to convince the masses, plus they'll forget soon.
5. New recruits: Yes sometimes we have to do horrible things. We don't usually enjoy it. But it is part of your
job if you want to get a paycheck and get a full pension after 20 years. The public doesn't understand the stresses
involved in maintaining the "thin blue line".
6. Lastly and always go home safely to YOUR family and children. Not like the weeping wives and children of those
unfortunate enough to get caught in friendly fire or the collateral damage.

Cut and paste the video not shown on the TV for the masses:



<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/377990719" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IF it is removed let me know I saved a copy...

If you feel this comment is slightly "unfair" don't complain to me. Write a letter to the victims family's why their husband and father was "killed"
during your engagement. Sometimes that is what you get for not being a "hero".

To the families: I am deeply sorry for your love ones being violently killed in such a negligent act. My prayers are all I can offer you now...
My God comfort your wounded hearts. 2 corinthians 1:3 May your families

Meh, I think you are wrong.

I will bash the shit out of a bad cop like no one else. This is not that.

This is not a situation where the cops picked the wrong house. The fact is 2 out of the three in that truck were dangerous criminals.

While shitty out come no doubt, the UPS driver was dead the moment they car jacked his delivery truck. Any other belief is just not realistic.

He was in the same position as the passengers on flight 93, fucked either way and should have fought back. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't we will never know.

If you are being shot at, you have every right to defend yourself. While collateral damage must be considered your life must and will be considered at a higher level. LEO is the same!!! What are they supposed to do, just take it like a bitch?? Would you??

Had the van stopped and they held a gun to the hostage's head and demanded a negotiation then yea, I would side with you. They came out guns a-blazing some how thinking they would prevail against the entire police department. Fucking retards!!

You need to lay blame at the criminal's feet, same as if it were a school shooting.

The criminals tried to rob a jewelry store , the criminals car jacked a van, the criminals took a hostage and kid napped said hostage, the criminals ran rough shod through traffic putting a lot of innocent people at risk.

Very very few people here have been on a two way range, and if some fucking how you believe with bullets passing by you, you will maintain the same level of accuracy as a static range you are a retard x2.

I will say this, I believe most LEO do not know when to STOP shooting. Also the reason practice on a static range and in scenarios is needed is to train your body in muscle memory so that you maintain some level of "fundamentals" in a SHTF situation. With that I do not believe the average LEO practices enough. (I practice/train a shit ton more than most LEO I know).

 

[Son of Dorn]

Ray Charles could have done better.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I'm guessing an eight foot "group" at 25 yards based on the strike at the top of the truck to the bottom.
Can anyone estimate the MOA at 100 yards?



(If you receive a government pension or expect to receive one you better stop reading now.)

View attachment 7197343

Yes it is clear from this video the the UPS driver was murdered by police while he was trying to escape the truck.

Rules of engagement:

1. Shoot anyone who seems to be involved in an incident. You can always offer grandiose apologies later.
2. Shoot anyone who resists your "God given" authority. Try to avoid being videoed.
3. If you feel it is prudent to shoot a "mouthy" suspect, be sure to yell "GUN!" first to justify the shooting.
4. If you do get caught "murdering" a suspect, don't worry, you fellow "heroes" will explain to the press and at
the subsequent trail why your actions were justified in your situation. Remember: We'll cover for you!
Don't worry how, we have significant resources, and only have to convince the masses, plus they'll forget soon.
5. New recruits: Yes sometimes we have to do horrible things. We don't usually enjoy it. But it is part of your
job if you want to get a paycheck and get a full pension after 20 years. The public doesn't understand the stresses
involved in maintaining the "thin blue line".
6. Lastly and always go home safely to YOUR family and children. Not like the weeping wives and children of those
unfortunate enough to get caught in friendly fire or the collateral damage.

Cut and paste the video not shown on the TV for the masses:



<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/377990719" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IF it is removed let me know I saved a copy...

If you feel this comment is slightly "unfair" don't complain to me. Write a letter to the victims family's why their husband and father was "killed"
during your engagement. Sometimes that is what you get for not being a "hero".

To the families: I am deeply sorry for your love ones being violently killed in such a negligent act. My prayers are all I can offer you now...
My God comfort your wounded hearts. 2 corinthians 1:3 May your families receive justice. Romans 12:19

You have 30 posts and have been here 6 months, and this is the shit you bring here to post?

