The people who decided the 300 PRC was necessary.
Huh? What people?
Hello btuse,
My recent background is....I'm a 1 mile benchrest shooter and 1k benchrest while trying to do as many ELR comps as I can. I work a job that sometimes pushes 70+ hours a week. I only really ever get to shoot at a match.
So, you have a 30" barrel. You will find some of the faster powders like H1000 will show a slower velocity in the 30" because the kaboom ran out of juice and the pressure spike is waning and the friction of the bullet in the barrel are starting to over come the pressure....thus slowing you down. It's like the inverse of powders like Retumbo in a shorter barrel where you get to a point where no matter how much powder you add....you don't get any more velocity because the powder isn't burnt before it leaves the barrel...usually manifesting itself in a nice fireball.
We like to match powder burn rate, powder density, and powder energy to our specific cartridge. Aka, we want the powder to burn the entire length down the barrel with our particular projectile. We don't want any wasted powder flashing off at the muzzle. We want the powder to fill as much of the air space in the brass as possible so when we tilt the round on its side you don't change the potential initial pressure by how the powder lays in the case. You don't want an air pocket at the back...between the powder and the primer flash hole when doing high angle shooting. (problem with the 300nm) We want a powder that gets a safe initial pressure spike of 65k psi or less and falls off slowly.
Each powder has unique physical and chemical traits that we have to adjust for. Even the same powder from lot to lot....or the same powder loaded on the bench on days of extreme humidity change.
When it comes to the 300PRC...give me a high BC, heavy for caliber bullet that is very consistent from one bullet to the next and let me drive it from 2880fps to 3000fps and I'm a happy man. I find 2900fps and a 245gr EOL is my happy spot.
I'm supersonic to 2,000 yards. I've found the 230 A-tip, 245 EOL and the 250 A-tip to transition to transonic and subsonic out to 2500yds very accurately. I've won matches out to 2500yds with my 300PRC. It's not the best selection for that distance....but out to 2000yds I'll take it over most things. I also pull barrels for comp at around 1200 to 1400 rounds on them.
Have a great day,
B2
Folding chassis. Don’t mention that to the wife either…probably one of the best explanations I've read in a very long time, thank you, thank you.
makes me understand why I'm being nudged by friends in my 24" barrel to go H1000 and/or N565.
and why my friend with his Savage Elite Precision and the 30" barrel swears by Retumbo.
and why the wife better not become aware that I'm already looking at rebarreling to 28" ... simple reason for not longer... my gun safe won't hold a rifle longer, with a brake on it...
G
I started a max load test with 250 A-Tips and Retumbo with new Lapua brass and 30" 1:7.5 (.5"GT) bbl.
I had no over pressure signs whatsoever with the following:
77.0- 2821
77.5(Horny max)-2835
77.8- 2857
88F at sea level in sauna conditions. I've since loaded a box with 78.0gr for a more accurate test, as my target MV is 2850 which I expect to drop off a bit as winter approaches(70F). I know you mentioned 230, but I built around the 250's and run the 230's in my Win Mag. Hope this helps.
I also have several friends with the savage elite and 30" bbl that were roasting me and my 26", which is why I went with a 30". My safes also wont allow it to stand up straight. But I run the Area 419 sidewinder self timer which is a tool-less removal to switch over to a can. They sell a protector cap for the muzzle adapter which is how I stow it. Suppressor and brake stay in the bag. JATprobably one of the best explanations I've read in a very long time, thank you, thank you.
makes me understand why I'm being nudged by friends in my 24" barrel to go H1000 and/or N565.
and why my friend with his Savage Elite Precision and the 30" barrel swears by Retumbo.
and why the wife better not become aware that I'm already looking at rebarreling to 28" ... simple reason for not longer... my gun safe won't hold a rifle longer, with a brake on it...
G
Yeah, from what I understand, Berger does a production run about twice a year, maybe more depending on demand.Thank you for the intel!
I have ordered the Berger 245's but no telling when they will get here.
I have also added H1000 to my store
wife knows what the rifle and the scope costed... not the rest of all the supporting gear, which was actually about 2x the rifle/scope cost...Folding chassis. Don’t mention that to the wife either…
Did you check VVs website? They are obviously listed there for 300 prc. I am in the process of testing both n570 and n560 w Berger 220 LRHT. That said the number VV lists for 560 seem low to me…. GRT simulation shows pretty low pressures for the recommended max charge…. Anyone directly use this combo? I’m pushing the 220s from a 30” barrel…. Have yet to test the rounds too though.Curious, was / is being nudged to N565... but looking at the numbers for N570, it looks better.
