Apologies: My MPA rifle has a min spec chamber and shows pressure signs around 1-1.2 gn lower than my sloppy chamber R700, so no point in publishing my load data. I always have to stop well below book max.
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
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Apologies: My MPA rifle has a min spec chamber and shows pressure signs around 1-1.2 gn lower than my sloppy chamber R700, so no point in publishing my load data. I always have to stop well below book max.
Thats good to hear. I have an MPA rifle and found this as well. Virgin Lapua brass fits perfect. 41 gr gets 2800 FPS.
Off topic i know: The MPA rifles shoot as well as they do (and is almost dominant in PRS now) because of their min spec chamber, and their ergonomics. Mine is a semi custom bought off the rack for a very good price (pre election year), with the West Texas Ordinance switch lug setup.
The result of the min spec chamber is that they shoot factory Hornady 140 ELDM very accurately (0.3-0.4” five shot groups in my rifle), which is quite impressive for factory ammo. Same performance from Berger 140 Hybrid factory ammo. Have seen dozens of groups in the ones and twos with hand loads, average group size around 0.25 to 0.3”, probably because of my own limitations.
IMHO the MPA bolt action rifles are very good value for money.
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I load 44.8g Superformance when using 147g ELD-M projectiles. Its about 125FPS faster than the 147g ELD-M Hornady factory ammo and any other powder i've seen load data for. My COAL is 2.810" and this gives me .035" jump and still fits the magazine fine. My rifle is a RPR that is all stock with no mods and can shoot low .4 to low .5 MOA at 1000 yards as long as the wind isn't more than about 5 or 6 MPH. I have H4350, but according to the load data i've seen for it doesn't even come close to Superformance, and I think the H4350 is better suited for my WinMag and bigger calibers like that.
Have you noticed sueperformance being very sensitive to temperature changes?
You will notice a fluctuation in dial-up changes with any sizable temperature changes like with most powders. But if the temp change is gradual, and you are shooting week to week as it occurs, it seems very little.
I observe less than 20fps change in velocity over a 40+°c temperature swing with H4350. Most of the time that’s inside the margin of noise.
6.5 CM
Load Data
Bullet - Sierra 142gr HPBT Match King
OAL - 2.810”
Case - Hornady
Primer - Federal 200
Powder - H4350 - 42gr
5 shot group. 3/8” at 100yards
D
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140 vld
41.5 h4350
.5 moa
41.5 h4350
.5 moa
When H4350 was in short supply I developed loads for H4831sc and later RL16. All three worked well, but I'm sticking with RL16 for now.
Fired and sized Hornady brass - CCI 200 Tikka T3x CTR, 24"barrel 1:8
H4831sc - 142g SMK - 45.5g - 2689fps
H4831sc - 140g ELDM - 43.5g - 2712fps
H4831sc - 147g ELDM - 45.1g - 2711fps
RL16 - 140g ELDM - 42.1 - 2737fps
YRMV Pic is 7 shot groups with the RL16 during load development, (except lower right which is 14 shots when I forgot to move to the center)..
Fired and sized Hornady brass - CCI 200 Tikka T3x CTR, 24"barrel 1:8
H4831sc - 142g SMK - 45.5g - 2689fps
H4831sc - 140g ELDM - 43.5g - 2712fps
H4831sc - 147g ELDM - 45.1g - 2711fps
RL16 - 140g ELDM - 42.1 - 2737fps
YRMV Pic is 7 shot groups with the RL16 during load development, (except lower right which is 14 shots when I forgot to move to the center)..
Attachments
Here is some data from a barrel near the end of its life and one at the beginning. RL-16 data is right before barrel was pulled.
24" 1:8" factory Savage barrel (near end of useful life, over than 2,500 rounds)
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (2x)
Federal 210
42.5gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
0.050" Jump
2,734 FPS average velocity
ES 18
SD 7
Hornady 140gr ELD-M (factory seconds)
S&B brass (2x)
Federal 210
42.0gr RL-16
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
0.050" Jump
2,781 FPS average velocity
ES 34
SD 14
26" 1:8" Criterion MTU (new barrel, less than 150 rounds)
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (3x)
Federal 210
42.0gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
2,756 FPS Average Velocity
ES 18
SD 9
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (3x)
Federal 210
42.5gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
2,798 FPS average velocity
ES 17
SD 8
24" 1:8" factory Savage barrel (near end of useful life, over than 2,500 rounds)
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (2x)
Federal 210
42.5gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
0.050" Jump
2,734 FPS average velocity
ES 18
SD 7
Hornady 140gr ELD-M (factory seconds)
S&B brass (2x)
Federal 210
42.0gr RL-16
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
0.050" Jump
2,781 FPS average velocity
ES 34
SD 14
26" 1:8" Criterion MTU (new barrel, less than 150 rounds)
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (3x)
Federal 210
42.0gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
2,756 FPS Average Velocity
ES 18
SD 9
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
Hornady brass (3x)
Federal 210
42.5gr H4350
2.800" COAL
2.180" CTBO
2,798 FPS average velocity
ES 17
SD 8
This may be a stupid question, but I need to ask it.