Just exactly what is your specific goal in posting this video and your dumbass commentary? You gonna lead an assault on the precinct? Are you recruiting for your own militia group? What? Have you ever been in anything remotely resembling this situation?

When the guy stuck his head out and started firing at the cops at 00:19, exactly what would have been your enlightened course of action against a moving barricaded target that is sending rounds at you? I really wanna know.

 

[pmclaine]

What would Army Jerry say?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

What would Army Jerry say?

Never heard of her.

 

[RyanScott]

80% of hostages worldwide survive. Just saying.

I’ve checked my own fire during a critical incident due to risk to collateral damage, and I was 20 years old, not an experienced policeman.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

80% of hostages worldwide survive. Just saying.

I’ve checked my own fire during a critical incident due to risk to collateral damage, and I was 20 years old, not an experienced policeman.

Oh, there is plenty fucked up with what went on, no doubt about that.

The difference is, the fucktard OP has no idea. He's just running his fucking snapper about something he can't even fathom, and stirring up shit for no gain or good reason.

 

[Maggot]

You have 30 posts and have been here 6 months, and this is the shit you bring here to post?

Just exactly what is your specific goal in posting this video and your dumbass commentary? You gonna lead an assault on the precinct? Are you recruiting for your own militia group? What? Have you ever been in anything remotely resembling this situation?

When the guy stuck his head out and started firing at the cops at 00:19, exactly what would have been your enlightened course of action against a moving barricaded target that is sending rounds at you? I really wanna know.

Oh, there is plenty fucked up with what went on, no doubt about that.

The difference is, the fucktard OP has no idea. He's just running his fucking snapper about something he can't even fathom, and stirring up shit for no gain or good reason.

Skookum, I agree with most of what you said, both about the OP's motive and about what being under fire can do to you, though Ill openly admit Ive never been there and pray I never will be.

That said, when as a LEO, you take the job, (as far as Im concerned) youre called to a higher standard and if that means taking fire to protect civilians, so be it.

Kind of like a story a buddy who was in the Corps in Viet Nam told me. (paraphrased) ""We were pinned down and they were walking mortars in on us and using civilians as shields and we couldnt shoot the civilians and a bunch of guys died because we just dont do that shit."

While tough, I dont see their actions a justifiable though no doubt a review board will.

 

[OldSalty]

Bad situation. And for full disclosure I have never been in that situation.

However, IMO very very few subjects are beyond reproach and this certainly isnt one...

Hindsight is often 20/20 from the comfort of the armchair but that in itself doesnt invalidate the opinions of the quarterback.

Doesnt seem like the jackers were going to get very far. Wonder if the jackers would have started shooting so quickly if not being swarmed...plus its hard/impossible to tell who shot first...which I think is important.

Seems that perhaps letting the jackers get some seperation from cover....before engaging to have cleaner LOS.

I am not sure the amount of lead was warranted. Especially given the amount of people moving in and out of the immediate danger zone. Seemed a tad reckless given the initial contact.

Poor UPS driver lad was trying to get away. From that view it looks like he did almost get away...until, well...

I would hope in most cases there would be abundance of caution when it is known or even plausible that there is a civilian in the mix...from my limited view in these videos I saw no abundace of caution/restraint excersized.

Lastly, this is just what I see in these vids.

As more information is made avaialble then I hold the right to change or not change my opinion based on credibilty/content of said information or lack there-of.

 

[Supersubes]

I'm guessing an eight foot "group" at 25 yards based on the strike at the top of the truck to the bottom.
Can anyone estimate the MOA at 100 yards?



(If you receive a government pension or expect to receive one you better stop reading now.)

View attachment 7197343

Yes it is clear from this video the the UPS driver was murdered by police while he was trying to escape the truck.

