A good friend swears it is the same as CFE223, just without the copper eraser.
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Sounds like a cool gun. Ive never loaded any AA powder but have been eyeing it since its been available here and there. Best thing to do is grab some Sierra Matchkings and try it. Ive just started experimenting with TAC myself. Good velocity so far. Any idea if your chamber is 223, 556 or 223 wylde? What twist?
...from the Western Load Guide, circa 2014..
My Dillon swager works every time.
It's a good ball powder. Years ago I cranked out 2000 rounds of 55 FMJ ammo with it, and it all shot fine. It's on the fast side so it works well with 40-60 grain bullets.
Asking for a friend new to reloading and I’m not familiar with gas gun loading.
77gr bthp noslers
24.2 varget
2671 FPS out of a 14.5” barrel
Seems hot to me but maybe ok?
77gr bthp noslers
24.2 varget
2671 FPS out of a 14.5” barrel
Seems hot to me but maybe ok?
Every gun can be different as long as the brass looks good your all set I run 24 of varget with the 77s in a gas gun with no issues
Any of you loading 77 OTMs for a 16" gas gun? With everything being what it is I don't have much for powder choices. I have 8208XBR, CFE223, Benchmark, and Varget. Are any of these worth trying or should I wait until I can find a different powder?
I want a good balance between velocity and temp stability. This gun will get shot from negative Temps to 100F. CFE will likely give me the velocity I want but I have had poor accuracy with it in the past.
I want a good balance between velocity and temp stability. This gun will get shot from negative Temps to 100F. CFE will likely give me the velocity I want but I have had poor accuracy with it in the past.
8208 will give you the best temp stability, and is a good choice with 77s expect 2700ish FPS out of a 16”
Cfe223 is good too and gave me more speed than 8208, accuracy was good but needs to be loaded close to full case full to keep es/ed from getting too high. Also cfe will be temp sensitive.
8208 is your answer. Or sell it all to me.
Awesome thanks I'll give it a try. I haven't used 8208 in the .223 but it's my go to for the Grendel gas guns. If it works that would be awesome. I have been trying to get all of my guns shooting the same powders.. makes shopping easier.
Expect to find a load around 23.0-23.5gns of 8208 with a 77otm. Obviously work up to that, but 23.2gns is a known go-to load. Much like 24.0gns of varget and a 77smk.
Everything is trade off. You want high velocity? Your brass suffers. You want good balance?
using 77 Bergers, that would be like Benchmark from 21.7-22 grains, or N135 same thing, or another popular load that is a little higher velocity but not bad on brass is 23.5 N140. Many guys use 23.2 to 23.3 grains or so of XBR8208, or H4895 in same area. Those are higher velocity, brass won't last as long.
Temp stability is one of most overrated things in AR15's. Don't listen to me, go to Camp Perry and you will see SOOOOOO many guys using BALL Powders like 2460 and 2520 that are literally TERRIBLE temp stable. But those powders are very popular and dominate competition for years and years. Even Power Pro 2000 is there and popular. Very high velocity.
using 77 Bergers, that would be like Benchmark from 21.7-22 grains, or N135 same thing, or another popular load that is a little higher velocity but not bad on brass is 23.5 N140. Many guys use 23.2 to 23.3 grains or so of XBR8208, or H4895 in same area. Those are higher velocity, brass won't last as long.
Temp stability is one of most overrated things in AR15's. Don't listen to me, go to Camp Perry and you will see SOOOOOO many guys using BALL Powders like 2460 and 2520 that are literally TERRIBLE temp stable. But those powders are very popular and dominate competition for years and years. Even Power Pro 2000 is there and popular. Very high velocity.
I don't even do load development for 77's anymore. 23.4gr of 8208 seems to shoot well in any barrel capable of shooting well.
I’m at 23.6gr of 8208 under a 77gr TMK and even use it in a suppressed 10.3” AR
I shoot Hornady 75's with 23.0 grains H4895. LC Nato brass and Fed AR Match primers.
20 inch FN CHF barrel @ 2675fps.
Shoots great!
Not hard on my rifle or components. Consistent accuracy of 1 inch or less season in, season out. Even if i am not shooting good. No excuses.....
One could do extended string shooting in hot weather and trust the rifle will continue to fire un-relentlessly.
Reliable almost to a fault
Good behavior in all environments.
