I think this is a "fast" barrel for sure... 31grs of Varget with 88gr ELDs
- Thread starter Dai Bando
- Start date
Yeh, that's smoking them out of there.
I ran at a 3070fps with my first load. It did ok. When I dropped down to a node at 2990 it really began to shine.
So I usually start there, and as the barrel wears the velocity slowly drops. Its usually around 2920fps when I pull it. But it shoots single digit SD bugholes throughout.
I ran at a 3070fps with my first load. It did ok. When I dropped down to a node at 2990 it really began to shine.
So I usually start there, and as the barrel wears the velocity slowly drops. Its usually around 2920fps when I pull it. But it shoots single digit SD bugholes throughout.
Started my 22BR last week by placing an order for a PVA OBW; 100 FB, Competition Contour, 26", 5/8-24, .219 bore, and Jet4 Brake.
The rest of the build is looking like...
- Terminus Zeus QC
- Trigger Tech, two-stage Diamond
- MPA Matrix or Manners TCS
- MPA Mount
- XTR III, Razor G2, ZCO, or ATACR
The rest of the build is looking like...
- Terminus Zeus QC
- Trigger Tech, two-stage Diamond
- MPA Matrix or Manners TCS
- MPA Mount
- XTR III, Razor G2, ZCO, or ATACR
Yeh, that should treat you great.
I got my two new barrels squared away and mounted one of them. Throated it out to .120 freebore.
Going to run 1000 Berger 85.5gr Hybrids through it and see how I like them. They are more money then 88s, but a little higher BC, and tougher tip. A little better QC.
I'll keep you posted.
I got my two new barrels squared away and mounted one of them. Throated it out to .120 freebore.
Going to run 1000 Berger 85.5gr Hybrids through it and see how I like them. They are more money then 88s, but a little higher BC, and tougher tip. A little better QC.
I'll keep you posted.
Please do. I'm also interested in running 85.5gr Hybrids but at a 50%+ price increase, not sure if it's worth it.
I have said that to myself 1000 times
The 88s have some flaws here and there. If you mag jam one, toss it out, the tip gets buggered and its a wasted shot. Other than that they are awfully solid for the price.
I spent all day at the range yesterday. Got in a bunch of barricade practice with my 223 Ackley and 22RF. In between I was sending rounds downrange on my 22BR with the new barrel I spun on. It was pretty educational.
I've been through a handful of barrels now. They've all been 7 twist and I've mostly shot 88gr ELDs. I've ran a 22" with and without a can, a couple 26" and a 28". Going forward I'm just going to stick to a 26".
I've also ran freebores from .050, .100, and .180, after yesterday's testing I'm pretty certain I'm going to use .130 for all my new barrels. This allowed me to run a little more jump and give myself consistency for the life of the barrel while being seated well out into the neck. Being seated out in the neck gave me better case capacity and more velocity without pressure. And oddly enough, it gave me the lowest 15 round SD I've ever had.
I played with a bunch of seating depths and charge weights. It came as no surprise that 29grs of Varget was dead nuts, its the same charge as my last barrel and one prior. My 28" barrel liked 28.5grs, but 29grs just keeps coming up for me.
Here's the load;
26" Hawk Hill War Heavy 7" twist
29grs Varget
85.5gr Berger LRHT
3033fps
.130" freebore .060 jump
2.2fps SD 16fps ES over 15 rounds
Normally that load runs around 2970fps to 2990fps. So to see it easily and efficiently running over 3000fps is what has sold me on that freebore and seating depth.
Here's my target board. Looks like a mess.
But it helped me to get this. This load was a 4" vertical at 1000 yards.
I've been through a handful of barrels now. They've all been 7 twist and I've mostly shot 88gr ELDs. I've ran a 22" with and without a can, a couple 26" and a 28". Going forward I'm just going to stick to a 26".
I've also ran freebores from .050, .100, and .180, after yesterday's testing I'm pretty certain I'm going to use .130 for all my new barrels. This allowed me to run a little more jump and give myself consistency for the life of the barrel while being seated well out into the neck. Being seated out in the neck gave me better case capacity and more velocity without pressure. And oddly enough, it gave me the lowest 15 round SD I've ever had.
