Good stuff, thank you for doing this. Gotta day I’m a little let down if the Leupy is it’s closest competition...
Rifle Scopes Leica PRS 5-30×56 with PRB Reticle
- Thread starter dghboy315
- Start date
I think it's interesting that in the original presser and media photos, Austin Orgain is quoted and appears to have played some role in the design/development/testing. Yet the photos from his win at this weekends CCC PRS match, he's still shooting a Tangent Theta...
So is it most comparable to the Mark 5 as far as the scope is concerned or just as far as price? I didn't understand what you meant by that.
If you could afford to buy Tangents would you use a free Bushnell just because it was free? Some things are worth paying for...
I was under an impression that Austin was sponsored by Leica. I do not know what the terms of the agreement are, but I know a few sponsored people who will shoot with Tangents when they think noone is looking. I have a TT 5-25x56 with Gen 3 XR, so I understand why.
ILya
I am only talking about price for now. It is too early to have anything definite in terms of where the Leica PRS fits quality-wise.
It is exactly the same size as Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56 and elevation turret design is very similar to the locking turret on the latest Stryker and EOTech 5-25x50. Someone commented on that on one of my Instagram posts, so I went and looked.
I have no idea what to make out of that, to be honest. The optics look a little different from the Stryker I have and Leica has more FOV, so it is definitely not the same scope like I have seen insinuated. Maybe there is some shared mechanical DNA? I do not know. I asked.
So far, I like the scope and dislike the reticle. It is a tree reticle that makes me want to dial exclusively. It does have good turrets and they seem to track well, so that's not a bad thing per se.
ILya
I can induce CA under the right conditions, but it is generally very well controlled.
ILya
Anybody! I've seen them sell out on EO, and figured someone here is playing with one...
Looking very much forward to your review Ilya, I know it takes time.
Meanwhile, hoping for teasers from the membership during this lull.
I really think this could be my next rimfire match scope, but will probably have to see the reticle in person first.
Looking very much forward to your review Ilya, I know it takes time.
Meanwhile, hoping for teasers from the membership during this lull.
I really think this could be my next rimfire match scope, but will probably have to see the reticle in person first.
New Mexico is on lockdown, so all I can do for now is look at glass and check tracking without recoil. All the ranges are closed.
ILya
ILya
Is the PRB center circle growing on you at all Ilya, or not so much?
I first got into LR rifle stuff when I lived in NM, a great place to escape into BLM land...
Glad to hear tracking is on, how's the tooless turret mechanism working--feel solid or weak? All metal?
Thanks for the lock-down update!
I first got into LR rifle stuff when I lived in NM, a great place to escape into BLM land...
Glad to hear tracking is on, how's the tooless turret mechanism working--feel solid or weak? All metal?
Thanks for the lock-down update!
Would really like to be back on my old farm right now, only 5 acres but had my own private 100y rangeYou are welcome to drive up to VA and shot on my farmWe remain open.
Bump for this thread.
Someone anyone care to way in on glass?
Short version..........come on throw us a carrot!
Better then Vortex razor G2, Leupold Mark 5, Kahles K525i?
Someone anyone care to way in on glass?
Short version..........come on throw us a carrot!
Better then Vortex razor G2, Leupold Mark 5, Kahles K525i?
The center circle is not my favourtite feature, but I can live with it.
The tree itself give me problems. The reticle is kinda weird in that there is a ton of different aming points and that is sorta nonintutive to me. I have been staring at it for over a month now and it is not growing on me one bit.
Primary aiming point is a circle, so you are aiming with an open spot. Not great for shooting gorups, but works fine on plates.
Wind holds if you dial elevation are various 0.2 mrad hashmarks on the primary stadia and we are all reasonably used to that.
Once you get below the primary, weird things start happening.
Odd mrad wind holds are a regular small crosshair or a dot depending on where your holdover is.
Even mrad wind holds are a small x or a dot depending on where your holdover is.
Half-mrad wind holds are a small floating vertical hashmark.