Rules of engagement:

1. Shoot anyone who seems to be involved in an incident. You can always offer grandiose apologies later.
2. Shoot anyone who resists your "God given" authority. Try to avoid being videoed.
3. If you feel it is prudent to shoot a "mouthy" suspect, be sure to yell "GUN!" first to justify the shooting.
4. If you do get caught "murdering" a suspect, don't worry, you fellow "heroes" will explain to the press and at
the subsequent trail why your actions were justified in your situation. Remember: We'll cover for you!
Don't worry how, we have significant resources, and only have to convince the masses, plus they'll forget soon.
5. New recruits: Yes sometimes we have to do horrible things. We don't usually enjoy it. But it is part of your
job if you want to get a paycheck and get a full pension after 20 years. The public doesn't understand the stresses
involved in maintaining the "thin blue line".
6. Lastly and always go home safely to YOUR family and children. Not like the weeping wives and children of those
unfortunate enough to get caught in friendly fire or the collateral damage.

Cut and paste the video not shown on the TV for the masses:



<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/377990719" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IF it is removed let me know I saved a copy...

If you feel this comment is slightly "unfair" don't complain to me. Write a letter to the victims family's why their husband and father was "killed"
during your engagement. Sometimes that is what you get for not being a "hero".

To the families: I am deeply sorry for your love ones being violently killed in such a negligent act. My prayers are all I can offer you now...
My God comfort your wounded hearts. 2 corinthians 1:3 May your families receive justice. Romans 12:19

Did it occur to you that there were multiple shooters, beginning on the far side of the truck, and the group you were trying to measure was mostly made up of pass throughs. It was then added to by officers on the near side. Your assessment of the situation is a joke.




It’s terrible what happened to the UPS driver, no denying that.

 

[OldSalty]

Did it occur to you that there were multiple shooters, beginning on the far side of the truck, and the group you were trying to measure was mostly made up of pass throughs. It was then added to by officers on the near side. Your assessment of the situation is a joke.

It’s terrible what happened to the UPS driver, no denying that.

Which ones look like exits to you?

 

[Supersubes]

Which ones look like exits to you?

Did you not see all the shooters on both side of the van? Doesn’t matter who made what holes. They weren’t shooting at a bullseye, like the OP seems to think.

 

[ubettcha]

It always sucks to see innocent's lose their lives due to scumbags. Thoughts and prayers to the families who are suffering.

I train a bunch of LEO's this time of year. Most need help to requailify with their service weapon. To think they are going to be great in a gunfight is unrealistic at best. The gun guys and swat team yes they have the training and shoot most don't. Add in people shooting back at them and you get the results we often see which always needs improvement.
Instead of bitching or making big claims volunteer your time to teach them. I've seen and heard alot since I started doing this. Get them into a pistol league or idpa something that gets them to the range. Speak up in person not on a forum or fakebook.
In this particular community many have been on the 2way range. That means we as a community can do something about it so get it done. Pissin and moanin gets us nowhere

 

[OldSalty]

Doesn’t matter who made what holes.

Of course it does.

 

[Bullfrog08]

You have 30 posts and have been here 6 months, and this is the shit you bring here to post?

Just exactly what is your specific goal in posting this video and your dumbass commentary? You gonna lead an assault on the precinct? Are you recruiting for your own militia group? What? Have you ever been in anything remotely resembling this situation?

When the guy stuck his head out and started firing at the cops at 00:19, exactly what would have been your enlightened course of action against a moving barricaded target that is sending rounds at you? I really wanna know.

Whats is the time frame and post count required to post such things? I thought theses topics were off limits regardless of either?

 

[LawnMM]

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Whats is the time frame and post count required to post such things? I thought theses topics were off limits regardless of either?

There is no number.

But people new to the site, who haven't contributed fuck all else, who are zealous to put thier inexperience an desire to go full retard on full display, should tread fucking lightly IMO.

There are an abundance of motherfuckers that I disagree with here...but they have paid thier dues.

 

[casualfornow]

I Think i would have preferred to take me chances with the kidnappers, in this case.

 

[Downtown]

I agree with the posters who say armchair quarterbacking is easy and hindsight is perfect. I would tread lightly on this subject, Causalfornow, if you enjoy this forum.

 

[casualfornow]

I guess you're right. I suppose when fellow Americans get shot to death needlessly best thing to do is close your eyes and walk away quietly.

I'll try to post in the "Sheep Pit" in the future.

 

[MosesTheTank]

It always sucks to see innocent's lose their lives due to scumbags. Thoughts and prayers to the families who are suffering.

