.308 Winchester

Snuby642

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  • Feb 11, 2017
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    They are 0.100 thousands longer than SMK 168 (1.30) ,BTO is 0.53 and bc is 0.527 .

    We will see if they run at mag lenght, problem is no load data found.
    I have got with Sierra tech dept.
     

    jLorenzo

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    I have 100 of the 169s. I read somewhere that Sierra reccomends a seating depth of 2.850, don't quote me on that.
    I have Varget, Tac, IMR4895, N140, N150 BLC2 and CFE223. Which powder should I try first with these?
     

    straightshooter1

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    I'm definitely interested in what speeds guys can get out of the 169's with 24" and 26" barrels.

    169 SMK's out of a 26" 10:1 Krieger barrel; Lapua brass:

    43.2 gr IMR-4064, COAL: 2.929", MV: 2722 fps

    43.5 gr H-4895, COAL: 2.929", MV: 2769

    40.5 gr AR-Comp, COAL: 2.926 (BTO:2.270), MV: 2686

    These all produce 5 shot sub .5" groups @ 100yds. H-4895 did the best in group size, SD's in single digits and ES's in low teens.
     
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    straightshooter1

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    At some point I'll load some 169s over 44gn of varget in virgin lrp Peterson brass and report back how they do in a seasoned 24" 1-10 5R Bartlein M24.
    Maybe this winter...
    Also thinking about trying 46-47gn 2000mr...

    Using my Varget data in QuickLoad for my 168 SMK's, this is what QuickLoad shows for the 169 SMK's:

    45.5 gr Varget(99.5% filled), COAL: 2.926 (BTO:2.270), MV*: 2776 fps out of a 26" barrel; 2733 fps for a 24" barrel.

    *estimate (tends to be verily accurate base on the particular lot of Varget I have)
     
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    Baddog 0302

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    Interesting , COAL 2.9++, the only Mag. that I can load to that length is my Tikka. Because of that I've got two dictated ammo box's . A royal pita to start loading an AR-10 Mag. and have to start all over again with the 2.800 length ammo
     
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    StrayDog

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    Using my Varget data in QuickLoad for my 168 SMK's, this is what QuickLoad shows for the 169 SMK's:

    45.5 gr Varget(99.5% filled), COAL: 2.926 (BTO:2.270), MV*: 2776 fps out of a 26" barrel; 2733 fps for a 24" barrel.

    *estimate (tends to be verily accurate base on the particular lot of Varget I have)
    Cool, but I also need mag length loads, @2.87 is Max, I'll aim for 2.84-5". The old standard load for 168smk was 44, figured I'll just load 5 and shoot em for a baseline. The only problem is finding time...
     

    Snuby642

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    I may have to recive the stupid award on this one. Sierra said they moved the ogive forward from the 168 smk good and they did by 0.030 from the base.

    However they failed to make it clear to me that the oal was 0.100 thousands longer. Ouch.

    His tactical ruger is just that and has a stingy box basically mag lenght. He needed it for work.

    I thought I was doing good.

    I think the lands are 2.145

    What is the lenght capacity on aics bottom metal if he can find one for ruger?
     

    straightshooter1

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    Interesting , COAL 2.9++, the only Mag. that I can load to that length is my Tikka. Because of that I've got two dictated ammo box's . A royal pita to start loading an AR-10 Mag. and have to start all over again with the 2.800 length ammo

    Yeah, the mags I use for my RPR allows me to go out to 2.960
     

    straightshooter1

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    Cool, but I also need mag length loads, @2.87 is Max, I'll aim for 2.84-5". The old standard load for 168smk was 44, figured I'll just load 5 and shoot em for a baseline. The only problem is finding time...
    For these 169 SMK's I started with loads that worked well for the 168 SMK's and there wasn't much adjustment to get the 169's to work. If your COAL is at 2.850 to fit your mags, my QL calculation (based on my lot of Varget) for a 24" barrel shows 44.0 grs of Varget getting an MV of ~2697fps (and my Lapua brass capacity of 55.9 grs of H2O). QL also shows pressure to be somewhere around 56,930 psi; well below the SAAMI max of 62,000 psi.