Some full mrad holds are small numbers, which is useful , but that ends up being one more aiming point.
When all is said and done you have six or seven different aiming points and if I need to hold between them I have to figure out where the middle is. I am always 0.1 to 0.2 mrad off with this reticle somehow.
Then there is a the lower portion of the tree that gets thicker once you are below 10 mrad of hold and has those weird striations going all the way out to the edges of the FOV every 10 mrad.
Aside from the fact that I do not understand why most of that tree below 10 mrad is there at all, making it thicker is simply counterproductive. I dial down when I do not have a particularly steady shooting position, so I really want the primary aiming point to stand out. Because the bottom portion of the tree is thicker and has those wings, it is quite distracting.
It is as if the reticle was designed by a committee in order to be different for the sake of being different.
I am sure some people will like it. Reticle are personal, but if I were buying one, I'd go with their Ballistic reticle
ILya
As I work on a proper review, here are some comments on the optics and mechanics.
The mechanical design is clearly related to the LOW made scopes like the 4.5-30x56 Delta Stryker and my best guess is that LOW makes a good number of mechanical parts for Leica.
I pressed Leica folks quite a bit on this to get the full story and they are saying that optical design is theirs, assembly is done by them in Germany and a good number of mechanics are sourced from Japan. That correlates to what I see, so I am inclined to believe that they simply took existing and proven to be reliable chassis from LOW, re-designed the optics and tweaked the turrets and some other mechanics. That is a pretty good way to get Leica optics to the market with a somewhat reasonable price tag.
Optical design clearly looks different with better FOV, depth of field and contrast than the native LOW design. I have a Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56 here that I like a lot, but side-by-side Leica is better optically. They eyepiece is definitely substantially different and I think it goes well beyond that.
Optomechanically, I like the scope quite a bit, so I will probably end up adding it to my list of recommendation when equipped with the Ballistic reticle. PRB reticle is not my thing as I described above.
ILya
The mechanical design is clearly related to the LOW made scopes like the 4.5-30x56 Delta Stryker and my best guess is that LOW makes a good number of mechanical parts for Leica.
I pressed Leica folks quite a bit on this to get the full story and they are saying that optical design is theirs, assembly is done by them in Germany and a good number of mechanics are sourced from Japan. That correlates to what I see, so I am inclined to believe that they simply took existing and proven to be reliable chassis from LOW, re-designed the optics and tweaked the turrets and some other mechanics. That is a pretty good way to get Leica optics to the market with a somewhat reasonable price tag.
Optical design clearly looks different with better FOV, depth of field and contrast than the native LOW design. I have a Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56 here that I like a lot, but side-by-side Leica is better optically. They eyepiece is definitely substantially different and I think it goes well beyond that.
Optomechanically, I like the scope quite a bit, so I will probably end up adding it to my list of recommendation when equipped with the Ballistic reticle. PRB reticle is not my thing as I described above.
ILya
Thanks Ilya for the insight on optical quality.
I've been looking to pick up another scope (PRS capable) that would deliver a little better optical quality then a Razor G2.
This looks like it may fit the bill well.
I'll take another look at the ballistic reticle before making a decision.
I don't have any real experience behind tree type reticle's so the PRB has some appeal to me at least from a simplicity stand point.
I've been looking to pick up another scope (PRS capable) that would deliver a little better optical quality then a Razor G2.
This looks like it may fit the bill well.
I'll take another look at the ballistic reticle before making a decision.
I don't have any real experience behind tree type reticle's so the PRB has some appeal to me at least from a simplicity stand point.
Illumination is done well. If you run it too bright there is a little spillover, but not too much.
ILya
Hard to say. Tangent is better than the Leica PRS, Kahles K525i is worse. I think optically it is in the same general ballpark as ATACR and Mark 5 although with a somewhat unique character.
It is very competitive in the under $3k market and more compact than most other options. I do not have Minox on hand to compare it with, but if I were to make a guess, I'd say ZP5 is a touch better in terms of optics.
ILya
Thanks for the review, just ordered from doug but with the simple L-4A reticle.