I train a bunch of LEO's this time of year. Most need help to requailify with their service weapon. To think they are going to be great in a gunfight is unrealistic at best. The gun guys and swat team yes they have the training and shoot most don't. Add in people shooting back at them and you get the results we often see which always needs improvement.
Instead of bitching or making big claims volunteer your time to teach them. I've seen and heard alot since I started doing this. Get them into a pistol league or idpa something that gets them to the range. Speak up in person not on a forum or fakebook.
In this particular community many have been on the 2way range. That means we as a community can do something about it so get it done. Pissin and moanin gets us nowhere

Just gonna jump right on this bandwagon...

Two sisters former FBI, grandfather former captain on a large city police force, cousin DEA, gobs of associates who are current LEO. The only 2 non SWAT/FBI Sniper Team LEO friends that I have who are competent with any gun, and both are master/GM USPSA shooters, are 100% self-funded to get to that level. Both have had to create side businesses to pay for all the ammo, travel, etc. to get to the level they are. I think on occasion they will get an issued vehicle to travel in, and that is about it.

I spent yesterday with my niece (GA state LEO) and a buddy (GBI) get ready for their quals that occur this week. I paid for every single round.

IMO their were more than a few mistakes well before the shooting started. I am betting everyone of them occurred not because training went out the window, it's because they never had training to begin with. Very few people are willing to pay for it. But an awful lot of people expect all sorts of ninja skills when shit goes south.

Very few cops are really gun guys, certainly not in the sense that many on this forum are. But given the opportunity to shoot and train more often they will do it if given the opportunity. I have never heard of a PD that has a real training program for regular cops nor does it seem many are willing to pay to send them somewhere.

This incident will do nothing to change that. Nothing.

Maybe 20% of the 9mm and 40 S&W that rolls out of my Dillon 1050 is earmarked for me. All of us who belong to clubs can pool resources and make a few more friends in blue.

 

[7.62willdo]

Gentleman you are forgetting about the protected class on this sight you can trash military and or civilians but not the protected class which is exactly the problem....... in the northwest we see this with the local Indian population they don’t follow the law regarding fishing, driving etc. you know why? Because there is no accountability. Until there is they wil continue these behaviors. If you knew you couldn’t get a ticket would you obey the speed limit?

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

Gentleman you are forgetting about the protected class on this sight(...)

OTA?

 

[alpine44]

It always sucks to see innocent's lose their lives due to scumbags. Thoughts and prayers to the families who are suffering.

I train a bunch of LEO's this time of year. Most need help to requailify with their service weapon. To think they are going to be great in a gunfight is unrealistic at best. The gun guys and swat team yes they have the training and shoot most don't. Add in people shooting back at them and you get the results we often see which always needs improvement.
Instead of bitching or making big claims volunteer your time to teach them. I've seen and heard alot since I started doing this. Get them into a pistol league or idpa something that gets them to the range. Speak up in person not on a forum or fakebook.
In this particular community many have been on the 2way range. That means we as a community can do something about it so get it done. Pissin and moanin gets us nowhere

Let me take a first stab at trying to help regular LEOs (not SWAT) reading this and related threads.

1) In order to be effective instead of counter-productive you need marksmanship skills. Solidly passing the FBI handgun qualification is the absolute, bare minimum. I would hold myself to acing it after sprinting 400 yards and then shooting the course at night with a flashlight. I mention the FBI qual because it is easy to set up and to score. Tom Givens has called it "barely a sobriety test".

If you have trouble passing after several attempts, work with a personal instructor who can identify bad habits like shot anticipation, etc. You are not stupid, your subconscious is throwing a wrench in the gear work.

2) Next step is to assure that you have access to these skills under moderate stress. Compete in IDPA or similar matches. You will be surprised how just the beep of a buzzer turns brains into mush. Compete in an attire and with tools that are close to your duty outfit. Do not worry about loosing against the gamers with their race holsters and guns. Measure progress against your last match/score.

3) Then, you need to condition yourself for a 2-way range where the perps might be shooting at you. The only realistic option for this is scenario based training with Simunition/UTM guns. As a man, wear only a T-shirt plus the mandatory helmet, neck and groin protector. Pain is an excellent teacher and you want to drive the pucker factor up and learn to control your fear. As a woman you have to weigh the need for protecting your breasts against the need for a sufficient stress level. Performing while being scared is the whole point of the exercise.

