Maybe I can get them to take this garbage 1/7 back and give that a whirl before I drop the coin on craddock I’m about to hook up on!
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Noted. I wouldn’t buy a gun named after a clownfish anyways.
That's unfortunate, but seems to be a common theme with them. They lost a contract a couple years back for the same thing.
Forget the PSA and go with Craddock. Why risk going through the same BS again? Your confidence in PSA is already low. A 1:7 should have no issue with the 88 grain bullet. Hell I have shot 80-90 grain Sierra MK’s through my 223 AR (1:7 twist).
I saw that yesterday and raised my eyebrows, but I'm leery. Is the consensus these are barrel issues not ammo issues with heavier bullets when getting scatter gun performance? Have Craddock web page saved. Really enjoying this forum so much great info.
Yeah—you’re right. I’m going to order the 22” craddock-still trying to decide between 1:7 and 6.5.
Are you going to build from scratch or buy a complete? I've never built an upper always interested me maybe this is the time I investigate that route.
When I was asking about a .224 upper, Paul Craddock recommended sticking with a 1/7 twist since I was planning to shoot just factory ammo. He said 1/6.5 twist looks to be more picky about loads.
1:7.5 Rainier Ultramatch loves 88 ELD'S. You dont need 1:6.5 to shoot them
I have a 22" Craddock upper (Criterion 1:7 Twist). Shoots the 88 ELD match ammo just fine, even the 90 grain stuff. REALLY loves the 75 grain cheaper Federal.
I feel really stupid posting this b/c my knowledge of reloading is a .5 on a 100 scale. This guy did a ton of work with 1:6.5 and 1:7 with a lot of different loads was pretty neat. Didn't see it linked here maybe you guys have seen it already
My Valkyrie Shot about 3 MOA with Federal 90, Hornady 88, and Handloaded 80ELDm. Upper is currently at the barrel maker now and has been for a few months. Considering I waited damn near 9 months for the barrel, Valkyrie is not leaving a good taste in my mouth so far.
New cartridge, new and varied freebore specs and a big array of bullet weights with lots of manufacturers trying to get in on the initial surge there will allways be growing pains. I really hope they get you sorted out since it is a really impressive little round, I'm still waiting and watching.
I had the same issues. I purchased a PSA 20" full upper on a sale for $300. (I know, get what you pay for). I put it on a RRA lower and headed to the range. I had Federal 75 TMJ and Hornady 88ELDM factory ammo. I considered barrel break in since it was not a custom build but chose not to. With today's technology and machining specs, I personally don't think it is needed. I did a full clean and went downrange. I zero'd my optic and my son burned through 40 rounds of Federal TMJ on day 1. I did a thorough cleaning again that night. I use MPro and Slip products. The next day I went decided to chrono test and accuracy test, I had very high hopes after watching Frank stretching out to 2100 plus yards. I thought a MOA rifle out to a grand would satisfy me for this PSA upper.
Day 2: I checked the factory loads for velocity and conducted accuracy tests simultaneously. I shot prone, off a tripod, with a rear bag. The Chrono I used was a Magneto Speed with Lane Scorpion King .30 cal suppressor attached. Atmospherics: 1620FT, 31F, 5mph headwind, 1.4mph crosswind. 28.53inHg
Federal 75 TMJ. 3 and 5 shot groups at 100 yards. 1.75, 1.62, 1.23, 1.81, and .87 MOA. Max: 2905fps. MIN: 2847fps. AVE: 2873fps. SD: 18fps. ES: 58fps.
Hornady 88 ELDM. 3 and 5 shot groups at 100 yards. 1.72, 2.66, .84,1.04, 2.66, 1.27 MOA. MAX:2662fps. MIN: 2593fps. AVE: 2640fps. SD: 22fps. ES: 69fps.