I played with a bunch of seating depths and charge weights. It came as no surprise that 29grs of Varget was dead nuts, its the same charge as my last barrel and one prior. My 28" barrel liked 28.5grs, but 29grs just keeps coming up for me.
Here's the load;
26" Hawk Hill War Heavy 7" twist
29grs Varget
85.5gr Berger LRHT
3033fps
.130" freebore .060 jump
2.2fps SD 16fps ES over 15 rounds
Normally that load runs around 2970fps to 2990fps. So to see it easily and efficiently running over 3000fps is what has sold me on that freebore and seating depth.
Here's my target board. Looks like a mess.
But it helped me to get this. This load was a 4" vertical at 1000 yards.
I am going to see if PVA can increase my freebore from .100" to .130"
I'm running a 26 in Hawk Hill 22 br. .252 neck, freebore I don't know as my gunsmith custom throated it for me to seat above neck shoulder junction. Running the 95 smk @ 2936, absolutely no pressure. Around 3-5 fps sd consistently. Load is 31.7 H4350/cci 450s. .219 bore also
Do you neck turn for your 252 neck? If so what measurement do you turn them down to?
Thanks
Yes. Turn them down to 12 thou
We went ahead and ordered a couple of Brux 6.5 twists to get this 22BR project moving over the winter.
Plan is to run 85.5s VLDs or 95 SMKs over Varget around 2900-2950. We’re wondering if the 6.5t will help to stabilize the heavies at distance without having to chase speed (and keep recoil to a minimum) or worry about blowing jackets.
.255 neck with .150 freebore sounds like a good in-between for what we’re trying to accomplish. No need to turn necks and a long enough throat to keep the bearing surface above the shoulder junction.
Will update once we get them spun up and have some time to start messing with them.
Plan is to run 85.5s VLDs or 95 SMKs over Varget around 2900-2950. We’re wondering if the 6.5t will help to stabilize the heavies at distance without having to chase speed (and keep recoil to a minimum) or worry about blowing jackets.
.255 neck with .150 freebore sounds like a good in-between for what we’re trying to accomplish. No need to turn necks and a long enough throat to keep the bearing surface above the shoulder junction.
Will update once we get them spun up and have some time to start messing with them.
H4350 will get you to that speed also. I'm running it at 2936 with zero pressure.
Those speeds will be easy with the 85gr Bergers. Pretty tough with the 95gr SMK.
I'm getting 3050fps out of the 85.5 Hybrids on my new 26" Hawk Hill 7" twist barrel now that its finished speeding up. Its seated pretty far out in a .130" freebore, jumping it .060.
My experiments with the 95gr SMK with a 22" suppressed 7" twist, .218 bore and .180 freebore didn't go very well. I hit really hard bolt lift at 2850fps. A longer barrel would probably get it to 2900fps, but tough to say if it would be a useable round. In a 6.5" twist it will hit pressure faster.
If I were to run this as a comp round, I would stick to the Berger. I saw a lot of variation in the length of the SMK, that made me kinda leery. And I had jacket failures like crazy with the SMK in my 22 Creedmoor any time I got near 3100fps. I would love to see how the SD of the BC looks on that bullet from the guys at the AB lab. My speculation is its not that good.
Thats far better success than I had with Varget. What twist rate?
We were planning to run 28” with Mavericks. Not overly concerned about speed, though it may reach a point like you said where the 95s don’t make any sense compared to the 85s. Especially if you can get the speed easier out of the latter.
It’s also interesting to hear you mention the consistency of the SMKs as it’s definitely not the first I’ve heard about it. There’s a reason the 105 Hybrids continue to be one of the most popular bullets amongst the 6mm crowd, even with “better” bullets available in terms of on-paper performance. Wondering if Berger just has it figured out with their design even from lot to lot whereas some of the other manufacturers do not.
7 twist. .219 bore.
I'm of the opinion that jacket failures are caused by a .218 bore, especially with a 6.5 twist at creedmoor speeds. Opinion only though as all I've got to go on is I'm at 1300 +- rounds on mine, haven't popped one yet. 7 twist @2936. G7 in my gun is.304 which is gtg for me.