Rinse and repeat often as these skills are perishable.

4) Finally, you need to develop a strategy with your colleagues/department. Running in there guns blazing without coordination is a recipe for fratricide and/or collateral damage even if you have the marksman skills and the control over your fear/anger.

Remember, in encounters like this, we do not automatically rise to the demands of the situation we fall to the level of relevant training.

 

[Ken Burton]

When working in Seattle on a Transit tunnel, one of the gate guards was a Lt. with SPD.
After some time pitching sh*** back and forth and our friendship began getting closer, we were swapping stories about sh*** happening.
He told me of a guy robbing a store and they had caught , put him in the back of the car and as the police were heading to the station he pulled out a gun and started shooting, driver returned fire and neither was hit while MTing their weapons, Lt told me Most cops are not that familiar with their weapons.
We just laughed and went on to another BS session.

 

[ubettcha]

Let me take a first stab at trying to help regular LEOs (not SWAT) reading this and related threads.

1) In order to be effective instead of counter-productive you need marksmanship skills. Solidly passing the FBI handgun qualification is the absolute, bare minimum. I would hold myself to acing it after sprinting 400 yards and then shooting the course at night with a flashlight. I mention the FBI qual because it is easy to set up and to score. Tom Givens has called it "barely a sobriety test". If you have trouble passing, work with a personal instructor who can identify bad habits like shot anticipation, etc.

2) Next step is to assure that you have access to these skills under moderate stress. Compete in IDPA or similar matches. You will be surprised how just the beep of a buzzers turns brains into mush. Compete in an attire and with tools that are close to your duty outfit. Do not worry about loosing against the gamers. Measure progress against your last match/score.

3) Then, you need to condition yourself for a 2-way range (i.e. the perps might be shooting at you). The only realistic option for this is scenario based training with Simunition/UTM guns. Be a man and wear only a T-shirt plus the mandatory helmet, neck and groin protector. Pain is an excellent teacher and you want to drive the pucker factor up and learn to control your fear.

Rinse and repeat often as these skills are perishable.

4) Finally, you need to develop a strategy with your colleagues/department. Running in there guns blazing without coordination is a recipe for fratricide and/or collateral damage even if you have the marksman skills and the control over your fear/anger.

Remember in encounters like this, we do not rise to the demands of the situation we fall to the level of relevant training.

80% of the guys and ladies I get cannot hit a paper plate at 5yds with a full 15rd mag. I agree with the FBI course but that isn't going to happen without a complete cultural change from the leo's or the taxpayers paying for it.

 

[alpine44]

When working in Seattle on a Transit tunnel, one of the gate guards was a Lt. with SPD.
After some time pitching sh*** back and forth and our friendship began getting closer, we were swapping stories about sh*** happening.
He told me of a guy robbing a store and they had caught , put him in the back of the car and as the police were heading to the station he pulled out a gun and started shooting, driver returned fire and neither was hit while MTing their weapons, Lt told me Most cops are not that familiar with their weapons.
We just laughed and went on to another BS session.

If you miss that often at that range, you have developed some really bad habits. Today's handguns point so well that it is not a surprise when a toddler picks up an 'unsupervised' gun and accidentally shoots a family member.

I have also observed that most novice shooters hit with the first round they fire. Then they get scared of the gun or overthink the whole procedure and it's downhill from there.

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

What we should all take away from this situation is that it is the responsibility of each individual first and foremost to maintain their own lives against mortal threats. If you have to count on the police you are already shit out of luck, granted that when you do it should be a grace and not a curse. That's what all these threads are about in the end.

 

[alpine44]

80% of the guys and ladies I get cannot hit a paper plate at 5yds with a full 15rd mag. I agree with the FBI course but that isn't going to happen without a complete cultural change from the leo's or the taxpayers paying for it.

Just ask the LEOs how they feel about hiring a contractor who does not know how to use the tools on his belt. I also do not think that crates of ammo are needed to get someone to shoot reasonably well. And I would bet that many of your trouble students would get 15 hits with a SIRT (laser) gun. Some of them will even hit from retention (not aimed with sights). Let me go through some scenarios here to explain.