Mile High is getting my AI AX 6mm Creedmoor ready to ship and I will have him throw in a Spuhr mount.
Doug has given me good price on S&B when he was a Dealer and Leica M-E rangefinder last year.
Wish he was a March Dealer.
-Richard
Mile High is getting my AI AX 6mm Creedmoor ready to ship and I will have him throw in a Spuhr mount.
Doug has given me good price on S&B when he was a Dealer and Leica M-E rangefinder last year.
Wish he was a March Dealer.
-Richard
Tono, fantastic job, I’ll be happy to read your reviews anytime. Very concise with pics to match. I love that Leica puts the hex wrench in the turret, the new Kahles offers the same. I’ve gone to the range before and have misplaced my Allen’s and can’t adjust anything - royal pain so I appreciate the attention to detail in these areas. Scope looks promising. I used to have an MWS with 20” barrel that I thought was long, your 24” must double as a pole vault
Ok, I am looking for a new scope for nrl22. I'm torn between this and the zc527. Both have the adjustment and close focus I want and I don't hate the prb reticle but I do like the Zc527 mpct2 option better. Is the zc527 worth the extra 1k? Is it that much better? Especially now with the deal with a free spuhr mount I am really torn.
Go ZCO if you have the coin, you know you'll always wonder... I would! ZCO is a class above this scope.
I'm gonna wait on the Leica to mix the best of both their PRB and ballistic reticles. I really like the rest of the scope design, but I can't jump on these reticle designs. Really like the tooless zero shift turrets.
To me, the center circle in the PRB seems to wash out below 18x where I shoot most, at least in Ilya's video, and the Ballistic reticle is missing .2 mil elevation marks I want, and a tree, and center dot.
Good problems to mull over while riding out a pandemic in the first world.
But Leica, if you're listening, please nix that .01 thin line .1 diameter center hole and drop a .04 or .03 Dot in there, then unify all that schizo x + • stuff in the tree, then we're G2G! I really like the basic windage and elevation marks on the PRB otherwise.
Screams one customer into the void...
I'm gonna wait on the Leica to mix the best of both their PRB and ballistic reticles. I really like the rest of the scope design, but I can't jump on these reticle designs. Really like the tooless zero shift turrets.
To me, the center circle in the PRB seems to wash out below 18x where I shoot most, at least in Ilya's video, and the Ballistic reticle is missing .2 mil elevation marks I want, and a tree, and center dot.
Good problems to mull over while riding out a pandemic in the first world.
But Leica, if you're listening, please nix that .01 thin line .1 diameter center hole and drop a .04 or .03 Dot in there, then unify all that schizo x + • stuff in the tree, then we're G2G! I really like the basic windage and elevation marks on the PRB otherwise.
Screams one customer into the void...
Leica is no more a German company than Honda is a Japanese company. Both are multinationals more than able to design and manufacture product to their respective highest standards anywhere they choose in the world.
Honda's most expensive car ever was designed mostly in the USA and is made exclusively in Marysville, Ohio for sale around the world. Definitely not within its "tradition".
Already discussed on previous pages. I'm more of a nationalist than some but understand that many companies outsource to other countries while maintaining quality control. Seeing a Vortex AMG with "made in Antarctica" stamped on it may say nothing about the quality of the product, but would just rub me the wrong way, a big part of the appeal of the AMG line is that it is "Made in the USA".
You don't get it. You don't get it at all.
Honda isn't outsourcing its vehicle manufacturing when it builds them somewhere outside of Japan. Honda is Honda, there, here, and everywhere. Same company, same training, same standards, same systems, same everything. Leica is the same way, and so are a shitload more companies.
Manufacturing is what I do for a living and that includes five years working alongside Honda as a supplier. You're not going to teach me anything about this.