On the Hodgdon site, it lists H4350 with a 140gr Hornaday A max as compressed at 40.0gr. 2660fps.
IMR 4064 130gr bullet, 34.9gr max, 2585fps.
All the loads I'm seeing here are between 41.0 and 43.5gr of H4350, getting around 2800fps. Sameish velocity with the 130's.
Is this just the liability factor that seems to be built into all load data these days?
On the Hodgdon site, it lists H4350 with a 140gr Hornaday A max as compressed at 40.0gr. 2660fps.
IMR 4064 130gr bullet, 34.9gr max, 2585fps.
All the loads I'm seeing here are between 41.0 and 43.5gr of H4350, getting around 2800fps. Sameish velocity with the 130's.
Is this just the liability factor that seems to be built into all load data these days?
I’ve only been reloading for 3 years now but I believe the published data is getting more conservative as the years go by to cover their asses. But with that said each gun truly is different, and the whole reason I write this to you is if you’re going to be going over book max you NEED to learn how to read pressure signs in your brass. These pressure signs can be extremely subtle and it can be quite hard to see these subtle over pressure signs in your brass. So do your homework and know what to look for. An example, my MPA rifle in 6.5CM gets 2,808 FPS with just 41.0 gr of H4350. This is achieved with MPA’s min spec chamber dimension and less capacity Lapua brass. If you had an off the rack sloppy factory action and Hornady brass you may be able to work up into the 42-43 gr range. If I put 43gr in my rifle it would probably blow up.
But most important is what YOUR rifle is telling you and knowing what pressure signs look and feel like. And lastly sweet spot FPS wise is 2800, don’t go over 2850, and you may only get to 2750.
But most important is what YOUR rifle is telling you and knowing what pressure signs look and feel like. And lastly sweet spot FPS wise is 2800, don’t go over 2850, and you may only get to 2750.
For what it's worth, Hornady load data lists the following max loads for H4350:
42.8 grains for 129-130 grain bullets @ 2,700 FPS.
42.9 grains for 135 grain bullets @ 2,775 FPS.
41.5 grains for 140-143 grain bullets @ 2,700 FPS
My experience has been that published load data is generally conservative, but I never start with a load that exceeds the max. As NodakBarbarian mentioned max load is unique to your specific situation (rifle, brass, primer, environmentals, etc.)
A compressed load is different than max load. It is my understanding that, a compressed load is when the powder fills the case to the point that the bullet is compacting the powder when you seat it (you hear a crunch when seating the bullet).
In all my rifles, 40.0 gn of H4350 has never been a compressed load with a wide variety of 140 gn projectiles. But it does depend to some degree on your freebore. If the rifle was chambered for a 120 gn, and you load to a small jump, it will have a shorter than average COAL (for that weight class) if you load a 147 ELDM, because the bullet will sit way deeper in the case. Some rifles have limited space in the magazine, and will force you to seat the bullet deeper into the case. Maybe their test rifle was a bit non-standard, who knows.
Dealing with a compressed load: You can use an old ultrasonic toothbrush to settle the powder before seating. Even a drill works. That will often avoid the ‘crunch’ you hear when seating a compressed load.
Not many folks on here have LE Wilson hand dies or an arbor press, but for those that do, here is a trick that works well:
Alternative method for dealing with compressed loads
Just a useful tip for dealing with compressed loads. We have all seen the asterisk (star) symbols in reloading manual saying “Compressed Load - Use with caution”. When you try these powders, and you load closer to the higher end of the range, you always hear a crunch when the bullet is...
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I appreciate all the great info, to explain.....................
I got the info from the Hodgdon site, obviously quite different from what Hornaday says.
I've loaded handgun for almost 30 yrs,( USPSA) and recently got into rifle loading, other than .223 in an AR. I load 7-08 for hunting and I took the Frank-Marc class last year with a .308, which I loaded mostly 168gr A max bullets. I settled on about 2650fps, Frank said I could have pushed it to 2700 for a little flatter shooting. That was in a Mossberg MVP which I sold when I got home from the class. It was planned that way before I left.