My 16 year old nephew passed the FBI qual on the first attempt. When not on vacation, he lives in Germany where he cannot even touch a handgun let alone practice with it. He wanted to participate in our weekly tactical arts group, so he had to qualify. I had taken him to the range a few days before and showed him sight alignment and trigger squeeze (plus safety and administrative procedures), explaining the how and why as we progressed. He did everything as instructed, got hits and never screwed himself up or assumed he would know a 'better' way to get the job done. I have also done some technical diving with him in later years and know that he has an outstanding control over his emotions and muscle movements.

My wife OTOH, an excellent rifle shooter, jerks a pistol trigger and pushes the gun forward/down in fear of bang, blast, and recoil. I as well as other instructors have given up any hope and suggested that it would be better for her to throw the gun at the threat. She simply has no control over her subconscious fears an cannot override the instructions of the lizard brain. I'll get her a suppressed .22 and have her watch some hitmen movies. That will do it.

Aside from fear reflexes we have to overcome the desire to perfectly time the shot and we need to be able to isolate the movements of our fingers and hands. I typically address this together and have the student aim the gun while I manipulate their trigger.

People who cannot hit the broadside of a barn are suddenly marksmen because they don't have the chance to be their worst enemy. Then, I make it clear to them, that I never saw whether their aim was great or not so good. I did not care, I just squeezed the trigger.

Now, I let them aim their left thumb at the target, focus on the thumb, target fuzzy while they have to independently squeeze a fictitious trigger with the digit finger of their right hand that is hanging down in a relaxed posture. They squeeze until I say BANG. Do this a couple of times, paying attention that only the digit finger moves, not the other three - as good as possible.

Then we do the same but after saying BANG I slightly bump their left arm up. Focus stays on the thumb, back on target, trigger reset (they say Click), squeeze, BANG... Over and over again. Sounds silly but they internalize in slow motion the many different things that are going on. We are trying to separate the gentle, deliberate pull of the trigger from the quick and stronger reflex of our hands and arms in response to the recoil impulse.

Then we take the gun, bring it up to the target, holding it as tight as a firm handshake (no white knuckles), and slowly let the right finger do the work while the arms and hands keep the sights on the target until we hear BANG and see the sights lift.

I have seen plenty of people recover from trying to get too anal and 'timing' the perfect shot or from contracting many muscles together as if trigger pull and recoil response are the same thing. A couple of inert rounds mixed into their mags will identify any remaining problems.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I don’t always armchair quarterback on the interwebs, but when I do, I post in the Bear Pit.

That being said...those that fired without PID and a front sight post on a threat are fucked.

 

[Blutroop]

So hypothetically speaking. if you are an innocent bystander in your car and an officer is shooting stray bullets into your car, is it justified to shoot said officer in self defense?

ANY time Any one is pointing a gun in your direction is time to take cover and prepare to return fire. God is the one who gave me the obligation to protect my family.. only God can take it away.

 

[Blutroop]

FYI guys, there’s rules against trashing cops on this site..........

Not saying anyone is wrong, but this is a good way to get banned.

Pretty sure there are rules against murder too...

 

[TxWelder35]

As a civilians we are responsible for every single bullet that leaves our gun. I hope these cops are treated the same. They should have stopped shooting immediately upon seeing the ups driver trying to get out. Their job is to protect and serve. There job was to get that guy out alive. Not pose a bigger danger to the public than the robbers. A lot of those cops should be charged with reckless endangerment and man slaughter. I know I would be if I as a civilian did what they did.

 

[OldSalty]

While shitty out come no doubt, the UPS driver was dead the moment they car jacked his delivery truck. Any other belief is just not realistic.

Thats not what I saw...

 

[Threadcutter308]

Pretty sure there are rules against murder too...

Pretty sure you don’t realize the Hide is a private business entity. Lowlight owns it, Lowlight’s rules. I’m just trying to help you obstinate ones from getting banned.

You’re on your own.......just spare me the snarky comments in the meantime.

Good luck

 

[ubettcha]

I'll bet your trouble students would get 15 hits with a SIRT (laser) gun. Some of them will even hit from retention (not aimed with sights).