For now it will be either ELDM 225gr or 230 A-Tip's down a 24" barrel.
comments.
G
... off topic, sort of, was surprised to see neither N565..N570 or any of the Vihtavuori powders listed in the Hornady reloading manual (10th edition).
Did you check VVs website? They are obviously listed there for 300 prc. I am in the process of testing both n570 and n560 w Berger 220 LRHT. That said the number VV lists for 560 seem low to me…. GRT simulation shows pretty low pressures for the recommended max charge…. Anyone directly use this combo? I’m pushing the 220s from a 30” barrel…. Have yet to test the rounds too though.
Sorry that’s not what I was asking…. The 560from VV. PS: these numbers are by them stated as for a 26" barrel, you will notice N570 is quite a bit higher at all the loads.
G
View attachment 7994169
AhhhSorry that’s not what I was asking…. The 560
Numbers from GRT show much lower than nominal pressures for the max charge shown above (VVs website). The simulations show that you could push the max charge much higher than VV is showing here…. I was wondering if anyone has tried to…
I'm guessing because Berger(competitor) is in bed with VV.Curious, was / is being nudged to N565... but looking at the numbers for N570, it looks better.
For now it will be either ELDM 225gr or 230 A-Tip's down a 24" barrel.
comments.
G
... off topic, sort of, was surprised to see neither N565..N570 or any of the Vihtavuori powders listed in the Hornady reloading manual (10th edition).
What kind of performance are these guys getting with the Savage 300 PRC? Action/bolt/chassis opinion or any their MVs I'd love to hear if you have please. Any chance to see the dif with 4" more barrel/mv at distance say 1mile +? ThanksI also have several friends with the savage elite and 30" bbl that were roasting me and my 26", which is why I went with a 30". My safes also wont allow it to stand up straight. But I run the Area 419 sidewinder self timer which is a tool-less removal to switch over to a can. They sell a protector cap for the muzzle adapter which is how I stow it. Suppressor and brake stay in the bag. JAT
Same as any other 300PRC with 30" barrel.What kind of performance are these guys getting with the Savage 300 PRC? Any chance to see it at distance say 1mile +? Thanks
I apologize(again). That was with my 300WM vs their 300WM's. I own 3 RPR's and forget. However, owning 26", 28", and 30" barrels, I successfully predict 25-30fps per inch of pipe when reloading from published data using shorter test barrels. Hope this helpsWhat kind of performance are these guys getting with the Savage 300 PRC? Action/bolt/chassis opinion or any their MVs I'd love to hear if you have please. Any chance to see the dif with 4" more barrel/mv at distance say 1mile +? Thanks
The Savage Elite Precision, 30" is accurately repeatedly hitting target 1mile + consistently, similar on the 28" as they're pushing the 245 and 250 bullets, that keep speed and direction in wind over those distances, the 225 and 230's battle, you can't push much more than those out of the 24", 26 is like border line, from what I'm seeing from the other guys, past weekend competition results.What kind of performance are these guys getting with the Savage 300 PRC? Action/bolt/chassis opinion or any their MVs I'd love to hear if you have please. Any chance to see the dif with 4" more barrel/mv at distance say 1mile +? Thanks
That's great thanks. I'm just dreaming.....all over the place with various 7mm flavors, 300NM/PRC it goes on and on....I apologize(again). That was with my 300WM vs their 300WM's. I own 3 RPR's and forget. However, owning 26", 28", and 30" barrels, I successfully predict 25-30fps per inch of pipe when reloading from published data using shorter test barrels. Hope this helps
so many options, what are we to dooooooThat's great thanks. I'm just dreaming.....all over the place with various 7mm flavors, 300NM/PRC it goes on and on....
I have a buddy who is a reloading genius and he's put maybe half a dozen potential candidates up for consideration for our range which taps out at 2k/sea level. Going to let him simmer on that for a bit and will follow his lead at some point.so many options, what are we to doooooo
G
please do share what he suggests...I have a buddy who is a reloading genius and he's put maybe half a dozen potential candidates up for consideration for our range which taps out at 2k/sea level. Going to let him simmer on that for a bit and will follow his lead at some point.
hi b2leeHello btuse,
My recent background is....I'm a 1 mile benchrest shooter and 1k benchrest while trying to do as many ELR comps as I can. I work a job that sometimes pushes 70+ hours a week. I only really ever get to shoot at a match.