I contacted PSA and explained my concerns about accuracy issues. They were great, said to send back the upper and they would look into it. I asked them to check the internal barrel specs and chamber since I had heard of reamer issues on forums. PSA rep said to expect the issue resolved and the upper back to me in 15 days.
I sent it back yesterday morning. A friend bought a PSA upper and it shoots factory ammo around that 1 MOA.
No you didnt.
You checked your velocity and checked your altered accuracy.
Shoot without the chrono hanging off the end and see how it does next time if you want to see its accuracy.
I probably should have mentioned this in the original post. I have shot it without a chrono, No change in accuracy, only POI. If a Magneto Speed attached to a can affects the accuracy of your rifle, I would be looking at stock, bedding, free float barrel, and slim barrel profile issues.
Altered accuracy.. If you go down that rabbit hole of "altered accuracy", it is impossible to be behind a rifle, shooting, without "altering" the accuracy. Accuracy is determined by many variables, which cumulatively result in accuracy of the rifle. Those same variables "alter" a rifle's accuracy change a variable you change accuracy. If a rifle were only fired from a ransom style rest for accuracy, over time, throat erosion, barrel wear, etc, accuracy diminishes. I appreciate that people view things differently. In my world accuracy is accuracy, there are no sub-categories.
Going to buy the complete craddock upper.
Any data out there on expected barrel life, they are moving pretty quick down that barrel.
I must have gotten lucky with my PSA 20" barrel. Now that I've found a good load for it, its shooting really well. I'm using the 90 SMK with CFE223. I had my last 3 shots of the day, after shooting targets out to 700 yards to verify dope, that basically formed a 'cloverleaf' at 100 yards. (I know only 3 shots, but it's all I had left.) I'll try to post a picture later on. I've got around 250 rounds through it now and its just gotten better.
That being said, I was disappointed in the beginning. It wasn't shooting well at all in the beginning. I didn't know whether to blame the barrel or the catridge, given all the different issues I've read on the errornet about it. The barrel still won't shoot the Hornady 88gr. factory ammo very well, but the Federal 90 gr SMK loads will shoot under MOA and better.
That being said, I was disappointed in the beginning. It wasn't shooting well at all in the beginning. I didn't know whether to blame the barrel or the catridge, given all the different issues I've read on the errornet about it. The barrel still won't shoot the Hornady 88gr. factory ammo very well, but the Federal 90 gr SMK loads will shoot under MOA and better.
I have no dog in the fight and don't own one yet. If you listen to the Every Day Sniper podcast (on Podbean) where Frank Galli and Brian Whalen are speaking about it, Brian mentions that they're both generally shooting at a DA between 4k - 6k. Both Brian's JP and MHS built bolt are 1:7. He does say if living near sea level or wanting to use the 95s he'd go with a faster twist. Craddock has some flavor of barrel that's 1:6.8.
If it was me, I'd see if PSA will exchange the 1:7 if you're not at high altitude.
I shot mine 1-7 in Tennesee and had no stability issues...
Stability is not an issue with the 1-7, Brian was being a bit conservative, and really for speed and shorter barrels why not just use 88 or less ?
I think the twist talk is people inserting their own ideas because some people say their rifles don't shoot, so they are blaming the twist.
Stability is not an issue with the 1-7, Brian was being a bit conservative, and really for speed and shorter barrels why not just use 88 or less ?
I think the twist talk is people inserting their own ideas because some people say their rifles don't shoot, so they are blaming the twist.
Yeah, I’m good with the 88’s. I’d be fine with 75 if somebody made a factory match round because current setup shoots the federal TMJ 75s so well.
I live in TN—so pretty much sea level
I shot this 10 shot group today at an indoor 100yd range. This is Sierra 90grn HPBT sitting on top of R17. CCI 450 primers and Starline brass. FPS is 2685 and SD is 4.4 
This is a JP 22” med weight 1:7 twist barrel. Templar Tactical matched set upper and lower. JP lightweight bolt carrier and JP silent buffer spring. Trigger is JP / Armageddon Gear Revolution.