I have shot all the usual suspects with red box and green box. I could not get close to the velocities listed here with R15 or Varget. Even with extreme compression. XBR shot well also. I feel like it was being ran at higher pressure to get the same velocity. Seems i would get pressure spikes from time to time. (No go for me)
I have ran PP Varmint and PP 2000 a bit. Easy to get velocities way up high... Just inconsistent from one shooting session to the next for me. One target one day looked awesome! Another day or season and it looks like buck-shot!!
20 inch FN CHF barrel @ 2675fps.
Shoots great!
Not hard on my rifle or components. Consistent accuracy of 1 inch or less season in, season out. Even if i am not shooting good. No excuses.....
One could do extended string shooting in hot weather and trust the rifle will continue to fire un-relentlessly.
Reliable almost to a fault
Good behavior in all environments.
I have shot all the usual suspects with red box and green box. I could not get close to the velocities listed here with R15 or Varget. Even with extreme compression. XBR shot well also. I feel like it was being ran at higher pressure to get the same velocity. Seems i would get pressure spikes from time to time. (No go for me)
I have ran PP Varmint and PP 2000 a bit. Easy to get velocities way up high... Just inconsistent from one shooting session to the next for me. One target one day looked awesome! Another day or season and it looks like buck-shot!!
Here are my results from Thursday from a suppressed 10.5" bear creek bbl. Chrony was 5' from muzzle. One group with cci-450's, all else with cci-400's. Curious to see the 400 had higher velocity than the 450's. Shooting 77tmk from WW brass. I calculated SD and #Ke at the bottom of the page too.
Attachments
Anyone have experience with starline 556 brass. I generally use 77 smk with 23.0 8208, i get mild pressure at 23.2 and 23.4 in LC19 and this starline stuff is thicker and heavier. Just wondering if anyone has any experience.
Awesome thanks! That's faster than I anticipated.
I have a bunch of rounds loaded ready for testing for the 16". Perhaps I'll have to try a few in the 10.3" for giggles, I mean science.
Just waiting for some nicer weather.
Hello, yes, a lot, I have thousands. Here are some guidelines:
Starline 556 stamped brass is similar to Lapua, or Nammo Brass in terms of its case capacity. Starline 556 brass is a "middle weight" 223 brass that is in the ~96 grains per case (bare case, no primer) ballpark. This is similar to the many thousand Lapua and Nammo I have, which range from 94-98 grains, which is standard for 223 brass. Lighter brass is like some Federal versions, Hornady, and the lightest I found is NORMA, which is 90 grains per case, and has larger case capacity. I do think that Starline 556 brass has "slightly less" case capacity than your LC19 brass, and is probably 2-4 grains HEAVIER. Guessing like 95-97 grains versus the LC might be 91-93?
Now...
Starline 223 stamped brass is TOTALLY different than Starline 556 stamped brass. Starline 223 brass weighs from 101-103 grains and has the lowest case capacity of any 223 I have (many, many brands).
Starline 223 in your example, would shoot similar velocity to your 23 grains of XBR 8208, using probably 22 grains or so.
Starline 556 brass is currently my favorite brand of brass, along with Lapua and Nosler. Starline 556 brass should be in the "Ballpark" with book loads, while Starline 223 is about 1 grain less to get same result as book loads.
This is a rule of thumb when using these two.
Here is an example of carefully made rounds, with different brass brands. You can see 50 FPS difference with these brands, but Starline 223 would be more like over 100-150 FPS difference from lowest. Way higher pressure. (This was measured with 7 shot groups at 100 yards. 7 MOA means all 7 shots accounted for, 6 MOA means best 6/7 shots, and 5 MOA means best 5 of 7 shots considered)
Very detailed, i sincerely appreciate it.Hello, yes, a lot, I have thousands. Here are some guidelines:
Starline 556 stamped brass is similar to Lapua, or Nammo Brass in terms of its case capacity. Starline 556 brass is a "middle weight" 223 brass that is in the ~96 grains per case (bare case, no primer) ballpark. This is similar to the many thousand Lapua and Nammo I have, which range from 94-98 grains, which is standard for 223 brass. Lighter brass is like some Federal versions, Hornady, and the lightest I found is NORMA, which is 90 grains per case, and has larger case capacity. I do think that Starline 556 brass has "slightly less" case capacity than your LC19 brass, and is probably 2-4 grains HEAVIER. Guessing like 95-97 grains versus the LC might be 91-93?
Now...
Starline 223 stamped brass is TOTALLY different than Starline 556 stamped brass. Starline 223 brass weighs from 101-103 grains and has the lowest case capacity of any 223 I have (many, many brands).