    A different lot of Varget power is likely to produce different results, so one should always start low and work up.
     
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    straightshooter1

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    I may have to recive the stupid award on this one. Sierra said they moved the ogive forward from the 168 smk good and they did by 0.030 from the base.

    However they failed to make it clear to me that the oal was 0.100 thousands longer. Ouch.

    I made some measurements when I got my first batch of the 169 SMK's back in February and here's how they compared to the 168's (different lots will be different, but this gives some idea of the differences):

    169 SMK's:
    Bullet Length: 1.301 (from several different lots I sorted, the range was 1.987 - 3.06)
    BTO: .650
    Boat Tail: .168
    Bearing Surface: .483

    Compare that to my 168's . . .
    Bullet Length: 1.214
    BTO: .617
    Boat Tail: .144
    Bearing Surface: .453
     

    Snuby642

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  • Feb 11, 2017
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    I made some measurements when I got my first batch of the 169 SMK's back in February and here's how they compared to the 168's (different lots will be different, but this gives some idea of the differences):

    169 SMK's:
    Bullet Length: 1.301 (from several different lots I sorted, the range was 1.987 - 3.06)
    BTO: .650
    Boat Tail: .168
    Bearing Surface: .483

    Compare that to my 168's . . .
    Bullet Length: 1.214
    BTO: .617
    Boat Tail: .144
    Bearing Surface: .453
    Well that's interesting our measurements differ considerably.

    I'll use nominal as actual varries bullet to bullet slightly. The bto is using a Sinclair block.

    Todays measurements :
    168 smk, oal 1.200 bto 0.500
    169 smk hpbt, oal 1.300 bto 0.530
    165 sgk oal 1.18 bto 0.560

    All were averaged for that (nominal) as a +/- of 0.003 was as usual even in same box. And oal had more variance than bto as usual .
     

    straightshooter1

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    Well that's interesting our measurements differ considerably.

    I'll use nominal as actual varries bullet to bullet slightly. The bto is using a Sinclair block.

    Todays measurements :
    168 smk, oal 1.200 bto 0.500
    169 smk hpbt, oal 1.300 bto 0.530
    165 sgk oal 1.18 bto 0.560

    All were averaged for that (nominal) as a +/- of 0.003 was as usual even in same box. And oal had more variance than bto as usual .

    Yeah, the difference is because mine is from using the Hornady block on my comparator. I do prefer my Sinclair block, but used my Hornady for the 169's as I already had measurements from quite some time ago for the 168's, so I wanted an appropriate comparison. Here's what I get using my Sinclair block:
    169 SMK - bto 0.583
    168 SMK - bto 0.548

    With the Hornady block:
    169 SMK - bto 0.650
    168 SMK - bto 0.617

    Given differences between lots, the difference in our measurements between the two bullets is pretty close to the same . . . even with the Hornady block. 🤷‍♂️ That's how comparators work, huh? ;)
     
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    Bluedog82

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    Any suggestions for a 16” Cross? New to reloading .308, I’ve been loading 6.5CM for a few years…I’ve got some Nosler 175CCs, and obviously my velocities are very low, mid 2400s with 42.5gr Varget so far. I’d like to maximize velocity while retaining precision.
     

    Heffo

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    Any suggestions for a 16” Cross? New to reloading .308, I’ve been loading 6.5CM for a few years…I’ve got some Nosler 175CCs, and obviously my velocities are very low, mid 2400s with 42.5gr Varget so far. I’d like to maximize velocity while retaining precision.
    Perfect little rifles at 16”….I mainly only shoot it to 500m, sometimes more. My 16” Berger 175otm load is 44.8gr 2208 (varget) gets me 2595fps. 👍🏼
     
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    Bluedog82

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    Perfect little rifles at 16”….I mainly only shoot it to 500m, sometimes more. My 16” Berger 175otm load is 44.8gr 2208 (varget) gets me 2595fps. 👍🏼
    Thanks, my Hornady manual states 42.4 is a max charge but I thought that sounded pretty low…Hodgdon shows 45!
     