This set up did NOT like the Hornady 88’s. I tried them with several powders and adjusting seating depth. It really did not like the factory 88 ELD ammo. I started with the 88’s and when I saw the dismal results, I had little hope for the 90’s, but I think these results speak for themselves. It also loves 85 RDF on top of some CFE or MR2000.
I am no barrel twist expert or ballistician, but I am a knobdicking reloader.
So my .02- buy the best you can afford, reload if you can and experiment, and don’t buy into the “this won’t work with that” argument. If you all recall, JP actually was canceling orders for folks who were on the list waiting for their barrels because they were not having results good enough for their standards. They even sent emails telling folks that if you want to shoot 90’s, you may want to look elsewhere. Apparently they got it worked out, cause I will take these groups from a gasser any day.
This is a JP 22” med weight 1:7 twist barrel. Templar Tactical matched set upper and lower. JP lightweight bolt carrier and JP silent buffer spring. Trigger is JP / Armageddon Gear Revolution.
This set up did NOT like the Hornady 88’s. I tried them with several powders and adjusting seating depth. It really did not like the factory 88 ELD ammo. I started with the 88’s and when I saw the dismal results, I had little hope for the 90’s, but I think these results speak for themselves. It also loves 85 RDF on top of some CFE or MR2000.
I am no barrel twist expert or ballistician, but I am a knobdicking reloader.
So my .02- buy the best you can afford, reload if you can and experiment, and don’t buy into the “this won’t work with that” argument. If you all recall, JP actually was canceling orders for folks who were on the list waiting for their barrels because they were not having results good enough for their standards. They even sent emails telling folks that if you want to shoot 90’s, you may want to look elsewhere. Apparently they got it worked out, cause I will take these groups from a gasser any day.
I knew I could get him to comment, he loves talking about this cartridge, lol. So there is your answer OP.
Here's some targets that I shot last week out of my PSA 20" barrel. I didn't spend a lot of time on paper as I wanted to see what this load was going to do further out. I shot the American Eagle first and you can see they didn't group very well for me. I shot 3 rounds of the Hornady 88 gr. Match just to see how they would group, then saved the rest for the steel targets at distance. Then the first 5 of my reloads, indicated with the calipers are just under 0.6" at 100 yards. I then proceeded to shoot steel at distances from 200 out to 700 yards. My load was performing great! The 88 gr Hornady's did well on the steel too, but not as well as my reloads. My last 3 shots of the reloads I had left were shot at the other target on the left. As you can see, they did very well.
Dang that is impressive thanks for sharing.
I like seeing success stories. I recently had someone ask me about the .224 PSA barrels and told them the I cannot say anything negative because my only experience was with a Craddock barrel. Actually I used different words but that was the gist of it. However, it is good to see that other manufacturers are getting the round down now. As some of you are finding out it’s a fun round to shoot from the small AR platform. It’s good to see lower cost options for those that have limited shooting budgets.
I hope to contact PSA tomorrow and get an update. I would be happy with MOA for the price I paid with factory ammo and fine tune it with handloads.
Meant to say 9 5 shot groups.....
I'm in complete agreement with Frank and others about twist rates: it's being blown and blamed for bad groups but it's really just bad barrels (cheap?) or poor timing tuning. If your bullets aren't keyholing at 100 to 500 yards, the bullet is at least marginally stable but the BC may be compromised a bit.
The video above has zero keyholed shots, and there wasn't really a major correlation between a group size and twist. Maybe for the 90 VLD slightly but it's just as likely the loads he shot just weren't in a good node and/or the rifle wasn't tuned properly for those loads.
Here is a 7.5T pushing 88 ELDs, 80 SMKs and 80 Berger VLDs shot this weekend, and 88 ELD load development by seating depth. .010" seating depth can make a big difference just as tuning gas block can also.