I'm sure that bore sizing helps for added velocity before hitting pressure. I have two different 22BRs. One with a .217 bore Proof medium Palma on a G.A. Tempest. And have had several on a Curtis Axiom with .218 bore Hawk Hill MTUs. The Proof barrel always runs higher pressure with the same load. Even though both are 7" twist chambered with the same reamer.
I dont think it's so much a bore or pressure issue as it is an RPM issue. Though I agree that tighter bores and faster twists create more pressure. And perhaps its a contributing factor.
But I could run at <3100fps in a 7" twist with the 95gr SMK. As soon as I got over that velocity and exceeded 318,000 rpms, I would start to see some failures. At 3170fps/326,000rpms, I saw a failure rate of about 15%. I know because I lost about 30 to 35 bullets at a Pro Series PRS match with a 210 round count.
I do know that 5 groove barrels tend to see less jacket failures than the 4 groove barrels I run. Ive seen a lot of evidence of that. And I've seen plenty of guys post that they are getting faster velocities than that from the bullet. It seems to be somewhat hit and miss. I also know if you go up to a 7.5" twist for the SMK you can really push them hard. Suddenly 3170fps is only 304,000 rpms. Even more so in an 8" twist you can push to 3300fps and only be at 297,000 rpms. But thats more effective for the guys pushing for 3300 to 3400fps in a varminter rifle.
If I were to do it over again I would get a 7.5" so I could safely run at the velocity I want. I recently talked a buddy into going 7.5" twist on his 22GT for his second barrel and he's much happier with it. He can easily run 88gr ELDs and 90gr Atips at 3130fps with no loss of BC. The AB PDM lines up perfectly for both of them.
Ordered 1,000 88gr ELDMs & 300 Lapua 6BR brass today in anticipation. Still need to order a Zeus, TCS, and SAC Modular BR die.
Im thinking of ordering a 22 BR in .219 bore 7tw from PVA in hopes of running 88 eldm’s around 3000 fps. In your experience, should I be ok jacket wise? I really don’t want to try this if I’m going to have to deal with bullets blowing up.
Yes. That is the same barrel I ordered.
I'm running 3100 from a 7 twist .218 bore Krieger with no issues yet
I’m thinking bout getting on the 22br train but I’m confused a little on dies all I can find or 22br Remington dies and I see some guy using them on here.
I assume everyone’s running a 22br Norma chamber with lapua brass and the only option I can find in dies is a 6br norma with a 22cal bushing.
so what y’all running for dies?
I assume everyone’s running a 22br Norma chamber with lapua brass and the only option I can find in dies is a 6br norma with a 22cal bushing.
so what y’all running for dies?
I am using redding 22br rem type C full length die to size it down from 6br to 22br. Then i use a redding competition 6br die with a .247 bushing to resize after first firing and beyond.
Ok makes sense your only over working the brass once then back to the minimum.
thanks for the response
For those of you experienced with the 22BR, would an 18.5" 22BR make any sense? My idea is to take into the brush and shoot critters such as pigs, coyotes, and maybe deer during season. It would be suppressed all the time and I like the idea of running heavies. Probably anything over 77 grains.
I do have a 26" 223 with a 9 twist that shoots 77s just fine. Do you guys think the 18.5" BR would gain me much, or not in that short of a barrel?
Thanks...
I do have a 26" 223 with a 9 twist that shoots 77s just fine. Do you guys think the 18.5" BR would gain me much, or not in that short of a barrel?
Thanks...
For a short barreled killing rifle I'd go 22 creed... I get more velocity from my 20" 22 creed compared to my 28" 22br. It will take a long time to shoot out a 22 creed on a killing gun unless you are a killing machine or you just shoot it a lot for fun. If not 22 creed maybe 22gt
I have thought about the 22 creed as well. But I just know myself too well and I know whatever I build "to hunt" I'll probably also want to use to whack some steel lol. I may end up eating the barrel pretty quickly like that. Not that I'm completely against the idea, but I still thought about considering a 22BR or maybe even a GT like you mentioned.