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    Temper

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    Any suggestions for a 16” Cross? New to reloading .308, I’ve been loading 6.5CM for a few years…I’ve got some Nosler 175CCs, and obviously my velocities are very low, mid 2400s with 42.5gr Varget so far. I’d like to maximize velocity while retaining precision.
    My shorty 700 likes 44.1gr Varget under the 175 SMK with Lapua Palma brass. I get 2605fps(11 ES) with an 18.5" barrel. I've shot all the way up to 44.7gr(2680fps) of Varget and stopped when I got a little more primer flow than I wanted. Obviously these are spicy loads, work your way up slowly in .3gr increments.
     
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    B_w.

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    Anyone loading for a 12 inch 308? Picked up a rem 700 sbr and wondering where to start. I have a lot of 185g juggernauts I would like to use up. Have varget, 4350, tac and 4895 in decent quantities. More limited on mr2000 and a few others I picked up for a 224 Valk build. Any suggestions?
     

    BuLLet

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    I want to load up 500 rounds of 168 SMK and maybe some RL15 I have laying around. I'm real low on Varget and want to save that for now. This is going to be just a basic load to use among all of my 308 bolt guns. Nothing worked up for a specific rifle. Just a good basic load to use across them all and have some fun with.

    I have new Winchester 308 brass from the 90's to use. Probably use WLR primers, but I do have Federal and CCI as well.

    Any suggestions on using the RL-15? Load data?

    Sierra lists 43.6 as max and 42 as an accuracy load.
     

    straightshooter1

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    I want to load up 500 rounds of 168 SMK and maybe some RL15 I have laying around. I'm real low on Varget and want to save that for now. This is going to be just a basic load to use among all of my 308 bolt guns. Nothing worked up for a specific rifle. Just a good basic load to use across them all and have some fun with.

    I have new Winchester 308 brass from the 90's to use. Probably use WLR primers, but I do have Federal and CCI as well.

    Any suggestions on using the RL-15? Load data?

    Sierra lists 43.6 as max and 42 as an accuracy load.

    Case capacity is a big issue when seeking suggestions as to what someone else is using. If you're using Winchester brass, it'll have substantially more volume than most others (like more than Federal's). Also, the case volume is affected by seating depth, so there's a big difference when seating to a COAL of 2.860" vs. a standard 2.800". And this is where my QuickLoad app would help me determine where to start with a different powder than I normally use. But my accuracy load may not even come close to working for you depending unless you were to load the cartridge exactly the same.

    For my accuracy load, I load my cartridge's COAL at 2.856" using IMR-4064 and close to that using Varget in Federal and Lapua cases. In order for me to get close to the same results with RL-15 pushing 168 SMK's, I'd keep the seating depth and start at ~45.0 grs. as my QL app indicates the same moderate pressure as with the other powders. But, I still wouldn't expect close to the same results as my other powders as I have no idea what the actual burn rate of my particular lot of RL-15 is until I make some initial chrono readings. Once I get those velocities, I can adjust the burn rate to give me a better idea where a good load might be for this powder.

    One way or another, you're going to have to just pick a starting point and do some load development.
     

    BuLLet

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    Thanks, straight...


    I'm looking to whip up some functional rounds with some powder I have on hand. Mostly for plinking with multiple 308 bolt guns. So, akin to a factory loading. Safe and functional across a large swath of rifles :)

    Gonna use COAL of 2.800

    Case capacity is a big issue when seeking suggestions as to what someone else is using. If you're using Winchester brass, it'll have substantially more volume than most others (like more than Federal's). Also, the case volume is affected by seating depth, so there's a big difference when seating to a COAL of 2.860" vs. a standard 2.800". And this is where my QuickLoad app would help me determine where to start with a different powder than I normally use. But my accuracy load may not even come close to working for you depending unless you were to load the cartridge exactly the same.