Starline 223 in your example, would shoot similar velocity to your 23 grains of XBR 8208, using probably 22 grains or so.
Starline 556 brass is currently my favorite brand of brass, along with Lapua and Nosler. Starline 556 brass should be in the "Ballpark" with book loads, while Starline 223 is about 1 grain less to get same result as book loads.
This is a rule of thumb when using these two.
Here is an example of carefully made rounds, with different brass brands. You can see 50 FPS difference with these brands, but Starline 223 would be more like over 100-150 FPS difference from lowest. Way higher pressure. (This was measured with 7 shot groups at 100 yards. 7 MOA means all 7 shots accounted for, 6 MOA means best 6/7 shots, and 5 MOA means best 5 of 7 shots considered)
I hope this helps you.
Hello, yes, a lot, I have thousands. Here are some guidelines:
Starline 556 stamped brass is similar to Lapua, or Nammo Brass in terms of its case capacity. Starline 556 brass is a "middle weight" 223 brass that is in the ~96 grains per case (bare case, no primer) ballpark. This is similar to the many thousand Lapua and Nammo I have, which range from 94-98 grains, which is standard for 223 brass. Lighter brass is like some Federal versions, Hornady, and the lightest I found is NORMA, which is 90 grains per case, and has larger case capacity. I do think that Starline 556 brass has "slightly less" case capacity than your LC19 brass, and is probably 2-4 grains HEAVIER. Guessing like 95-97 grains versus the LC might be 91-93?
Now...
Starline 223 stamped brass is TOTALLY different than Starline 556 stamped brass. Starline 223 brass weighs from 101-103 grains and has the lowest case capacity of any 223 I have (many, many brands).
Starline 223 in your example, would shoot similar velocity to your 23 grains of XBR 8208, using probably 22 grains or so.
Starline 556 brass is currently my favorite brand of brass, along with Lapua and Nosler. Starline 556 brass should be in the "Ballpark" with book loads, while Starline 223 is about 1 grain less to get same result as book loads.
This is a rule of thumb when using these two.
Here is an example of carefully made rounds, with different brass brands. You can see 50 FPS difference with these brands, but Starline 223 would be more like over 100-150 FPS difference from lowest. Way higher pressure. (This was measured with 7 shot groups at 100 yards. 7 MOA means all 7 shots accounted for, 6 MOA means best 6/7 shots, and 5 MOA means best 5 of 7 shots considered)
I hope this helps you.
Interesting. The starline 556 brass will make good 223Ackley brass then as well.
23.6gr of 8202 inside a 1 x fired, annealed, LC case with a Rem 7.5 primer and no crimp on the 77gr TMK at 2.255" OAL
Avg: 2324
ES: 48
SD: 14.3
15rd group past the LabRadar out of a Colt 6945 sporting an SDN-6
I have seen folks do case capacity tests with fired brass vs. unfired brass. This is a bad idea.
Here is a link to Starline's website and their take on the different case capacities between 223 REM and 5.56 brass
Here is a link to Starline's website and their take on the different case capacities between 223 REM and 5.56 brass
Lets see, I have 2 different lots, total of about 6,000 Starline 5.56 brass (new) and I have 2 different lots of Starline 223 brass, for about 2000 total.
The 223 brass is all way, way less case capacity. The 2 have similarities, in terms of yes, the outside dimensions are very similar. But the comparison ends there. Johnny's reloading bench has same exact experience. Starline 556 and 223 brass is vastly different.
and yes, comparing fired brass capacity to new, is ridiculous.
....YMMV:
Barrel: ARP 16" SOCOM
Brass: JDF (Japanese Self Defense 1x fired)
Powder: W748
Primers: CCI 400
Control Ammo: M855 (3028 FPS avg)
Sierra 69 SMK @2.247" COAL
Sierra 77 SMK @2.247" COAL
Barrel: ARP 16" SOCOM
Brass: JDF (Japanese Self Defense 1x fired)
Powder: W748
Primers: CCI 400
Control Ammo: M855 (3028 FPS avg)
Sierra 69 SMK @2.247" COAL
| Grains | Avg FPS | Std Dev | ES | Group |
23.7 | 2764 | 28 | 75 | 1.294 |
24.4 | 2865 | 14 | 41 | 0.95 |
25.1 | 2956 | 16 | 48 | 0.976 |
25.5 | 2997 | 50 | 125 | 1.119 |
25.8 | 3069 | 56 | 152 | 1.2 |
Sierra 77 SMK @2.247" COAL
| Grains | Avg FPS | Std Dev | ES | Group |
22.6 | 2589 | 13 | 37 | 0.855 |
22.8 | 2610 | 18 | 45 | 0.689 |
23 | 2180 | 59 | 137 | |
23.2 | 2585 | 20 | 48 | |
23.4 | 2691 | 39 | 109 |
Picked up Midwest Powders N133 from American Reloading to load some 50-60gr AR loads
I loaded up 5rd each of Hornady 52 ELD in 0.5gr increments from 20-25gr went from book minimum to 1gr over book max.