88ELD Tuning: seating depth on top row, confirmation middle row and gas block tuning bottom row.
80gr bullets charge testing vs 88 ELD load developed above.
It's much more likely that those experiencing poor groups got bummer barrels, need to tune gas/extraction system, or are frustrated and simply tense/shorting on fundamentals due to their low expectations from factory ammo.
The 223 has 40+ years of development under it's belt and yet of the 100s of different factory ammo options, only a handful would likely shoot MOA or better from well tuned rifles. Was 77gr SMK load developed for 223 in the first year of it's life? No.
How long did it take the military to find a great load for 308 Winchester? Here's a good write up on the history of M118 ammo: http://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/. Over 60 years of development and they've finally maxed it out within the last 20 years or so.
The Valkyrie is less than a year old, handloads have no background for which to compare it against and lastly, but perhaps most importantly, most rifles are being built on 20"-24" barrels, which is substantially longer than what most of the industry has learned to develop rifles around for the last 20+ years. And most shooters aren't accustomed to immense follow through needed to shoot long dwell time barrels. It took me well over 500 rounds to develop the feel and focus to start to predict misses.
Is it tough to tune this round? Yes and no. But being an early adopter to any new cartidge you should expect difficulties.
Is this round the new laser beam? No but it wasn't designed to be; it was designed to push heavier bullets in a small frame AR efficiently.
Is it experiencing growing pains? Yes but so does every new round (including the 6.5CM when it came out)
Will it get sorted out? Absolutely but it will take time and guys like us figuring out what works and what doesn't so we can find a better bullets, create demand for betrer powders, and all around tinkering to get more data into the field.
If a particular rifle isn't shooting factory ammo well, then stop shooting factory and develop a handload. If that doesn't work, send the barrel back, buy a new one, or wait for the rest of the development to happen before buying into a new round.
The video above has zero keyholed shots, and there wasn't really a major correlation between a group size and twist. Maybe for the 90 VLD slightly but it's just as likely the loads he shot just weren't in a good node and/or the rifle wasn't tuned properly for those loads.
Here is a 7.5T pushing 88 ELDs, 80 SMKs and 80 Berger VLDs shot this weekend, and 88 ELD load development by seating depth. .010" seating depth can make a big difference just as tuning gas block can also.
88ELD Tuning: seating depth on top row, confirmation middle row and gas block tuning bottom row.
80gr bullets charge testing vs 88 ELD load developed above.
It's much more likely that those experiencing poor groups got bummer barrels, need to tune gas/extraction system, or are frustrated and simply tense/shorting on fundamentals due to their low expectations from factory ammo.
The 223 has 40+ years of development under it's belt and yet of the 100s of different factory ammo options, only a handful would likely shoot MOA or better from well tuned rifles. Was 77gr SMK load developed for 223 in the first year of it's life? No.
How long did it take the military to find a great load for 308 Winchester? Here's a good write up on the history of M118 ammo: http://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/. Over 60 years of development and they've finally maxed it out within the last 20 years or so.
The Valkyrie is less than a year old, handloads have no background for which to compare it against and lastly, but perhaps most importantly, most rifles are being built on 20"-24" barrels, which is substantially longer than what most of the industry has learned to develop rifles around for the last 20+ years. And most shooters aren't accustomed to immense follow through needed to shoot long dwell time barrels. It took me well over 500 rounds to develop the feel and focus to start to predict misses.
Is it tough to tune this round? Yes and no. But being an early adopter to any new cartidge you should expect difficulties.
Is this round the new laser beam? No but it wasn't designed to be; it was designed to push heavier bullets in a small frame AR efficiently.
Is it experiencing growing pains? Yes but so does every new round (including the 6.5CM when it came out)
Will it get sorted out? Absolutely but it will take time and guys like us figuring out what works and what doesn't so we can find a better bullets, create demand for betrer powders, and all around tinkering to get more data into the field.