    For my accuracy load, I load my cartridge's COAL at 2.856" using IMR-4064 and close to that using Varget in Federal and Lapua cases. In order for me to get close to the same results with RL-15 pushing 168 SMK's, I'd keep the seating depth and start at ~45.0 grs. as my QL app indicates the same moderate pressure as with the other powders. But, I still wouldn't expect close to the same results as my other powders as I have no idea what the actual burn rate of my particular lot of RL-15 is until I make some initial chrono readings. Once I get those velocities, I can adjust the burn rate to give me a better idea where a good load might be for this powder.

    One way or another, you're going to have to just pick a starting point and do some load development.
     
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    straightshooter1

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    Thanks, straight...


    I'm looking to whip up some functional rounds with some powder I have on hand. Mostly for plinking with multiple 308 bolt guns. So, akin to a factory loading. Safe and functional across a large swath of rifles :)

    Gonna use COAL of 2.800

    In my hands for my guns and loading to a COAL of 2.800, I'd be comfortable starting at 43.5 grs of RL-15 in my Federal brass (trimmed to 2.007) with a volume of 55.9 grs. H2O as my QL app suggests the pressure somewhere around 50,500 psi (at 70°F). For you to have some safety assurance, it'd be a good idea to start somewhere less and work up. Since RL-15 is just a little faster powder than Varget and the load density somewhat close too, you should be able to find a good load relatively close to what you use with Varget. . . .???
     
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    BuLLet

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    My Varget loads are usually 41 or 43.5 depending :)

    I'll probably just go with the 42 grains Sierra publishes as 'accuracy' loading... or maybe a bit down from there 41 perhaps.

    In my hands for my guns and loading to a COAL of 2.800, I'd be comfortable starting at 43.5 grs of RL-15 in my Federal brass (trimmed to 2.007) with a volume of 55.9 grs. H2O as my QL app suggests the pressure somewhere around 50,500 psi (at 70°F). For you to have some safety assurance, it'd be a good idea to start somewhere less and work up. Since RL-15 is just a little faster powder than Varget and the load density somewhat close too, you should be able to find a good load relatively close to what you use with Varget. . . .???
     

    Guns&WhiteWater

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    I have 8 lbs of Benchmark as well.....

    Anyone using this?
    I have used Benchmark with the 168 MK’s. It meters like water out of my Harrell’s throw. My best result was with 42.0 grains using HSN brass, Win primers, seated 2.850”, velocity was 2534. This shot around 3/4 MOA using a low power scout scope on a factory Ruger Scout Rifle at 200 yards, for what it’s worth.

    You also inquired about Reloder 15 and 168’s MK’s. This same rifle shot between 43 and 44 grains about equally well with the same brass and CCI BR2’s, loaded to 2.835”. The edge went to the higher charge. Velocity with 44 grains averaged 2514 and was around 3/4 MOA at 100 yards. I called it good since the scout scope maxed out at 2.75x. This load was used for general plinking for awhile before I found a great deal on the 125 TNT’s and purchased 1000 of them.

    Also of note, this HSN brass holds the least amount of powder than my other 308 brass (Lapua, Winchester, L/C and L/C Match, and Nosler), so you should be able to go up in charge weights. Currently the brass is on 16 firings and still holding primers, so no regrets buying it for plinking.
     
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    BuLLet

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    Ended up going with Reloader 15, 41 grains. I'm @ 250 charged out of 500 at the moment... taking a break.

    New brass any way, so keep it lower powered for fire forming. :)
     

    otnot

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    Last week I finally got to start load development with the 169. It's really flat shooting at 600. I didn't have any dope for the first few shots and they were no where on the 36 inch paper using my dope for the 175. I had to drop my MOA down to 13.5 to get back on the paper. Hopefully this week it will get into the teens so I can get some chronograph data for this load.
     