The new 6.5 project is two rifles. One is a Mauser I am rebuilding and the PRS match gun is a Bighorn Origin with a PVA barrel. I know they use Rock Creek blanks but I have no clue how or what the chambering will be. The mags I have will allow up to 2.850 COAL and I have pretty much all 140gr bullets, either Hornaday or NoslerCC. Since I have more IMR4064 than H4350 I am going to try to source some 130gr bullets, it seems to be the thought that they are better with 4064 than the 140"s.
I also have a chronograph so load development won't be a problem, and I will definately watch for pressure signs. The Hodgden data did seem awful slow to me, but I wanted to check.
An interesting observation............................... as i said I have loaded handgun forever. Back in the day, achieving major power factor( 165) was a breeze. We shot the last Single Stack Classic at PASA a few years ago. It had probably been at least 10yrs since I had to chrono a handgun load for a major match. Finding MPF was a total pain in the ass. The rule used to be 4.5gr of Clays in a .45 and you were good to go. Not anymore! I couldn't get it with 200gr bullets other than Titegroup, which was real snappy, so we ended up getting 230gr bullets and pushed it hard to make it. It is my belief over the years the powder composition has changed, most likely for liability reasons.
We also used to shoot .40S&W in single stack, that required a 165 or 180gr bullet and Titegroup. Now everyone shoots 9mm, scores minor and no one gives a shit about major.
Thanks again.
I got the info from the Hodgdon site, obviously quite different from what Hornaday says.
I've loaded handgun for almost 30 yrs,( USPSA) and recently got into rifle loading, other than .223 in an AR. I load 7-08 for hunting and I took the Frank-Marc class last year with a .308, which I loaded mostly 168gr A max bullets. I settled on about 2650fps, Frank said I could have pushed it to 2700 for a little flatter shooting. That was in a Mossberg MVP which I sold when I got home from the class. It was planned that way before I left.
The new 6.5 project is two rifles. One is a Mauser I am rebuilding and the PRS match gun is a Bighorn Origin with a PVA barrel. I know they use Rock Creek blanks but I have no clue how or what the chambering will be. The mags I have will allow up to 2.850 COAL and I have pretty much all 140gr bullets, either Hornaday or NoslerCC. Since I have more IMR4064 than H4350 I am going to try to source some 130gr bullets, it seems to be the thought that they are better with 4064 than the 140"s.
I also have a chronograph so load development won't be a problem, and I will definately watch for pressure signs. The Hodgden data did seem awful slow to me, but I wanted to check.
An interesting observation............................... as i said I have loaded handgun forever. Back in the day, achieving major power factor( 165) was a breeze. We shot the last Single Stack Classic at PASA a few years ago. It had probably been at least 10yrs since I had to chrono a handgun load for a major match. Finding MPF was a total pain in the ass. The rule used to be 4.5gr of Clays in a .45 and you were good to go. Not anymore! I couldn't get it with 200gr bullets other than Titegroup, which was real snappy, so we ended up getting 230gr bullets and pushed it hard to make it. It is my belief over the years the powder composition has changed, most likely for liability reasons.
We also used to shoot .40S&W in single stack, that required a 165 or 180gr bullet and Titegroup. Now everyone shoots 9mm, scores minor and no one gives a shit about major.
Thanks again.
Rifle chambers vary (a lot!). If you compare different reloading manuals, you will also see pretty major differences. My belief is that the main cause for this is chamber and freebore differences. Bullet bearing surface also plays a small role (but it is a minor effect). Some batches of powder are “hotter” than average and you might hit pressure a full grain lower than before. The opposite is possible too...
All these factors make reloading handbooks at best approximate, just a useful starting point. Your rifle will tell you what it likes, and what it can handle.
Most of my accuracy nodes are 50-90 fps below max. I have stopped chasing maximum speed years ago.
Just start low and work up to a safe max. And watch out for pressure signs.
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I hate to agree with you but you are more than correct! Frankly using just one reloading manual is dangerous. Three or more to cross reference is the bare minimum. When starting a new load, i check at least four and then go back and check a couple of older ones. When all else fails, I check with my mechanical engineer son. He makes me look like a careless beginner. And I am a fellow who created and shot experimental loads in IHMSA for decades
Disparities between manuals are somewhat frIghtning. So,
In sailing, we have a saying...”if it looks right, it probably is right”
Reloading is just the opposite...”If it looks wrong, it just may well be, Dead Wrong.”
For the bighorn/PVA build, it would probably be worth asking PVA about what loads have worked well. Chances are they have chambered the same blank with the same reamer hundreds of times.