New LC brass, 205 primers, 2.13" coal.
20-25gr was 2850-3354 out of my 20" Bartlein 1:7 4 groove WOA barrel.
Definitely preferred the max charges which showed zero pressure at 25gr....primers look great, case heads look great...
24.0 - SD9 - 3189
24.5 - SD8 - 3265
25.0 - SD11 - 3354
Just wanted to find area to work and look for pressure. Accuracy was looking good at 100yd
Gonna do OCW now with 52g and 55gr SMK in 24.0 - 25.5gr range with the 1xLC.
I loaded up 5rd each of Hornady 52 ELD in 0.5gr increments from 20-25gr went from book minimum to 1gr over book max.
New LC brass, 205 primers, 2.13" coal.
20-25gr was 2850-3354 out of my 20" Bartlein 1:7 4 groove WOA barrel.
Definitely preferred the max charges which showed zero pressure at 25gr....primers look great, case heads look great...
24.0 - SD9 - 3189
24.5 - SD8 - 3265
25.0 - SD11 - 3354
Just wanted to find area to work and look for pressure. Accuracy was looking good at 100yd
Gonna do OCW now with 52g and 55gr SMK in 24.0 - 25.5gr range with the 1xLC.
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Just got back from shooting this N133/52SMK OCW and its shot great. Excellent accuracy and velocity.
20" White Oak Precision
Bartlein 4G 1:7
223 Wylde
20" White Oak Precision
Bartlein 4G 1:7
223 Wylde
Brass: Lapua 223 Match
Powder: 8208 XBR @ 23.3 gr.
Bullet: Berger 77 OTM
Primer: CCI BR4
Vel. - 2,666
SD - 10.2
First test group came in at .690 MOA, and subsequently produced 3 sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups. I’ll try and include a few pics.
Barrel is a 15.1” 1:7 mid-gas Douglas spun up by Frank at Compass Lake with their CLE chamber. Colt BCG.
A friend invited me to a DMR match, and having not shot a match and getting out of reloading since 2019 it was a scramble to get things ready.
A buddy hooked me up with 200 new Lapua cases, and the Berger’s. Another had the 8208 XBR, and I got lucky on the BR4’s local.
I trusted a friend I’ve shot with for years heavily on the initial load of 23.3 grains, and I believe they were loaded to 2.255” OAL approx. I have the CBTO written down somewhere I’ll find later. First 5 shots were .690 MOA, no pressure signs on the brass. A few more test groups and we just went with it on the subsequent 180 rounds for the match.
I do know he used a light crimp also.
Now comes the question segment. I used a Hornady comparator and got a shoulder measurement over a pieces of 1.4560 and then fired shoulder of 1.4620. So it’s growing .006” in my chamber.
In my old PRS rifle I always FL sized with .002”shoulder bump. What would everyone suggest in this instance? I was thinking.004” bump to be safe, or should I go back to the original virgin brass shoulder length and size .006”? Is this working the brass too much? I know brass life with a AR is going to be terrible. Long term I’ll try and source some stat line 5.56, but short term the Lapua was an overly nice means to an end.
I plan to anneal them, as in always did with bolt guns. Trim if necessary.
By no means claiming that it’s magical, but this is Magnetospeed data from 3 different factory loaded 77’s, including 77 TMK. Well, one pic cause three seemed excessive. Brass from the 2,600 load looks absolutely fine.
.003-.004 bump is perfect. If you keep your chamber clean all the time .003 would be preferred.
2,660fps + "could be" too hot out of a 15 inch barrel. I suppose it "could be" that your barrel is very special and is just plain fast.