This is just my opinion but if you plan on shooting predators or medium sized animals at beyond 300yds you need as much gun as you are willing to take because just a mph or 2 of wind can turn a kill shot to a wounding when you start stretching the distance. Animals aren't steel and a hit isn't just a hit because no matter how nasty the animal is they are just doing what they are made to do and deserve as quick of a death as any other animal.
BUTTTT if you are keeping your killing fairly close and just want to stretch out your distance on steel for fun a 18-20" 22br would be a great choice. Again just my opinion and I know that plenty of people think of yotes and pigs as trash, don't care if they suffer, and probably very much disagree with me.
Oh trust me, I won't be shooting live targets far enough. Or if I ever hunted in an area where such a shot was possible, I also have 270win, 308win, and 6.5CM so I'm covered there. However, here in the south Texas brush, my longest shot ever on a deer was 297 yards and that was out of the norm. Usually, we're not shooting past 200 yards with most shots being in the 50 - 80 yards.
Now that we've got that covered, I think I'm gonna start looking up case capacity on a 22BR case and compare to 223 just to see where in the ballpark it is. I want more quantifiable data. I see a lot of posts that include MV but no bbl length. I guess I just have to assume most of the time these are 26" bbl lengths.
FWIW, my BR has a 24” barrel + 9” suppressor (typically suppressed when chronographing, cause that’s how I shoot).
88 ELD’s run 3,000fps
95 Matchkings run 2850fps
75 ELD’s run 3,200fps
All speeds are “more or less” depending on temp more than anything, but I’m not really leaning on any of these loads.
So, if you figured 25fps/inch, you could subtract 150fps if you whacked the barrel off at 18”, and discount another 25fps if shooting unsuppressed, so minus 175fps of the above velocities.
That’s how I’d look at it, YMMV.
88 ELD’s run 3,000fps
95 Matchkings run 2850fps
75 ELD’s run 3,200fps
All speeds are “more or less” depending on temp more than anything, but I’m not really leaning on any of these loads.
So, if you figured 25fps/inch, you could subtract 150fps if you whacked the barrel off at 18”, and discount another 25fps if shooting unsuppressed, so minus 175fps of the above velocities.
That’s how I’d look at it, YMMV.
I have a 28" long throated 223 and 22br. The 22br is about 200fps faster at the same length but at shorter lengths the 223 may start to catch up because of less powder and you can use faster powders. It may have been a fast barrel but I had a 22" 223 wylde that I ran 88s at 2830fps while my 26" wylde runs them at around 2850fps and the 28" in the 2900s with a much longer throat.
I'm in the dilemma here, I have a 28" 7tw hawk hill hvy varmint, 219 bore blank. I plan to put it on my origin, I'm trying decide on 223 w/ long throat or 22br. I do have 223 brass already but no dies. Lc brass is cheap as shit and if I loose it no worries, lapua 6br whole different animal. I feel I can get much better components for the br and likely better performance. I'd plan on running Berger 85.5 or Horandy 88s. What mags can a guy run? My buddy shoots straight 6br out of accurate mag aics with NO issues in a deviant.
Mag-wise, I’ve got the 12 round MDT BR mag, but usually just run a Mag Pul 5 rounder.
All things being equal (which they rarely are), the BR will out run the .223 by 200fps or so. I do think the BR has a bit of an advantage with heavies with its longer neck.
Throat wise, mines .080” and I wish it was .1”. If was to run solely 95 Sierras, I’d go longer.
If I ever .223 in a bolt gun (and I will someday) it’ll likely get fed Lapua brass, despite having 1400 or so pieces of R-P laying around.
All things being equal (which they rarely are), the BR will out run the .223 by 200fps or so. I do think the BR has a bit of an advantage with heavies with its longer neck.
Throat wise, mines .080” and I wish it was .1”. If was to run solely 95 Sierras, I’d go longer.
If I ever .223 in a bolt gun (and I will someday) it’ll likely get fed Lapua brass, despite having 1400 or so pieces of R-P laying around.
A friend of mine has been trying to run the 85.5s. Said he's never had a more picky bullet. This is out of a bolt 223.
Just ordered my Zeus. Now only to find a PRS TCS or Matrix in the PX for a decent deal.
Anyways, does anyone run MDT BR 12 round mags in a three lug/Zeus action?
Anyways, does anyone run MDT BR 12 round mags in a three lug/Zeus action?