Sorry? Where did I ever tell you I wanted to "teach you" about anything? But I would disagree with you when you say the same "everything" because it is not the same people, meaning the people from the country where the product is made benefit. The reason I like Vortex and AMG is because it is Made here in the USA, which means US citizens were used in the manufacture and production of the product, it also means they sourced products here in the USA which means other USA business benefit from them and more US citizens benefit as a result. Using your scenario above, you're saying I shouldn't have any problem if Vortex builds an AMG plant in Timbuktu because it's still Vortex, here, there and everywhere, same company, same... and so forth, but the fact is they are employing people outside the United States to do so. I told you, I am somewhat of a nationalist, more so than I am a globalist and I like to see companies benefit their own communities/countries. Leica is traditionally a "German" company, so what I meant is it would be nice to see them keep it within their borders and have their own people working on the product. This is not a popular opinion in today's "global" economy and sometimes simply cannot be done and I understand that. I also own plenty of products that were made elsewhere, but am I not allowed to appreciate it when a company chooses to benefit their own community/country when they manufacture a product, like Vortex did with the AMG?
a little offtopic: it is not only about "nationality" factor, but people´s mind and work habit. If the exact one scope will be made in Japan, Germany / Austria or US, I have no problem to buy it, while being made in ******* (you can fill some countries from Eastern Europe or Asia for example), I would not ever buy them. Why? Because I know they do not do the work in the same quality and precision as western countries mentioned above. One example: HK MP5 and G3 made by Heckler Koch in DE vs. the same guns (made on the same tooling machines - loaned by HK) made by MKE or POF, do you think will give you the same quality? Hell no. Just my POV.
Leica loves the little read Dot!
It’s great advertising for them.
Leica fans, not so much.
This Leica M-E Digital in anthracite was 1 of 750 recently made and all sold out quickly.
Scope is the PRS with L4-a reticle.
Usually Leica introduces a camera with the Red dot and then later comes out with another model with either the Dot in black or no Dot.
We shall see!
FYI, pic taken with iPhone 11 Pro which I use more and more.
Leica M-E does not have 4K video which the Pro has.
It’s great advertising for them.
Leica fans, not so much.
This Leica M-E Digital in anthracite was 1 of 750 recently made and all sold out quickly.
Scope is the PRS with L4-a reticle.
Usually Leica introduces a camera with the Red dot and then later comes out with another model with either the Dot in black or no Dot.
We shall see!
FYI, pic taken with iPhone 11 Pro which I use more and more.
Leica M-E does not have 4K video which the Pro has.
Attachments
Awaiting delivery of AI AX 6mm Creedmoor next week to mount.
Other than that, typical Leica quality, matches my bionocs and 82mm spotting scope.
Post when mounted and shot.
Other than that, typical Leica quality, matches my bionocs and 82mm spotting scope.
Post when mounted and shot.
D
Deleted member 121493
Guest
In absolute terms, I think ZCO is a better scope. How they compare in terms of value for the money is hard to say.
In the time it was here, the Leica really grew on my, other than the reticle. The more I used the scope the less I liked the reticle. I sent it back to Leica, but I will re-visit a model with the Ballistic reticle in a month or two.
Optically, the scope was very good and while it will not make me sell my Tangents, it is going to compete well with pretty much everything this side of TT, ZCO, Minox and S&B. For $2700, I think it is very good and the fairly compact overall size is also a good thing.
The one I had tracked well. I'll check tracking again on the other one I will be looking at and I'll keep tabs on how these do as more of them get out.
I think Leica needs a more conventional tree reticle in addition to the Ballistic reticle. Maybe, I'll sketch one out for them if they are open to suggestions. It will be very interesting to see how the PRS reticle does for them. I despise it, but I also despise Horus designs and they do well, so I could simply be wrong about this one.
ILya
You will create a better design than the PRB, not sure what Cal was thinking but that is just messy.
Leica: please cut and paste the dot and tree from the Minox MR4 onto the PRB vert and wind design.
Ilya (and any others that have had the chance to compare these in use)
Please confirm for me how you believe this Leica compares (optically and overall) to the Kahles with the SKMR3
-- both between the older 6-24 which is now on sale at the same price 3k>2700
as well as the current 5-25 that is 3300?
Thank you
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