I use four reloading books of different vintage, and the auto updated Hornady reloading app. I also check the web sites of the powder companies, and look for three sources to agree with each other. Then start lower and work up until two pressure signs arrive (heavily cratered primers, heavy bolt lift, half moon ejector imprint on the head). Then assume 0.5 gn lower is a safe max (for 308 size cases).
Also puts into context just how important it is to learn how to read pressure signs correctly. This article covers pretty much the entire topic in good detail. Some truly scary photos in there.
My self-preservation rule is to avoid exceeding max speed printed in the reloading manuals (for that particular powder) by more than 50 fps. (Assume 20 fps per inch for medium size cases if your barrel is longer/shorter than the loading manual’s test rifle). Stay safe!
Understanding Pressure :: Primal Rights, Inc
Reading pressure is a required skill that all shooters must have. Whether you are shooting factory ammunition or your own handloads, you absolutely must be able to detect and interpret pressure signs on your fired brass.
primalrights.com
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I am running out of ELDMs and can't find more. I bought a bunch of the 135 A-Tips. Has anyone had success with H4350 and the 135 A-Tips? I saw that RL16 worked well for some folks, but I don't have enough of it/can't find more.
How about the same bullet with IMR4064?
Had very good results with the 135 Atips and RL-16. Groups below 0.2”. No reason why it won’t work with many other powders that work well for 130 or 140 gn projectiles, so try what you have. You may not get the best speed with a less than ideal powder, then just load for the next lower node, even if it is 100 fps less, that makes very little difference.
Reloading manuals can also be a good guide around suitable powder choices.
so i'm trying the new Berger 153.5's. Had a load working great out of my Bartlein barrel, then switched to a proof carbon fiber to make weight for a class i want to shoot. Just can't seem to get a good group. I've ran up and down the ladder with H4350. Think i have something and then the next group goes to hell. SD/ED not great 20/9, but just can't seem to get the groups together. 42grs running aroun 2700+. Calle Berger and they said up to 40-42 gr should work. Ideas?
I have 1000 SMK 150. I found a load 40.1 of H4350. I figured that was on the low end as the MV is 2340. I tried to load it hotter, but I couldn’t get it to group at all with my current barrel. BTW, it’s a 18” 1:7.5 Barrel
Thank you Nambi. It looks like Hornady lists H4350 in its load data for the 135 A-Tip, right under RL-16. Hopefully similar performance. Hoping to get lucky, can't afford to do much testing with these.
thanks, i'm shooting a 26"
Well, maybe first confirm that the new barrel can shoot. If a 6.5 rifle will not shoot the 142 gn Sierra SMK, then it likely will not shoot anything well. Old school design with a fairly low BC, but by far the easiest bullet out there to use for load development. Very jump tolerant.
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thank you, the only thing i've loaded so far is the berger 153.5's. I will try berger 140's and see what happens. I've never used Sierra's
Berger Hybrid is fairly jump tolerant as well, so it should work well enough as a test. Old school bullets like the Sierra 142 SMK or the Hornady 140 BTHP are super jump tolerant.
Berger 140 Hybrids shoot well (under 0.6”) in all my rifles, for any jump - once powder charge has been optimized. Jammed did not work for me, but others get good results that way. My best/optimized groups are around 0.25” (for my MPA rifle, it has a heavy bull barrel).
Perhaps try a long jump, to start with. You can also try the 153 Berger with very long jump (50 thou plus).
I notice that your twist rate is 7.5, which is good. [This may not be relevant to your situation, but for the benefit of others.]
The 150 SMK has a very high BC, but there is some controversy about the required spin rate. Sierra claims a 7.5 twist or faster barrel is needed, but many testers have reported that it works ok out of their 8 twist barrels. Others reported that their 8 twist barrel could not stabilize it. A standard 6.5 Creedmoor rifle (they are almost all 8 twist) appears to launch the bullet with marginal stability, and in some rifles, is right on the edge of tumbling. A shorter barrel will make it (slightly) worse, less speed means less rpm in flight. I believe Mr. Litz recommends a Stability Factor of 1.4 or better. So if you had an 8 twist barrel, Strelok gives an SF of 1.38 assuming a 1.491” bullet length at 2340 fps, Applied Ballistics calculates a 1.39. That probably would not have worked well.