    Snuby642

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    My sons 308 has about 2.83 max mag. I was disappointed also that they moved the ogive on that bullet forward by about 0.06 thousands, compared to the 168 smk.

    The problem is a tactical bolt gun with semiautomatic mag and throat dimensions.

    I have to remeasure everything with fire formed modified case and the 168, 165 and 169 bullets.

    If it were not for the fact that 20 inch ruger has hit 1/2 moa with a couple of loads I would see it burn in hell for all the hassle.

    Also the damn thing has an affinity for varget that at the moment pisses me off.

    I am one hard headed MFER. Lol
     

    straightshooter1

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    My sons 308 has about 2.83 max mag. I was disappointed also that they moved the ogive on that bullet forward by about 0.06 thousands, compared to the 168 smk.

    The problem is a tactical bolt gun with semiautomatic mag and throat dimensions.

    I have to remeasure everything with fire formed modified case and the 168, 165 and 169 bullets.

    If it were not for the fact that 20 inch ruger has hit 1/2 moa with a couple of loads I would see it burn in hell for all the hassle.

    Also the damn thing has an affinity for varget that at the moment pisses me off.

    I am one hard headed MFER. Lol
    Have you tried any AR-Comp?

    Varget has worked really well for me too. With it hard to come by, I tried some AR-Comp a while back and it worked so well (as good, if not better than Varget) that it's pretty much my go to powder. In addition to it's performance, I like that it's not as dirty as Varget. 🥴
     
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    Temper

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    AR Comp was awesome on my rifles. Both semi auto and bolt action 308. I've gone back to IMR4064 because it just works.
    I for the life of me can't find a load that shoots with IMR 4064 and 175 SMKs. I've gone from .02" off the lands all the way to .08" in ~.004 increments and nothing shoots better than .7MOA. I had one seating depth shoot around .5 MOA but it's too tight a window for me. Using Lapua Palma brass and Winchester SRP's and 43.3gr of IMR 4064. What's so weird is everything else being the same but with 44.1gr Varget the gun shoots in .3-.4's all day. Only things I haven't tried are swapping primer or lowering the charge a bit but I want to make it work with my current charge since it's gets me the same velocity as my Varget load. It's been frustrating.
     
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    straightshooter1

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    I for the life of me can't find a load that shoots with IMR 4064 and 175 SMKs. I've gone from .02" off the lands all the way to .08" in ~.004 increments and nothing shoots better than .7MOA. I had one seating depth shoot around .5 MOA but it's too tight a window for me. Using Lapua Palma brass and Winchester SRP's and 43.3gr of IMR 4064. What's so weird is everything else being the same but with 44.1gr Varget the gun shoots in .3-.4's all day. Only things I haven't tried are swapping primer or lowering the charge a bit but I want to make it work with my current charge since it's gets me the same velocity as my Varget load. It's been frustrating.
    I feel you should try lowering your charge a bit and to find a charge that does well. THEN make some adjustments to seating depth to tune that load for a tighter group. If you start with a seating depth well off your lands and seat deeper, your velocity should increase. . . .maybe to where you want it???

    In my gun, 42.5 grs of IMR-4064 using CCI 200's with a COAL of 2.863 did very well for me with the 175 SMK's from a medium sporter barrel.
     

    JMGlasgow

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    I run 42.1gr with 4064 and a 175smk. A little slow but it's accurate.

    43gr got me 2857fps with Lapua 167's from my new 26" Criterion, and 44.5gr got me 2903fps from the same barrel. No pressure signs.
     

    otnot

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    What COAL (if you don't mind me asking)?
    My gun is long throated also. To jam is 2.210 ogive with the 169 and a coal of 2.936. I always go by ogive since that's what contacts the lands first. But anyway, I've been experimenting with long jumps of .050 to .080 and that's why I'm at 2.869. I read a really interesting article about long jumps and instead of chasing the lands you find a seating depth that seems to start at .050 out from the lands. Yeah another rabbit hole. LOL


    My gun really likes Imr4064 and Varget but I'm stuck loading Imr4895 and for the life of me I can't make it shoot either. My 4064 charge was 42.3 with an average FPS of 2650 out of a 24 inch barrel. With an ogive of 2.180 and a coal of 2.840.