Who shoots this for strictly matches, will it make 3k rounds running 88s @ 3k fps from a long barrel?
I've run the 22BR in a lot of matches. If you shoot in the range of 2950 to 3000fps, there's a chance you'll make it to 3000 rounds. Mine have all been shooting pretty good still when I pulled them around 2500. But if a guy didn't mind chasing the lands and developing a new load around the 2k mark, I'm pretty sure you could squeeze that out of a barrel.
It just depends on a lot of factors. I'm basing it off of the 3 barrels I've pulled and the wear I see on the pair of 22BRs I have running now.
What size bushing & mandrel is everyone using? I'm using Lapua brass and am planning to use .248 bushing w/ .222 mandrel. Curious about what you guys are using, please list what brass you are using too.
Since a guy is having to neck down and turn the neck all the way down and a little into the shoulder to prevent donuts, would the 22 dasher be a better route? All the possible donut area of the neck would become shoulder. This would allow sizing down with just a bushing die vs FL die. Set a false shoulder to form the case and gtg. Idk may need turned as well.
I've not paid strict attention to this thread for a while, but for all the guys fretting neck turning, I will tell you that the Redding FL .22BR die is a piece of dogshit of the first order. It WAY oversizes the neck, not only resulting in bad donuts, but a lot of collapsed shoulders (about 1 out of 5) as well. But hey, at least it's within "their spec" (Redding's words, certainly not mine). I've mentioned it in this thread before.
I went the route of their bushing neck die (also bought the body die, if I had it to do over, I'd just get the bushing FL die), with a .259" and .250" bushings. Initial sizing is a two step process with the two bushings that is much smoother (no having to lean on the Rock Chucker handle), much less of a donut (pretty well forms out on the first firing) and no collapsed shoulders.
If anyone is determined to use the FL die, I have on for sale on the cheap. I might get in trouble for saying that outside of the PX, but in my defense, there is no category for "dog turd" for sale.
I went the route of their bushing neck die (also bought the body die, if I had it to do over, I'd just get the bushing FL die), with a .259" and .250" bushings. Initial sizing is a two step process with the two bushings that is much smoother (no having to lean on the Rock Chucker handle), much less of a donut (pretty well forms out on the first firing) and no collapsed shoulders.
If anyone is determined to use the FL die, I have on for sale on the cheap. I might get in trouble for saying that outside of the PX, but in my defense, there is no category for "dog turd" for sale.
You don't have to neck turn or turn the shoulder.
Size it down and shoot it. Its been covered previously in this thread.
Regarding this dog turd. I too have the redding 22br FL die. I lost 10 pieces on my first 100 brass. Then i seemed to have solved the collapsing shoulder issue by making sure everything was lubed quite generously with hornady one shot, including inside of neck. Removed expander ball and used the mandrel to bring the neck back up after. Did 300 more brass with no issues.
I lubed it up inside and out with Imperial Sizing Wax, pulled the expander ball, and still had issues.
The problem is, when you have to use the amount of force I was using on a Rock Chucker to size cases (into the die, and then pushing back over the expander ball as a separate step), something's wrong.
IIRC, my cheap RCBS .223 dies only size .005" under the final diameter before going back over the expander ball. The Redding .22BR die was sizing .018". I fail to see where that's good for buck-a-piece Lapua cases. I've got a dozen sets of el cheapo Lee dies and even they're better than that.
I don't mean to hate on Redding. I've got some of their other stuff, and it's great, but the .22BR FL die is an abortion and better alternatives abound.
The problem is, when you have to use the amount of force I was using on a Rock Chucker to size cases (into the die, and then pushing back over the expander ball as a separate step), something's wrong.
IIRC, my cheap RCBS .223 dies only size .005" under the final diameter before going back over the expander ball. The Redding .22BR die was sizing .018". I fail to see where that's good for buck-a-piece Lapua cases. I've got a dozen sets of el cheapo Lee dies and even they're better than that.
I don't mean to hate on Redding. I've got some of their other stuff, and it's great, but the .22BR FL die is an abortion and better alternatives abound.
Similar threads
Reloading Equipment 6mm BR ALPHA BRASS