If a particular rifle isn't shooting factory ammo well, then stop shooting factory and develop a handload. If that doesn't work, send the barrel back, buy a new one, or wait for the rest of the development to happen before buying into a new round.
shot 9 5 inch groups today with the AE 75 gr tmj. Average is 1.57”. I just emailed craddock letting them know I’m in on their 22” 1/7 upper. Anybody interested in this PSA upper? 195 rounds total
What length barrel?
20”
Ok, I found a box of Federal 90gr. SMK and used it to do the (4) 5 shot groups. It was cold today. Temperature was 30 degrees and started to go down as I was out there, so my fingers were cold and I think it reflected in my shooting ability. All shots were at 100 yards. Here's a couple of pictures:
This is my rifle. PSA 20" barrel with 1:7" twist. MEGA upper and lower. ATC AR Gold trigger. PSA BCG. Odin works handguard. Magpul adjustable stock (something I'm going to change soon. Going to get a Magpul precision or LUTH). Nightforce NXS 5.5 to 22 scope, Nightforce rings, YHM Nitro Suppressor, Harris bipod, and rear bag.
The very first 5 shots are indicated in group 1. This is a cold/dirty bore group. Meaning these were the very first shots of the day out of the rifle. You can see that they went high. (that rectangular looking hole to the left is where the staple was) I think that is because my scope is zeroed for my reloads. I then adjusted the scope for the next 3 groups. I didn't spend a lot of time in between groups 1 and 2 and then 2 and 3. The only thing I did was loaded up 5 more rounds in the magazine, got up and looked through the spotting scope and then back down on the mat to shoot the next group. I took my time shooting each round. I definitely didn't blast them off like we've seen on some YouTube reviews!
I don't know what happened on group number 3, other than I think I was just cold. After that group I took a little bit extra time and warmed my fingers up. It was maybe 5 minutes but no more than 10 before I started shooting again. That's when I produced group number 4 at 0.454".
I then took some Hornady 88gr Match and shot a 5th group. As you can see, this rifle, does not like the Hornady factory load. I may order some Hornady bullets and see if I can get a load of my own to shoot those better.
The remaining reloads that I had, I used to shoot at distance and have a little fun on the steel.
I'm still happy with the barrel and will enjoy it until I need a new one.
View attachment 6982872
This is my rifle. PSA 20" barrel with 1:7" twist. MEGA upper and lower. ATC AR Gold trigger. PSA BCG. Odin works handguard. Magpul adjustable stock (something I'm going to change soon. Going to get a Magpul precision or LUTH). Nightforce NXS 5.5 to 22 scope, Nightforce rings, YHM Nitro Suppressor, Harris bipod, and rear bag.
The very first 5 shots are indicated in group 1. This is a cold/dirty bore group. Meaning these were the very first shots of the day out of the rifle. You can see that they went high. (that rectangular looking hole to the left is where the staple was) I think that is because my scope is zeroed for my reloads. I then adjusted the scope for the next 3 groups. I didn't spend a lot of time in between groups 1 and 2 and then 2 and 3. The only thing I did was loaded up 5 more rounds in the magazine, got up and looked through the spotting scope and then back down on the mat to shoot the next group. I took my time shooting each round. I definitely didn't blast them off like we've seen on some YouTube reviews!
I don't know what happened on group number 3, other than I think I was just cold. After that group I took a little bit extra time and warmed my fingers up. It was maybe 5 minutes but no more than 10 before I started shooting again. That's when I produced group number 4 at 0.454".
I then took some Hornady 88gr Match and shot a 5th group. As you can see, this rifle, does not like the Hornady factory load. I may order some Hornady bullets and see if I can get a load of my own to shoot those better.
The remaining reloads that I had, I used to shoot at distance and have a little fun on the steel.
I'm still happy with the barrel and will enjoy it until I need a new one.