@OzzyO20 I’m running the same load in the same barrel, with the same chamber. It’s in the upper end of what I would say is acceptable pressure wise for that chamber, but still ok. My velocity is within about 20FPS of yours. Shoots great and the brass doesn’t seem too bad. Flat primers, but ejector swipes are light to non-existent. I swapped to an LMT enhanced bolt carrier and an H3 buffer, and that seemed to help the brass come out in better condition.
For the record, IMI 77gr Razor core out of the same barrel seems a touch hotter and the brass looks worse.
The gas port on that barrel is WAY too big, so if you aren’t running an adjustable gas block or something like that, you’re going to have issues. It’s a 0.82” gas port. I’m running a BRT Gas tube with a 0.76” port, so the gun will run both suppressed and Unsuppressed.
For the record, IMI 77gr Razor core out of the same barrel seems a touch hotter and the brass looks worse.
The gas port on that barrel is WAY too big, so if you aren’t running an adjustable gas block or something like that, you’re going to have issues. It’s a 0.82” gas port. I’m running a BRT Gas tube with a 0.76” port, so the gun will run both suppressed and Unsuppressed.
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@Desert_Racer Man I have some of that IMI 77 razor core that is just absolutely insanely over loaded. Tried it in a 18” rifle gas gun and a 10.3” carbine gas gun. Way too dangerous to run in anything.
I emailed IMI and they basically said ‘our quality control said that lot is fine’ so now it’s just sitting in a safe till I figure out a safe way to dispose of it.
As for the H3, maybe something to look into. I had the gas port drilled way under spec cause It stays suppressed and it shoots super smooth with a H2.
....I had the same questions and was pointed to this test done by Johnny's Reloading Bench....interesting results ;-)
...in Vid #11 of the series he validates the load @200M...
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I tested the 70 RDF extensively in my precision Bartlein AR when they came out and they shot horrible. I wasn't the only one, there was a long 70rdf thread around here where we posted all our testing. Lots of powders, seating depths, etc. Didn't even compare to 77smk...
I've never shot the 77rdf in an AR but was able to get them shooting in my 26" TL3 bolt gun
Yes. Don't waste your time, there's a reason RDF is said to mean Random Damn Flyer.
For every sub moa group I had the next one would be 3 moa, for every .5" four shots the fifth would be 2" away. It was so frustrating to catch glimpses of great potential but never get any consistency. The 77's shot better than the 70's on average, and at distance the BC seemed close except every couple rounds a bullet would sail one county over from the target. 77's are mag length compatible too.
I kind of figured that. My experience with Noslers hasn't been great but I have had some luck with the 175 gr Custom Comps in 308. I always end up back with Sierra though. Seem more consistent than Hornady or Nosler stuff. Marketing and hype is easy to fall for sometimes. Although I have heard some people have lucl with the RDFs. If I see a box of 100 on sale I might give them a try but thats it.
As long as your happy with the brass wear and it performs in hot weather should be good. Is a touch on the hot side but not a big deal.
For a bulk plinking load should I go 55gr or 62? I'm leaning towards 62 for the slight edge in BC but I don't think it makes a ton of difference. I've never loaded anything in 223 light than 75gr. Suggestions for powder? I would like something that cleans up easy.
I would just go with the RMR 69gr bthp. $.14 a bullet shoots way better than the bull 55gr or 62gr stuff
As for powder I like TAC or 2520
14.3 cents per bullet if you buy 30,000..... 15.1cents if you buy 1000
You want extremely accurate bullets at the price of bulk plinking trash?? Isnt a better deal out there than American Reloading's 55 SMK's @ 13.2cents per bullet per 500....And they shoot lights out too. Im loading them with bulk military powder from American reloading as well.... They have 8lb jugs of powder, free shipping and free hazmat, same goes for primers... Hard to beat for plinking ammo that is very accurate. Want to step it up, they have 69 SMK for 13.9 cents per bullet per 500... Ive been shooting these for years from them, some are mixed lots, some are pulls, but the target cant tell for me.
Here's some recent load development in my WOA Bartlein 20" 1-7 AR with American Reloading powder (N133) and their 52SMK....
Thank for that, wasn’t aware those exsisted! Also looks like rmr raised prices since I last bought
Padom, try this one next from American Reloading
MP 540 American Reloading
That is the stick powder, that the website says is for 308. But in 223, its similar to N140, and great.
MP 540 American Reloading
That is the stick powder, that the website says is for 308. But in 223, its similar to N140, and great.
I may actually have that, I'll have to check..I have one of their 308 powders I haven't opened...