So, you have a 30" barrel. You will find some of the faster powders like H1000 will show a slower velocity in the 30" because the kaboom ran out of juice and the pressure spike is waning and the friction of the bullet in the barrel are starting to over come the pressure....thus slowing you down. It's like the inverse of powders like Retumbo in a shorter barrel where you get to a point where no matter how much powder you add....you don't get any more velocity because the powder isn't burnt before it leaves the barrel...usually manifesting itself in a nice fireball.
We like to match powder burn rate, powder density, and powder energy to our specific cartridge. Aka, we want the powder to burn the entire length down the barrel with our particular projectile. We don't want any wasted powder flashing off at the muzzle. We want the powder to fill as much of the air space in the brass as possible so when we tilt the round on its side you don't change the potential initial pressure by how the powder lays in the case. You don't want an air pocket at the back...between the powder and the primer flash hole when doing high angle shooting. (problem with the 300nm) We want a powder that gets a safe initial pressure spike of 65k psi or less and falls off slowly.
Each powder has unique physical and chemical traits that we have to adjust for. Even the same powder from lot to lot....or the same powder loaded on the bench on days of extreme humidity change.
When it comes to the 300PRC...give me a high BC, heavy for caliber bullet that is very consistent from one bullet to the next and let me drive it from 2880fps to 3000fps and I'm a happy man. I find 2900fps and a 245gr EOL is my happy spot.
I'm supersonic to 2,000 yards. I've found the 230 A-tip, 245 EOL and the 250 A-tip to transition to transonic and subsonic out to 2500yds very accurately. I've won matches out to 2500yds with my 300PRC. It's not the best selection for that distance....but out to 2000yds I'll take it over most things. I also pull barrels for comp at around 1200 to 1400 rounds on them.
Have a great day,
B2
Yes I would run N570 in a 300PRC,
Sounds like you need to buy a bunch of different powders and shoot your rifle with as many combinations as possible. Please report back with your findings. I’m sure someone else will eventually order a 24” barrel by accident.as much as I agree, think this is actually one of those subjects that falls under a it depends, its not just the caliber, it's depending on the bullet weight and the barrel length, which then define the powder used and how much.
as said, get the idea in a 24" for a 230 gr N564 would be good option (not discounting H1K) while a 230 or 250gr in a 26" would suit N570 and for 245/250gr in a 28"+ barrel Retumbo would be the go to.
G
This...Sounds like you need to buy a bunch of different powders and shoot your rifle with as many combinations as possible. Please report back with your findings. I’m sure someone else will eventually order a 24” barrel by accident.
Hi @b2lee, thanks. as hinted, was thinking that maybe the 24" was too short for N570, so my "guess" at this time was correct. I'm interested to get to know not just the answers, but the math etc behind the answer, understand how to work out the pressure and the pressure curve and timing, for the various powders and then see how that fits into the rifle.You will find that in a 24 inch barrel....you won't be able to get the speed you are looking for...and will see a large fireball at your muzzle because the burn rate for N570 is slow enough to where you aren't getting close to a full powder burn in that short of a barrel. I personally wouldn't run anything slow like N570 or even Retumbo until after 30 inches..and I found Retumbo to be horrid in my personal testing.
N565 in that 26-28" barrels....you will most likely find that in the 22-24" barrels that H1000 is a nice burn rate that offers you a better speed with lower pressure than other powders. I personally run RL-26 in a 29.5" barrel. I've had several barrels on this thing and 28-30 inches...RL-26 has been the go to powder for me. I don't give one flying whatever for what a book says....or what GRT says....you have to know why those numbers are what they are. Each rifle is a unique biosphere and you have to feed it what it likes. You have to shoot AT DISTANCE and not some 100yd group. You have to understand everything that is involved to make that bullet/cartridge....cause that peak pressure, retain that inertial pressure.....that burn rate to a certain length in your barrel....achieve that bullet speed.....cause that harmonic.....
Several of us have great success with different answers to that question...because each rifle is different....and different combinations can get you to where you want to go. We must understand the HOW and the WHY things do what they do....and feed the gun exactly what it wants.
For me...that is 76.0gr of RL-26....Lapua brass with a 2thou shoulder bump....trimmed .003" less than the start of the throat.....with a 245gr Berger EOL going about 2900fps in a 29.5" barrel....seated to a depth of where the bullets boat tail junction is .003" longer than where the Neck/Shoulder junction is...with a certain neck bushing.....with the brass annealed to a certain AMP Code.......with a certain mandrel opening the mouth....and the gun just smiles everytime I pull the trigger.