View attachment 6982872
I didn't buy the Valkyrie koolaid (I have enough rounds to load for as it is) but figured I'd mention to you guys that did that there is an article about handloading Valkyrie for accuracy in the Dillon catalog for January. Didn't look it over, don't know how much is useful, just figured I'd mention to you guys.
Thanks for the heads up!
Too much BS keeps running around about stability and twist rate for the 224V. The poor groups some have been getting likely have nothing to do with twist rate, but barrel quality (unlucky or bad burrs), bad tune (semi autos mainly) or bad mechanics (mainly semi auto).
I'm shooting 88s stabilized at 2680 and 2800 from a 7.5 Twist 26" barrel (semi auto)... I think you'll be fine with a 7 twist (very common blank) at anything from 22-26" based on your preference.
JPs run 22" 7T, (See Frank's post on his JP), Mile High has a build (7T I think but someone can correct me on that if incorrect), Craddock is running 20-24" 6.7T and a few other other guys here have the same 7.5T Rainier that I'm shooting. All of the barrels listed above have been solid performers shooting well under MOA with 80-90gr bullets.
Take your pick. Keep us posted.
How far off the lands were you seating these? I've heard the RDF's love a little jump
I was seating the RDF’s same as the 90’s. 1.740 BTO. This was using a Hornady lock and load comparator and zeroing the caliper on the comparator. I really don’t know the measurement of off the lands as I don’t measure my rounds that way. My method of load development is to prep brass, select primer, choose powder, and begin. Once I find a powder charge that looks promising, I start tweaking seating depth until I settle on a length. Then I chrono load for SD and FPS. I know this will cause many to go into convulsions, but this is MY method and has worked for me. Many will put a chrono on the load while considering accuracy, but for me, I want to see accuracy befor FPS. What do I care FPS if it is 2 MOA at 100yd? Each shooter has their own method of round verification. I argue none. Do whatever works for you to get to where you need to be.
PM me with any questions.
Respectfully
JM
PM me with any questions.
Respectfully
JM
Someone asked on page one about 748. Today was the day I could get to the range. Tried CCE223, Powerpro Varmint and 748. 748 was the only powder that shot the best and this was the last powder tried. This was climbing on hr 4 at a high of 45 and was dropping. Was also testing a new Wilson 223 wylde barrel load developement also.
Aero M4E1 upper/lower, targa, Craddock bartlin 22”, 308 Dakota silencer, Ares BTR 4.5-27
Federal brass
88gr Horney
Pulled a shot
Next time I am loading up RL15 and maybe benchmark.
Aero M4E1 upper/lower, targa, Craddock bartlin 22”, 308 Dakota silencer, Ares BTR 4.5-27
Federal brass
88gr Horney
Pulled a shot
Next time I am loading up RL15 and maybe benchmark.
Attachments
Steelhead, what kind of velocity were you getting with the 90 SMK and what was the COAL? I have the same upper. It shoots 75ELDMS very well out past 1K, doesn't like 88s, but I'd sure like to give your load a try.
Thanks in advance.
Mine seems to be doing pretty consistent.
Aero upper lower combo
Seekins HG and 18” Seekins barrel (would have went longer but that’s all they had in stock when I ordered). Mainly trying it for coyotes so 18” is fine with me.
RRA trigger.
Hornady 88gr ELD ammo at 500yds
Aero upper lower combo
Seekins HG and 18” Seekins barrel (would have went longer but that’s all they had in stock when I ordered). Mainly trying it for coyotes so 18” is fine with me.
RRA trigger.
Hornady 88gr ELD ammo at 500yds
Attachments
Real nice. Mine loves the factory 88’s also.
Just put together a Craddock precision 20” upper with a Colt lower. Only have 24 thru the barrel so far, and have not worked at any grouping other than getting a good 100 zero. After that proceed to ring steel at 400, 450, and five hundred in secession. Mine seams to like the 88s
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