    Straigntshooter: The next time it gets above 0 I'm going to do a seating depth test out at 600 yards from 2.140 ogive in .005 increments to 2.185 ogive. I'll let you know what I find.
     
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    Temper

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    I feel you should try lowering your charge a bit and to find a charge that does well. THEN make some adjustments to seating depth to tune that load for a tighter group. If you start with a seating depth well off your lands and seat deeper, your velocity should increase. . . .maybe to where you want it???

    In my gun, 42.5 grs of IMR-4064 using CCI 200's with a COAL of 2.863 did very well for me with the 175 SMK's from a medium sporter barrel.
    The charge does well under the chrono and there's no pressure. My ES is 12 with 43.3gr of 4064. I have a lower "node" at 42.4 and about 80fps slower, if it doesn't shoot with that I'm getting rid of the powder. At some point I gotta cut losses and stop wasting projos.
     
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    straightshooter1

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    My gun is long throated also. To jam is 2.210 ogive with the 169 and a coal of 2.936. I always go by ogive since that's what contacts the lands first. But anyway, I've been experimenting with long jumps of .050 to .080 and that's why I'm at 2.869.
    Because everyone's chambers are different lengths, for the most part, the jump just doesn't tell anyone how the load relates to their own chamber. So, that's why I like to know the COAL's as it provides a better idea of what the very important seating depth is (even though bullets can have substantial differences in length).

    I read a really interesting article about long jumps and instead of chasing the lands you find a seating depth that seems to start at .050 out from the lands. Yeah another rabbit hole. LOL


    Yeah, that's an excellent article and I read it soon after it was published. I used to "chase the lands" and finally figured out I was better off just sticking to a seating depth that works well even though the land erodes. If I recall correctly, I shot ~1800 .308 rounds and the lands eroded someing like .030" and it was still shooting sub .5 MOA. That convinced me that it's not the "jump" that's such an issue, but the seating depth . . . just like seating depth is so important when tuning a load.

    My gun really likes Imr4064 and Varget but I'm stuck loading Imr4895 and for the life of me I can't make it shoot either. My 4064 charge was 42.3 with an average FPS of 2650 out of a 24 inch barrel. With an ogive of 2.180 and a coal of 2.840.
    I guess it just depends on what the barrel likes or doesn't like??? I've gotten good results with 44.0 gr H-4895 pushing 168 SMK's with a COAL of 2.860, but didn't find a load that worked well with the 175 SMK's for that powder. This powder worked great for the 169 SMK's.

    Straigntshooter: The next time it gets above 0 I'm going to do a seating depth test out at 600 yards from 2.140 ogive in .005 increments to 2.185 ogive. I'll let you know what I find.
    (y)(y)
     

    straightshooter1

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    AZ
    2.830 COAL. Alpha brass, Federal LR primers.
    WOW! o_O Very interesting as 44.5 gr of IMR-4064 fills a .308 case to 105.5% of capacity, which means your loads are being compressed and explains those high velocities you posted. And my QuickLoad app indicates pressures being quite high at around 67,500 psi. It's not a load I'd use in my gun. 🥴 It's surprising to me you're not getting pressure signs, though you might if you happen to use this load in summer heat. 🤷‍♂️
     
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    JMGlasgow

    Old Salt
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Apr 13, 2012
    3,291
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    Cheyenne, WY
    43gr with 167's. I went up to 44.5 with 155's.

    Neither of those loads were compressed. With 44.5gr the powder was at the shoulder/neck junction (never fired brass).
     
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