I have tried the 150 SMK in two rifles, the 8 twist Savage factory barrel did not like it, it was unstable and some missed the target, or flew sideways through the paper. Had a 30” Shilen 7.0 twist made up, and that stabilized them very well. (Shilen could not make a 7.5 twist at that time). I could get it to 2900 fps or slightly over that using RL17 and Superformance, mostly because of the extra 6” of barrel length, but these powders tend to produce good speed as well. Just temp sensitive so be careful on hot days. Accuracy was ok but not great in this particular barrel (0.65” average 5 shot group size), but wind drift at 1000 was absolutely superb.
This is a somewhat unfair comparison, but just for historical context and to show how far bullet design and powder/chemistry development has come over the past 15 years: A 142 SMK from a 24” barrel using IMR4350 will do about 2700 fps, and for a 10 mph cross wind, the total wind drift at 1,000 yards is 71”, while the 150 SMK driven by a special powder like RL-17 at 2900 fps from a 30” barrel will have only 52” of wind drift. That is a big deal. A 6.5 PRC with a 28” barrel will do even better.
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Your 7.5 twist barrel should work just fine. AB reports a Stability Factor of 1.6 for a 7.5 twist barrel, which is pretty good.
Try a different primer perhaps. It rarely happens, but i have seem the odd bad batch of primers.
[Apologies, I was slow in picking up that you did mentioned the twist rate.
]
Try a different primer perhaps. It rarely happens, but i have seem the odd bad batch of primers.
[Apologies, I was slow in picking up that you did mentioned the twist rate.
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I have loaded some with Superfomance and Varget. I just haven't had the chance to hit the range as I am getting my car and myself ready for a race in March.Your 7.5 twist barrel should work just fine. Try a different primer perhaps.
Apologies, I was slow in picking up that you did mentioned the twist rate.
Has anybody tried the 160 gn Hornady Round Nose (RN) bullet for hunting?
I meant for hunting critters like Texas feral hogs that are hard to put down. Or Canadian moose. I know it is 1880 technology, but it is the heaviest hunting bullet for the caliber...
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Haha fair enough anxious to hear about results if you go for it!
Texas hogs aren't hard to put down. I've seen them fall with a 223.
For moose you should probably have something that is faster than a 160gr bullet in a 6.5 Creedmoor and more energy.
For moose you should probably have something that is faster than a 160gr bullet in a 6.5 Creedmoor and more energy.
But just imagine him breaking the internet with the thread title “6.5CM for moose?”
The 6.5x55 has been used to take down Swedish Elk, which is a moose, and they are using 156/160 bullets. I would imagine that the 6.5CM and do just as good as a job. I would probably use 130 accubond or TSX/140 round at higher velocity.
Have used the new 156 Berger hunting bullet (Berger factory ammo) out of a 26” 6.5 Creed on two hogs end of last year, both medium size sows. Shot both through the chest, pass throughs, penetrating both lungs, but missed the heart. Massive blood trail. Both ran 20-30 yards, and had to be tracked into the thickets, one growled and tried to bite the rifle when i poked it! It looked dead... but clearly wasn’t!! Yes i know, shot placement must have been less than ideal, but tough to do when you have to shoot them on the trot.
Next hunting trip i used the 30-06, rifle technology from 1906, and a 180 Barnes Tipped TSX (a 2007 design). Shot a medium size boar through the shoulder, and broke the front leg. It was under a feeder at 90 yards, just before dark, and a fairly easy shot. Probably nicked the top of the heart, passed through both lungs, and it collapsed where it stood. No biting this time! Made me think “heavier is better”. But clearly good shot placement helps a lot too. It was too dark to reliably put it behind the ear.
Have some Barnes 127 LRX that i loaded recently, but have not used this ammo yet. Have high hopes for it.
So just curious what the blunt nose 160s can do at 2550 fps. Almost looks like a pistol bullet.
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It’d probably be a dang hammer on anything 300y and in
All those will work for hogs. I ran out of 140gr accubonds and am now using 130gr ELDM's
140gr accubond
2 in one shot with the accubond
Plenty of blood but no trailing needed
140gr accubond
2 in one shot with the accubond
Plenty of blood but no trailing needed
All those will work for hogs. I ran out of 140gr accubonds and am now using 130gr ELDM's
140gr accubond
2 in one shot with the accubond
Plenty of blood but no trailing needed
Very impressive indeed! Good shot placement too. Several look like neck shots.
Used my new IR night hunting kit recently to shoot a fairly big boar that has become aggressive towards humans. He would not run away anymore, just stayed in the mud and growled at the kids. Only had 144 Berger handloads with me, so used what i had, and shot through him the shoulder, DRT. No exit wound, but he dropped where he stood.
Not that i would recommend a pointed closed tip target bullet with a thin jacket for hunting, but surprisingly, it worked!
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