My 16 year old nephew passed the FBI qual on the first attempt. When not on vacation, he lives in Germany where he cannot even touch a handgun let alone practice with it. He wanted to participate in our weekly tactical arts group, so he had to qualify. I had taken him to the range a few days before and showed him sight alignment and trigger squeeze (plus safety and administrative procedures). He did it as instructed, got hits and never screwed himself up or assumed he would know a 'better' way to get the job done. I have also done some technical diving with him in later years and know that he has an outstanding control over his emotions and body movements.

My wife OTOH, an excellent rifle shooter, jerks a pistol trigger and pushes the gun forward/down in fear of bang, blast, and recoil. I as well as other instructors have given up any hope and joked that it would be better for her to throw the gun at the threat. She simply has no control over her subconscious fears an cannot suppress the instructions of our lizzard brain. I'll get her a suppressed .22 and have her watch some hitmen movies.

When my hit ratio drops, I fire a couple cylinders of full house loads from my 44 Mag. Slowly and deliberately, savoring the pain as well as the hits. After my brain was forced to 'survive' that and has filed it under positive outcome, I am good with the mouse guns for a while.

It's all in your head, unless you are legally blind or have a physical condition that interferes with hand/eye coordination or fine motor skills.

They shoot my sirt's more than you can imagine. All but 3 out of 100 are troubled as a rule. Last year I ran 140 through my course but I was out of commission till January. I've already run 110 this year in 3 weeks. I hope it grows like last year but I know most of the Depts. are on a 2 yr schedule so have to wait n see.
Your wife can be fixed. Have her pick out a place on the target. Then have her just point the gun no sights. just dry fire without using the sights to just keep the gun on the target. Once she has 10 or 20 in a row load one round again no sights just point. 10 dry fires then one round till she can do 2. Getting her a 22 to shoot will do wonders

 

[2ndamendfan]

Thats not what I saw...

You are clearly not understanding. There was almost 0 chance of the driver coming out alive.

Same as the passengers on flight 93. As I stated before and you chose not to include in your quote.

You can choose to die on your knees or you can die standing up and fighting. The UPS driver did what he felt he needed to do, but the outcome was preordained once the kidnapping/car jacking happened.

If you rely on the government for anything what so ever, especially your own safety well then you are pissing up a rope.

 

[OldSalty]

You are clearly not understanding. There was almost 0 chance of the driver coming out alive.

I generally shy away from absolutes when so few things are...absolute.

Preordained?

You may believe this, but there really isnt a way to know. Perhaps the chances were low, but thats not what you stated.

Otherwise, I do agree with what you stated after...about relying on the govt.

All good 2Afan, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Supersubes]

As a civilians we are responsible for every single bullet that leaves our gun. I hope these cops are treated the same. They should have stopped shooting immediately upon seeing the ups driver trying to get out. Their job is to protect and serve. There job was to get that guy out alive. Not pose a bigger danger to the public than the robbers. A lot of those cops should be charged with reckless endangerment and man slaughter. I know I would be if I as a civilian did what they did.

So much wrong here. Where do I start? Go learn a little about the duties of a cop, and the relevant factors that would go into a situation like this, because you don’t get it at this point. You’re also may be a little foggy on how the law would be applied to you as a citizen in a self defense situation.

 

[Blutroop]

Pretty sure you don’t realize the Hide is a private business entity. Lowlight owns it, Lowlight’s rules. I’m just trying to help you obstinate ones from getting banned.

You’re on your own.......just spare me the snarky comments in the meantime.

Good luck

I don’t badmouth cops but I will badmouth any murderer I see. I am well aware of how lowlight sides with Leo and I was active on here when he changed his policy to no Leo posts. Im not the op and I didn’t badmouth any Leo. If ya don’t want any “snarky” comments from the likes of me then pm the op instead of commenting on a open forum.. I’m a equal opportunity commenter.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I don’t badmouth cops but I will badmouth any murderer I see. I am well aware of how lowlight sides with Leo and I was active on here when he changed his policy to no Leo posts. Im not the op and I didn’t badmouth any Leo. If ya don’t want any “snarky” comments from the likes of me then pm the op instead of commenting on a open forum.. I’m a equal opportunity commenter.

Actually, it's no longer worth the bother.

 

[Blutroop]

What I want to know is how this was able to happen on a ups truck? I’m sure ups has a no gun policy on their truck.. just saying..