Have you fired your rifle yet? I'm looking for your post with original question and cant find it. Not sure if all of this is in theory only? B2lee pretty much spelled it out several times. Can you share where your at with what you have and where you want to go? I by no means am trying to be rude, just lost in the War and Peace.Hi @b2lee, thanks. as hinted, was thinking that maybe the 24" was too short for N570, so my "guess" at this time was correct. I'm interested to get to know not just the answers, but the math etc behind the answer, understand how to work out the pressure and the pressure curve and timing, for the various powders and then see how that fits into the rifle.
interesting comment on N565, got the impression from allot of people that it might be perfect for my 24", but now your nudge to rather stick to H1k. As you say, I will have to find out what my rifle like, so many as per triumphs semi sarcastic comment above, buy one point of each and see what it prefers, performs best with.
to what extend would the bullet weight impact the powder selection, thinking a heavier bullet might utilise more powder/pressure to get going.
aka a N565 in 24" and a R215 would be a fire blowing monster, but that same powder with a 250gr bullet (no i;m not planning to in 24") but that combination might have more kickback at the pressure, slow this down that nano second, thus reducong the flame blower.
G
Lol, at some point you have to stop fantasizing and stick it in the hole...let the magic happen.Have you fired your rifle yet? I'm looking for your post with original question and cant find it. Not sure if all of this is in theory only? B2lee pretty much spelled it out several times. Can you share where your at with what you have and where you want to go? I by no means am trying to be rude, just lost in the War and Peace.
The magic for me was the ignore option. i was starting to question my sanity. I wish him the best.Lol, at some point you have to stop fantasizing and stick it in the hole...let the magic happen.![]()
will, as soon as I get my license and allowed to collect my rifle.Lol, at some point you have to stop fantasizing and stick it in the hole...let the magic happen.![]()
Thank you.You will find that in a 24 inch barrel....you won't be able to get the speed you are looking for...and will see a large fireball at your muzzle because the burn rate for N570 is slow enough to where you aren't getting close to a full powder burn in that short of a barrel. I personally wouldn't run anything slow like N570 or even Retumbo until after 30 inches..and I found Retumbo to be horrid in my personal testing.
N565 in that 26-28" barrels....you will most likely find that in the 22-24" barrels that H1000 is a nice burn rate that offers you a better speed with lower pressure than other powders. I personally run RL-26 in a 29.5" barrel. I've had several barrels on this thing and 28-30 inches...RL-26 has been the go to powder for me. I don't give one flying whatever for what a book says....or what GRT says....you have to know why those numbers are what they are. Each rifle is a unique biosphere and you have to feed it what it likes. You have to shoot AT DISTANCE and not some 100yd group. You have to understand everything that is involved to make that bullet/cartridge....cause that peak pressure, retain that inertial pressure.....that burn rate to a certain length in your barrel....achieve that bullet speed.....cause that harmonic.....
Several of us have great success with different answers to that question...because each rifle is different....and different combinations can get you to where you want to go. We must understand the HOW and the WHY things do what they do....and feed the gun exactly what it wants.
For me...that is 76.0gr of RL-26....Lapua brass with a 2thou shoulder bump....trimmed .003" less than the start of the throat.....with a 245gr Berger EOL going about 2900fps in a 29.5" barrel....seated to a depth of where the bullets boat tail junction is .003" longer than where the Neck/Shoulder junction is...with a certain neck bushing.....with the brass annealed to a certain AMP Code.......with a certain mandrel opening the mouth....and the gun just smiles everytime I pull the trigger.
Pic/attachment isn’t down loading so this might be repetitive.let me ask,
so my understanding... powder burn speed implies it takes longer to build pressure, implying you need a longer barrel for it to be effective,
powder volume just defines the volume of pressure build, not the speed on the curve ramps.
thinking how pressure works, volume A in a large space would take longer to reach a pressure point to push a projectile out at speed X vs volume B in a smaller space.
Other way round is a larger volume of powder in a large space vs a smaller volume of powder in a smaller space, Initial pressure before the bullet pops might be the same, the difference here being after the initial pop, the larger volume would continue longer up that pressure curve, especially useful in a longer barrel, with a higher weight projectile.
how far of the base would I be?
G